Backlash Copied Damage Affected By Battlespirit

Nevidyra

On live, Battlespirit does not affect the maximum copied damage Backlash (and morphs).

On PTS, when dueling, myself and others have noticed that the maximum copied damage of Backlash and the morphs is now affected by Battlespirit. Is this intentional? It's taken a nice buff for Plars in PvP and effectively made the skill redundant outside of PvE, again.

Nevidyra

Here are the current numbers.

Live, inside of Cyrodiil with Battlespirit (31k Magicka):



PTS, unbuffed, with no Battlespirit:




PTS, unbuffed, with Battlespirit:

tsaescishoeshiner

Certainly a nerf, but it was also buffed on PTS to copy over 50% of your damage, compared to 20% on live.

In practice, that possibly makes it more useful for certain tanky builds, since they can hit the damage cap more consistently.

For higher damage builds, this also makes it more effective to recast the skill before 6 seconds for on-demand burst.

I hadn't noticed the skill seeming overpowered on live? But it certainly would be with the 50% damage cap, so maybe that overall buff is what's leading the PvP nerf.

kojou

How does this compare that to what Shalks or Blaskbones hits for (AoE that doesn't require copied damage) in 3 seconds on a similarly equipped character?

gariondavey

It is less, obviously. Because warden and necro are classes that cost extra

Jameson18

gariondavey wrote: »

It is less, obviously. Because warden and necro are classes that cost extra

For who?

gariondavey

Jameson18 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

It is less, obviously. Because warden and necro are classes that cost extra

For who?

They don't come in the base game.

JobooAGS

Did you test real numbers on a dummy and on a player?

Amerises

It's now based on SD, not magika. Switch your bar around, use kilt and slimecraw medium, and itll.be a buff, and easier to max out damage.

Amerises

And duel wield if you're not for more SD

Nevidyra

Amerises wrote: »

It's now based on SD, not magika. Switch your bar around, use kilt and slimecraw medium, and itll.be a buff, and easier to max out damage.

That's not the point of the post. Please read it. It's about the tooltip being halved by battlespirit, not the scaling. This is not a post that pertains to PvE, either.

ExistingRug61

Honestly, I don’t know why the maximum value shouldn’t be affected by battle spirit.

Several patches ago backlash damage was affected by battle spirit, which was a problem because it effectively applied battle spirit to backlash twice (once to the damage building backlash, then to the actual backlash damage itself). This was a problem and was fixed but at that point the backlash cap was still unaffected by battlespirit. At the time this wasn’t really an issue because of how hard it was to fill backlash at 20%, but now that is no longer the case, so it makes sense that it should apply.

If battle spirit applying to backlash means backlash is too weak, then that’s an issue with the scaling of the skill versus other delayed burst skills. Relying on an exception of no battle spirit, which effectively more doubles backlash’s relative strength to other skills compared to how they compare in pve, is not the way to fix that in my opinion.

Sanguinor2

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Honestly, I don’t know why the maximum value shouldn’t be affected by battle spirit.

Several patches ago backlash damage was affected by battle spirit, which was a problem because it effectively applied battle spirit to backlash twice (once to the damage building backlash, then to the actual backlash damage itself). This was a problem and was fixed but at that point the backlash cap was still unaffected by battlespirit. At the time this wasn’t really an issue because of how hard it was to fill backlash at 20%, but now that is no longer the case, so it makes sense that it should apply.

If battle spirit applying to backlash means backlash is too weak, then that’s an issue with the scaling of the skill versus other delayed burst skills. Relying on an exception of no battle spirit, which effectively more doubles backlash’s relative strength to other skills compared to how they compare in pve, is not the way to fix that in my opinion.

Here´s the thing: With equal stats and buffs with battle spirit applied to purifying light it has a lower tooltip than curse, shalks and blastbones while taking twice as long to go off and actually requiring you to do something to reach the damage cap. What this translates to is that in the 6 seconds it takes for one purifying light to go off you can get hit by 2 blastbones, shalks or curses of which even one hits harder than purifying light nevermind the two casts you can potentionally get hit by.

Nevidyra

JobooAGS wrote: »

Did you test real numbers on a dummy and on a player?

It has been hitting for less on the latest PTS patch compared to previous PTS patches on players. Dummy parses are unaffected, as Battle Spirit doesn't apply to PvE. This post is PvP oriented.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Honestly, I don’t know why the maximum value shouldn’t be affected by battle spirit.

Several patches ago backlash damage was affected by battle spirit, which was a problem because it effectively applied battle spirit to backlash twice (once to the damage building backlash, then to the actual backlash damage itself). This was a problem and was fixed but at that point the backlash cap was still unaffected by battlespirit. At the time this wasn’t really an issue because of how hard it was to fill backlash at 20%, but now that is no longer the case, so it makes sense that it should apply.

If battle spirit applying to backlash means backlash is too weak, then that’s an issue with the scaling of the skill versus other delayed burst skills. Relying on an exception of no battle spirit, which effectively more doubles backlash’s relative strength to other skills compared to how they compare in pve, is not the way to fix that in my opinion.

Blastbones on a well-built Magicka Necromancer will be critting for 12-17k on other players in Cyrodiil. Sure, you can block it, but good ones will be using hard CC's and working them into a combo so you're stunned when you take that massive damage hit.

As it stands, Backlash (and morphs) on live will crit someone for 6k, on a skill that takes 6s to fire, is hard to stack fully, and can be purged. In earlier patches of the PTS, it was of comparable strength to Blastbones. In this latest patch, it's back to hitting comparably as it does on live.

ZOS intended the changes to be a direct buff to the skill, and judging from discussions in Discords, players have speculated that the maximum copied damage being halved by Battlespirit isn't intentional. We're still waiting to hear back from ZOS on the matter and if it's intentional or not.

Backlash, as it stands on the current PTS patch, is still a very bad delayed burst.

@ZOS_GinaBruno some clarification from the Devs would be appreciated.

ExistingRug61

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Honestly, I don’t know why the maximum value shouldn’t be affected by battle spirit.

Several patches ago backlash damage was affected by battle spirit, which was a problem because it effectively applied battle spirit to backlash twice (once to the damage building backlash, then to the actual backlash damage itself). This was a problem and was fixed but at that point the backlash cap was still unaffected by battlespirit. At the time this wasn’t really an issue because of how hard it was to fill backlash at 20%, but now that is no longer the case, so it makes sense that it should apply.

If battle spirit applying to backlash means backlash is too weak, then that’s an issue with the scaling of the skill versus other delayed burst skills. Relying on an exception of no battle spirit, which effectively more doubles backlash’s relative strength to other skills compared to how they compare in pve, is not the way to fix that in my opinion.

Here´s the thing: With equal stats and buffs with battle spirit applied to purifying light it has a lower tooltip than curse, shalks and blastbones while taking twice as long to go off and actually requiring you to do something to reach the damage cap. What this translates to is that in the 6 seconds it takes for one purifying light to go off you can get hit by 2 blastbones, shalks or curses of which even one hits harder than purifying light nevermind the two casts you can potentionally get hit by.

I’m not denying that this is the case and that the skill may have issues. My point is that in my opinion keeping an inconsistency with battle spirit doesn’t seem like the best way to address it.

Why? All of this points you make comparing to shalks and blastbones: they are equally true in PvE and PvP. Relying on an exception for battlespirit may make it competitive in PvP, but does nothing for it in PvE. So by having the exception you are dooming the skill to always be sub par when compared to shalks and blastbones in PvE. Because if you keep the exception and this makes backlash about equal to shalks and blastbones in PvP, then ithis means it is only half as strong as shalks and blastbones in PvE.

Hence my preference to not have the battlespirit exception. And if the skill is then judged to be too weak, then buff the scaling. In doing so making it better for PvP AND PvE, instead of just PvP.

gariondavey

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin
Please do not doubly apply battlespirit to potl/pl
The buff had so many Templars excited for pvp. Stamplars especially, as potl is so so so weak.
But now it is looking like it will be weak again.
Please reconsider.

Sanguinor2

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

I’m not denying that this is the case and that the skill may have issues. My point is that in my opinion keeping an inconsistency with battle spirit doesn’t seem like the best way to address it.

Why? All of this points you make comparing to shalks and blastbones: they are equally true in PvE and PvP. Relying on an exception for battlespirit may make it competitive in PvP, but does nothing for it in PvE. So by having the exception you are dooming the skill to always be sub par when compared to shalks and blastbones in PvE. Because if you keep the exception and this makes backlash about equal to shalks and blastbones in PvP, then ithis means it is only half as strong as shalks and blastbones in PvE.

Hence my preference to not have the battlespirit exception. And if the skill is then judged to be too weak, then buff the scaling. In doing so making it better for PvP AND PvE, instead of just PvP.

While you arent wrong, realistically that is not something that will be happening this pts cycle even if zos had any intention for it. What is realistic is Zos reverting it double dipping into battlespirit. I myself would rather have seen purifying light completely reworked since with its 6 second duration and need to continuously damage your target it wont reach the effective strength of shalks/blastbones unless its damage becomes massively overtuned.

Jameson18

Isn't hitting it with Battle Spirit a double hit?

Your damage is already getting cut in half on the way in. So it's going to pop off for half, of half, of half of the damage? Not counting the player's mitigation/resist stats?

Meh.

It will still be on the ever growing 'useless skill' list.

Stx

I wish they would communicate on stuff like this. They intentionally raised the cap by making it scale from spell damage so you would think they wouldn't introduce a change like this.

techprince

This must be a bug. Damage done shouldn't get cut in half. Damage received does.

West93

Could it be that it was effected on live server already but not shown on tool tip?

Currently on live server in most pvp situations it does 2-3k damage ticks on average, sometimes higher if it crits, basically unworthy slotting it.

gariondavey

Stx wrote: »

I wish they would communicate on stuff like this. They intentionally raised the cap by making it scale from spell damage so you would think they wouldn't introduce a change like this.

I agree

techprince wrote: »

This must be a bug. Damage done shouldn't get cut in half. Damage received does.

People have reported it hitting less on players on the pts this iteration vs previous ones.