I WAS very excited about endeavours

Morgha_Kul

I feel the need to explain this again.

Suppose there's 100 people playing. If you make the price of things in the game extremely high, only a small percentage of the players will be able to acquire them. If you make them reasonably priced, more players will be able to purchase them.

Now, suppose the amount of money made is the same. Suppose you sell one item for $100, or you sell 50 items for $2 each. The amount is the same in the end, $100. However, the result is NOT equal.

The reason is that customers are PEOPLE. People have emotional reactions to things. If they are allowed to have things they want, they will be happy. If they're not allowed to, they will be unhappy.

Happy customers keep playing, and keep paying. More, they may recommend the game to others. Unhappy customers STOP playing, stop playing, and very likely discourage anyone else from joining the game with them.

A good reputation is hard to earn, and easy to ruin. A bad reputation is easy to get, and damn near impossible to shake. If the majority of the playerbase is unhappy, it's NOT good for business. This is where the saying, "The customer is always right" comes from. Keep the customers happy, and your business will thrive. Do otherwise... and you could find your business OUT of business.

EF321

So, people were not excited about 60 seals a day compared to store prices, so they made it 45 a day...

Vanathil

Balraw wrote: »

I play most days for at least an hour sometimes more but I consider myself a casual player. Endeavours are just another thing I will accumulate while I go about my normal daily play and I might get something nice from them eventually. Didn't really expect a company to give things away easily that was earning them money.

I do wonder about endeavour tokens though as today we are only getting 15 per task and 5k gold. What is the proper rate going forward or will it be variable?

Same here. I play the game on and off, it will accumulate at some point. First when I heard about endeavours months ago, I expected the worst, so at this rate I'm not even disappointed. *shrugs* and about those people who complain 'omg, doesn't worth it, too much grinding' come on guys, I just completed 2 of them by just doing the daily writs, the thing that I already did for years. Oh, by the way, that's 5k experience and not gold ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Spidder81

To be honest the way they have gone about this is almost sure to encourage people to just want to buy Crowns instead anyway. It is actually doing the opposite of what its supposed to be doing in my opinion.

Especially as for whatever reason the rewards are only 15 today from 20 yesterday. Will it go down to 10 tomorrow? Will it go back up? who knows.

Anthonyr87

danno8 wrote: »

cnyanes wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I can't log in yet, and won't be able to for several hours. Can someone give some examples of the prices please?

You get 20 seals for each daily... the apex mounts are 16000 each if I recall correctly.

So 60 per day max. 16000/60= 266 days of endeavors.

Well I completed todays endeavors without doing anything different so a free mount a year or so isn't something I would complain about, but it would be cool if you could do more to earn more.

I certainly don't expect them to set up a system where you could get an Apex mount every month just by spending 10 minutes every day doing simple tasks, but running Vet dungeons, or trials or larger # of kills in PvP as extra bonuses would be a good idea for those who wanted more.

they nerfed it from 20 per daily to 15... so it will be even bigger of a grind now. they REALLY care about their comminty

Michae

It's really funny how some people convert those into time spent to earn something.

"37 hours? I'd earn more by working!"

Yeah! Why play the game when you could be working, right? I think you got this ass backwards, the endeavors are hardly a chore. I did today's already just by logging in like everyday, getting few nodes from the survey (I left my character parked next to them) and then doing writs on that one character. It hardly took any time from my day.

As for the "grind", by which I mean time that takes to get those rewards it's not that bad as far as mmo's go. Is it any different than gathering siegemaster or gladiator proofs? It can be better than getting many rewards in game, since it's not rng. You're guaranteed some reward after a certain time you put in, and the tasks are so generic that to not complete them means you're not playing the game at all.

Could the system be more generous? Sure, but it didn't have to be there at all, and wasn't there at all for years. So I look at it as a bonus that'll get me something nice from time to time.

People will complain about anything, we had complaints about indriks or daily login rewards, so I'm sure no matter how else the Endeavor system would be played out many people would complain regardless.

The system rewards most those who play everyday, as does everything in an MMO really. People who play everyday get the most, it's a staple of the genre. Endeavor is nothing out of ordinary. And things taking time is also a given in an MMO. Just look at people complaining they blew through new quest content on the release day. They need some long term goals to keep playing, and systems like those provide.

So my final verdict on Endeavors is:

Let's see how it goes.

jaws343

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I feel the need to explain this again.

Suppose there's 100 people playing. If you make the price of things in the game extremely high, only a small percentage of the players will be able to acquire them. If you make them reasonably priced, more players will be able to purchase them.

Now, suppose the amount of money made is the same. Suppose you sell one item for $100, or you sell 50 items for $2 each. The amount is the same in the end, $100. However, the result is NOT equal.

The reason is that customers are PEOPLE. People have emotional reactions to things. If they are allowed to have things they want, they will be happy. If they're not allowed to, they will be unhappy.

Happy customers keep playing, and keep paying. More, they may recommend the game to others. Unhappy customers STOP playing, stop playing, and very likely discourage anyone else from joining the game with them.

A good reputation is hard to earn, and easy to ruin. A bad reputation is easy to get, and damn near impossible to shake. If the majority of the playerbase is unhappy, it's NOT good for business. This is where the saying, "The customer is always right" comes from. Keep the customers happy, and your business will thrive. Do otherwise... and you could find your business OUT of business.

Except the problem with your scenario is in option 1 the item costs money and in option 2 the item is free. You want it all to be free snd complain when you can't get everything. There is appeasing a customer and opening the shop and letting them loot you. Players complaining about this want to loot for no reason other than they hate that it costs money to get the items otherwise. I guarantee you even if they changed it and lowered prices people would still complain that the other 15+ items were unobtainable because they got the radiant and thay isn't fair.

Septimus_Magna

Without weekly it takes 19 weeks to get a mount/skin for 8000 seals.
Lets hope the weekly tasks are netting more seals than the dailies.

I will definitely not buy the first cool mount/skin I see when I can afford it, it has to be something special if takes this long to build up seals.

Flamebait

Actually the dailies now award 45 a day which makes it 26 weeks for the regular mount. Also people say you get this for free is totally false. I pay for it with ESO+ and buying the chapters, the game plays like crap and has very little content added for the 300 a year that is spent on that so really this is a slap in the face. Also they did nothing because of the players, they actually hate the players very much from what I have seen. They only did this due to the fact that they were breaking the laws in multiple countries with in game gambling for real currency and regulators are starting to take action. If you ever really think that they value you in the slightest little bit then you really need to readjust your life because you have a bad idea of what being valued means.

thegreatme

Balraw wrote: »

I do wonder about endeavour tokens though as today we are only getting 15 per task and 5k gold. What is the proper rate going forward or will it be variable?

That's the problem a lot of us were talking about and worried over is we're likely to not even get a "consistent" rate that we can calculate out ahead of time and know what amount of time we have to invest to get what we want.

It hasn't even been 2 full days and they're already shifting goal posts around.

Yesterday it was 20 endeavors per task. Now its 15. Tomorrow it could be 100, or it could be 2. We don't know til the next day arrives.

If we could expect a consistent, predictable rate to plan accordingly, this wouldn't be a bad system, but we can already see now that's not what this is going to be. And that's completely to the pattern of ZoS and their Crown Crate schemes -- shift the goal posts so we never know what the value of anything actually is behind another convoluted "currency".

Its a predatory practice, and literally the only thing they'd need to do to make it less predatory is give us a consistent rate and keep to it. We can already see this to some extent in regular Crown Crates with gem prices.

So far, Radiant Apexes for gems are always 2,500 - 1,600 - and - 1,200 gems respectively. Apexes are always 400 gems. Legendary items always have a mix of mounts, costumes, pets, skins, and furnishings that are always 100 gems. And so on. We can plan consistently for how many gems we need and go from there, because the rate is always consistent.

Yes you still have the RNG gambling aspect but you can still decently estimate a ball-park range of how much you'll need to spend. If you want that one particular Apex for 400 gems you can bet you can direct-buy it if RNG isn't in your favor after buying between 30-45 crates, depending on your level of luck with other drops and duplicates.

And this is where Gem Exclusives and the precedent they've set is a problem, especially with this "limited time" garbage and now releasing them on Limited Time offer with NO prior warning (like with the Bloodroot Spriggan and Senche mount, ZOS never announced in its showcase it was coming). We started with rates we could expect. 400 gems for a unique mount. 100 gems for a pet. Et cetera.

Then it started becoming 300 gems for a pet. 500 gems for a mount. 600 gems for a skin. 600 gems for a mount. 800 gems for a mount, but now its just a lazy recolor.

ESO players have been saying for years we hate (like REALLY hate) the inconsistency. We just want to be able to know or reasonably predict what we're putting in before we invest, which is reasonable. Nobody wants to play a rigged game, except the one rigging it.

Its a shame too because I was somewhat looking forward to seeing what this new system would have to offer to help regain some interest in ESO that had been waning recently, but so far its just leaving a bitter taste in my mouth because I can already see further down the line how they're going to make this yet another system that COULD have been great but isn't.

Its not just about right now, its about what ZoS is going to do with it later.

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Happy customers keep playing, and keep paying. More, they may recommend the game to others. Unhappy customers STOP playing, stop playing, and very likely discourage anyone else from joining the game with them.

I actually tried to recommend ESO to a few people, but when they heard about the crown store, crates, and how aggressively ZoS tries to shove the Store in your face every time you log in, they decided to hard pass on even picking up the base game.

I think that says a lot about what potential future customers are willing to put up with to even give the game itself a chance when you paint them an honest picture of the direction their Store side of the game is doing. When your Store's practice makes people not want to play the game AT ALL, you've failed hard at something.

EF321 wrote: »

So, people were not excited about 60 seals a day compared to store prices, so they made it 45 a day...

At the risk of sounding rude, let's not pretend that wasn't to their plan all along. They didn't reduce it because players complained. They reduced it because they were always going to. Its by design, and it always has been.

VerboseQuips

So yesterday I thought "what a farce" when I saw that a radiant apex mount would cost 267 days of 60 daily seals of endeavours, which is way more than a crate season last.

I also calculated how much it'd cost me to buy all the collectibles from this crate season. I bought many things from the crown store directly when they were available outside of the crates, so I guess for other people, it'd be even more but here's my cost : 9.4 years. For a three-months-season.

I had thought it'd be really bad but I thought that at least a committed player who would never ever miss a day would be able to get a radiant at the very end of a season.

I already felt insulted yesterday. Then came today and the 45 endeavours and the even more worthless XP points that are used as an excuse for lowering the amount dripped on us. Meaning that the 267 days were way too optimistic. Maybe we'll even have days with only gold and XP and no seals? I wouldn't even be astonished anymore at this point.

Honnestly I feel disgusted.

The amount of costly stuff in the season has been increased with 7 apex instead of 6 and two "exclusive" stuff that are out of the "classical" crates tiers. The number of temporary gem-exclusives is increasing. Now during every event we see half an outfit set, either weapon or armor, which is crown-only, while the other half is obtainable through playing the events or spending tickets, so as to maximally scratch colletors itches, which feels dirty and scammy...

This spiralling, ever-expanding predation has to stop.

Morgha_Kul

jaws343 wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I feel the need to explain this again.

Suppose there's 100 people playing. If you make the price of things in the game extremely high, only a small percentage of the players will be able to acquire them. If you make them reasonably priced, more players will be able to purchase them.

Now, suppose the amount of money made is the same. Suppose you sell one item for $100, or you sell 50 items for $2 each. The amount is the same in the end, $100. However, the result is NOT equal.

The reason is that customers are PEOPLE. People have emotional reactions to things. If they are allowed to have things they want, they will be happy. If they're not allowed to, they will be unhappy.

Happy customers keep playing, and keep paying. More, they may recommend the game to others. Unhappy customers STOP playing, stop playing, and very likely discourage anyone else from joining the game with them.

A good reputation is hard to earn, and easy to ruin. A bad reputation is easy to get, and damn near impossible to shake. If the majority of the playerbase is unhappy, it's NOT good for business. This is where the saying, "The customer is always right" comes from. Keep the customers happy, and your business will thrive. Do otherwise... and you could find your business OUT of business.

Except the problem with your scenario is in option 1 the item costs money and in option 2 the item is free. You want it all to be free snd complain when you can't get everything. There is appeasing a customer and opening the shop and letting them loot you. Players complaining about this want to loot for no reason other than they hate that it costs money to get the items otherwise. I guarantee you even if they changed it and lowered prices people would still complain that the other 15+ items were unobtainable because they got the radiant and thay isn't fair.

You missed the point entirely, despite your attempt to move the goal posts. I was speaking about customer satisfaction and the implications of failing to achieve it.

Yuffie91

Apparently the daily endeavor was lowered from 20 to 15 making it even harder..thank you for making me excited about something and then crushing it

Jaimeh

One other thing to consider is that with the addition of seals and all the attention on them and the crates, I wonder if there will be an even bigger decrease in store items that can be bought directly for gold (which has been the case since the crates were introduced). This is what we should be pestering ZOS about, and not the micromanaging of seals/gems/crates.

AinSoph

It genuinely might be easier to actively trade in-game for gold to buy crowns than rely on this system.

daim

Endeavors reeks of bad company policy. They only did this so they can avoid possible legal loot box sues and say you can "earn" everything in-game.

Tethilia

Just want to remind you, the item is not free if it is unobtainable.

Aektann

AinSoph wrote: »

It genuinely might be easier to actively trade in-game for gold to buy crowns than rely on this system.

Exactly! You'll get what you want much faster by buying crown crates for gold

RedTalon

The amounts will keep shifting from day to day, 20 per daily and now 15 per daily. Soo no way to figure the system currently

Viewsfrom6ix

AinSoph wrote: »

It genuinely might be easier to actively trade in-game for gold to buy crowns than rely on this system.

Yeah, this could be very well be true. Assuming the rate is 300:1, you'd need 20.5m to buy enough crowns to open 205 crates for gems to get the radiant apex.

Farming 20.5m is easier than earning 45 SoE per day for 16000 SoE.

Viewsfrom6ix

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

Simple question. Would you rather play the game you're already playing for 133 hours (assuming it takes 30mins to get 60 SoE) to get an apex radiant mount or pay $489 to buy crowns and open crates and convert to gems to buy the apex radiant mount?

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gIE9FV7NG2Dw4nvY8nZFPdB9uAMVXO2odUgXB9JGZCk/htmlview

The difference is that, IF it were just a matter of hours of play it wouldn't be all that bad. But as it stands we are looking at the first person to be able to afford an Apex Radiant mount sometime in February/March of 2022. Possibly much longer now that we know that its NOT a steady 60 per day, since post reset the day 2 endeavors are 45 per day. which depending on how the rotation works out is going to lead to a variance in the averages.

We know that this was a move by ZOS and ultimately Microsoft to avoid legal actions. But the scale of said gesture could have gone a long way to boost consumer confidence and gain a more sizable good will. This thus far, leans more to it being a method to check some legal and internal boxes than winning over the community with some more good will, and engaging activities.

You're right! Let me rephrase the question then. Would rather play the game everyday for atleast 30mins for 266 ~ 365 days (because the lowered the daily) or pay $489 to buy crown crates to get the apex radiant mount?

VaxtinTheWolf

Ha, I've said it already and in another prediction thread I guessed it'd take like 4 months for a 16 gem item. We still have to wait on the Weekly rewards to judge completely but I honestly believe that it'll never go above 500 Seals on that task, and you'll only pick 1/3 total. At least we now know that if something drops to a 5 Seal reward daily, you'll potentially be 'compensated' with some extra gold, experience or who knows, they might throw a couple of Crown Poisons in this system too! Such joyous Excitement!..

Lady_Galadhiel

AinSoph wrote: »

It genuinely might be easier to actively trade in-game for gold to buy crowns than rely on this system.

I am still hoping that one day they will implement a system to buy crates with gold.
Unlikely I know.

winterscrolls229prerb18_ESO

Sorry, 60 per day was good. Not to fast to override anything, not to slow not to care.

45 just creates bad will and resentment every time i'm exposed to the system. Better to have deleted it and just left it paid than being a constant generator of bad will. Why did you do this?

what_the

cnyanes wrote: »

This was my process:
- Oh yes, endeavours are such a great idea. I can't wait for them to come out!

Endeavours go live. Check the prices and how many seals you can get per week.
- Yeah, you know what... I wasn't even THAT excited really...

This was fully expected and discussed on the forums when they introduced the Endeavours idea a while back, so this should not be a surprise to anyone.

Spidder81

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

It genuinely might be easier to actively trade in-game for gold to buy crowns than rely on this system.

I am still hoping that one day they will implement a system to buy crates with gold.
Unlikely I know.

Even if they did it would probably cost 50,000,000 gold for 1 crate haha

Elsonso

EF321 wrote: »

So, people were not excited about 60 seals a day compared to store prices, so they made it 45 a day...

Get used to it. Two factors are at work here.

1. As advertised, there is no fixed reward for Endeavors. The tasks will change daily. The rewards can, as well. Yesterday, 20 per Endeavor. Today, 15 per Endeavor. Eventually, I expect that we will get to less than 10 per Endeavor, after the weekly ones come out. This could change every day.

In addition to other more common items, Endeavors reward a brand-new currency called Seals of Endeavor, with the amounts varying based on the day and challenge level of the Endeavors themselves.

2. They are constantly watching the uptake of these Seals. To get myself into the proper frame of mind, I imagine that they think of these Seals as being made of radioactive uranium. They don't want to touch them, and they don't want you to touch them, either.

Darkandsinful wrote: »

Endeavors were not put into the game because they wanted to do it, they were put in because they had to. https://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/for-everyone/responsible-gaming/loot-boxes/

Doesnt mean they have to make it easy to get just has to be a way to get them in game.

The observant will notice that, despite the sale of Zenimax Media to XBox being decided last year, ZOS waited until the deal was final to roll out the Endeavors announcement. This could simply be how long it took them to put this together, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt. My gut says that if the deal had fallen through, they would have tossed the Endeavor system in the trash before we ever heard about it.

gariondavey

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

So my boss came to me today and said: You've been working here for a year now, havent you? Listen, remember those luxury cars parking in front of our building, those cool rides you could never afford? Here is a a thing, I will give you one of those cars every 6 months, you just do your job as you did before, how does it appeal to you? Cool?

Me: Wow, thanks man, thats great.

Other ESO players: Only one for a half of a year? Nah, this is ***, Only Ferrari? Where is Masseratti? You just want to use me as always.

Lmao. Truth.

NorthernNightmare

they did this because of the xbox new rules didnt they?

of course they would make it insane. almost a year for one mount

They N E V E R wanted this in the first place, they were forced too

[snip]

edit: YOOO They LEGIT nerfed the rates?
and here I was wanting to come BACK to eso

smh

[edited for bashing]

ADarklore

Am I the only one who never even heard of Endeavors until last night when one popped up on my screen telling me I accomplished one when I never even knew they existed?!?

I honestly could care less about them... I'm not one for focusing on daily or weekly anything... I have too many quests to complete to worry about such things.