Frost damage for Warden

WrathOfInnos

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

now this will really mess with you

standard build, siroria, sorrow, kilt, pc slimecraw

changed fissure to sub assault

and finally siroria & rele

@Tannus15 That’s clever. Sub Assault is obviously the better morph, with double the damage per cast, but I never thought it would outperform Deep Fissure for a Magicka build.

It makes perfect sense though, you lost about 4k DPS from SA vs DF, but gained a GCD every 6s that could be used for a ~36k spammable (or 6k DPS gain, for a net increase of 2k). I’m also guessing Warden sustain issues disappear when you use a stamina skill every 6s. And with more spammables, Brittle uptimes should be great using SA with the new Frost Reach.

Couldn't you bump the damage more via using diamond's victory?

A hybrid set like DV seems like a good idea, but I’m not sure what melee skill you’d use to proc the ranged buff. Usually Deep Fissure covers it, but Sub Assault is not frequent enough. Maybe something like Bahsei + Acuity would be better? Not a lot of options for a hybrid crit set, but it would be good to get those SA crits up.

ESO_Nightingale

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

now this will really mess with you

standard build, siroria, sorrow, kilt, pc slimecraw

changed fissure to sub assault

and finally siroria & rele

@Tannus15 That’s clever. Sub Assault is obviously the better morph, with double the damage per cast, but I never thought it would outperform Deep Fissure for a Magicka build.

It makes perfect sense though, you lost about 4k DPS from SA vs DF, but gained a GCD every 6s that could be used for a ~36k spammable (or 6k DPS gain, for a net increase of 2k). I’m also guessing Warden sustain issues disappear when you use a stamina skill every 6s. And with more spammables, Brittle uptimes should be great using SA with the new Frost Reach.

Couldn't you bump the damage more via using diamond's victory?

A hybrid set like DV seems like a good idea, but I’m not sure what melee skill you’d use to proc the ranged buff. Usually Deep Fissure covers it, but Sub Assault is not frequent enough. Maybe something like Bahsei + Acuity would be better? Not a lot of options for a hybrid crit set, but it would be good to get those SA crits up.

oh yeah i forgot about sub assault and the proc condition of DV hmm.

RandomKodiak

I am not a very good parser and even worse on Magic toons but for @ESO_Nightingale and @Tannus15 Someone might want to try this build. It allows for the masters and Kilt, gives 2 overall crit and an extra overall damage so nothing really gets left out.




I'm not a good enough parser to really tell how it's doing but I can't hit 81k on live with my frostie so would be curious how someone who is better could do with it. Still no minor force but not too bad I think



Also had low crit range on top three skills and sub assault so could have done better myself.

RandomKodiak

Oh and did Breton because that's what my live toon is ^^

Solariken

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Oh man, ice wraiths and ice spikes instead of bugs! What a huge miss by ZOS

unfortunately the problem therein lies with the initial design of the class, that's not something that can change though. damage types can, however.

It's not impossible to change. DKs saw a big change to class skill aesthetics with the Stone Fist skill becoming a big AOE smash, and then firing off three molten rock chunks one at a time. Sorcs had a similar thing with Bound Armaments, and then Crystal Weapon. So it's not too wild to hope ZOS might create a unique ice spike animation variant for one of the Shalk morphs.

The more I think of it, the more I like it too. I'm glad we have a spammable option now, but it's still a frost staff spammable and not a proper class spammable. So if I want to "play my way" and be a frost mage with a frozen greatsword... it ain't much use.

that doesn't work for animal companions though. warden is fauna/flora and frost and deep fissure specifically is in animal companions. it so it needs to have an actual animal elements to it, so keeping the shalks is the best way to do that, just changing the firey looking effects, sounds and damage type to frost. something like an ice spike could be on a reworked crystallised slab or frozen retreat though.

Why don't you think Ice Wraiths fit the flora/fauna theme of the class line?

ESO_Nightingale

Solariken wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Oh man, ice wraiths and ice spikes instead of bugs! What a huge miss by ZOS

unfortunately the problem therein lies with the initial design of the class, that's not something that can change though. damage types can, however.

It's not impossible to change. DKs saw a big change to class skill aesthetics with the Stone Fist skill becoming a big AOE smash, and then firing off three molten rock chunks one at a time. Sorcs had a similar thing with Bound Armaments, and then Crystal Weapon. So it's not too wild to hope ZOS might create a unique ice spike animation variant for one of the Shalk morphs.

The more I think of it, the more I like it too. I'm glad we have a spammable option now, but it's still a frost staff spammable and not a proper class spammable. So if I want to "play my way" and be a frost mage with a frozen greatsword... it ain't much use.

that doesn't work for animal companions though. warden is fauna/flora and frost and deep fissure specifically is in animal companions. it so it needs to have an actual animal elements to it, so keeping the shalks is the best way to do that, just changing the firey looking effects, sounds and damage type to frost. something like an ice spike could be on a reworked crystallised slab or frozen retreat though.

Why don't you think Ice Wraiths fit the flora/fauna theme of the class line?

ice wraiths do, but ice spikes don't fit on animal companions.

Tannus15

RandomKodiak wrote: »

I am not a very good parser and even worse on Magic toons but for @ESO_Nightingale and @Tannus15 Someone might want to try this build. It allows for the masters and Kilt, gives 2 overall crit and an extra overall damage so nothing really gets left out.




I'm not a good enough parser to really tell how it's doing but I can't hit 81k on live with my frostie so would be curious how someone who is better could do with it. Still no minor force but not too bad I think



Also had low crit range on top three skills and sub assault so could have done better myself.

solid idea. some quick parse monkey thoughts:

if you swap the hat for slimecraw you get more crit (it has a special 1pc crit that is bigger than normal)
the 21m gives you minor berserk, so bird of prey isn't helpful on it other than the animal % damage increase passive

RandomKodiak

solid idea. some quick parse monkey thoughts:

if you swap the hat for slimecraw you get more crit (it has a special 1pc crit that is bigger than normal)
the 21m gives you minor berserk, so bird of prey isn't helpful on it other than the animal % damage increase passive

Yeah thought about that after on the slimecraw forgot it is overall as well and yes boP was just there for the passive. I have shakey hands and if I added any more dots or Trap I'd screw up the rotation hence why I was hoping one of you better parsers would try it

RandomKodiak

And now that I think about it with the changes you could put a FG skill there for an extra 1% on both bars

Tannus15

@RandomKodiak it works. I went with 3 medium armour assassin's the up the crit damage.


parses
maelstrom inferno backbar

dammit, i forgot i had a frost enchant on my backbar on this one. but i cbf redoing the parse, so whatever.

maelstrom frost backbar

frost backbar has standard berserker enchant

build

Tannus15

If i think of it later i might swap outt he assassin's with something with minor slayer and see how that compares

WrathOfInnos

Tannus15 wrote: »

If i think of it later i might swap outt he assassin's with something with minor slayer and see how that compares

@Tannus15 Yep, exactly. 3 FGD or 3 IA are your best options. You might enjoy this thread if you haven’t seen it already.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7330819#Comment_7330819

Trixterion

Tannus15 wrote: »

If i think of it later i might swap outt he assassin's with something with minor slayer and see how that compares

Can a Khajit be a better choice since you are running some stamina skills and have decent crit overall?

RandomKodiak

Trixterion wrote: »

Can a Khajit be a better choice since you are running some stamina skills and have decent crit overall?

Khajiit, High elves and Dark Elves all about 1% of each other for damage so pick the one you like best

WrathOfInnos

@Tannus15 I tried Subterranean Assault on Brittle Magden in vRG HM. Seemed pretty good tbh. Very similar damage to Deep Fissure, and much better sustain. Tried Force Pulse and Cliff Racer as spammables (I usually do full DoT rotation, but can't do that with SA), I imagine the build will be better when we have Frost Reach as a spammable.

The interesting thing was that it made Bahsei's Mania work better. I didn't need Netch active 100% of the time, so I could use it selectively to balance Magicka while never running out or needing to heavy attack.

ESO_Nightingale

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Tannus15 I tried Subterranean Assault on Brittle Magden in vRG HM. Seemed pretty good tbh. Very similar damage to Deep Fissure, and much better sustain. Tried Force Pulse and Cliff Racer as spammables (I usually do full DoT rotation, but can't do that with SA), I imagine the build will be better when we have Frost Reach as a spammable.

The interesting thing was that it made Bahsei's Mania work better. I didn't need Netch active 100% of the time, so I could use it selectively to balance Magicka while never running out or needing to heavy attack.

That is mad lol

Trixterion

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Tannus15 I tried Subterranean Assault on Brittle Magden in vRG HM. Seemed pretty good tbh. Very similar damage to Deep Fissure, and much better sustain. Tried Force Pulse and Cliff Racer as spammables (I usually do full DoT rotation, but can't do that with SA), I imagine the build will be better when we have Frost Reach as a spammable.

The interesting thing was that it made Bahsei's Mania work better. I didn't need Netch active 100% of the time, so I could use it selectively to balance Magicka while never running out or needing to heavy attack.

It's funny how Breton allows to sit above 50% magica even without Blue Betty, moreover it allows to sustain without synergies in crappie groups in 4-man content

ESO_Nightingale

Trixterion wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Tannus15 I tried Subterranean Assault on Brittle Magden in vRG HM. Seemed pretty good tbh. Very similar damage to Deep Fissure, and much better sustain. Tried Force Pulse and Cliff Racer as spammables (I usually do full DoT rotation, but can't do that with SA), I imagine the build will be better when we have Frost Reach as a spammable.

The interesting thing was that it made Bahsei's Mania work better. I didn't need Netch active 100% of the time, so I could use it selectively to balance Magicka while never running out or needing to heavy attack.

It's funny how Breton allows to sit above 50% magica even without Blue Betty, moreover it allows to sustain without synergies in crappie groups in 4-man content

I think he's a khajiit

WrathOfInnos

Trixterion wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Tannus15 I tried Subterranean Assault on Brittle Magden in vRG HM. Seemed pretty good tbh. Very similar damage to Deep Fissure, and much better sustain. Tried Force Pulse and Cliff Racer as spammables (I usually do full DoT rotation, but can't do that with SA), I imagine the build will be better when we have Frost Reach as a spammable.

The interesting thing was that it made Bahsei's Mania work better. I didn't need Netch active 100% of the time, so I could use it selectively to balance Magicka while never running out or needing to heavy attack.

It's funny how Breton allows to sit above 50% magica even without Blue Betty, moreover it allows to sustain without synergies in crappie groups in 4-man content

Unfortunately that means Breton cannot use the best DPS set in the game effectively. That character used to be a Breton, but I had to change it to Khajiit to do competitive damage. Altmer and Dunmer are also fine, but even the small amount of recovery on Khajiit helps with poor Warden sustain. I wish Altmer still had their recovery passive...

Trixterion

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Tannus15 I tried Subterranean Assault on Brittle Magden in vRG HM. Seemed pretty good tbh. Very similar damage to Deep Fissure, and much better sustain. Tried Force Pulse and Cliff Racer as spammables (I usually do full DoT rotation, but can't do that with SA), I imagine the build will be better when we have Frost Reach as a spammable.

The interesting thing was that it made Bahsei's Mania work better. I didn't need Netch active 100% of the time, so I could use it selectively to balance Magicka while never running out or needing to heavy attack.

It's funny how Breton allows to sit above 50% magica even without Blue Betty, moreover it allows to sustain without synergies in crappie groups in 4-man content

Unfortunately that means Breton cannot use the best DPS set in the game effectively. That character used to be a Breton, but I had to change it to Khajiit to do competitive damage. Altmer and Dunmer are also fine, but even the small amount of recovery on Khajiit helps with poor Warden sustain. I wish Altmer still had their recovery passive...

Can you explain me this:
Magdens in particular have the highest damage modifiers with only one exception - Frostdens have even higher modifier for frost(but this is the whole reason this discussion was created); so if extra 15% damage dealt is an additive bonus, that would mean Wardens benefit the least out of it(~8% extra dps, not the whole 15% increase). I understand that the whole hype around this set only exists because there's no such thing that could be done so easily as maintaining your mana as low as possible and all you get as a reward for such dumbness is extra 15% damage done and everyone naturally has bad sustain so that shouldn't be a problem. But why would Warden run this set? We get the least out of it among all classes

WrathOfInnos

Trixterion wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Tannus15 I tried Subterranean Assault on Brittle Magden in vRG HM. Seemed pretty good tbh. Very similar damage to Deep Fissure, and much better sustain. Tried Force Pulse and Cliff Racer as spammables (I usually do full DoT rotation, but can't do that with SA), I imagine the build will be better when we have Frost Reach as a spammable.

The interesting thing was that it made Bahsei's Mania work better. I didn't need Netch active 100% of the time, so I could use it selectively to balance Magicka while never running out or needing to heavy attack.

It's funny how Breton allows to sit above 50% magica even without Blue Betty, moreover it allows to sustain without synergies in crappie groups in 4-man content

Unfortunately that means Breton cannot use the best DPS set in the game effectively. That character used to be a Breton, but I had to change it to Khajiit to do competitive damage. Altmer and Dunmer are also fine, but even the small amount of recovery on Khajiit helps with poor Warden sustain. I wish Altmer still had their recovery passive...

Can you explain me this:
Magdens in particular have the highest damage modifiers with only one exception - Frostdens have even higher modifier for frost(but this is the whole reason this discussion was created); so if extra 15% damage dealt is an additive bonus, that would mean Wardens benefit the least out of it(~8% extra dps, not the whole 15% increase). I understand that the whole hype around this set only exists because there's no such thing that could be done so easily as maintaining your mana as low as possible and all you get as a reward for such dumbness is extra 15% damage done and everyone naturally has bad sustain so that shouldn't be a problem. But why would Warden run this set? We get the least out of it among all classes

You’re correct that warden gets less from Bahsei than other classes, but it still beats any other set. You don’t really even need low Magicka for it to be the best option, that just makes it better once you’ve decided to wear the set. For example, on warden specifically, Perfect Bahsei beats Mother’s Sorrow at 86% Magicka, and Perf False Gods at 93% Magicka. Perf Siroria is the only set that can compete, and it only works well for stationary fights. Even with 100% uptime on 10 Siroria stacks, Bahsei will beat it with average Magicka under 53%, and no restrictions on movement.

Trixterion

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Tannus15 I tried Subterranean Assault on Brittle Magden in vRG HM. Seemed pretty good tbh. Very similar damage to Deep Fissure, and much better sustain. Tried Force Pulse and Cliff Racer as spammables (I usually do full DoT rotation, but can't do that with SA), I imagine the build will be better when we have Frost Reach as a spammable.

The interesting thing was that it made Bahsei's Mania work better. I didn't need Netch active 100% of the time, so I could use it selectively to balance Magicka while never running out or needing to heavy attack.

It's funny how Breton allows to sit above 50% magica even without Blue Betty, moreover it allows to sustain without synergies in crappie groups in 4-man content

Unfortunately that means Breton cannot use the best DPS set in the game effectively. That character used to be a Breton, but I had to change it to Khajiit to do competitive damage. Altmer and Dunmer are also fine, but even the small amount of recovery on Khajiit helps with poor Warden sustain. I wish Altmer still had their recovery passive...

Can you explain me this:
Magdens in particular have the highest damage modifiers with only one exception - Frostdens have even higher modifier for frost(but this is the whole reason this discussion was created); so if extra 15% damage dealt is an additive bonus, that would mean Wardens benefit the least out of it(~8% extra dps, not the whole 15% increase). I understand that the whole hype around this set only exists because there's no such thing that could be done so easily as maintaining your mana as low as possible and all you get as a reward for such dumbness is extra 15% damage done and everyone naturally has bad sustain so that shouldn't be a problem. But why would Warden run this set? We get the least out of it among all classes

You’re correct that warden gets less from Bahsei than other classes, but it still beats any other set. You don’t really even need low Magicka for it to be the best option, that just makes it better once you’ve decided to wear the set. For example, on warden specifically, Perfect Bahsei beats Mother’s Sorrow at 86% Magicka, and Perf False Gods at 93% Magicka. Perf Siroria is the only set that can compete, and it only works well for stationary fights. Even with 100% uptime on 10 Siroria stacks, Bahsei will beat it with average Magicka under 53%, and no restrictions on movement.

That is exactly what ***** me off about this set - it has 0 drawbacks(for every powerful proc set in this game you have to pay either with uptime, stacks, some negative effects to compensate its superb effectiveness over any non-proc, while this set does not punish you at all), the only thing I hate more is stacks

WrathOfInnos

Trixterion wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Tannus15 I tried Subterranean Assault on Brittle Magden in vRG HM. Seemed pretty good tbh. Very similar damage to Deep Fissure, and much better sustain. Tried Force Pulse and Cliff Racer as spammables (I usually do full DoT rotation, but can't do that with SA), I imagine the build will be better when we have Frost Reach as a spammable.

The interesting thing was that it made Bahsei's Mania work better. I didn't need Netch active 100% of the time, so I could use it selectively to balance Magicka while never running out or needing to heavy attack.

It's funny how Breton allows to sit above 50% magica even without Blue Betty, moreover it allows to sustain without synergies in crappie groups in 4-man content

Unfortunately that means Breton cannot use the best DPS set in the game effectively. That character used to be a Breton, but I had to change it to Khajiit to do competitive damage. Altmer and Dunmer are also fine, but even the small amount of recovery on Khajiit helps with poor Warden sustain. I wish Altmer still had their recovery passive...

Can you explain me this:
Magdens in particular have the highest damage modifiers with only one exception - Frostdens have even higher modifier for frost(but this is the whole reason this discussion was created); so if extra 15% damage dealt is an additive bonus, that would mean Wardens benefit the least out of it(~8% extra dps, not the whole 15% increase). I understand that the whole hype around this set only exists because there's no such thing that could be done so easily as maintaining your mana as low as possible and all you get as a reward for such dumbness is extra 15% damage done and everyone naturally has bad sustain so that shouldn't be a problem. But why would Warden run this set? We get the least out of it among all classes

You’re correct that warden gets less from Bahsei than other classes, but it still beats any other set. You don’t really even need low Magicka for it to be the best option, that just makes it better once you’ve decided to wear the set. For example, on warden specifically, Perfect Bahsei beats Mother’s Sorrow at 86% Magicka, and Perf False Gods at 93% Magicka. Perf Siroria is the only set that can compete, and it only works well for stationary fights. Even with 100% uptime on 10 Siroria stacks, Bahsei will beat it with average Magicka under 53%, and no restrictions on movement.

That is exactly what ***** me off about this set - it has 0 drawbacks(for every powerful proc set in this game you have to pay either with uptime, stacks, some negative effects to compensate its superb effectiveness over any non-proc, while this set does not punish you at all), the only thing I hate more is stacks

I actually like sets with stacks like Siroria, it adds a fun layer to the gameplay and is situationally good. I really don't like how Bahsei punishes building for good sustain, and rewards builds that run dry as quick as possible.

ESO_Nightingale

I stopped by rich lambert's stream and asked him a couple of questions about our archetype. It was really cool for him to answer these because it continues to give me hope for our archetype.

great to see addressing of the fundamental lack of frost damage skills, have you guys had an idea to improve it for a while?:
"we have, there's only so much we can do at one time though, so it takes a little while to build stuff up".

Is the team going to make a new frost damage based monster helm?:
A drawn out "maybe" with a high pitched inflection (seemed to consider it?), "we are definitely trying to make frost dps a real thing, though".

is there going to be another class balance/identity update patch soon:
"it's on the radar but i cannot confirm or deny when"

Tannus15

@WrathOfInnos Wait, this is from live? wow, i thought it would be ok but not particularly viable until the update dropped with the armour changes.

WrathOfInnos

Tannus15 wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos Wait, this is from live? wow, i thought it would be ok but not particularly viable until the update dropped with the armour changes.

@Tannus15 yeah on live. Agree it will be better after patch, just wanted to try it early

ESO_Nightingale

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos Wait, this is from live? wow, i thought it would be ok but not particularly viable until the update dropped with the armour changes.

@Tannus15 yeah on live. Agree it will be better after patch, just wanted to try it early

bahsei and frostbite?

RandomKodiak

@Tannus15 After your tests for me (Thanks a bunch btw ) I switched to Sub Assualt on live as well to up the skill before patch and in groups where someone else has the major breech going it works just fine, as @WrathOfInnos said about the same dps as Deep and way better sustain!

Trixterion

RandomKodiak wrote: »

@Tannus15 After your tests for me (Thanks a bunch btw ) I switched to Sub Assualt on live as well to up the skill before patch and in groups where someone else has the major breech going it works just fine, as @WrathOfInnos said about the same dps as Deep and way better sustain!

That's a good reason to address the problem with magica morph to ZOS - if all dd will run stamina morph maybe they will do something about magica morph

ESO_Nightingale

Trixterion wrote: »

RandomKodiak wrote: »

@Tannus15 After your tests for me (Thanks a bunch btw ) I switched to Sub Assualt on live as well to up the skill before patch and in groups where someone else has the major breech going it works just fine, as @WrathOfInnos said about the same dps as Deep and way better sustain!

That's a good reason to address the problem with magica morph to ZOS - if all dd will run stamina morph maybe they will do something about magica morph

it's probably enough to make it frost and have that niche.