Macro

LashanW

furiouslog wrote: »

The process, as I understand it, is to interrupt your own connection at the start or middle of the attack, execute the rotation, and re-establish the connection. The server gets the commands all at once, and will catch up. The target player sees no indication that they were ever being attacked until the rotation is over and has been applied, and they have had no opportunity to fire a single skill, block, drop a pot, nothing. The log will show a well timed rotation within the GCD parameters, so there is no proof of anything.

Most combat actions cannot be performed without the "go ahead" from the server. Skill activations and even barswap doesn't work if your connection to the server is interrupted. But you can still move around, jump and dodge (though the dodge won't consume any stamina).
When you activate a skill, it's the server that executes it and sends you the result, which you see on your screen. There's is no buffer that stores up your actions over a period of offline time and send them all at once to server when connection is re-established. Even if some cheating program implements that, server just wouldn't accept such a buffer. It just doesn't work that way in this game.

Lag switching works well in games that uses peer to peer connections (like Dark Souls PvP), not here where you can't even sneeze unless server gives you the ok.

furiouslog wrote: »

And if the problem is the game design and some skills, why is it that can I anticipate or react to some snipes, and not others? Why are there some players who manage to effectively force a desync every time? Is it just random? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm acknowledging that it's not clear evidence of a lag switch. It's also not clear evidence to the contrary. I'm saying it's uncertain.

Why do you think PvPers often complain about server performance? Because that's where the problem lies most of the time. Snipe is notorious for its desynced attacks (imo it got worse when ZoS reduced the cast time of snipe). Performance in cyrodiil is just awful in general.

I'm not saying there are no cheaters in this game. I've seen people jump 20m in the air and go inside untagged enemy keeps in cyrodiil by jumping over keep walls. But this thread is about usage of macros, so let's not go there.

Idinuse

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2512949/#Comment_2512949

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »
» show previous quotes

Thank you for providing the quote, @Idinuse, using macros is against the terms of service. We certainly don't mind a thread being created to ask about this, but this is starting to delve into more detail than is acceptable on the forums so we are locking this thread.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2089721/#Comment_2089721

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hi @Leandor ,

Macros and addons that allow players to automate and perform multiple actions with a single keystroke is a violation of our Terms of Service. All examples you provided do fall under automation, and as such are not allowed via our Terms of Service.

Elsonso

Ackwalan wrote: »

oddbasket wrote: »

Is it ok to macro 1 keypress to say 'tyfg' in group chat? I'm kinda lazy.

That would be a hotkey not a macro. Hotkey are fine.

Yeah... no. Not fine. This has been asked, and an answer provided.
Whether they can detect someone doing this... that is a different question.

furiouslog

LashanW wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

The process, as I understand it, is to interrupt your own connection at the start or middle of the attack, execute the rotation, and re-establish the connection. The server gets the commands all at once, and will catch up. The target player sees no indication that they were ever being attacked until the rotation is over and has been applied, and they have had no opportunity to fire a single skill, block, drop a pot, nothing. The log will show a well timed rotation within the GCD parameters, so there is no proof of anything.

Most combat actions cannot be performed without the "go ahead" from the server. Skill activations and even barswap doesn't work if your connection to the server is interrupted. But you can still move around, jump and dodge (though the dodge won't consume any stamina).
When you activate a skill, it's the server that executes it and sends you the result, which you see on your screen. There's is no buffer that stores up your actions over a period of offline time and send them all at once to server when connection is re-established. Even if some cheating program implements that, server just wouldn't accept such a buffer. It just doesn't work that way in this game.

Lag switching works well in games that uses peer to peer connections (like Dark Souls PvP), not here where you can't even sneeze unless server gives you the ok.

furiouslog wrote: »

And if the problem is the game design and some skills, why is it that can I anticipate or react to some snipes, and not others? Why are there some players who manage to effectively force a desync every time? Is it just random? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm acknowledging that it's not clear evidence of a lag switch. It's also not clear evidence to the contrary. I'm saying it's uncertain.

Why do you think PvPers often complain about server performance? Because that's where the problem lies most of the time. Snipe is notorious for its desynced attacks (imo it got worse when ZoS reduced the cast time of snipe). Performance in cyrodiil is just awful in general.

I'm not saying there are no cheaters in this game. I've seen people jump 20m in the air and go inside untagged enemy keeps in cyrodiil by jumping over keep walls. But this thread is about usage of macros, so let's not go there.

If I accept your understanding of how it works, then how do the "fast attack" functions work bundled with the bots that are for sale on Patreon and Discord? Somehow, they are circumventing the GCD.

Also, FWIW, I'm not saying that you're wrong. My impressions about lag switches come entirely from watching youtube videos, some of which include ESO. Like I said, I've never done it, I have no proof, and my only suspicion that it might be happening was that if a single player was doing it significantly more consistently than the general population - but it's true that they might not be using a lag switch, they might be doing something else. Blaming lag switches could just be a rationalization.

But you are right, this is about macros. On the macro side of the equation, some people are saying that it's not possible to program a macro such that it will fire things off perfectly, the rationale being that it won't accept key presses in real time. It's also been stated that you can't program nay macro to be conditional. Both of these things are untrue.

There are AHK scripts available right now on github that allow you to adjust timing of skill firing based on ESO's GCD parameters, with various adjustment variables to handle latency and other factors. These have been around for years. I'm not going to link them, because TOS, but go ahead and google, you'll find them. They can record key presses so that if you exceed the GCD timing, it queues your skills so that they fire off in the correct sequence.

Presumably, ESO's API no longer transparently broadcasts channeled and projectile attacks in PVP areas. This is still possible to do in PVE. Let's say, for the sake of the general discussion, that it's still possible to detect a channeled or projectile attack via the API in Cyrodiil. If you are running a macro script that is programmed into a LUA addon that includes this queuing functionality, it can listen for events and properly sort, time, and queue responsive actions. So if you've developed a "perfect" rotation for your character that optimizes uptimes of speed, resistance, and sustain, it would be possible to start executing this rotation, but insert different sub-macro actions via key presses or server event triggers, then the standard rotation resumes once those events are over. Furthermore, these actions can be programmed to be conditional based on resource availability or other parameters. Because those actions can be queued and buffered client side, manually adjusted for the player's latency, and sent out with the correct timing, it can get pretty accurate at executing a rotation.

Even if no one programmed something that complex, several people in this thread have argued that programming a simple macro to execute a short sequence of attacks would not work because of lag, desyncs, etc, and that it's already hard enough to execute individual key presses in an environment where those things are going in. I don't understand the rationale there, because the argument is circular:

Player A: Macros would never work properly because you can't trust the reliability the skills firing off in the correct time and sequence due to lag and desyncs. Poor game performance would never let you use a macro.
Player B: But this player is perfectly executing the same attack rotation over and over again with the exact same timing, all precisely within the GCD parameters. How does that work?
Player A; Well, they are just good.

It makes no sense. If a person is manually executing a perfectly optimized rotation during an extended tower chase, then that person can also program macros to assist in the execution of that rotation. If you look at combat logs and see that the timing and firing of these skills are perfectly optimized for one player, but most other equivalently experienced and talented players are incapable of executing that same rotation with equal precision due to desyncs and server performance, it seems like the conclusion that those players are just naturally talented is far less probable than the likelihood that they are executing that rotation with the assistance of macros.

In other words, no matter how talented a player is, they'd eventually make mistakes, or the data that they are receiving on screen would be lagged or desynced, and cause delays in their skill firing. A skill would be .2 seconds off on occasion. The snippet of the log I posted shows a skill rotation that is executed without error. It approaches perfection. Every channeled and projectile attack is dodged or blocked when stam is available. Every attack sequence against a player is exactly the same, with the same exact timing. All of the self buffs, consumption of potions, application of HOTs, all executed in the same rotation with the same timing, except for streaks and attacks.

Knowing the performance issues we live with in Cyrodiil, and knowing what we know about macros, which is the simplest explanation for that: some form of automated assistance, or raw talent?

I've never been able to anticipate a channeled attack coming from off screen and roll dodge before it lands unless I hear it or see it first. I guess I suck way more at the game than everyone else? The log of player I linked executed their attack sequence and then roll dodged exactly right after the attack sequence was over within a tenth of a second, avoiding a burst of incoming attacks from multiple players. No delay at all. Have you ever done that? Do you know anyone who can? If you're running around and around a rock, streaking back and forth, trolling a group of 10 people doing 6K DPS to you, who are also constantly interrupting and stunning, how on earth would it be that you'd choose to block, roll dodge, and break free exactly when certain incoming attacks are launched while simultaneously executing your own perfectly optimized set of support skills and attacks? If they occasionally roll dodged or blocked when nothing was going on, I could maybe see it - but it happened any time a channel or projectile was about to hit. Perhaps it was just a coincidence, and because this was 10v1, it was just the overwhelming number of attacks - no matter what, they were going to dodge or block something. But I have more than one log for this player. It's the same thing every time. A static rotation of heals and buffs is perfectly executed, apart from responsive actions and attacks, which are also perfectly executed.

Aside from that, we're burying the lede a bit, which is the set of skills that are executed that make the attack sequence to be powerful in the first place: heavy-dizzy-heavy-dizzy-heavy-executioner, all within a 3 second time period. LAs were doing about 1.7K. The HAs were doing 3.3K (against the same player). How is that even possible? Some people have told me that it's a known bug that's been around for a while, and ZOS has never addressed it. Most of the melee stam players I encounter use this combo to one shot players. I don't know how it's possible. In tandem with several experienced PVP and PVE players, we've experimented for hours on a dummy and tried to execute this combo manually. We could not do it, even once. One explanation is that we just have not figured out the timing, or maybe are we are just bad at the game despite being able to do 0.8-0.9 LA/sec on a parse. Another explanation is that the necessary key presses and timing which allow firing an HA in 0.1 seconds prior to channeling a dizzy can be programmed into a macro and executed in a single key press.

It does not seem possible to me that anyone would be able to be that consistently perfect, but if anyone can provide a decent explanation beyond "they are just good and you suck" (and it's true that I suck, I'll concede that for the purposes of the discussion), I'd love to hear it.

LashanW

furiouslog wrote: »

If I accept your understanding of how it works, then how do the "fast attack" functions work bundled with the bots that are for sale on Patreon and Discord? Somehow, they are circumventing the GCD.

I've no idea what those bots are. Circumventing the skill GCD is simply not possible. None of the logs that were shown in this thread showed skill activations that were circumventing the GCD. Making your rotation almost identical to GCD is entirely possible. Just check cmx screenshots of top parse videos in youtube, they have a weaving average of below 30ms. (Weaving average is the wasted time that is extra to the GCD in between skill casts).

In logs the least count for time seems to be 100ms btw. So can't see details smaller than that.

furiouslog wrote: »

In other words, no matter how talented a player is, they'd eventually make mistakes, or the data that they are receiving on screen would be lagged or desynced, and cause delays in their skill firing. A skill would be .2 seconds off on occasion. The snippet of the log I posted shows a skill rotation that is executed without error. It approaches perfection.

I cannot speak for pvp, but in PvE, with practice and the addons to help you track stuff, you can perfect your rotation with very small downtime (less than 30ms) between skills. Human hand eye coordination has that capability.


In the above parse (3m dummy) weaving average is 18ms. Basically activating skills once every 1.018 seconds. Fight went on for nearly a minute. No missed light attacks. Counting barswaps the APM here was ~126. No macros. You can't use macros for a dynamic sorc rotation anyways (a macro wouldn't be able to account for skill prioritizing and crystal frag procs as they are random and unpredictable)

There are players who regularly do their rotations like this. Srrendar/Action Duration Reminder addons to track buff/DoT uptimes, GCD Bar addon as a visual indicator to track GCD, and practice lets you pull it off for extended durations in actual fights.

What I'm trying to say is, top end PvE players don't use macros in endgame. Macros won't help you get to the very top. And running macros can get your team wiped in hard content such as vCR+3 (imagine what would happen if a player running macros gets the voltaic overload mechanic)

Goregrinder

LashanW wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

If I accept your understanding of how it works, then how do the "fast attack" functions work bundled with the bots that are for sale on Patreon and Discord? Somehow, they are circumventing the GCD.

I've no idea what those bots are. Circumventing the skill GCD is simply not possible. None of the logs that were shown in this thread showed skill activations that were circumventing the GCD. Making your rotation almost identical to GCD is entirely possible. Just check cmx screenshots of top parse videos in youtube, they have a weaving average of below 30ms. (Weaving average is the wasted time that is extra to the GCD in between skill casts).

In logs the least count for time seems to be 100ms btw. So can't see details smaller than that.

furiouslog wrote: »

In other words, no matter how talented a player is, they'd eventually make mistakes, or the data that they are receiving on screen would be lagged or desynced, and cause delays in their skill firing. A skill would be .2 seconds off on occasion. The snippet of the log I posted shows a skill rotation that is executed without error. It approaches perfection.

I cannot speak for pvp, but in PvE, with practice and the addons to help you track stuff, you can perfect your rotation with very small downtime (less than 30ms) between skills. Human hand eye coordination has that capability.


In the above parse (3m dummy) weaving average is 18ms. Basically activating skills once every 1.018 seconds. Fight went on for nearly a minute. No missed light attacks. Counting barswaps the APM here was ~126. No macros. You can't use macros for a dynamic sorc rotation anyways (a macro wouldn't be able to account for skill prioritizing and crystal frag procs as they are random and unpredictable)

There are players who regularly do their rotations like this. Srrendar/Action Duration Reminder addons to track buff/DoT uptimes, GCD Bar addon as a visual indicator to track GCD, and practice lets you pull it off for extended durations in actual fights.

What I'm trying to say is, top end PvE players don't use macros in endgame. Macros won't help you get to the very top. And running macros can get your team wiped in hard content such as vCR+3 (imagine what would happen if a player running macros gets the voltaic overload mechanic)

That's the thing about top end players, bottom end players always think top end players are cheating.

Elsonso

Goregrinder wrote: »

That's the thing about top end players, bottom end players always think top end players are cheating.

My guess is that this causes the bottom end players to look into what it will take to cheat.

Jeremy

Tigertron wrote: »

Regular key presses don’t fire half the time. A macro would just make things worse. Might work if it was just a weave macro but even that would be more cumbersome than just weaving.

I disagree.

Weaving with a macro would be easier, especially while moving or jumping or during erratic and chaotic situations. That is why a lot of people who use macros like to purposely jump around you to try and exploit that advantage. They aren't just doing that because it makes them look stupid.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigertron wrote: »

Regular key presses don’t fire half the time. A macro would just make things worse. Might work if it was just a weave macro but even that would be more cumbersome than just weaving.

I disagree.

Weaving with a macro would be easier, especially while moving or jumping or during erratic and chaotic situations. That is why a lot of people who use macros like to purposely jump around you to try and exploit that advantage. They aren't just doing that because it makes them look stupid.

What does jumping around have to do with macro use? I am missing the connection? Also, what advantage are you exploiting. I have never found bunny hoppers to pose any real problems, in fact, all I see is a bullseye. For one, the physics in this game slow you down when you jump. Much easier to target a bunny hopper than someone moving on foot at the speed cap. AOEs still effect you while in the air. There is no advantage other than to perhaps confuse/annoy an opponent. They take the same damage and they are slower.

For the record, I am not saying that some macro use is not prevalent in this game. I think there are really three types.

1. Automating a light attack weave. Probably the simplest macro, and my guess is that it is pretty prevalent among mid tier try-hards in PVE. I think it is very rare among actual score pushers. In PVP, I think it is used far less often, but certainly not zero. Unfortunately, PVP tends to require mashing skill buttons to get them to fire from time to time, and macro use would not make this issue better.

2. PVP burst/bomb combos. I do think these exist and are used particularly by gankers. Admittedly, if they go off correctly, they can be powerful. The longer these sequences are, the more prone they will be to have issues. Either because they commit you to a sequence of evens, and you cant react, or because one of the skills, doesnt fire correctly, and everything down the line doesn't go off as planned. That said, not every well executed burst is automatically a Macro. People practice their combos for hours on dummies, and as stated above, people are very good and making them fire nearly perfectly within the GCD.

3. Automating non combat commands, chat window, inventory commands, etc. My position on this, who gives a flying you know what. Couldnt care less about these types of macros TBH.

Jeremy

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigertron wrote: »

Regular key presses don’t fire half the time. A macro would just make things worse. Might work if it was just a weave macro but even that would be more cumbersome than just weaving.

I disagree.

Weaving with a macro would be easier, especially while moving or jumping or during erratic and chaotic situations. That is why a lot of people who use macros like to purposely jump around you to try and exploit that advantage. They aren't just doing that because it makes them look stupid.

What does jumping around have to do with macro use? I am missing the connection? Also, what advantage are you exploiting. I have never found bunny hoppers to pose any real problems, in fact, all I see is a bullseye. For one, the physics in this game slow you down when you jump. Much easier to target a bunny hopper than someone moving on foot at the speed cap. AOEs still effect you while in the air. There is no advantage other than to perhaps confuse/annoy an opponent. They take the same damage and they are slower.

A lot of players struggle with weaving while moving or running in circles etc. It's also more difficult to hit a moving target twice than once.

Weaving with a macro - where you only have to target and hit once rather than twice - obviously makes that easier. It's not just done to "confuse/annoy" an opponent (neither of which it does, it just makes them look stupid). They do it to try and exploit their advantage that they only have to target and hit their opponent once instead of twice for the weave effect. That's why they are doing it. They're not doing it to try and confuse you, trust me. haha

Amottica

Tigertron wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Macros are not specifically mentioned anywhere in the ToS. The closest they get to being mentioned are in two instances where it states that you cannot use 3rd party software with the game, which is weirdly interpreted when you look at things like Tamriel Trade Center.

Isn't a macro technically 3rd party software? If you have a gamer's mouse that has extra buttons that can be programmed to play back macros, isn't the software that the mouse uses to record, save, and play back the macros 3rd party software?

As for using the Tamriel Trade Center add-on, using an approved add-on shouldn't be considered to be using 3rd party software. And as far as using the Tamriel Trade Center website to look up listings while playing ESO, that's no more cheating than using the UESPWiki website to look up quest information while playing ESO. So I don't understand what you mean by "weirdly interpreted when you look at things like Tamriel Trade Center."

You would also have to call the driver for the mouse a third party software. Even the OS is then considered 3rd party. I think they had programs like AHK in mind.

Correct. The issue is not that third-party software is being used but when that third-party software is starting to handle combat for you which is what the OP indicates is the case with their guildmates.

It is unfortunate that there are lesser skilled players in pretty much every game that choose to take shortcuts like this instead of learning how to play well. Guilds I have been in where they find a player hacking their gameplay with macros or other fraudulent means quickly kick them to the curb because they do not want to be known as a guild that cheats. It is always much better to learn to play the game right and the outcome is superior gameplay.

Goregrinder

Elsonso wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

That's the thing about top end players, bottom end players always think top end players are cheating.

My guess is that this causes the bottom end players to look into what it will take to cheat.

Those players should instead look into what it would take to achieve similar results. Magic tricks a magician performs are usually mind blowing, especially from good magicians...until you take the time and put the effort into learning exactly how those tricks work. Then you realize that it's not magic, it's just someone very highly skilled at sleight of hand and misdirection. The magician is still amazing, but no longer for performing "magic", but for having a high level of skill in various ways of tricking people.

You'll eventually realize that you and the magician aren't so different, and the only thing that separates the two of you is that one has developed a skill, while the other simply lacks it. You gotta go out and develop that skill, there are no shortcuts. Cheats aren't shortcuts, they're pretty obvious to spot especially for us experienced players. Put in the research, put in the practice time, put in the effort to improve over a set amount of time. Put in the work, get the rewards.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Jeremy wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigertron wrote: »

Regular key presses don’t fire half the time. A macro would just make things worse. Might work if it was just a weave macro but even that would be more cumbersome than just weaving.

I disagree.

Weaving with a macro would be easier, especially while moving or jumping or during erratic and chaotic situations. That is why a lot of people who use macros like to purposely jump around you to try and exploit that advantage. They aren't just doing that because it makes them look stupid.

What does jumping around have to do with macro use? I am missing the connection? Also, what advantage are you exploiting. I have never found bunny hoppers to pose any real problems, in fact, all I see is a bullseye. For one, the physics in this game slow you down when you jump. Much easier to target a bunny hopper than someone moving on foot at the speed cap. AOEs still effect you while in the air. There is no advantage other than to perhaps confuse/annoy an opponent. They take the same damage and they are slower.

A lot of players struggle with weaving while moving or running in circles etc. It's also more difficult to hit a moving target twice than once.

Weaving with a macro - where you only have to target and hit once rather than twice - obviously makes that easier. It's not just done to "confuse/annoy" an opponent (neither of which it does, it just makes them look stupid). They do it to try and exploit their advantage that they only have to target and hit their opponent once instead of twice for the weave effect. That's why they are doing it. They're not doing it to try and confuse you, trust me. haha

If this were a shooter with extremely limited hit boxes, I might agree with you. We have tab targeting and you just dont need to be that accurate with your cursor. ESO has effectively massive hit boxes, and jumping doesnt change that. I have never seen a scenario where someone was hopping and my light attack missed but my skill hit, or vice versa. Sure a macro means less button pressing, but that is not exclusive to when you are jumping. Being a bunny hopper in this game serves no competitive advantage, in fact, it just makes you easier to kill.

The only real correlation of bunny hopping and macro use that I see is that both are typically used by mediocre players.

Jeremy

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigertron wrote: »

Regular key presses don’t fire half the time. A macro would just make things worse. Might work if it was just a weave macro but even that would be more cumbersome than just weaving.

I disagree.

Weaving with a macro would be easier, especially while moving or jumping or during erratic and chaotic situations. That is why a lot of people who use macros like to purposely jump around you to try and exploit that advantage. They aren't just doing that because it makes them look stupid.

What does jumping around have to do with macro use? I am missing the connection? Also, what advantage are you exploiting. I have never found bunny hoppers to pose any real problems, in fact, all I see is a bullseye. For one, the physics in this game slow you down when you jump. Much easier to target a bunny hopper than someone moving on foot at the speed cap. AOEs still effect you while in the air. There is no advantage other than to perhaps confuse/annoy an opponent. They take the same damage and they are slower.

A lot of players struggle with weaving while moving or running in circles etc. It's also more difficult to hit a moving target twice than once.

Weaving with a macro - where you only have to target and hit once rather than twice - obviously makes that easier. It's not just done to "confuse/annoy" an opponent (neither of which it does, it just makes them look stupid). They do it to try and exploit their advantage that they only have to target and hit their opponent once instead of twice for the weave effect. That's why they are doing it. They're not doing it to try and confuse you, trust me. haha

If this were a shooter with extremely limited hit boxes, I might agree with you. We have tab targeting and you just dont need to be that accurate with your cursor. ESO has effectively massive hit boxes, and jumping doesnt change that. I have never seen a scenario where someone was hopping and my light attack missed but my skill hit, or vice versa. Sure a macro means less button pressing, but that is not exclusive to when you are jumping. Being a bunny hopper in this game serves no competitive advantage, in fact, it just makes you easier to kill.

The only real correlation of bunny hopping and macro use that I see is that both are typically used by mediocre players.

I think you're concentrating too much on the "jumping" in my comment. I am not just talking about hopping. I'm talking about players who go out of their way to move erratically around you while attacking. Jumping is just one aspect of that. And they are doing that to try and take advantage of their macros.

I've spoken to people who do this, and they say it's good against some players, especially ones who have trouble weaving while moving. It's why they do it. It's not to make themselves look stupid or easier to kill. It's so they can effectively weave while their opponent cannot. And there are some very good players who use this strategy in conjunction with macros. I've fought them and talked to them. They also aren't "mediocre" in the least. Trust me. They're actually very good.

This idea that only bad players use macros is incorrect.

fred4

I think some people in this thread are missing some crucial information. Everyone can perfectly execute a rotation time and time again, because you do NOT need to get the timing right with any precision at all. Look into the documentation of the PerfectWeave addon for this nugget:

"By default, after using a skill you can queue another one in 400ms, and it will fire automatically when GCD is over. If you try to queue two skills, then only the last one will be fired."

In other words you have a window of 600ms, from 400ms after the first skill to the 1000ms mark, to press another key for your second skill. The end result is the same. The second skill will fire precisely at the 1 second mark, e.g. at the beginning of the next GCD. If this sounds like a contradiction and you're asking yourself what the PerfectWeave addon is good for in that case, please bear with me.

In practice it's not as as simple, because light attacks and other actions are also involved. The optimal way of thinking about rotations is [light attack] -> [skill] -> [dodge or bash or bar swap], from experience. For example, if you try to do [skill] -> [light attack] -> [bar swap], that does not tend to work. The light attack won't fire. There is a rythm you need to adhere to, but it's still only 3 actions per second. The timings of when exactly you need to perform those actions within the 1 second GCD are pretty lax. Yet the end result of a reasonably well executed rotation is always precisely the same, as one of you has observed in the graphical logs they presented. This has nothing to do with the precision with which the inputs were made. Actions are briefly queued up until their respective timeout (GCD / light attack timeout) expires, then they fire at precisely the predetermined time. In other words, the precision you observe is the server's precision, not the player's!

Now I don't know exactly how the server works. Specifically I am wondering when a GCD starts. Is it based on the time you started combat and is it, therefore, personal to you or is it, as the name implies, a GLOBAL clock that runs on the server in 1 second ticks and that is COMMON to all players. Either way you get into the situation where the three things you can do within a GCD do not match up with the clock that the server is keeping. You might end up casting a skill or a dodge roll right at the beginning of the GCD, rather than a light attack. When that happens you can find that your light is not firing, for example. This happens to me from time to time and I am guessing you have probably observed this too. That is the problem that PerfectWeave is trying to fix. I believe it does not stem from a lack of precision of your rotation, but from not being synchronised with the server clock. A subtle distinction to be sure, but one that I think needs to be made. What good players do, IMO, is they instinctively become synchronised to the rythm of the GCD clock. As long as they are attuned to that basic 1-second rythm, they can be quite imprecise with when exactly they press keys within that second or they may indeed hammer keys a few times within each second.

Incidentally I believe that macros may actually be a hindrance rather than a help for achieving a good rotation, because they are not able to shift their rythm and attune to the server clock with the same flexibility a player can. This goes beyond the fact that you may be CCd and all manner of other things may happen that macros could not account for.

Moving on: I'll take your word for it that there is such a thing as a lag switch. However, in order for that to work, the ESO CLIENT would have to do the validation that you only fired one skill per second, then release a bunch of backlogged data packets to the server. I would be very surprised if that was the case with ESO. It is my understanding that the so-called "lighting patch" (1.6, I think), released in 2015, also included a lot of validation being shifted from the client to the server and that this was, in fact, so much work, it's when the Cyrodiil lag problems first started. Many people believe it had to do with visual effects, but I heard Fengrush opine that the lag introduced at that time had to do with server validations. At any rate, I would be very surprised, if ZOS left enforcement of the GCD to the client. I don't think a lag switch would work with ESO.

It seems more likely to me that many of the problems we experience have to do with our inputs not going to the server in a timely fashion (can't react) or the server not sending information to the client in a timely fashion (can't see what's going on / positional desyncs). I do, however, believe there is more going on with Snipe especially, because it has both a cast time and a travel time. People have mentioned the obvious delayed burst skills in this thread already, Shalks, Curse and so on. Thing is, there are many more and more subtle delayed burst skills. Dizzying has a cast time. Snipe has a cast time. Snipe also has a travel time as do, for example, destro light attacks. Snipe is probably so problematic when it's legitimate cast and travel delays add up with lag. Here is an example of a legitimate combo from a while back:

Snipe at point blank range -> Incap -> Execute.

The net result was: Snipe is cast, the target does not even know, cause the NB is behind them in Cloak / Crouch. Incap (before the ult delays) lands FIRST and stuns. Snipe lands afterwards, due to travel time (even at point blank range), but in the same second as Incap and is buffed by incap. The target is stunned and executed in the next GCD, while they can do nothing but try to break free.

Things are, perhaps, a bit murkier when you get Snipe spammed, but you have to consider that, by the time you know you are being attacked, the second Snipe may already be in the air, due to the travel time of the first. Furthermore the attacker may be moving towards you and the second Snipe may have a shorter travel time than the first. Also, if the first Snipe was fired from crouch, you will be stunned. I'll never forget the time, though, where a nightblade Snipe / Ambushed me. Ambush is a teleport. It's actually instant, unlike other gap closers. You get hit with both simultaneously and, if the Snipe was fired from crouch, you can get stunned and Incapped right after. You can see where I'm going with this. There's an 800ms cast time here (Dizzying, Snipe), a 400ms cast time there (ultimates), and there are travel times. People do get creative with this stuff. The GCD only guarantees that you can cast only one skill per second. It guarantess NOTHING about when those skills hit the target. Now add a bit of lag.

The ulti delays are also a double-edged sword, by the way. They have made comboing into an ultimate harder, but comboing from an ultimate easier. That's why ultis that stun (Leap, Dawnbreaker) now arguably make for better kill combos than before. The execute will often hit the target in the same GCD and is unavoidable.

Shantu

Have to admit...sometimes I wonder when I'm watching some of these YouTubers parsing at a .99 LA ratio.

Soul_Demon

Shantu wrote: »

Have to admit...sometimes I wonder when I'm watching some of these YouTubers parsing at a .99 LA ratio.

Whenever these threads pop up you get three things....those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered.

Most of the time you check forum join dates to see they have been around for like a year and yet will 'school' the others about how they game systems work while claiming subtly they are constantly told they are cheating the game but they are just superior to all other players in it.....its just you dont recognize their names.

relentless_turnip

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Have to admit...sometimes I wonder when I'm watching some of these YouTubers parsing at a .99 LA ratio.

Whenever these threads pop up you get three things....those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered.

Most of the time you check forum join dates to see they have been around for like a year and yet will 'school' the others about how they game systems work while claiming subtly they are constantly told they are cheating the game but they are just superior to all other players in it.....its just you dont recognize their names.

What proof? I have never seen evidence of macro use. Only that it is possible i.e. links to programmable mouse/gamepad. If someone can show me evidence of its use I'd gladly admit it's use. Yet I have been playing this for 3 years and macro claims have been broadcast at least monthly in my experience with no evidence of it.

Macros would be a total hindrance IMO as the actions continue to play out even when you need to do something else. You can't stop an heal for instance if 3 other skills are already queued up.

I do believe these claims are born of ignorance of how the combat functions at maximum efficiency. I have nothing to gain by denying its use, but I am simply saying no one has presented evidence of it. I think even server lag makes up a lot of these claims. Where the player is desynced by snipe or whatever and this is a daily occurrence during my playthroughs.

A lot of players will say l2p as the majority of these claims are born of ignorance. It is also a subject that is brought up regularly and gets tiresome. Also it is a common personality trait where others would rather blame losses on some form of unfair playing field. This is actually totally normal and is an inherent survival instinct. It is far healthier in situations such as these to just look at your own performance and work out how to better yourself. I personally assume I could have done something different or change my build in someway so I could have won.

karekiz

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Macros would be a total hindrance IMO as the actions continue to play out even when you need to do something else. You can't stop an heal for instance if 3 other skills are already queued up.

Why not just tell the Macro if "X" key is manually pressed to halt and then continue once the key input is finished?

Here is an example of it in EQ:

This uses a mixture of a plugin + Automated Macro at the same time with manual play:

/nuke on turns on the automated plugin
/nuke off turns it off

The plugin does the rotation however for burns I wanted something I can turn on/off with a button press.

|if statement 2
/if (${Me.AltAbilityReady[Fury of The Gods]} && !${Me.Song[Frenzied Devastation].ID} > 0) {
/nuke off <

---

Forced 1st Macro off to stop rotation to do burns <Heal in your case>
/delay 5
/alt act 1150
/echo Fury of the Gods Active
/while (${Me.Casting.ID} > 0) {
/delay 5
}
/alt act 840
/echo Arcane Fury Active
/while (${Me.Casting.ID} > 0) {
/delay 5
}
/alt act 515
/echo Improved Twincast Active
/while (${Me.Casting.ID} > 0) {
/delay 5
}
/alt act 1265
/echo Arcane Destruction Active
/while (${Me.Casting.ID} > 0) {
/delay 5
}
/nuke on <

---

Turns 1st macro back on at the end to continue rotation
}
/delay 1s

Its not 1:1 to your statment but you can indeed tell a macro to turn on/off based on conditions.

Also once EQ macros incorporate LUA <Being tested atm> into it. Yes everything here can be done with that.

relentless_turnip

karekiz wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Macros would be a total hindrance IMO as the actions continue to play out even when you need to do something else. You can't stop an heal for instance if 3 other skills are already queued up.

Why not just tell the Macro if "X" key is manually pressed to halt and then continue once the key input is finished?

Here is an example of it in EQ:

This uses a mixture of a plugin + Automated Macro at the same time with manual play:

/nuke on turns on the automated plugin
/nuke off turns it off

The plugin does the rotation however for burns I wanted something I can turn on/off with a button press.

|if statement 2
/if (${Me.AltAbilityReady[Fury of The Gods]} && !${Me.Song[Frenzied Devastation].ID} > 0) {
/nuke off <

---

Forced 1st Macro off to stop rotation to do burns <Heal in your case>
/delay 5
/alt act 1150
/echo Fury of the Gods Active
/while (${Me.Casting.ID} > 0) {
/delay 5
}
/alt act 840
/echo Arcane Fury Active
/while (${Me.Casting.ID} > 0) {
/delay 5
}
/alt act 515
/echo Improved Twincast Active
/while (${Me.Casting.ID} > 0) {
/delay 5
}
/alt act 1265
/echo Arcane Destruction Active
/while (${Me.Casting.ID} > 0) {
/delay 5
}
/nuke on <

---

Turns 1st macro back on at the end to continue rotation
}
/delay 1s

Its not 1:1 to your statment but you can indeed tell a macro to turn on/off based on conditions.

Also once EQ macros incorporate LUA <Being tested atm> into it. Yes everything here can be done with that.

I appreciate you taking the time to theorise, but again it is just further speculation. Wouldn't it just be easier to learn to press the buttons in the right order?

Apologies without evidence I remain unconvinced. That said I am impressed by your ability to demonstrate how it could be possible to use macros in a less intrusive way. I would say that it is another action you have to perform before being to press the button you need to press. I.e. you press your macro get hit by a combo and your health is reduced to 20% you have to stop your macro before making any other defensive action. Although the kill switch would not be governed by the GCD everything else around it is.

karekiz

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Apologies without evidence I remain unconvinced. That said I am impressed by your ability to demonstrate how it could be possible to use macros in a less intrusive way. I would say that it is another action you have to perform before being to press the button you need to press. I.e. you press your macro get hit by a combo and your health is reduced to 20% you have to stop your macro before making any other defensive action. Although the kill switch would not be governed by the GCD everything else around it is.

I more talk about PvE than PvP where you control and have knowledge of all the conditions being met.

IE If my HP <75% Cast Vigor -> Resume automated rotation. Player controls movement. If no target condition is met stop rotation etc.

Its far easier to create macros around something when you know exactly what is happening because it always happens. It seems your talking PvP which contains far more variations in gameplay.

*Edit: I recall previously reading about someone talking about ganking macros which would prolly be reliable enough since the intent is to kill a player before they react <I don't PvP so don't quote me on that>.

Also note EQ has GCD too. Every spell has basically the exact same GCD as ESO. Also wizards use Force weaving <That is covered in 1st macro> to weave AA nukes between each spell cast <Literally it is Light Attack Weaving with another name>. That is only part of the macro not the entire thing. No need to copy it all just the portion of start/stop.

Soul_Demon

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Have to admit...sometimes I wonder when I'm watching some of these YouTubers parsing at a .99 LA ratio.

Whenever these threads pop up you get three things....those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered.

Most of the time you check forum join dates to see they have been around for like a year and yet will 'school' the others about how they game systems work while claiming subtly they are constantly told they are cheating the game but they are just superior to all other players in it.....its just you dont recognize their names.

What proof? I have never seen evidence of macro use. Only that it is possible i.e. links to programmable mouse/gamepad. If someone can show me evidence of its use I'd gladly admit it's use. Yet I have been playing this for 3 years and macro claims have been broadcast at least monthly in my experience with no evidence of it.

Macros would be a total hindrance IMO as the actions continue to play out even when you need to do something else. You can't stop an heal for instance if 3 other skills are already queued up.

I do believe these claims are born of ignorance of how the combat functions at maximum efficiency. I have nothing to gain by denying its use, but I am simply saying no one has presented evidence of it. I think even server lag makes up a lot of these claims. Where the player is desynced by snipe or whatever and this is a daily occurrence during my playthroughs.

A lot of players will say l2p as the majority of these claims are born of ignorance. It is also a subject that is brought up regularly and gets tiresome. Also it is a common personality trait where others would rather blame losses on some form of unfair playing field. This is actually totally normal and is an inherent survival instinct. It is far healthier in situations such as these to just look at your own performance and work out how to better yourself. I personally assume I could have done something different or change my build in someway so I could have won.

You might want to take a few min to read the thread from front to this point. Plenty there for you. As I mentioned, three types of people who come into these threads....

relentless_turnip

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Have to admit...sometimes I wonder when I'm watching some of these YouTubers parsing at a .99 LA ratio.

Whenever these threads pop up you get three things....those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered.

Most of the time you check forum join dates to see they have been around for like a year and yet will 'school' the others about how they game systems work while claiming subtly they are constantly told they are cheating the game but they are just superior to all other players in it.....its just you dont recognize their names.

What proof? I have never seen evidence of macro use. Only that it is possible i.e. links to programmable mouse/gamepad. If someone can show me evidence of its use I'd gladly admit it's use. Yet I have been playing this for 3 years and macro claims have been broadcast at least monthly in my experience with no evidence of it.

Macros would be a total hindrance IMO as the actions continue to play out even when you need to do something else. You can't stop an heal for instance if 3 other skills are already queued up.

I do believe these claims are born of ignorance of how the combat functions at maximum efficiency. I have nothing to gain by denying its use, but I am simply saying no one has presented evidence of it. I think even server lag makes up a lot of these claims. Where the player is desynced by snipe or whatever and this is a daily occurrence during my playthroughs.

A lot of players will say l2p as the majority of these claims are born of ignorance. It is also a subject that is brought up regularly and gets tiresome. Also it is a common personality trait where others would rather blame losses on some form of unfair playing field. This is actually totally normal and is an inherent survival instinct. It is far healthier in situations such as these to just look at your own performance and work out how to better yourself. I personally assume I could have done something different or change my build in someway so I could have won.

You might want to take a few min to read the thread from front to this point. Plenty there for you. As I mentioned, three types of people who come into these threads....

I have read the entirety of this thread and literally hundreds like it. This is my over arching opinion. Your reply is also a general summize of the subject matter.

Soul_Demon

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Have to admit...sometimes I wonder when I'm watching some of these YouTubers parsing at a .99 LA ratio.

Whenever these threads pop up you get three things....those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered.

Most of the time you check forum join dates to see they have been around for like a year and yet will 'school' the others about how they game systems work while claiming subtly they are constantly told they are cheating the game but they are just superior to all other players in it.....its just you dont recognize their names.

What proof? I have never seen evidence of macro use. Only that it is possible i.e. links to programmable mouse/gamepad. If someone can show me evidence of its use I'd gladly admit it's use. Yet I have been playing this for 3 years and macro claims have been broadcast at least monthly in my experience with no evidence of it.

Macros would be a total hindrance IMO as the actions continue to play out even when you need to do something else. You can't stop an heal for instance if 3 other skills are already queued up.

I do believe these claims are born of ignorance of how the combat functions at maximum efficiency. I have nothing to gain by denying its use, but I am simply saying no one has presented evidence of it. I think even server lag makes up a lot of these claims. Where the player is desynced by snipe or whatever and this is a daily occurrence during my playthroughs.

A lot of players will say l2p as the majority of these claims are born of ignorance. It is also a subject that is brought up regularly and gets tiresome. Also it is a common personality trait where others would rather blame losses on some form of unfair playing field. This is actually totally normal and is an inherent survival instinct. It is far healthier in situations such as these to just look at your own performance and work out how to better yourself. I personally assume I could have done something different or change my build in someway so I could have won.

You might want to take a few min to read the thread from front to this point. Plenty there for you. As I mentioned, three types of people who come into these threads....

I have read the entirety of this thread and literally hundreds like it. This is my over arching opinion.

Hundreds? Since "Joined October 2019" Seems like you may be overstating that a bit.....

relentless_turnip

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Have to admit...sometimes I wonder when I'm watching some of these YouTubers parsing at a .99 LA ratio.

Whenever these threads pop up you get three things....those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered.

Most of the time you check forum join dates to see they have been around for like a year and yet will 'school' the others about how they game systems work while claiming subtly they are constantly told they are cheating the game but they are just superior to all other players in it.....its just you dont recognize their names.

What proof? I have never seen evidence of macro use. Only that it is possible i.e. links to programmable mouse/gamepad. If someone can show me evidence of its use I'd gladly admit it's use. Yet I have been playing this for 3 years and macro claims have been broadcast at least monthly in my experience with no evidence of it.

Macros would be a total hindrance IMO as the actions continue to play out even when you need to do something else. You can't stop an heal for instance if 3 other skills are already queued up.

I do believe these claims are born of ignorance of how the combat functions at maximum efficiency. I have nothing to gain by denying its use, but I am simply saying no one has presented evidence of it. I think even server lag makes up a lot of these claims. Where the player is desynced by snipe or whatever and this is a daily occurrence during my playthroughs.

A lot of players will say l2p as the majority of these claims are born of ignorance. It is also a subject that is brought up regularly and gets tiresome. Also it is a common personality trait where others would rather blame losses on some form of unfair playing field. This is actually totally normal and is an inherent survival instinct. It is far healthier in situations such as these to just look at your own performance and work out how to better yourself. I personally assume I could have done something different or change my build in someway so I could have won.

You might want to take a few min to read the thread from front to this point. Plenty there for you. As I mentioned, three types of people who come into these threads....

I have read the entirety of this thread and literally hundreds like it. This is my over arching opinion.

Hundreds? Since "Joined October 2019" Seems like you may be overstating that a bit.....

I played the game for a year before I got invited to the forums, it wasn't automatic for whatever reason. I am overstating, but the frequency is high and I don't understand the relevance of either of these points in the current discussion or why you think looking at my profile will give you any more clarity on macro use.

fred4

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Hundreds? Since "Joined October 2019" Seems like you may be overstating that a bit.....

He has also accumulated 4K agrees since then, more than the 2K I have since 2016. So I think it could be true.

I look over FTC combat logs when I feel hard done by and can almost always find a legitimate explanation. Well, always, really. Mostly the game is just genuinely unfair. The rock, paper, scissors effect can be very strong in specific encounters. As a magblade main it can be as simple as people bothering to use detect potions or just one of two opponents using Magelight judiciously. As a stam DK I have found myself helpless and with no escape from a mag DK, who simply had the stronger DOTs that I could not outheal. As a stamsorc I have recently been ganked by a bomb-blade, while turning a flag in IC, and I'm still trying to figure out the best counter. I can tell you that just blocking ain't it.

While we're discussing conspiracy theories and exploits, I might as well throw a question out there. My stamsorc has about 24K resistances and 2.5K crit resist. How can a magblade gank me, while I'm standing alone on a flag, doing 13K (crit) damage with Soul Tether, but also doing the same amount (13K) at the same time with Proximity Detonation? If I read the tooltip right, Proxy Det would need at least 4 targets to hit for the same amount. Now that could be my Engine Guardian and 3 flag guards, but I am quite sure the flag guards were not there yet. From what I can tell this magblade must have been specced for extreme damage - Sap Essence hit me for 8K as well - with something like Acuity + Spinners + Balorgh + Simmering Frenzy. What I can't really explain is the single-target damage of Proxy Det. This is one of those cases where I wish I had recorded video. I had to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, because if he timed it just right, just as the guards were appearing, this might be legit. It happened 3 times that day, though, and another bomb-blade on the same day could not hit me nearly as hard. Very frustrating. I'm still suspicious there may be a Proxy Det exploit.

Primidone

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Have to admit...sometimes I wonder when I'm watching some of these YouTubers parsing at a .99 LA ratio.

Whenever these threads pop up you get three things....those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered.

Most of the time you check forum join dates to see they have been around for like a year and yet will 'school' the others about how they game systems work while claiming subtly they are constantly told they are cheating the game but they are just superior to all other players in it.....its just you dont recognize their names.

What proof? I have never seen evidence of macro use. Only that it is possible i.e. links to programmable mouse/gamepad. If someone can show me evidence of its use I'd gladly admit it's use. Yet I have been playing this for 3 years and macro claims have been broadcast at least monthly in my experience with no evidence of it.

Macros would be a total hindrance IMO as the actions continue to play out even when you need to do something else. You can't stop an heal for instance if 3 other skills are already queued up.

I do believe these claims are born of ignorance of how the combat functions at maximum efficiency. I have nothing to gain by denying its use, but I am simply saying no one has presented evidence of it. I think even server lag makes up a lot of these claims. Where the player is desynced by snipe or whatever and this is a daily occurrence during my playthroughs.

A lot of players will say l2p as the majority of these claims are born of ignorance. It is also a subject that is brought up regularly and gets tiresome. Also it is a common personality trait where others would rather blame losses on some form of unfair playing field. This is actually totally normal and is an inherent survival instinct. It is far healthier in situations such as these to just look at your own performance and work out how to better yourself. I personally assume I could have done something different or change my build in someway so I could have won.

You might want to take a few min to read the thread from front to this point. Plenty there for you. As I mentioned, three types of people who come into these threads....

I have read the entirety of this thread and literally hundreds like it. This is my over arching opinion.

Hundreds? Since "Joined October 2019" Seems like you may be overstating that a bit.....

I played the game for a year before I got invited to the forums, it wasn't automatic for whatever reason. I am overstating, but the frequency is high and I don't understand the relevance of either of these points in the current discussion or why you think looking at my profile will give you any more clarity on macro use.

Not sure if it’s proof, but that PvE guild I’ve mentioned in the OP are teaching guildies who have subpar performance to use macro in order to increase their dps. I’ll skip the particular method here because it’s against ToS, apparently. But it involves programmable gaming mouse and a certain class that has a simple rotation. Their prog group has just finished vCR+3 last week, and planned to do vSS Godslayer next.

As for PvP, however, I don’t know much about that. But based on furiouslog’s reply it looks pretty evidential. IMO ESO’s PvP is a bit of a lackluster. Been playing Dark Souls 3’s PvP for a while now, and the combat system is vastly superior and streets ahead of ESO. But if you’re having fun, then so be it. Just saying that if marcos are possible in PvE, it certainly is in PvP.

relentless_turnip

Primidone wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Have to admit...sometimes I wonder when I'm watching some of these YouTubers parsing at a .99 LA ratio.

Whenever these threads pop up you get three things....those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered.

Most of the time you check forum join dates to see they have been around for like a year and yet will 'school' the others about how they game systems work while claiming subtly they are constantly told they are cheating the game but they are just superior to all other players in it.....its just you dont recognize their names.

What proof? I have never seen evidence of macro use. Only that it is possible i.e. links to programmable mouse/gamepad. If someone can show me evidence of its use I'd gladly admit it's use. Yet I have been playing this for 3 years and macro claims have been broadcast at least monthly in my experience with no evidence of it.

Macros would be a total hindrance IMO as the actions continue to play out even when you need to do something else. You can't stop an heal for instance if 3 other skills are already queued up.

I do believe these claims are born of ignorance of how the combat functions at maximum efficiency. I have nothing to gain by denying its use, but I am simply saying no one has presented evidence of it. I think even server lag makes up a lot of these claims. Where the player is desynced by snipe or whatever and this is a daily occurrence during my playthroughs.

A lot of players will say l2p as the majority of these claims are born of ignorance. It is also a subject that is brought up regularly and gets tiresome. Also it is a common personality trait where others would rather blame losses on some form of unfair playing field. This is actually totally normal and is an inherent survival instinct. It is far healthier in situations such as these to just look at your own performance and work out how to better yourself. I personally assume I could have done something different or change my build in someway so I could have won.

You might want to take a few min to read the thread from front to this point. Plenty there for you. As I mentioned, three types of people who come into these threads....

I have read the entirety of this thread and literally hundreds like it. This is my over arching opinion.

Hundreds? Since "Joined October 2019" Seems like you may be overstating that a bit.....

I played the game for a year before I got invited to the forums, it wasn't automatic for whatever reason. I am overstating, but the frequency is high and I don't understand the relevance of either of these points in the current discussion or why you think looking at my profile will give you any more clarity on macro use.

Not sure if it’s proof, but that PvE guild I’ve mentioned in the OP are teaching guildies who have subpar performance to use macro in order to increase their dps. I’ll skip the particular method here because it’s against ToS, apparently. But it involves programmable gaming mouse and a certain class that has a simple rotation. Their prog group has just finished vCR+3 last week, and planned to do vSS Godslayer next.

As for PvP, however, I don’t know much about that. But based on furiouslog’s reply it looks pretty evidential. IMO ESO’s PvP is a bit of a lackluster. Been playing Dark Souls 3’s PvP for a while now, and the combat system is vastly superior and streets ahead of ESO. But if you’re having fun, then so be it. Just saying that if marcos are possible in PvE, it certainly is in PvP.

I love the PvP in this game it is only the performance that ruins it. I don't see how a macro could be used effectively in PvP. Being that you have to make choices and do actions reactively.

I don't know about PVE but I imagine to a lesser degree it limits your ability to react to mechanics. Does your guild incorporate a kill switch to stop the macro?

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

Elsonso

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

relentless_turnip

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

Then why are people so sure it is happening? What indications are there that it is a thing? I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I genuinely want to understand where it comes from.