The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Frost damage for Warden
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Trixterion✭✭Trixterion wrote: »It will be just 3% extra dps, nonetheless nobody runs war maider or ysgramor's birthright to buff just 3 skills. The cange to frost reach was noticeable ~5k dps increase while nobody even notices your change. That's, my friend, sounds like a change for the sake of change
If shalk isn't enough, why not switching all animal companion skills to frost damage then ? The benefice would be better.
The fun fact: all Warden's abilities which benefit from fire staves over frost deal magic damage and has damage coefficient 1.5, while all Frostden's skills have damage coefficient after all bonuses of Frostbite applied 1.49 so we would be equal in dps if all damage skills were frost to magden, but what the point of Frostbite in this case?1 -
Trixterion✭✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »WillyOneBlood wrote: »For me, they should make all the DPS skills in each class do one type of damage and then have the destro staff and guild skills as an option where you get the other elements from. I'm not saying give each class the same buffs and an interupt and a stun etc Purely from a role playing point of view though because I understand that in end game you need different types of damage skills to complete the content. But why do none of the animal companions do frost damage?
i'd prefer if all of our skills did frost damage but, for now, frost damage deep fissure is simply the best candidate for an immediate type swap, it doesn't really change anything for the negative except for losing a minor amount of AoE overcharged. instead it would give chilled which is a lot more useful and it just helps us out a lot as frostdens since that's the goal we try to achieve, works better with class passives and item sets too. there's really no reason not to do it. if sub assault deals poison damage when the rest of stamden's kit does bleed and physical, why shouldn't deep fissure be better off with a more benificial type?
The main theme with Magden is that Animal Companion skill line entirely focuses around animals, magic damage and damage modifiers. Magic damage was ALWAYS the hardest hitting in terms of pure numbers(we all know this skills, no need to name them, and this was designed the way it is probably because pure magic damage didn't provide any additional damage because it hadn't any status effects when it was introduced). What you are asking is not an improvement over Warden skill lines but a replacement that will destroy the main Magden archetype in favor of Frostden. We should propose developers to create new skills or improve underrated skills rather than buffing already fine-performing skills to make them op. Frostden should be new archetype that has as little in common as possible with magden so that it would feel at least as different as ElfBane support DK vs pure dps DK(at least in terms of rotation they are different). Frost mages always were different in almost any game, here are some examples:
• frost deals more damage on impact, but skills have higher cost and longer cooldown;
• frost trades it's dps for snares, better shields, frost armor, ice block, freezing enemy into frost statue, and other COOL stuff.
Following this logic solution for Frostden should be implemented via choosing between extra 2% damage of all skills for each Animal companion ability and skills that provide better utility, like what was done with Frost Reach - we traded our decent spammable and extra 2% damage of all our skills for reliable source of Brittle and semi-decent dot attached to it so that now we can remain 95% uptime without Charged trait, or we can now use both berserker enchantment and frost enchantment on our backbar. The idea behind Frostden should be: harder to play than Magden, you deal 10% less damage overall than Magden but your crit damage is higher, you have different skill setup than Magden, your sustain suffers but you have more utility and survivability over Magden.
People who think that having Animal Companions dealing Magic Damage is fine but who panic at the thought of them dealing Frost Damage instead puzzle me greatly.
The ONLY type of damage that animals should do - if you really think about it- is either Physical or Bleed - anything else makes absolutely zero sense.
So, if we can now accept that the truth that Animal Companions dealing Magic Damage is and always was an arbitrary and nonsensical choice that was only selected because magDens needed their attacks to scale with Magic-related stats - then we can also come around to converting them to Frost Damage in order to assist with Frost Warden theming and improving their DPS.
Pretty sure shalks should do fire damage if they were actually "real". But it's very easy to explain. It's warden "storytelling" magic, they're literally spectral. And if warden can't imbue it's magical animals with frost then why can it cast winter's embrace skills?
You could also ask "why does necromancer's blastbones do fire damage?". It's kinda all stupid anyway. So I'm also baffled that a few people are against it.
The observation of Shalks doing Flame Damage is a good one and that likely is what they should have chosen from a lore and basic world-building point of view (though they still can attack without using Flame - which would be basic Physical Damage).
The whole "storytelling" thing is and always was a complete hand-wave to any established TES lore so that they could rope in other standard fantasy tropes for a class that should not even exist in the setting.
But I think that you missed the part where I was agreeing with you about Frost Shalks. My argument is that the Companions being Magic Damage was lame and arbitrary to begin with so "arbitrarily" changing them again to Frost Damage isn't some titanic lore tragedy.
For clarification, I personally fine with frost animals, but I have extra conditions:
• if ALL animal skills dealt frost damage, that would be fine, but how can anyone justify only ONE skill among animals that deals frost damage while others - magic? My thoughts - either all or nothing;
• if Warden was proposed from the beginning as an Ice mage with Conjuration skills(like Sorcerer, but replace all lightning with ice), I would be fine either with all or partial Ice damage for Conjuration skills, but how can we fit all that flower-based healing tree into this concept? My thoughts - if ZOS was trying to make Druid class into the game, it would be more beneficial for them to provide any non-animal or flower-based skills as [weather-based skills]/[wild fire]/[earthquake] and I guess that would be a copy past from D&D that also has right to exist. It's a shame in this case that we have only Ice aspect of the weather and where are those people who fight over call of lightning or earthquake or chain incineration? I am not one of them, so they are either silent or fine with it.
In conclusion, if all magic-based damage skills were turned into frost-based and corresponding passive skills were remade from "+10% for magic and frost damage" into "+10% for bleed and frost damage" and "+10% critical damage dealt to chilled enemies" into "+10% critical damage dealt to chilled and bleeding enemies", that would be fine for the Frostden, but that would make Frostbite mandatory and narrow build diversity. Solution for Frostden should be: either you play with summoned animals or not, like pet and non-pet Sorcerers, that would be ideal for build diversity.
Why would it need to be all or none? I could see Fire Shalks dealing Fire Damage (or maybe make it into a Thunderbug for Shock Damage), a Polar Bear dealing Frost Damage. Fetcher Infection should also be Fire damage if we’re getting technical.
It’s similar to how Necromancer summons work. The Frozen Flesh Colossus deals Frost Damage, the exploding Skeleton deals Fire Damage, and the Skeleton casting Lightning spells deals Shock Damage.
“Magic Damage” seems to be vaguely defined, and overused. Conceptually I don’t really understand what it means. The recipient experiences the same effect from Nightblade’s Dark Shade and Templar’s Radiant Oppression? Seems unlikely, more of a catch-all.
Yeah this all or nothing argument makes no sense to me. It just seems like nonsense not based on any objective fact but rather just feelings. I still have yet to see any argument that has at least partially convinced me that frost shalks isn't a good idea.
Ok, do you consider an aoe Minor Maim and Major Fracture on your demand with 2nd hardest hitting ability connected to this effects(outside ultimate ones for obvious reasons) that also boost your damage done by 2% without anything to sacrifice for justifying it usage(you don't need any set or a particular weapon to achieve its potential) as OP ability? There is no such thing that has 0 downsides and has such powerful effects in ESO(yeah there is aoe Major and Minor Defile but stupid skeleton has pathfinding problems therefore it cannot proc on cooldown so it's fine). So convince me why after changing it into frost with obvious Tanking bonuses it won't get itself nerfed to the ground with damage reduced by half as all Tanking damage abilities deal way too low damage or has clanking animation that messing with GCD or has short duration on their DOTs or has any kind of requirement that will mess up the caster for group benefit(say hello to the Stone Giant). I don't want this ability to be nerfed 1 update after it will be changed into frost damage skill. Shalks way too good so that 1 buff can make them OP
When did i say it would always apply chilled and that nothing should be sacrificed for it? I've been pretty clear that it would help our AoE chilled application along with a little bit of single target since it's a main rotational skill used regardless on frostden. I've personally been wanting to ditch minor berserk, minor vuln and the bonus magic damage for a long time in return for a class kit that actually synergises with itself and has more than 4 damage skills, I'm fairly sure most people who have seen my comments and talk with me about this topic know this as well. How is frost damage shalks suddenly overpowered when it's change barely effects regular magden while helping the struggling frostden a lot?
A little bit of math, that doesn't work as intended in our game:
• there is a tank set, that creates small whirls of ice around while blocking and it's said that the base chance to apply chilled is 15%, but with 1h charged it provides 100% uptime on chilled always without any brainpower to use it - just hold your block;
• frost shalks chilled proc chance = 5%[base aoe direct damage]×(1+100%[Elemental Force]+220%[Charged]+60%[CP])=24%, that ain't much at first glance but if we take into account uptime it would be even worse;
• nobody really know the proc chance of Winter's Revenge, but without frost staff it alone can provide 50-60% uptime.
The real problem here is that ANY Winter's Embrace ability will have ~10% better chance to apply chilled and ~20% more uptime on chilled than any other ability UNLESS it specifies directly in the skill's description. A small pitiful number on skill that can only hit once every 3 seconds will raise your uptime only by 10%, that almost worthless unless you use it as only source of chilled
So. In your last comment you were saying it would be broken if it could apply chilled and do frost damage and now you're saying it would be useless if it could apply chilled since the number is low. The number is small, but it does still apply chilled on one of our rotational skills with a chance in AoE every 3 seconds.
I definitely can't see the line: to be reliable source of chilled it should have 15% at base which would make it OP(that's what I meant in the first place), otherwise return is diminished so that there will be almost no difference whether it would be frost or magic damage, and tank can apply aoe chilled with 100% uptime, so what's the point of your change other than {+6% more damage of this skill +10% uptime on aoe chilled} which equally means less than 3% aoe and single target dps? On trash fight even Frozen Device will apply chilled more regularly. Your pov sounds for me as one of those lines in patch notes where devs say something like "we have increased frost damage on Frostbite by 2%, but upon next patch we will buff fire staves by 2% so that the gap will never narrow, and btw here is your frost spammable as you asked with 100% chilled chance - enjoy". The changes are good but the gap will never narrow unless steps we are doing will be big enough.
It isn't supposed to be really reliable. It's an extra chance in aoe on a rotational skill. And you're also forgetting that the fact it would deal frost damage means it will gain bonuses from frostbite, elemental sucession and ysgramor's birthright rather than just war maiden. These add up to a meaningful buff that isn't hard to do relative to other changes zos has done in the past.
It will be just 3% extra dps, nonetheless nobody runs war maider or ysgramor's birthright to buff just 3 skills. The cange to frost reach was noticeable ~5k dps increase while nobody even notices your change. That's, my friend, sounds like a change for the sake of change
Exactly, if the entire kit isn't magic damage, war maiden isn't getting it's full value, it's also one set where as there are more that work with frost shalks. why should deep fissure remain magic damage? A change for the sake of change? No. There's valid arguments that we've argued to you time and time again and you refuse to listen to them.
According to my latest calculation the entire 5th bonus of Frostbite equal to the bonus of fire staves so that means even if all Warden's abilities will deal frost damage there will be no point in running Frostbite over even Julianus with double fire staves other than buffing Winter's Revenge and frost shalks as they are considered as aoe not single target.1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »WillyOneBlood wrote: »For me, they should make all the DPS skills in each class do one type of damage and then have the destro staff and guild skills as an option where you get the other elements from. I'm not saying give each class the same buffs and an interupt and a stun etc Purely from a role playing point of view though because I understand that in end game you need different types of damage skills to complete the content. But why do none of the animal companions do frost damage?
i'd prefer if all of our skills did frost damage but, for now, frost damage deep fissure is simply the best candidate for an immediate type swap, it doesn't really change anything for the negative except for losing a minor amount of AoE overcharged. instead it would give chilled which is a lot more useful and it just helps us out a lot as frostdens since that's the goal we try to achieve, works better with class passives and item sets too. there's really no reason not to do it. if sub assault deals poison damage when the rest of stamden's kit does bleed and physical, why shouldn't deep fissure be better off with a more benificial type?
The main theme with Magden is that Animal Companion skill line entirely focuses around animals, magic damage and damage modifiers. Magic damage was ALWAYS the hardest hitting in terms of pure numbers(we all know this skills, no need to name them, and this was designed the way it is probably because pure magic damage didn't provide any additional damage because it hadn't any status effects when it was introduced). What you are asking is not an improvement over Warden skill lines but a replacement that will destroy the main Magden archetype in favor of Frostden. We should propose developers to create new skills or improve underrated skills rather than buffing already fine-performing skills to make them op. Frostden should be new archetype that has as little in common as possible with magden so that it would feel at least as different as ElfBane support DK vs pure dps DK(at least in terms of rotation they are different). Frost mages always were different in almost any game, here are some examples:
• frost deals more damage on impact, but skills have higher cost and longer cooldown;
• frost trades it's dps for snares, better shields, frost armor, ice block, freezing enemy into frost statue, and other COOL stuff.
Following this logic solution for Frostden should be implemented via choosing between extra 2% damage of all skills for each Animal companion ability and skills that provide better utility, like what was done with Frost Reach - we traded our decent spammable and extra 2% damage of all our skills for reliable source of Brittle and semi-decent dot attached to it so that now we can remain 95% uptime without Charged trait, or we can now use both berserker enchantment and frost enchantment on our backbar. The idea behind Frostden should be: harder to play than Magden, you deal 10% less damage overall than Magden but your crit damage is higher, you have different skill setup than Magden, your sustain suffers but you have more utility and survivability over Magden.
People who think that having Animal Companions dealing Magic Damage is fine but who panic at the thought of them dealing Frost Damage instead puzzle me greatly.
The ONLY type of damage that animals should do - if you really think about it- is either Physical or Bleed - anything else makes absolutely zero sense.
So, if we can now accept that the truth that Animal Companions dealing Magic Damage is and always was an arbitrary and nonsensical choice that was only selected because magDens needed their attacks to scale with Magic-related stats - then we can also come around to converting them to Frost Damage in order to assist with Frost Warden theming and improving their DPS.
Pretty sure shalks should do fire damage if they were actually "real". But it's very easy to explain. It's warden "storytelling" magic, they're literally spectral. And if warden can't imbue it's magical animals with frost then why can it cast winter's embrace skills?
You could also ask "why does necromancer's blastbones do fire damage?". It's kinda all stupid anyway. So I'm also baffled that a few people are against it.
The observation of Shalks doing Flame Damage is a good one and that likely is what they should have chosen from a lore and basic world-building point of view (though they still can attack without using Flame - which would be basic Physical Damage).
The whole "storytelling" thing is and always was a complete hand-wave to any established TES lore so that they could rope in other standard fantasy tropes for a class that should not even exist in the setting.
But I think that you missed the part where I was agreeing with you about Frost Shalks. My argument is that the Companions being Magic Damage was lame and arbitrary to begin with so "arbitrarily" changing them again to Frost Damage isn't some titanic lore tragedy.
For clarification, I personally fine with frost animals, but I have extra conditions:
• if ALL animal skills dealt frost damage, that would be fine, but how can anyone justify only ONE skill among animals that deals frost damage while others - magic? My thoughts - either all or nothing;
• if Warden was proposed from the beginning as an Ice mage with Conjuration skills(like Sorcerer, but replace all lightning with ice), I would be fine either with all or partial Ice damage for Conjuration skills, but how can we fit all that flower-based healing tree into this concept? My thoughts - if ZOS was trying to make Druid class into the game, it would be more beneficial for them to provide any non-animal or flower-based skills as [weather-based skills]/[wild fire]/[earthquake] and I guess that would be a copy past from D&D that also has right to exist. It's a shame in this case that we have only Ice aspect of the weather and where are those people who fight over call of lightning or earthquake or chain incineration? I am not one of them, so they are either silent or fine with it.
In conclusion, if all magic-based damage skills were turned into frost-based and corresponding passive skills were remade from "+10% for magic and frost damage" into "+10% for bleed and frost damage" and "+10% critical damage dealt to chilled enemies" into "+10% critical damage dealt to chilled and bleeding enemies", that would be fine for the Frostden, but that would make Frostbite mandatory and narrow build diversity. Solution for Frostden should be: either you play with summoned animals or not, like pet and non-pet Sorcerers, that would be ideal for build diversity.
Why would it need to be all or none? I could see Fire Shalks dealing Fire Damage (or maybe make it into a Thunderbug for Shock Damage), a Polar Bear dealing Frost Damage. Fetcher Infection should also be Fire damage if we’re getting technical.
It’s similar to how Necromancer summons work. The Frozen Flesh Colossus deals Frost Damage, the exploding Skeleton deals Fire Damage, and the Skeleton casting Lightning spells deals Shock Damage.
“Magic Damage” seems to be vaguely defined, and overused. Conceptually I don’t really understand what it means. The recipient experiences the same effect from Nightblade’s Dark Shade and Templar’s Radiant Oppression? Seems unlikely, more of a catch-all.
Yeah this all or nothing argument makes no sense to me. It just seems like nonsense not based on any objective fact but rather just feelings. I still have yet to see any argument that has at least partially convinced me that frost shalks isn't a good idea.
Ok, do you consider an aoe Minor Maim and Major Fracture on your demand with 2nd hardest hitting ability connected to this effects(outside ultimate ones for obvious reasons) that also boost your damage done by 2% without anything to sacrifice for justifying it usage(you don't need any set or a particular weapon to achieve its potential) as OP ability? There is no such thing that has 0 downsides and has such powerful effects in ESO(yeah there is aoe Major and Minor Defile but stupid skeleton has pathfinding problems therefore it cannot proc on cooldown so it's fine). So convince me why after changing it into frost with obvious Tanking bonuses it won't get itself nerfed to the ground with damage reduced by half as all Tanking damage abilities deal way too low damage or has clanking animation that messing with GCD or has short duration on their DOTs or has any kind of requirement that will mess up the caster for group benefit(say hello to the Stone Giant). I don't want this ability to be nerfed 1 update after it will be changed into frost damage skill. Shalks way too good so that 1 buff can make them OP
When did i say it would always apply chilled and that nothing should be sacrificed for it? I've been pretty clear that it would help our AoE chilled application along with a little bit of single target since it's a main rotational skill used regardless on frostden. I've personally been wanting to ditch minor berserk, minor vuln and the bonus magic damage for a long time in return for a class kit that actually synergises with itself and has more than 4 damage skills, I'm fairly sure most people who have seen my comments and talk with me about this topic know this as well. How is frost damage shalks suddenly overpowered when it's change barely effects regular magden while helping the struggling frostden a lot?
A little bit of math, that doesn't work as intended in our game:
• there is a tank set, that creates small whirls of ice around while blocking and it's said that the base chance to apply chilled is 15%, but with 1h charged it provides 100% uptime on chilled always without any brainpower to use it - just hold your block;
• frost shalks chilled proc chance = 5%[base aoe direct damage]×(1+100%[Elemental Force]+220%[Charged]+60%[CP])=24%, that ain't much at first glance but if we take into account uptime it would be even worse;
• nobody really know the proc chance of Winter's Revenge, but without frost staff it alone can provide 50-60% uptime.
The real problem here is that ANY Winter's Embrace ability will have ~10% better chance to apply chilled and ~20% more uptime on chilled than any other ability UNLESS it specifies directly in the skill's description. A small pitiful number on skill that can only hit once every 3 seconds will raise your uptime only by 10%, that almost worthless unless you use it as only source of chilled
So. In your last comment you were saying it would be broken if it could apply chilled and do frost damage and now you're saying it would be useless if it could apply chilled since the number is low. The number is small, but it does still apply chilled on one of our rotational skills with a chance in AoE every 3 seconds.
I definitely can't see the line: to be reliable source of chilled it should have 15% at base which would make it OP(that's what I meant in the first place), otherwise return is diminished so that there will be almost no difference whether it would be frost or magic damage, and tank can apply aoe chilled with 100% uptime, so what's the point of your change other than {+6% more damage of this skill +10% uptime on aoe chilled} which equally means less than 3% aoe and single target dps? On trash fight even Frozen Device will apply chilled more regularly. Your pov sounds for me as one of those lines in patch notes where devs say something like "we have increased frost damage on Frostbite by 2%, but upon next patch we will buff fire staves by 2% so that the gap will never narrow, and btw here is your frost spammable as you asked with 100% chilled chance - enjoy". The changes are good but the gap will never narrow unless steps we are doing will be big enough.
It isn't supposed to be really reliable. It's an extra chance in aoe on a rotational skill. And you're also forgetting that the fact it would deal frost damage means it will gain bonuses from frostbite, elemental sucession and ysgramor's birthright rather than just war maiden. These add up to a meaningful buff that isn't hard to do relative to other changes zos has done in the past.
It will be just 3% extra dps, nonetheless nobody runs war maider or ysgramor's birthright to buff just 3 skills. The cange to frost reach was noticeable ~5k dps increase while nobody even notices your change. That's, my friend, sounds like a change for the sake of change
Exactly, if the entire kit isn't magic damage, war maiden isn't getting it's full value, it's also one set where as there are more that work with frost shalks. why should deep fissure remain magic damage? A change for the sake of change? No. There's valid arguments that we've argued to you time and time again and you refuse to listen to them.
According to my latest calculation the entire 5th bonus of Frostbite equal to the bonus of fire staves so that means even if all Warden's abilities will deal frost damage there will be no point in running Frostbite over even Julianus with double fire staves other than buffing Winter's Revenge and frost shalks as they are considered as aoe not single target.
So we should just give up? No.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX1 -
Trixterion✭✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »WillyOneBlood wrote: »For me, they should make all the DPS skills in each class do one type of damage and then have the destro staff and guild skills as an option where you get the other elements from. I'm not saying give each class the same buffs and an interupt and a stun etc Purely from a role playing point of view though because I understand that in end game you need different types of damage skills to complete the content. But why do none of the animal companions do frost damage?
i'd prefer if all of our skills did frost damage but, for now, frost damage deep fissure is simply the best candidate for an immediate type swap, it doesn't really change anything for the negative except for losing a minor amount of AoE overcharged. instead it would give chilled which is a lot more useful and it just helps us out a lot as frostdens since that's the goal we try to achieve, works better with class passives and item sets too. there's really no reason not to do it. if sub assault deals poison damage when the rest of stamden's kit does bleed and physical, why shouldn't deep fissure be better off with a more benificial type?
The main theme with Magden is that Animal Companion skill line entirely focuses around animals, magic damage and damage modifiers. Magic damage was ALWAYS the hardest hitting in terms of pure numbers(we all know this skills, no need to name them, and this was designed the way it is probably because pure magic damage didn't provide any additional damage because it hadn't any status effects when it was introduced). What you are asking is not an improvement over Warden skill lines but a replacement that will destroy the main Magden archetype in favor of Frostden. We should propose developers to create new skills or improve underrated skills rather than buffing already fine-performing skills to make them op. Frostden should be new archetype that has as little in common as possible with magden so that it would feel at least as different as ElfBane support DK vs pure dps DK(at least in terms of rotation they are different). Frost mages always were different in almost any game, here are some examples:
• frost deals more damage on impact, but skills have higher cost and longer cooldown;
• frost trades it's dps for snares, better shields, frost armor, ice block, freezing enemy into frost statue, and other COOL stuff.
Following this logic solution for Frostden should be implemented via choosing between extra 2% damage of all skills for each Animal companion ability and skills that provide better utility, like what was done with Frost Reach - we traded our decent spammable and extra 2% damage of all our skills for reliable source of Brittle and semi-decent dot attached to it so that now we can remain 95% uptime without Charged trait, or we can now use both berserker enchantment and frost enchantment on our backbar. The idea behind Frostden should be: harder to play than Magden, you deal 10% less damage overall than Magden but your crit damage is higher, you have different skill setup than Magden, your sustain suffers but you have more utility and survivability over Magden.
People who think that having Animal Companions dealing Magic Damage is fine but who panic at the thought of them dealing Frost Damage instead puzzle me greatly.
The ONLY type of damage that animals should do - if you really think about it- is either Physical or Bleed - anything else makes absolutely zero sense.
So, if we can now accept that the truth that Animal Companions dealing Magic Damage is and always was an arbitrary and nonsensical choice that was only selected because magDens needed their attacks to scale with Magic-related stats - then we can also come around to converting them to Frost Damage in order to assist with Frost Warden theming and improving their DPS.
Pretty sure shalks should do fire damage if they were actually "real". But it's very easy to explain. It's warden "storytelling" magic, they're literally spectral. And if warden can't imbue it's magical animals with frost then why can it cast winter's embrace skills?
You could also ask "why does necromancer's blastbones do fire damage?". It's kinda all stupid anyway. So I'm also baffled that a few people are against it.
The observation of Shalks doing Flame Damage is a good one and that likely is what they should have chosen from a lore and basic world-building point of view (though they still can attack without using Flame - which would be basic Physical Damage).
The whole "storytelling" thing is and always was a complete hand-wave to any established TES lore so that they could rope in other standard fantasy tropes for a class that should not even exist in the setting.
But I think that you missed the part where I was agreeing with you about Frost Shalks. My argument is that the Companions being Magic Damage was lame and arbitrary to begin with so "arbitrarily" changing them again to Frost Damage isn't some titanic lore tragedy.
For clarification, I personally fine with frost animals, but I have extra conditions:
• if ALL animal skills dealt frost damage, that would be fine, but how can anyone justify only ONE skill among animals that deals frost damage while others - magic? My thoughts - either all or nothing;
• if Warden was proposed from the beginning as an Ice mage with Conjuration skills(like Sorcerer, but replace all lightning with ice), I would be fine either with all or partial Ice damage for Conjuration skills, but how can we fit all that flower-based healing tree into this concept? My thoughts - if ZOS was trying to make Druid class into the game, it would be more beneficial for them to provide any non-animal or flower-based skills as [weather-based skills]/[wild fire]/[earthquake] and I guess that would be a copy past from D&D that also has right to exist. It's a shame in this case that we have only Ice aspect of the weather and where are those people who fight over call of lightning or earthquake or chain incineration? I am not one of them, so they are either silent or fine with it.
In conclusion, if all magic-based damage skills were turned into frost-based and corresponding passive skills were remade from "+10% for magic and frost damage" into "+10% for bleed and frost damage" and "+10% critical damage dealt to chilled enemies" into "+10% critical damage dealt to chilled and bleeding enemies", that would be fine for the Frostden, but that would make Frostbite mandatory and narrow build diversity. Solution for Frostden should be: either you play with summoned animals or not, like pet and non-pet Sorcerers, that would be ideal for build diversity.
Why would it need to be all or none? I could see Fire Shalks dealing Fire Damage (or maybe make it into a Thunderbug for Shock Damage), a Polar Bear dealing Frost Damage. Fetcher Infection should also be Fire damage if we’re getting technical.
It’s similar to how Necromancer summons work. The Frozen Flesh Colossus deals Frost Damage, the exploding Skeleton deals Fire Damage, and the Skeleton casting Lightning spells deals Shock Damage.
“Magic Damage” seems to be vaguely defined, and overused. Conceptually I don’t really understand what it means. The recipient experiences the same effect from Nightblade’s Dark Shade and Templar’s Radiant Oppression? Seems unlikely, more of a catch-all.
Yeah this all or nothing argument makes no sense to me. It just seems like nonsense not based on any objective fact but rather just feelings. I still have yet to see any argument that has at least partially convinced me that frost shalks isn't a good idea.
Ok, do you consider an aoe Minor Maim and Major Fracture on your demand with 2nd hardest hitting ability connected to this effects(outside ultimate ones for obvious reasons) that also boost your damage done by 2% without anything to sacrifice for justifying it usage(you don't need any set or a particular weapon to achieve its potential) as OP ability? There is no such thing that has 0 downsides and has such powerful effects in ESO(yeah there is aoe Major and Minor Defile but stupid skeleton has pathfinding problems therefore it cannot proc on cooldown so it's fine). So convince me why after changing it into frost with obvious Tanking bonuses it won't get itself nerfed to the ground with damage reduced by half as all Tanking damage abilities deal way too low damage or has clanking animation that messing with GCD or has short duration on their DOTs or has any kind of requirement that will mess up the caster for group benefit(say hello to the Stone Giant). I don't want this ability to be nerfed 1 update after it will be changed into frost damage skill. Shalks way too good so that 1 buff can make them OP
When did i say it would always apply chilled and that nothing should be sacrificed for it? I've been pretty clear that it would help our AoE chilled application along with a little bit of single target since it's a main rotational skill used regardless on frostden. I've personally been wanting to ditch minor berserk, minor vuln and the bonus magic damage for a long time in return for a class kit that actually synergises with itself and has more than 4 damage skills, I'm fairly sure most people who have seen my comments and talk with me about this topic know this as well. How is frost damage shalks suddenly overpowered when it's change barely effects regular magden while helping the struggling frostden a lot?
A little bit of math, that doesn't work as intended in our game:
• there is a tank set, that creates small whirls of ice around while blocking and it's said that the base chance to apply chilled is 15%, but with 1h charged it provides 100% uptime on chilled always without any brainpower to use it - just hold your block;
• frost shalks chilled proc chance = 5%[base aoe direct damage]×(1+100%[Elemental Force]+220%[Charged]+60%[CP])=24%, that ain't much at first glance but if we take into account uptime it would be even worse;
• nobody really know the proc chance of Winter's Revenge, but without frost staff it alone can provide 50-60% uptime.
The real problem here is that ANY Winter's Embrace ability will have ~10% better chance to apply chilled and ~20% more uptime on chilled than any other ability UNLESS it specifies directly in the skill's description. A small pitiful number on skill that can only hit once every 3 seconds will raise your uptime only by 10%, that almost worthless unless you use it as only source of chilled
So. In your last comment you were saying it would be broken if it could apply chilled and do frost damage and now you're saying it would be useless if it could apply chilled since the number is low. The number is small, but it does still apply chilled on one of our rotational skills with a chance in AoE every 3 seconds.
I definitely can't see the line: to be reliable source of chilled it should have 15% at base which would make it OP(that's what I meant in the first place), otherwise return is diminished so that there will be almost no difference whether it would be frost or magic damage, and tank can apply aoe chilled with 100% uptime, so what's the point of your change other than {+6% more damage of this skill +10% uptime on aoe chilled} which equally means less than 3% aoe and single target dps? On trash fight even Frozen Device will apply chilled more regularly. Your pov sounds for me as one of those lines in patch notes where devs say something like "we have increased frost damage on Frostbite by 2%, but upon next patch we will buff fire staves by 2% so that the gap will never narrow, and btw here is your frost spammable as you asked with 100% chilled chance - enjoy". The changes are good but the gap will never narrow unless steps we are doing will be big enough.
It isn't supposed to be really reliable. It's an extra chance in aoe on a rotational skill. And you're also forgetting that the fact it would deal frost damage means it will gain bonuses from frostbite, elemental sucession and ysgramor's birthright rather than just war maiden. These add up to a meaningful buff that isn't hard to do relative to other changes zos has done in the past.
It will be just 3% extra dps, nonetheless nobody runs war maider or ysgramor's birthright to buff just 3 skills. The cange to frost reach was noticeable ~5k dps increase while nobody even notices your change. That's, my friend, sounds like a change for the sake of change
Exactly, if the entire kit isn't magic damage, war maiden isn't getting it's full value, it's also one set where as there are more that work with frost shalks. why should deep fissure remain magic damage? A change for the sake of change? No. There's valid arguments that we've argued to you time and time again and you refuse to listen to them.
According to my latest calculation the entire 5th bonus of Frostbite equal to the bonus of fire staves so that means even if all Warden's abilities will deal frost damage there will be no point in running Frostbite over even Julianus with double fire staves other than buffing Winter's Revenge and frost shalks as they are considered as aoe not single target.
So we should just give up? No.
We should fight for something that will exceed with Frostbite equipped not just one skill that will benefit both Warden's archetypes we need better Unstable wall of elements for everyone since The fire one overperforms significantly. We need such buffs, sets and skills that directly benefit only Frostden so that the gap between Frostden and Magden will be narrowed or even eliminated. We should ask for changes that support dual frost staves dd setups. Here is an example why:
Do you remember the first introduction of Frostbite and how it was buffed during pts cycle? Have you ever wondered why devs have buffed the first line of 5th bonus(from +6% to 8% frost damage) rather than damage to chilled and brittled enemies? Because the bonus of damage dealt to chilled and brittled enemies help anyone even if he doesn't wield frost staff because it doesn't require you to apply them, so that if tank can keep enemies under Brittle anyone can get FREE 6% bonus damage done, while the frost damage line beneficial only for the person who is trying to apply those effects. Name any other Warden ability that will benefit from Frostbite more than from fire staves, if it will become frost. Imagine if you have already succeeded and Frost shalks is a real skill, what is your next step? And step after that? Can you see a 3 turn checkmate(aka 3 things that should be done to make Frostbite and Frostden better than fire staves in general except some builds that won't benefit from Frostbite but would be viable without frost skills)? If we want to win we need a proper plan that everyone agrees with or we will turn into another "Stamwhip" group(no offense I'm with you, but I don't want the same fate for anyone of being unheard)1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »WillyOneBlood wrote: »For me, they should make all the DPS skills in each class do one type of damage and then have the destro staff and guild skills as an option where you get the other elements from. I'm not saying give each class the same buffs and an interupt and a stun etc Purely from a role playing point of view though because I understand that in end game you need different types of damage skills to complete the content. But why do none of the animal companions do frost damage?
i'd prefer if all of our skills did frost damage but, for now, frost damage deep fissure is simply the best candidate for an immediate type swap, it doesn't really change anything for the negative except for losing a minor amount of AoE overcharged. instead it would give chilled which is a lot more useful and it just helps us out a lot as frostdens since that's the goal we try to achieve, works better with class passives and item sets too. there's really no reason not to do it. if sub assault deals poison damage when the rest of stamden's kit does bleed and physical, why shouldn't deep fissure be better off with a more benificial type?
The main theme with Magden is that Animal Companion skill line entirely focuses around animals, magic damage and damage modifiers. Magic damage was ALWAYS the hardest hitting in terms of pure numbers(we all know this skills, no need to name them, and this was designed the way it is probably because pure magic damage didn't provide any additional damage because it hadn't any status effects when it was introduced). What you are asking is not an improvement over Warden skill lines but a replacement that will destroy the main Magden archetype in favor of Frostden. We should propose developers to create new skills or improve underrated skills rather than buffing already fine-performing skills to make them op. Frostden should be new archetype that has as little in common as possible with magden so that it would feel at least as different as ElfBane support DK vs pure dps DK(at least in terms of rotation they are different). Frost mages always were different in almost any game, here are some examples:
• frost deals more damage on impact, but skills have higher cost and longer cooldown;
• frost trades it's dps for snares, better shields, frost armor, ice block, freezing enemy into frost statue, and other COOL stuff.
Following this logic solution for Frostden should be implemented via choosing between extra 2% damage of all skills for each Animal companion ability and skills that provide better utility, like what was done with Frost Reach - we traded our decent spammable and extra 2% damage of all our skills for reliable source of Brittle and semi-decent dot attached to it so that now we can remain 95% uptime without Charged trait, or we can now use both berserker enchantment and frost enchantment on our backbar. The idea behind Frostden should be: harder to play than Magden, you deal 10% less damage overall than Magden but your crit damage is higher, you have different skill setup than Magden, your sustain suffers but you have more utility and survivability over Magden.
People who think that having Animal Companions dealing Magic Damage is fine but who panic at the thought of them dealing Frost Damage instead puzzle me greatly.
The ONLY type of damage that animals should do - if you really think about it- is either Physical or Bleed - anything else makes absolutely zero sense.
So, if we can now accept that the truth that Animal Companions dealing Magic Damage is and always was an arbitrary and nonsensical choice that was only selected because magDens needed their attacks to scale with Magic-related stats - then we can also come around to converting them to Frost Damage in order to assist with Frost Warden theming and improving their DPS.
Pretty sure shalks should do fire damage if they were actually "real". But it's very easy to explain. It's warden "storytelling" magic, they're literally spectral. And if warden can't imbue it's magical animals with frost then why can it cast winter's embrace skills?
You could also ask "why does necromancer's blastbones do fire damage?". It's kinda all stupid anyway. So I'm also baffled that a few people are against it.
The observation of Shalks doing Flame Damage is a good one and that likely is what they should have chosen from a lore and basic world-building point of view (though they still can attack without using Flame - which would be basic Physical Damage).
The whole "storytelling" thing is and always was a complete hand-wave to any established TES lore so that they could rope in other standard fantasy tropes for a class that should not even exist in the setting.
But I think that you missed the part where I was agreeing with you about Frost Shalks. My argument is that the Companions being Magic Damage was lame and arbitrary to begin with so "arbitrarily" changing them again to Frost Damage isn't some titanic lore tragedy.
For clarification, I personally fine with frost animals, but I have extra conditions:
• if ALL animal skills dealt frost damage, that would be fine, but how can anyone justify only ONE skill among animals that deals frost damage while others - magic? My thoughts - either all or nothing;
• if Warden was proposed from the beginning as an Ice mage with Conjuration skills(like Sorcerer, but replace all lightning with ice), I would be fine either with all or partial Ice damage for Conjuration skills, but how can we fit all that flower-based healing tree into this concept? My thoughts - if ZOS was trying to make Druid class into the game, it would be more beneficial for them to provide any non-animal or flower-based skills as [weather-based skills]/[wild fire]/[earthquake] and I guess that would be a copy past from D&D that also has right to exist. It's a shame in this case that we have only Ice aspect of the weather and where are those people who fight over call of lightning or earthquake or chain incineration? I am not one of them, so they are either silent or fine with it.
In conclusion, if all magic-based damage skills were turned into frost-based and corresponding passive skills were remade from "+10% for magic and frost damage" into "+10% for bleed and frost damage" and "+10% critical damage dealt to chilled enemies" into "+10% critical damage dealt to chilled and bleeding enemies", that would be fine for the Frostden, but that would make Frostbite mandatory and narrow build diversity. Solution for Frostden should be: either you play with summoned animals or not, like pet and non-pet Sorcerers, that would be ideal for build diversity.
Why would it need to be all or none? I could see Fire Shalks dealing Fire Damage (or maybe make it into a Thunderbug for Shock Damage), a Polar Bear dealing Frost Damage. Fetcher Infection should also be Fire damage if we’re getting technical.
It’s similar to how Necromancer summons work. The Frozen Flesh Colossus deals Frost Damage, the exploding Skeleton deals Fire Damage, and the Skeleton casting Lightning spells deals Shock Damage.
“Magic Damage” seems to be vaguely defined, and overused. Conceptually I don’t really understand what it means. The recipient experiences the same effect from Nightblade’s Dark Shade and Templar’s Radiant Oppression? Seems unlikely, more of a catch-all.
Yeah this all or nothing argument makes no sense to me. It just seems like nonsense not based on any objective fact but rather just feelings. I still have yet to see any argument that has at least partially convinced me that frost shalks isn't a good idea.
Ok, do you consider an aoe Minor Maim and Major Fracture on your demand with 2nd hardest hitting ability connected to this effects(outside ultimate ones for obvious reasons) that also boost your damage done by 2% without anything to sacrifice for justifying it usage(you don't need any set or a particular weapon to achieve its potential) as OP ability? There is no such thing that has 0 downsides and has such powerful effects in ESO(yeah there is aoe Major and Minor Defile but stupid skeleton has pathfinding problems therefore it cannot proc on cooldown so it's fine). So convince me why after changing it into frost with obvious Tanking bonuses it won't get itself nerfed to the ground with damage reduced by half as all Tanking damage abilities deal way too low damage or has clanking animation that messing with GCD or has short duration on their DOTs or has any kind of requirement that will mess up the caster for group benefit(say hello to the Stone Giant). I don't want this ability to be nerfed 1 update after it will be changed into frost damage skill. Shalks way too good so that 1 buff can make them OP
When did i say it would always apply chilled and that nothing should be sacrificed for it? I've been pretty clear that it would help our AoE chilled application along with a little bit of single target since it's a main rotational skill used regardless on frostden. I've personally been wanting to ditch minor berserk, minor vuln and the bonus magic damage for a long time in return for a class kit that actually synergises with itself and has more than 4 damage skills, I'm fairly sure most people who have seen my comments and talk with me about this topic know this as well. How is frost damage shalks suddenly overpowered when it's change barely effects regular magden while helping the struggling frostden a lot?
A little bit of math, that doesn't work as intended in our game:
• there is a tank set, that creates small whirls of ice around while blocking and it's said that the base chance to apply chilled is 15%, but with 1h charged it provides 100% uptime on chilled always without any brainpower to use it - just hold your block;
• frost shalks chilled proc chance = 5%[base aoe direct damage]×(1+100%[Elemental Force]+220%[Charged]+60%[CP])=24%, that ain't much at first glance but if we take into account uptime it would be even worse;
• nobody really know the proc chance of Winter's Revenge, but without frost staff it alone can provide 50-60% uptime.
The real problem here is that ANY Winter's Embrace ability will have ~10% better chance to apply chilled and ~20% more uptime on chilled than any other ability UNLESS it specifies directly in the skill's description. A small pitiful number on skill that can only hit once every 3 seconds will raise your uptime only by 10%, that almost worthless unless you use it as only source of chilled
So. In your last comment you were saying it would be broken if it could apply chilled and do frost damage and now you're saying it would be useless if it could apply chilled since the number is low. The number is small, but it does still apply chilled on one of our rotational skills with a chance in AoE every 3 seconds.
I definitely can't see the line: to be reliable source of chilled it should have 15% at base which would make it OP(that's what I meant in the first place), otherwise return is diminished so that there will be almost no difference whether it would be frost or magic damage, and tank can apply aoe chilled with 100% uptime, so what's the point of your change other than {+6% more damage of this skill +10% uptime on aoe chilled} which equally means less than 3% aoe and single target dps? On trash fight even Frozen Device will apply chilled more regularly. Your pov sounds for me as one of those lines in patch notes where devs say something like "we have increased frost damage on Frostbite by 2%, but upon next patch we will buff fire staves by 2% so that the gap will never narrow, and btw here is your frost spammable as you asked with 100% chilled chance - enjoy". The changes are good but the gap will never narrow unless steps we are doing will be big enough.
It isn't supposed to be really reliable. It's an extra chance in aoe on a rotational skill. And you're also forgetting that the fact it would deal frost damage means it will gain bonuses from frostbite, elemental sucession and ysgramor's birthright rather than just war maiden. These add up to a meaningful buff that isn't hard to do relative to other changes zos has done in the past.
It will be just 3% extra dps, nonetheless nobody runs war maider or ysgramor's birthright to buff just 3 skills. The cange to frost reach was noticeable ~5k dps increase while nobody even notices your change. That's, my friend, sounds like a change for the sake of change
Exactly, if the entire kit isn't magic damage, war maiden isn't getting it's full value, it's also one set where as there are more that work with frost shalks. why should deep fissure remain magic damage? A change for the sake of change? No. There's valid arguments that we've argued to you time and time again and you refuse to listen to them.
According to my latest calculation the entire 5th bonus of Frostbite equal to the bonus of fire staves so that means even if all Warden's abilities will deal frost damage there will be no point in running Frostbite over even Julianus with double fire staves other than buffing Winter's Revenge and frost shalks as they are considered as aoe not single target.
So we should just give up? No.
We should fight for something that will exceed with Frostbite equipped not just one skill that will benefit both Warden's archetypes we need better Unstable wall of elements for everyone since The fire one overperforms significantly. We need such buffs, sets and skills that directly benefit only Frostden so that the gap between Frostden and Magden will be narrowed or even eliminated. We should ask for changes that support dual frost staves dd setups. Here is an example why:
Do you remember the first introduction of Frostbite and how it was buffed during pts cycle? Have you ever wondered why devs have buffed the first line of 5th bonus(from +6% to 8% frost damage) rather than damage to chilled and brittled enemies? Because the bonus of damage dealt to chilled and brittled enemies help anyone even if he doesn't wield frost staff because it doesn't require you to apply them, so that if tank can keep enemies under Brittle anyone can get FREE 6% bonus damage done, while the frost damage line beneficial only for the person who is trying to apply those effects. Name any other Warden ability that will benefit from Frostbite more than from fire staves, if it will become frost. Imagine if you have already succeeded and Frost shalks is a real skill, what is your next step? And step after that? Can you see a 3 turn checkmate(aka 3 things that should be done to make Frostbite and Frostden better than fire staves in general except some builds that won't benefit from Frostbite but would be viable without frost skills)? If we want to win we need a proper plan that everyone agrees with or we will turn into another "Stamwhip" group(no offense I'm with you, but I don't want the same fate for anyone of being unheard)
how can you expect for everyone to agree with something? people are adverse to change based on our conversation it seems like you yourself are a prime example of this, a majority of people want at least frost shalks to happen, not specifically all of animal companions, which is fine, whatever. Frost Shalks is a genuine change that helps out our archetype, it's not the only thing that should happen, but it's the next step. If we focus on pushing one thing at a time it's more likely to happen since more people can rally around it, and zos can clearly see what to do. I am under the impression that you think we will just give up after this? That is not what is going to happen. It's just that this change is relatively easy for zos to do, effective in what we need, and does not negitively effect anyone involved in it unless they really like overcharged or war maiden. I'm not going to keep explaining everything we've clearly said basically hundreds of times over, because it feels like i'm talking to a brick wall. yes, the fire staff wardens will benefit from this as well, but they're always benefiting more over other specs because of E+E, which is another problem in of itself and the fact that the (now 10%) ST dmg bonus effects light attacks when shock staff's one doesn't. we need more frost damage attacks, another winter's embrace one would be awesome but that requires a lot more work than frost shalks. deep fissure's place as an aoe and gameplay anchoring skill on our main rotation (that we cannot go without) makes it a perfect candidate for the change. see every other reason in other comments we've already exchanged.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX1 -
Trixterion✭✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »WillyOneBlood wrote: »For me, they should make all the DPS skills in each class do one type of damage and then have the destro staff and guild skills as an option where you get the other elements from. I'm not saying give each class the same buffs and an interupt and a stun etc Purely from a role playing point of view though because I understand that in end game you need different types of damage skills to complete the content. But why do none of the animal companions do frost damage?
i'd prefer if all of our skills did frost damage but, for now, frost damage deep fissure is simply the best candidate for an immediate type swap, it doesn't really change anything for the negative except for losing a minor amount of AoE overcharged. instead it would give chilled which is a lot more useful and it just helps us out a lot as frostdens since that's the goal we try to achieve, works better with class passives and item sets too. there's really no reason not to do it. if sub assault deals poison damage when the rest of stamden's kit does bleed and physical, why shouldn't deep fissure be better off with a more benificial type?
The main theme with Magden is that Animal Companion skill line entirely focuses around animals, magic damage and damage modifiers. Magic damage was ALWAYS the hardest hitting in terms of pure numbers(we all know this skills, no need to name them, and this was designed the way it is probably because pure magic damage didn't provide any additional damage because it hadn't any status effects when it was introduced). What you are asking is not an improvement over Warden skill lines but a replacement that will destroy the main Magden archetype in favor of Frostden. We should propose developers to create new skills or improve underrated skills rather than buffing already fine-performing skills to make them op. Frostden should be new archetype that has as little in common as possible with magden so that it would feel at least as different as ElfBane support DK vs pure dps DK(at least in terms of rotation they are different). Frost mages always were different in almost any game, here are some examples:
• frost deals more damage on impact, but skills have higher cost and longer cooldown;
• frost trades it's dps for snares, better shields, frost armor, ice block, freezing enemy into frost statue, and other COOL stuff.
Following this logic solution for Frostden should be implemented via choosing between extra 2% damage of all skills for each Animal companion ability and skills that provide better utility, like what was done with Frost Reach - we traded our decent spammable and extra 2% damage of all our skills for reliable source of Brittle and semi-decent dot attached to it so that now we can remain 95% uptime without Charged trait, or we can now use both berserker enchantment and frost enchantment on our backbar. The idea behind Frostden should be: harder to play than Magden, you deal 10% less damage overall than Magden but your crit damage is higher, you have different skill setup than Magden, your sustain suffers but you have more utility and survivability over Magden.
People who think that having Animal Companions dealing Magic Damage is fine but who panic at the thought of them dealing Frost Damage instead puzzle me greatly.
The ONLY type of damage that animals should do - if you really think about it- is either Physical or Bleed - anything else makes absolutely zero sense.
So, if we can now accept that the truth that Animal Companions dealing Magic Damage is and always was an arbitrary and nonsensical choice that was only selected because magDens needed their attacks to scale with Magic-related stats - then we can also come around to converting them to Frost Damage in order to assist with Frost Warden theming and improving their DPS.
Pretty sure shalks should do fire damage if they were actually "real". But it's very easy to explain. It's warden "storytelling" magic, they're literally spectral. And if warden can't imbue it's magical animals with frost then why can it cast winter's embrace skills?
You could also ask "why does necromancer's blastbones do fire damage?". It's kinda all stupid anyway. So I'm also baffled that a few people are against it.
The observation of Shalks doing Flame Damage is a good one and that likely is what they should have chosen from a lore and basic world-building point of view (though they still can attack without using Flame - which would be basic Physical Damage).
The whole "storytelling" thing is and always was a complete hand-wave to any established TES lore so that they could rope in other standard fantasy tropes for a class that should not even exist in the setting.
But I think that you missed the part where I was agreeing with you about Frost Shalks. My argument is that the Companions being Magic Damage was lame and arbitrary to begin with so "arbitrarily" changing them again to Frost Damage isn't some titanic lore tragedy.
For clarification, I personally fine with frost animals, but I have extra conditions:
• if ALL animal skills dealt frost damage, that would be fine, but how can anyone justify only ONE skill among animals that deals frost damage while others - magic? My thoughts - either all or nothing;
• if Warden was proposed from the beginning as an Ice mage with Conjuration skills(like Sorcerer, but replace all lightning with ice), I would be fine either with all or partial Ice damage for Conjuration skills, but how can we fit all that flower-based healing tree into this concept? My thoughts - if ZOS was trying to make Druid class into the game, it would be more beneficial for them to provide any non-animal or flower-based skills as [weather-based skills]/[wild fire]/[earthquake] and I guess that would be a copy past from D&D that also has right to exist. It's a shame in this case that we have only Ice aspect of the weather and where are those people who fight over call of lightning or earthquake or chain incineration? I am not one of them, so they are either silent or fine with it.
In conclusion, if all magic-based damage skills were turned into frost-based and corresponding passive skills were remade from "+10% for magic and frost damage" into "+10% for bleed and frost damage" and "+10% critical damage dealt to chilled enemies" into "+10% critical damage dealt to chilled and bleeding enemies", that would be fine for the Frostden, but that would make Frostbite mandatory and narrow build diversity. Solution for Frostden should be: either you play with summoned animals or not, like pet and non-pet Sorcerers, that would be ideal for build diversity.
Why would it need to be all or none? I could see Fire Shalks dealing Fire Damage (or maybe make it into a Thunderbug for Shock Damage), a Polar Bear dealing Frost Damage. Fetcher Infection should also be Fire damage if we’re getting technical.
It’s similar to how Necromancer summons work. The Frozen Flesh Colossus deals Frost Damage, the exploding Skeleton deals Fire Damage, and the Skeleton casting Lightning spells deals Shock Damage.
“Magic Damage” seems to be vaguely defined, and overused. Conceptually I don’t really understand what it means. The recipient experiences the same effect from Nightblade’s Dark Shade and Templar’s Radiant Oppression? Seems unlikely, more of a catch-all.
Yeah this all or nothing argument makes no sense to me. It just seems like nonsense not based on any objective fact but rather just feelings. I still have yet to see any argument that has at least partially convinced me that frost shalks isn't a good idea.
Ok, do you consider an aoe Minor Maim and Major Fracture on your demand with 2nd hardest hitting ability connected to this effects(outside ultimate ones for obvious reasons) that also boost your damage done by 2% without anything to sacrifice for justifying it usage(you don't need any set or a particular weapon to achieve its potential) as OP ability? There is no such thing that has 0 downsides and has such powerful effects in ESO(yeah there is aoe Major and Minor Defile but stupid skeleton has pathfinding problems therefore it cannot proc on cooldown so it's fine). So convince me why after changing it into frost with obvious Tanking bonuses it won't get itself nerfed to the ground with damage reduced by half as all Tanking damage abilities deal way too low damage or has clanking animation that messing with GCD or has short duration on their DOTs or has any kind of requirement that will mess up the caster for group benefit(say hello to the Stone Giant). I don't want this ability to be nerfed 1 update after it will be changed into frost damage skill. Shalks way too good so that 1 buff can make them OP
When did i say it would always apply chilled and that nothing should be sacrificed for it? I've been pretty clear that it would help our AoE chilled application along with a little bit of single target since it's a main rotational skill used regardless on frostden. I've personally been wanting to ditch minor berserk, minor vuln and the bonus magic damage for a long time in return for a class kit that actually synergises with itself and has more than 4 damage skills, I'm fairly sure most people who have seen my comments and talk with me about this topic know this as well. How is frost damage shalks suddenly overpowered when it's change barely effects regular magden while helping the struggling frostden a lot?
A little bit of math, that doesn't work as intended in our game:
• there is a tank set, that creates small whirls of ice around while blocking and it's said that the base chance to apply chilled is 15%, but with 1h charged it provides 100% uptime on chilled always without any brainpower to use it - just hold your block;
• frost shalks chilled proc chance = 5%[base aoe direct damage]×(1+100%[Elemental Force]+220%[Charged]+60%[CP])=24%, that ain't much at first glance but if we take into account uptime it would be even worse;
• nobody really know the proc chance of Winter's Revenge, but without frost staff it alone can provide 50-60% uptime.
The real problem here is that ANY Winter's Embrace ability will have ~10% better chance to apply chilled and ~20% more uptime on chilled than any other ability UNLESS it specifies directly in the skill's description. A small pitiful number on skill that can only hit once every 3 seconds will raise your uptime only by 10%, that almost worthless unless you use it as only source of chilled
So. In your last comment you were saying it would be broken if it could apply chilled and do frost damage and now you're saying it would be useless if it could apply chilled since the number is low. The number is small, but it does still apply chilled on one of our rotational skills with a chance in AoE every 3 seconds.
I definitely can't see the line: to be reliable source of chilled it should have 15% at base which would make it OP(that's what I meant in the first place), otherwise return is diminished so that there will be almost no difference whether it would be frost or magic damage, and tank can apply aoe chilled with 100% uptime, so what's the point of your change other than {+6% more damage of this skill +10% uptime on aoe chilled} which equally means less than 3% aoe and single target dps? On trash fight even Frozen Device will apply chilled more regularly. Your pov sounds for me as one of those lines in patch notes where devs say something like "we have increased frost damage on Frostbite by 2%, but upon next patch we will buff fire staves by 2% so that the gap will never narrow, and btw here is your frost spammable as you asked with 100% chilled chance - enjoy". The changes are good but the gap will never narrow unless steps we are doing will be big enough.
It isn't supposed to be really reliable. It's an extra chance in aoe on a rotational skill. And you're also forgetting that the fact it would deal frost damage means it will gain bonuses from frostbite, elemental sucession and ysgramor's birthright rather than just war maiden. These add up to a meaningful buff that isn't hard to do relative to other changes zos has done in the past.
It will be just 3% extra dps, nonetheless nobody runs war maider or ysgramor's birthright to buff just 3 skills. The cange to frost reach was noticeable ~5k dps increase while nobody even notices your change. That's, my friend, sounds like a change for the sake of change
Exactly, if the entire kit isn't magic damage, war maiden isn't getting it's full value, it's also one set where as there are more that work with frost shalks. why should deep fissure remain magic damage? A change for the sake of change? No. There's valid arguments that we've argued to you time and time again and you refuse to listen to them.
According to my latest calculation the entire 5th bonus of Frostbite equal to the bonus of fire staves so that means even if all Warden's abilities will deal frost damage there will be no point in running Frostbite over even Julianus with double fire staves other than buffing Winter's Revenge and frost shalks as they are considered as aoe not single target.
So we should just give up? No.
We should fight for something that will exceed with Frostbite equipped not just one skill that will benefit both Warden's archetypes we need better Unstable wall of elements for everyone since The fire one overperforms significantly. We need such buffs, sets and skills that directly benefit only Frostden so that the gap between Frostden and Magden will be narrowed or even eliminated. We should ask for changes that support dual frost staves dd setups. Here is an example why:
Do you remember the first introduction of Frostbite and how it was buffed during pts cycle? Have you ever wondered why devs have buffed the first line of 5th bonus(from +6% to 8% frost damage) rather than damage to chilled and brittled enemies? Because the bonus of damage dealt to chilled and brittled enemies help anyone even if he doesn't wield frost staff because it doesn't require you to apply them, so that if tank can keep enemies under Brittle anyone can get FREE 6% bonus damage done, while the frost damage line beneficial only for the person who is trying to apply those effects. Name any other Warden ability that will benefit from Frostbite more than from fire staves, if it will become frost. Imagine if you have already succeeded and Frost shalks is a real skill, what is your next step? And step after that? Can you see a 3 turn checkmate(aka 3 things that should be done to make Frostbite and Frostden better than fire staves in general except some builds that won't benefit from Frostbite but would be viable without frost skills)? If we want to win we need a proper plan that everyone agrees with or we will turn into another "Stamwhip" group(no offense I'm with you, but I don't want the same fate for anyone of being unheard)
how can you expect for everyone to agree with something? people are adverse to change based on our conversation it seems like you yourself are a prime example of this, a majority of people want at least frost shalks to happen, not specifically all of animal companions, which is fine, whatever. Frost Shalks is a genuine change that helps out our archetype, it's not the only thing that should happen, but it's the next step. If we focus on pushing one thing at a time it's more likely to happen since more people can rally around it, and zos can clearly see what to do. I am under the impression that you think we will just give up after this? That is not what is going to happen. It's just that this change is relatively easy for zos to do, effective in what we need, and does not negitively effect anyone involved in it unless they really like overcharged or war maiden. I'm not going to keep explaining everything we've clearly said basically hundreds of times over, because it feels like i'm talking to a brick wall. yes, the fire staff wardens will benefit from this as well, but they're always benefiting more over other specs because of E+E, which is another problem in of itself and the fact that the (now 10%) ST dmg bonus effects light attacks when shock staff's one doesn't. we need more frost damage attacks, another winter's embrace one would be awesome but that requires a lot more work than frost shalks. deep fissure's place as an aoe and gameplay anchoring skill on our main rotation (that we cannot go without) makes it a perfect candidate for the change. see every other reason in other comments we've already exchanged.
As you have not suggested any further steps here is how we can make frost viable without buffing entire class:
• we need frost shalks but not in the form you suggest - keep the Major Fracture as a base ability feature, but remove it on both morphs for the extra attack like we have in stamina morph, change the element of shalks into frost for magic morph(or alternatively provide us with such ability that has no debuffs applied to it and completely identical in what we want, so that we can have a smooth rotation of Stamden on Frostden), that way we will not delete mass magicasteal from the hands of healer and tank and they will support group with Fracture while DDs will be more focused on dealing damage;
• we need new or reworked frost ultimate that will be different from the bear that boosts dps by the same amount but doesn't have any benefit from fire staves(that is the hardest part but necessary because the bear is the hardest hitting ability we have and something similar to the Storm Atronach of Sorc will deal a little bit less damage maybe even let it be without execute condition for the sake of being chilled application and give it a synergy);
• we need 2nd five piece set other than Medusa or Sorrow that will provide a benefit only for those who run dual Ice staves, something like True-Sworn Fury, but with conditions of doubling "after you've applied chilled" and quadrupling or tripling for the sake of balance "after you applied Brittle" - that will be an ideal variant that support our playstyle and create internal synergy within the class: if you spec into Frostden, you will have higher crit chance and crit damage but with less raw damage; and if you spec into Magden, you have less crit damage and crit chance(unless you are in the group where Brittle is present) but your unmodified damage is higher and you have access to an execute via bear ultimate.
If you have any other suggestions, I am listening...1 -
Trixterion✭✭Oh man, ice wraiths and ice spikes instead of bugs! What a huge miss by ZOS
Interesting idea, but since Ice Wrath has exactly 3 types of attack(Generic LA, Dive Bomb from below and Rush the Line) and 2 out 3 has aoe component would it be cooler to have one as an ultimate? However Ice Spikes instead of shalks sounds fine either.1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Oh man, ice wraiths and ice spikes instead of bugs! What a huge miss by ZOS
unfortunately the problem therein lies with the initial design of the class, that's not something that can change though. damage types can, however.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
Darkstorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
It's not impossible to change. DKs saw a big change to class skill aesthetics with the Stone Fist skill becoming a big AOE smash, and then firing off three molten rock chunks one at a time. Sorcs had a similar thing with Bound Armaments, and then Crystal Weapon. So it's not too wild to hope ZOS might create a unique ice spike animation variant for one of the Shalk morphs.ESO_Nightingale wrote: »
The more I think of it, the more I like it too. I'm glad we have a spammable option now, but it's still a frost staff spammable and not a proper class spammable. So if I want to "play my way" and be a frost mage with a frozen greatsword... it ain't much use.0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Darkstorne wrote: »
It's not impossible to change. DKs saw a big change to class skill aesthetics with the Stone Fist skill becoming a big AOE smash, and then firing off three molten rock chunks one at a time. Sorcs had a similar thing with Bound Armaments, and then Crystal Weapon. So it's not too wild to hope ZOS might create a unique ice spike animation variant for one of the Shalk morphs.ESO_Nightingale wrote: »
The more I think of it, the more I like it too. I'm glad we have a spammable option now, but it's still a frost staff spammable and not a proper class spammable. So if I want to "play my way" and be a frost mage with a frozen greatsword... it ain't much use.
that doesn't work for animal companions though. warden is fauna/flora and frost and deep fissure specifically is in animal companions. it so it needs to have an actual animal elements to it, so keeping the shalks is the best way to do that, just changing the firey looking effects, sounds and damage type to frost. something like an ice spike could be on a reworked crystallised slab or frozen retreat though.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
Trixterion✭✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Darkstorne wrote: »
It's not impossible to change. DKs saw a big change to class skill aesthetics with the Stone Fist skill becoming a big AOE smash, and then firing off three molten rock chunks one at a time. Sorcs had a similar thing with Bound Armaments, and then Crystal Weapon. So it's not too wild to hope ZOS might create a unique ice spike animation variant for one of the Shalk morphs.ESO_Nightingale wrote: »
The more I think of it, the more I like it too. I'm glad we have a spammable option now, but it's still a frost staff spammable and not a proper class spammable. So if I want to "play my way" and be a frost mage with a frozen greatsword... it ain't much use.
that doesn't work for animal companions though. warden is fauna/flora and frost and deep fissure specifically is in animal companions. it so it needs to have an actual animal elements to it, so keeping the shalks is the best way to do that, just changing the firey looking effects, sounds and damage type to frost. something like an ice spike could be on a reworked crystallised slab or frozen retreat though.
Frozen Retreat is too small to use it as semi-spammable. As shalks and blastbones was initially designed as semi-spammables and so-called delayed aoe damage, it would be hard to come up with something that will serve the same purpose and will be easy to use at the same time(lol, we just press the button without ground targeting and they fire in the direction we a looking at, skeleton however still have to find its way) because semi-spammables have to be either homing abilities or just one directional like shalks. Shalks thought have other problem right now: in the heat of a battle you can activate them and any ability timer(both integrated and Action Duration Reminder) insist that it will hit after 3 seconds, but it WON'T because unlike with blastbones the only indication we have that you are going to hit with this skill is a small turquoise circle around the player and if it's not appearing while timers say that it should, you've potentially lost from 1 to 3 seconds. That's why addon exclusively for shalks was made so that you will lose only 1 second instead of 3. I wonder if we can ask at least to fix it0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Darkstorne wrote: »
It's not impossible to change. DKs saw a big change to class skill aesthetics with the Stone Fist skill becoming a big AOE smash, and then firing off three molten rock chunks one at a time. Sorcs had a similar thing with Bound Armaments, and then Crystal Weapon. So it's not too wild to hope ZOS might create a unique ice spike animation variant for one of the Shalk morphs.ESO_Nightingale wrote: »
The more I think of it, the more I like it too. I'm glad we have a spammable option now, but it's still a frost staff spammable and not a proper class spammable. So if I want to "play my way" and be a frost mage with a frozen greatsword... it ain't much use.
that doesn't work for animal companions though. warden is fauna/flora and frost and deep fissure specifically is in animal companions. it so it needs to have an actual animal elements to it, so keeping the shalks is the best way to do that, just changing the firey looking effects, sounds and damage type to frost. something like an ice spike could be on a reworked crystallised slab or frozen retreat though.
Frozen Retreat is too small to use it as semi-spammable. As shalks and blastbones was initially designed as semi-spammables and so-called delayed aoe damage, it would be hard to come up with something that will serve the same purpose and will be easy to use at the same time(lol, we just press the button without ground targeting and they fire in the direction we a looking at, skeleton however still have to find its way) because semi-spammables have to be either homing abilities or just one directional like shalks. Shalks thought have other problem right now: in the heat of a battle you can activate them and any ability timer(both integrated and Action Duration Reminder) insist that it will hit after 3 seconds, but it WON'T because unlike with blastbones the only indication we have that you are going to hit with this skill is a small turquoise circle around the player and if it's not appearing while timers say that it should, you've potentially lost from 1 to 3 seconds. That's why addon exclusively for shalks was made so that you will lose only 1 second instead of 3. I wonder if we can ask at least to fix it
it depends, if frozen retreat was given a rework to completely change the function of the skill, like crystal weapon or bound armaments, it could work. but it just depends on what the skill would do.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX2 -
Trixterion✭✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Darkstorne wrote: »
It's not impossible to change. DKs saw a big change to class skill aesthetics with the Stone Fist skill becoming a big AOE smash, and then firing off three molten rock chunks one at a time. Sorcs had a similar thing with Bound Armaments, and then Crystal Weapon. So it's not too wild to hope ZOS might create a unique ice spike animation variant for one of the Shalk morphs.ESO_Nightingale wrote: »
The more I think of it, the more I like it too. I'm glad we have a spammable option now, but it's still a frost staff spammable and not a proper class spammable. So if I want to "play my way" and be a frost mage with a frozen greatsword... it ain't much use.
that doesn't work for animal companions though. warden is fauna/flora and frost and deep fissure specifically is in animal companions. it so it needs to have an actual animal elements to it, so keeping the shalks is the best way to do that, just changing the firey looking effects, sounds and damage type to frost. something like an ice spike could be on a reworked crystallised slab or frozen retreat though.
Frozen Retreat is too small to use it as semi-spammable. As shalks and blastbones was initially designed as semi-spammables and so-called delayed aoe damage, it would be hard to come up with something that will serve the same purpose and will be easy to use at the same time(lol, we just press the button without ground targeting and they fire in the direction we a looking at, skeleton however still have to find its way) because semi-spammables have to be either homing abilities or just one directional like shalks. Shalks thought have other problem right now: in the heat of a battle you can activate them and any ability timer(both integrated and Action Duration Reminder) insist that it will hit after 3 seconds, but it WON'T because unlike with blastbones the only indication we have that you are going to hit with this skill is a small turquoise circle around the player and if it's not appearing while timers say that it should, you've potentially lost from 1 to 3 seconds. That's why addon exclusively for shalks was made so that you will lose only 1 second instead of 3. I wonder if we can ask at least to fix it
it depends, if frozen retreat was given a rework to completely change the function of the skill, like crystal weapon or bound armaments, it could work. but it just depends on what the skill would do.
I agree, rework of a useless morph into something useful with 200% extra chilled status due to the passive would be welcome, if it will become either one directional or homing or at least it would require it to be without both cc condition and cc teleportation to be viable as dps skill2 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Trixterion wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Darkstorne wrote: »
It's not impossible to change. DKs saw a big change to class skill aesthetics with the Stone Fist skill becoming a big AOE smash, and then firing off three molten rock chunks one at a time. Sorcs had a similar thing with Bound Armaments, and then Crystal Weapon. So it's not too wild to hope ZOS might create a unique ice spike animation variant for one of the Shalk morphs.ESO_Nightingale wrote: »
The more I think of it, the more I like it too. I'm glad we have a spammable option now, but it's still a frost staff spammable and not a proper class spammable. So if I want to "play my way" and be a frost mage with a frozen greatsword... it ain't much use.
that doesn't work for animal companions though. warden is fauna/flora and frost and deep fissure specifically is in animal companions. it so it needs to have an actual animal elements to it, so keeping the shalks is the best way to do that, just changing the firey looking effects, sounds and damage type to frost. something like an ice spike could be on a reworked crystallised slab or frozen retreat though.
Frozen Retreat is too small to use it as semi-spammable. As shalks and blastbones was initially designed as semi-spammables and so-called delayed aoe damage, it would be hard to come up with something that will serve the same purpose and will be easy to use at the same time(lol, we just press the button without ground targeting and they fire in the direction we a looking at, skeleton however still have to find its way) because semi-spammables have to be either homing abilities or just one directional like shalks. Shalks thought have other problem right now: in the heat of a battle you can activate them and any ability timer(both integrated and Action Duration Reminder) insist that it will hit after 3 seconds, but it WON'T because unlike with blastbones the only indication we have that you are going to hit with this skill is a small turquoise circle around the player and if it's not appearing while timers say that it should, you've potentially lost from 1 to 3 seconds. That's why addon exclusively for shalks was made so that you will lose only 1 second instead of 3. I wonder if we can ask at least to fix it
it depends, if frozen retreat was given a rework to completely change the function of the skill, like crystal weapon or bound armaments, it could work. but it just depends on what the skill would do.
I agree, rework of a useless morph into something useful with 200% extra chilled status due to the passive would be welcome, if it will become either one directional or homing or at least it would require it to be without both cc condition and cc teleportation to be viable as dps skill
having chilled as prerequisite for a bonus effect like how boneyard works with corpses could be a cool concept, but for what actual type of damage ability i'm still unsure.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX1 -
LeHarrt91✭✭✭✭✭
✭So has anyone been able to test this buff for PvE? if so what are your results?
Im assuming Bear ulti will still be best but would be nice if we could use Ice Comet/ Northern Storm.PS NA 1800+ CP
Have played all classes.
Warden Main0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So has anyone been able to test this buff for PvE? if so what are your results?
Im assuming Bear ulti will still be best but would be nice if we could use Ice Comet/ Northern Storm.
Icy Rage does have a niche in vSS but i still have yet to explore more situations where you'd want ice comet/icy rage over double bear.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Quite right.
Frost Shalks would do wonders but at the very least we need an actual damage morph of Arctic Blast as well as some additional utility out of the never-used Frozen Retreat.
We can only hope there is a big class balance/identity patch coming in q4. The last one we had was in dragonhold which was a bit over 1.5 years ago i think in the next one they do we will see some frost related changes given how big this community has gotten in 4 years and how they've recently implemented some help for the archetype. Heck, most of the last year and a half has been cp work and standardisation/hybridisation on non-class skills and sets. It's definitely time next patch.Edited by ESO_Nightingale on August 3, 2021 4:44PMPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX1 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@ESO_Nightingale With the changes to Reach, have you tried this combo for pve?- 2x Master Ice Front Bar.
- 2x Maelstrom Ice Back Bar.
- 5x Bahsei or Siroria Body.
- 5x Frostbite Jewelry/Head/Shoulder.
Master Staff giving a constant +600 spell damage seems easy to keep up and too good to pass up, but it means no Kilt.
Frostbite also means no MS/Medusa. Seems like it'd have much lower crit chance.. not sure it's worth. Maybe Master + MS/Siroria over Frostbite/Siroria.PC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »@ESO_Nightingale With the changes to Reach, have you tried this combo for pve?- 2x Master Ice Front Bar.
- 2x Maelstrom Ice Back Bar.
- 5x Bahsei or Siroria Body.
- 5x Frostbite Jewelry/Head/Shoulder.
Master Staff giving a constant +600 spell damage seems easy to keep up and too good to pass up, but it means no Kilt.
Frostbite also means no MS/Medusa. Seems like it'd have much lower crit chance.. not sure it's worth. Maybe Master + MS/Siroria over Frostbite/Siroria.
tried that but not with bah/sir, i was using mother's sorrow instead i think. i'm not exactly the best parser though.
i've not used siroria for a long time because i frankly hate that it forces me to stay in place, but i should, i've also never equipped bahsei, though i did get a couple of pieces that one time i went into rockgrove. i'm slow.
Edited by ESO_Nightingale on August 5, 2021 2:36AMPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭did a real quick parse with a similar master staff setup i'm using on my sorc
build
parse
oh, i just realised i still had the wrong morph of swarm from when i was messing with other things. my badEdited by Tannus15 on August 5, 2021 3:43AM1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭did a real quick parse with a similar master staff setup i'm using on my sorc
build
parse
oh, i just realised i still had the wrong morph of swarm from when i was messing with other things. my bad
can you post the parse with fetcher infection? very curious to see.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Edited by Tannus15 on August 5, 2021 5:44AM2 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
very interesting. kilt is huge for improving dps, glad to see the master staff being very viable. still lacking compared to a normal settup, frost shalks would help in getting us closer while giving us better aoe brittle chance to provide to groups. would at least be some incentive to run brittle on dps over support.Edited by ESO_Nightingale on August 5, 2021 5:53AMPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX2 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭now this will really mess with you
standard build, siroria, sorrow, kilt, pc slimecraw
changed fissure to sub assault
and finally siroria & rele
3 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭now this will really mess with you
standard build, siroria, sorrow, kilt, pc slimecraw
changed fissure to sub assault
and finally siroria & rele
excuse me wtfPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭now this will really mess with you
standard build, siroria, sorrow, kilt, pc slimecraw
changed fissure to sub assault
and finally siroria & rele
@Tannus15 That’s clever. Sub Assault is obviously the better morph, with double the damage per cast, but I never thought it would outperform Deep Fissure for a Magicka build.
It makes perfect sense though, you lost about 4k DPS from SA vs DF, but gained a GCD every 6s that could be used for a ~36k spammable (or 6k DPS gain, for a net increase of 2k). I’m also guessing Warden sustain issues disappear when you use a stamina skill every 6s. And with more spammables, Brittle uptimes should be great using SA with the new Frost Reach.3 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »now this will really mess with you
standard build, siroria, sorrow, kilt, pc slimecraw
changed fissure to sub assault
and finally siroria & rele
@Tannus15 That’s clever. Sub Assault is obviously the better morph, with double the damage per cast, but I never thought it would outperform Deep Fissure for a Magicka build.
It makes perfect sense though, you lost about 4k DPS from SA vs DF, but gained a GCD every 6s that could be used for a ~36k spammable (or 6k DPS gain, for a net increase of 2k). I’m also guessing Warden sustain issues disappear when you use a stamina skill every 6s. And with more spammables, Brittle uptimes should be great using SA with the new Frost Reach.
You'd get the poisoned status effect to proc as well.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX1 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭did a real quick parse with a similar master staff setup i'm using on my sorc
build
parse
oh, i just realised i still had the wrong morph of swarm from when i was messing with other things. my bad
You have no minor slayer with your setup and imperium doesn't effect so much of your abilities, I suspect you could do better with a few minor adjustments. I managed 88k, but I did pretty poorly on my parses, I'd like to see what you could pull off.
You'll see my weaving average totalled 30s wasted while yours was 14s, I cast Inner Light by mistake once and I cast Unstable Wall 2-3 times early instead of my spammable before the 10s duration was up.
Edit: Sent this before I saw your stamina morph tests. Figures! You could do even better by switching from High Elf to Dark Elf for the Stamina on Barbed Trap/Sub Assault.Edited by MashmalloMan on August 5, 2021 7:39AMPC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit2 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »now this will really mess with you
standard build, siroria, sorrow, kilt, pc slimecraw
changed fissure to sub assault
and finally siroria & rele
@Tannus15 That’s clever. Sub Assault is obviously the better morph, with double the damage per cast, but I never thought it would outperform Deep Fissure for a Magicka build.
It makes perfect sense though, you lost about 4k DPS from SA vs DF, but gained a GCD every 6s that could be used for a ~36k spammable (or 6k DPS gain, for a net increase of 2k). I’m also guessing Warden sustain issues disappear when you use a stamina skill every 6s. And with more spammables, Brittle uptimes should be great using SA with the new Frost Reach.
Couldn't you bump the damage more via using diamond's victory?PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0
