Macro

furiouslog

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If I’ve had a dismissive attitude it’s because the thread was originally about macros and then it got changed to a lag switch and now you’re talking about a cheat engine to be able to bypass the cool down. You guys have been all over the place with this obsession.

Maybe I’m naive because I play on console and haven’t seen any cheating in 7 years of daily play, but that doesn’t change the fact of what the original op was about. A macro can not bypass the cool down and it’s just not going to work reliably with lag and skill delay.

With that being said the desyncs started getting bad when they tried to fix the desyncs from block canceling which rarely happened and instead now almost every skill can cause a desync including seige. I just got done leveling up a stamplar and I can’t count how many times I was able to desync npc’s using nothing but jabs. The game is broke, that’s my opinion you are entitled to yours.

I don't know if it's a cheat engine or not. The original question was whether or not macros were viable. I'm saying yes, and there is clear evidence of successful use.

Console is not immune either. They sell hardware lag switches for XBox and PS4 designed to cause controlled intermitted desyncs applicable for use in multiple games. I'm sure that these devices would not command their prices if they didn't work. You might have been a victim of cheating and just assumed it was the game bugging out again. Maybe, maybe not.

Controllers can have programmable buttons that are timed to fire within the cooldown rates. Your point that they are unreliable due to latency/desync is taken, but if they script the timing right, they can reliably launch a short rotation with one click, which would still give you an advantage over someone who had lag and desync issues anyway, but was trying to press 8 keys in a row with near perfect timing.

@Goregrinder With respect to the one-shot bow gankers, I've never bothered reporting any of them, because I know that it could legitimately be desync or lag. It's not my first thought when it happens. But after you get five of those in a session with the same exact effect from the same player, that's not really random anymore, and it would be reasonable to suspect that it's being deliberately caused one way or the other. I can tell the difference. They are only annoying anyway, they don't have any measurable impact on the game other than a momentary inconvenience, and if they wanted to make AP they'd be better off actually doing something other than one shotting passersby in some choke point.

Nowadays, I just go super tanky backbar and pop resistance pots when I ride, and when they don't kill me, we all go hunt them down.

relentless_turnip

furiouslog wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Macros can’t bypass the global cool down, they don’t make sounds, and they can’t change their input delay on the fly to account for lag and skill delay.

I can see them being effective in low lag pve, but in pvp they would not be reliable and would greatly affect the ability to react putting the user at a great disadvantage.

I have plenty of evidence to the contrary, as previously mentioned. You are speculating. Provide data to support your position.

Please show us the evidence.

trackdemon5512

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

@ApoAlaia

Did you try on PC or console? I think on PC you've got more options software wise. On console as far as im concerned, i does not work.

I’ve seen it work on console. Cyro live as it is. Snipe desyncers would cloak up in a keep like Sej, using macros plus emotes to perfectly execute desync kills every time.

I’m not one to keep video clips, this was definitely over a year ago. That said the player doing it was well known in the PS4 PVP community for utilizing macros in combat. In this case where it was easy to execute as the targets were on stationary siege.

And even with basic de syncs a long time veteran Cyro player can usually counter. In this case that was impossible as the macros completely killed even tanks before combat could be registered by the players.

TequilaFire

furiouslog wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Macros can’t bypass the global cool down, they don’t make sounds, and they can’t change their input delay on the fly to account for lag and skill delay.

I can see them being effective in low lag pve, but in pvp they would not be reliable and would greatly affect the ability to react putting the user at a great disadvantage.

I have plenty of evidence to the contrary, as previously mentioned. You are speculating. Provide data to support your position.

Then show your evidence.
A macro can't defeat the GCD.

Goregrinder

furiouslog wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If I’ve had a dismissive attitude it’s because the thread was originally about macros and then it got changed to a lag switch and now you’re talking about a cheat engine to be able to bypass the cool down. You guys have been all over the place with this obsession.

Maybe I’m naive because I play on console and haven’t seen any cheating in 7 years of daily play, but that doesn’t change the fact of what the original op was about. A macro can not bypass the cool down and it’s just not going to work reliably with lag and skill delay.

With that being said the desyncs started getting bad when they tried to fix the desyncs from block canceling which rarely happened and instead now almost every skill can cause a desync including seige. I just got done leveling up a stamplar and I can’t count how many times I was able to desync npc’s using nothing but jabs. The game is broke, that’s my opinion you are entitled to yours.

I don't know if it's a cheat engine or not. The original question was whether or not macros were viable. I'm saying yes, and there is clear evidence of successful use.

Console is not immune either. They sell hardware lag switches for XBox and PS4 designed to cause controlled intermitted desyncs applicable for use in multiple games. I'm sure that these devices would not command their prices if they didn't work. You might have been a victim of cheating and just assumed it was the game bugging out again. Maybe, maybe not.

Controllers can have programmable buttons that are timed to fire within the cooldown rates. Your point that they are unreliable due to latency/desync is taken, but if they script the timing right, they can reliably launch a short rotation with one click, which would still give you an advantage over someone who had lag and desync issues anyway, but was trying to press 8 keys in a row with near perfect timing.

@Goregrinder With respect to the one-shot bow gankers, I've never bothered reporting any of them, because I know that it could legitimately be desync or lag. It's not my first thought when it happens. But after you get five of those in a session with the same exact effect from the same player, that's not really random anymore, and it would be reasonable to suspect that it's being deliberately caused one way or the other. I can tell the difference. They are only annoying anyway, they don't have any measurable impact on the game other than a momentary inconvenience, and if they wanted to make AP they'd be better off actually doing something other than one shotting passersby in some choke point.

Nowadays, I just go super tanky backbar and pop resistance pots when I ride, and when they don't kill me, we all go hunt them down.

Without proof otherwise, it's probably legitimate. Us experienced gankers very rarely mess up our opening burst combo especially on targets not actively trying to kill you, mostly because they can't because they can't see you. It's pretty easy to consistently perform your burst combo successfully 5 times in a row, even on the same target.

relentless_turnip

I play purely PvP for 3 years. I have never seen macro use.
If you initiate a macro what would happen if you needed to block, heal, roll dodge or break free? Because the macro would carry on going... Even if it is was briefly interrupted by one of your actions. It would give you no advantage.

You can cast 3 damaging actions in a second: light attack, skill and bash. You can however line up delayed burst such as: mages wrath, shalks, blastbones, bound armaments etc...before your combo. You can also use glyphs, poisons and dots to increase the DPS of your combo.

Combos are normally a few button presses and can be completed easily by a player. If someone can provide evidence of macro use I will happily eat my words. As it stands people have claimed this every month since I've played.

My only advice to those people is it is far healthier to take responsibility for your losses and only doing this will allow you to improve at the game. Whilst you hide behind the idea that everyone is cheating you will never improve and instead stick to the narrative that you died to ***.

As I said provide clear evidence of its use and I will eat my words. Providing links to gamepads/hardware that make macro use possible is not evidence of its use in this game only that it is possible to create a macro.

furiouslog

Goregrinder wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If I’ve had a dismissive attitude it’s because the thread was originally about macros and then it got changed to a lag switch and now you’re talking about a cheat engine to be able to bypass the cool down. You guys have been all over the place with this obsession.

Maybe I’m naive because I play on console and haven’t seen any cheating in 7 years of daily play, but that doesn’t change the fact of what the original op was about. A macro can not bypass the cool down and it’s just not going to work reliably with lag and skill delay.

With that being said the desyncs started getting bad when they tried to fix the desyncs from block canceling which rarely happened and instead now almost every skill can cause a desync including seige. I just got done leveling up a stamplar and I can’t count how many times I was able to desync npc’s using nothing but jabs. The game is broke, that’s my opinion you are entitled to yours.

I don't know if it's a cheat engine or not. The original question was whether or not macros were viable. I'm saying yes, and there is clear evidence of successful use.

Console is not immune either. They sell hardware lag switches for XBox and PS4 designed to cause controlled intermitted desyncs applicable for use in multiple games. I'm sure that these devices would not command their prices if they didn't work. You might have been a victim of cheating and just assumed it was the game bugging out again. Maybe, maybe not.

Controllers can have programmable buttons that are timed to fire within the cooldown rates. Your point that they are unreliable due to latency/desync is taken, but if they script the timing right, they can reliably launch a short rotation with one click, which would still give you an advantage over someone who had lag and desync issues anyway, but was trying to press 8 keys in a row with near perfect timing.

@Goregrinder With respect to the one-shot bow gankers, I've never bothered reporting any of them, because I know that it could legitimately be desync or lag. It's not my first thought when it happens. But after you get five of those in a session with the same exact effect from the same player, that's not really random anymore, and it would be reasonable to suspect that it's being deliberately caused one way or the other. I can tell the difference. They are only annoying anyway, they don't have any measurable impact on the game other than a momentary inconvenience, and if they wanted to make AP they'd be better off actually doing something other than one shotting passersby in some choke point.

Nowadays, I just go super tanky backbar and pop resistance pots when I ride, and when they don't kill me, we all go hunt them down.

Without proof otherwise, it's probably legitimate. Us experienced gankers very rarely mess up our opening burst combo especially on targets not actively trying to kill you, mostly because they can't because they can't see you. It's pretty easy to consistently perform your burst combo successfully 5 times in a row, even on the same target.

I've been hit with a bow gank rotation before. I'll at least hear something. Combat music, a snipe, an LA, anything. My damage will reduce in stages with the attack. Something will happen on the screen. I'm talking about riding along, and then WHAM, and I'm instantly dead. No music, no telegraph, no prior indication of taking damage, nothing. If this were so reliably possible to pull off within the confines of the game mechanics, people would only run bow gankers.

I'm been ambushed from stealth too. But I can see it happening on the screen even if I'm too late to react. Those guys got me fair and square. I know the difference.

relentless_turnip

furiouslog wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If I’ve had a dismissive attitude it’s because the thread was originally about macros and then it got changed to a lag switch and now you’re talking about a cheat engine to be able to bypass the cool down. You guys have been all over the place with this obsession.

Maybe I’m naive because I play on console and haven’t seen any cheating in 7 years of daily play, but that doesn’t change the fact of what the original op was about. A macro can not bypass the cool down and it’s just not going to work reliably with lag and skill delay.

With that being said the desyncs started getting bad when they tried to fix the desyncs from block canceling which rarely happened and instead now almost every skill can cause a desync including seige. I just got done leveling up a stamplar and I can’t count how many times I was able to desync npc’s using nothing but jabs. The game is broke, that’s my opinion you are entitled to yours.

I don't know if it's a cheat engine or not. The original question was whether or not macros were viable. I'm saying yes, and there is clear evidence of successful use.

Console is not immune either. They sell hardware lag switches for XBox and PS4 designed to cause controlled intermitted desyncs applicable for use in multiple games. I'm sure that these devices would not command their prices if they didn't work. You might have been a victim of cheating and just assumed it was the game bugging out again. Maybe, maybe not.

Controllers can have programmable buttons that are timed to fire within the cooldown rates. Your point that they are unreliable due to latency/desync is taken, but if they script the timing right, they can reliably launch a short rotation with one click, which would still give you an advantage over someone who had lag and desync issues anyway, but was trying to press 8 keys in a row with near perfect timing.

@Goregrinder With respect to the one-shot bow gankers, I've never bothered reporting any of them, because I know that it could legitimately be desync or lag. It's not my first thought when it happens. But after you get five of those in a session with the same exact effect from the same player, that's not really random anymore, and it would be reasonable to suspect that it's being deliberately caused one way or the other. I can tell the difference. They are only annoying anyway, they don't have any measurable impact on the game other than a momentary inconvenience, and if they wanted to make AP they'd be better off actually doing something other than one shotting passersby in some choke point.

Nowadays, I just go super tanky backbar and pop resistance pots when I ride, and when they don't kill me, we all go hunt them down.

Without proof otherwise, it's probably legitimate. Us experienced gankers very rarely mess up our opening burst combo especially on targets not actively trying to kill you, mostly because they can't because they can't see you. It's pretty easy to consistently perform your burst combo successfully 5 times in a row, even on the same target.

I've been hit with a bow gank rotation before. I'll at least hear something. Combat music, a snipe, an LA, anything. My damage will reduce in stages with the attack. Something will happen on the screen. I'm talking about riding along, and then WHAM, and I'm instantly dead. No music, no telegraph, no prior indication of taking damage, nothing. If this were so reliably possible to pull off within the confines of the game mechanics, people would only run bow gankers.

I'm been ambushed from stealth too. But I can see it happening on the screen even if I'm too late to react. Those guys got me fair and square. I know the difference.

The snipe thing is desync, it happens to me all the time. They can't bypass the GCD. It is literally the UI failing to keep up with incoming damage, which happens on a lot of skills. Snipe and sorcs overload/ele weapon are terrible offender's that come to mind.

Goregrinder

furiouslog wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If I’ve had a dismissive attitude it’s because the thread was originally about macros and then it got changed to a lag switch and now you’re talking about a cheat engine to be able to bypass the cool down. You guys have been all over the place with this obsession.

Maybe I’m naive because I play on console and haven’t seen any cheating in 7 years of daily play, but that doesn’t change the fact of what the original op was about. A macro can not bypass the cool down and it’s just not going to work reliably with lag and skill delay.

With that being said the desyncs started getting bad when they tried to fix the desyncs from block canceling which rarely happened and instead now almost every skill can cause a desync including seige. I just got done leveling up a stamplar and I can’t count how many times I was able to desync npc’s using nothing but jabs. The game is broke, that’s my opinion you are entitled to yours.

I don't know if it's a cheat engine or not. The original question was whether or not macros were viable. I'm saying yes, and there is clear evidence of successful use.

Console is not immune either. They sell hardware lag switches for XBox and PS4 designed to cause controlled intermitted desyncs applicable for use in multiple games. I'm sure that these devices would not command their prices if they didn't work. You might have been a victim of cheating and just assumed it was the game bugging out again. Maybe, maybe not.

Controllers can have programmable buttons that are timed to fire within the cooldown rates. Your point that they are unreliable due to latency/desync is taken, but if they script the timing right, they can reliably launch a short rotation with one click, which would still give you an advantage over someone who had lag and desync issues anyway, but was trying to press 8 keys in a row with near perfect timing.

@Goregrinder With respect to the one-shot bow gankers, I've never bothered reporting any of them, because I know that it could legitimately be desync or lag. It's not my first thought when it happens. But after you get five of those in a session with the same exact effect from the same player, that's not really random anymore, and it would be reasonable to suspect that it's being deliberately caused one way or the other. I can tell the difference. They are only annoying anyway, they don't have any measurable impact on the game other than a momentary inconvenience, and if they wanted to make AP they'd be better off actually doing something other than one shotting passersby in some choke point.

Nowadays, I just go super tanky backbar and pop resistance pots when I ride, and when they don't kill me, we all go hunt them down.

Without proof otherwise, it's probably legitimate. Us experienced gankers very rarely mess up our opening burst combo especially on targets not actively trying to kill you, mostly because they can't because they can't see you. It's pretty easy to consistently perform your burst combo successfully 5 times in a row, even on the same target.

I've been hit with a bow gank rotation before. I'll at least hear something. Combat music, a snipe, an LA, anything. My damage will reduce in stages with the attack. Something will happen on the screen. I'm talking about riding along, and then WHAM, and I'm instantly dead. No music, no telegraph, no prior indication of taking damage, nothing. If this were so reliably possible to pull off within the confines of the game mechanics, people would only run bow gankers.

I'm been ambushed from stealth too. But I can see it happening on the screen even if I'm too late to react. Those guys got me fair and square. I know the difference.

Again, no proof, just assumptions. The fact that it's possible to suddenly be hit by something with no cue's in the game, means I'd want to see evidence that it was cheating. It's possible for that to happen without a player cheating, so just because it happens does not mean a player was cheating or using a macro, etc. I mean, you're allowed to believe whatever you want, but as an experienced bow ganker I can tell you many people have messaged after I deleted them from the server that they reported me for cheating, when all I did was a pretty standard burst combo out of stealth.

How much experience do you have running a Bowgank build on say a NB? Or have you even tried it at all?

furiouslog

Goregrinder wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If I’ve had a dismissive attitude it’s because the thread was originally about macros and then it got changed to a lag switch and now you’re talking about a cheat engine to be able to bypass the cool down. You guys have been all over the place with this obsession.

Maybe I’m naive because I play on console and haven’t seen any cheating in 7 years of daily play, but that doesn’t change the fact of what the original op was about. A macro can not bypass the cool down and it’s just not going to work reliably with lag and skill delay.

With that being said the desyncs started getting bad when they tried to fix the desyncs from block canceling which rarely happened and instead now almost every skill can cause a desync including seige. I just got done leveling up a stamplar and I can’t count how many times I was able to desync npc’s using nothing but jabs. The game is broke, that’s my opinion you are entitled to yours.

I don't know if it's a cheat engine or not. The original question was whether or not macros were viable. I'm saying yes, and there is clear evidence of successful use.

Console is not immune either. They sell hardware lag switches for XBox and PS4 designed to cause controlled intermitted desyncs applicable for use in multiple games. I'm sure that these devices would not command their prices if they didn't work. You might have been a victim of cheating and just assumed it was the game bugging out again. Maybe, maybe not.

Controllers can have programmable buttons that are timed to fire within the cooldown rates. Your point that they are unreliable due to latency/desync is taken, but if they script the timing right, they can reliably launch a short rotation with one click, which would still give you an advantage over someone who had lag and desync issues anyway, but was trying to press 8 keys in a row with near perfect timing.

@Goregrinder With respect to the one-shot bow gankers, I've never bothered reporting any of them, because I know that it could legitimately be desync or lag. It's not my first thought when it happens. But after you get five of those in a session with the same exact effect from the same player, that's not really random anymore, and it would be reasonable to suspect that it's being deliberately caused one way or the other. I can tell the difference. They are only annoying anyway, they don't have any measurable impact on the game other than a momentary inconvenience, and if they wanted to make AP they'd be better off actually doing something other than one shotting passersby in some choke point.

Nowadays, I just go super tanky backbar and pop resistance pots when I ride, and when they don't kill me, we all go hunt them down.

Without proof otherwise, it's probably legitimate. Us experienced gankers very rarely mess up our opening burst combo especially on targets not actively trying to kill you, mostly because they can't because they can't see you. It's pretty easy to consistently perform your burst combo successfully 5 times in a row, even on the same target.

I've been hit with a bow gank rotation before. I'll at least hear something. Combat music, a snipe, an LA, anything. My damage will reduce in stages with the attack. Something will happen on the screen. I'm talking about riding along, and then WHAM, and I'm instantly dead. No music, no telegraph, no prior indication of taking damage, nothing. If this were so reliably possible to pull off within the confines of the game mechanics, people would only run bow gankers.

I'm been ambushed from stealth too. But I can see it happening on the screen even if I'm too late to react. Those guys got me fair and square. I know the difference.

Again, no proof, just assumptions. The fact that it's possible to suddenly be hit by something with no cue's in the game, means I'd want to see evidence that it was cheating. It's possible for that to happen without a player cheating, so just because it happens does not mean a player was cheating or using a macro, etc. I mean, you're allowed to believe whatever you want, but as an experienced bow ganker I can tell you many people have messaged after I deleted them from the server that they reported me for cheating, when all I did was a pretty standard burst combo out of stealth.

How much experience do you have running a Bowgank build on say a NB? Or have you even tried it at all?

I have, yes. My very first toon at launch was a stamblade. I used to play rogue in WOW. I decided that I didn't like the playstyle in the long run given the variety of options in the game.

I agree that it's not proof. I actually said that. I also said that I've never reported a bow ganker for cheating for precisely that reason. We agree. I'm just saying that if me and my group get hit by the same player in that same single shot, with no warning, within a short period of time, I'd definitely suspect a lag switch.

I've seen videos on youtube of players in multiple games, including ESO (but some of those are accusing other players, not showing off the switch), utilizing lag switches to execute surprise attacks by stacking skill fires offline and then going back online. I'm not going to link them because TOS - they are not hard to find though.

I'm sure that some of you think I fall into that category of player who gets fairly owned and then reports someone for cheating our of spite, or out of just plain unbelievability that someone could be that skilled. I've watched videos of RTS players who pump out amazing APM. I know that video game savants exist, and that they are better than me. Congratulations to those of you. I don't reflexively report cheaters as an emotional reaction. I don't care much about dying either, sometimes I go out and die a lot for science purposes, learn, and then come back later and try not to die.

My first reaction when I am dying a lot without intention is to go into logs and understand what happened, so I can learn how to counter it. I try to figure out their builds if it's potentially useful. Most of the time, everything looks good, and I understand what they did, and how I need to adjust my play or build. It's part of the learning process. But if a single player is avoiding being killed by 15 experienced players for 10 minutes while consistently taking them down one by one, and the log shows something really suspicious, and I can not replicate some of the things that they have done no matter how hard I or others try, then I suspect cheating. I get more logs of that person to see if the same thing is going on. If it is, then I'll probably report them. If not, maybe it was a fluke. Do you think that's reasonable? Personally, I do.

The point is this: I agree that just because something looks like cheating to an inexperienced player, does not mean that it is. Your personal experience has taught you this because your legitimate play has been interpreted as cheating. But your personal experience does not negate the possible existence of cheaters, and I think we'd agree that if someone were deliberately cheating, that we would not want them to be able to participate in the game.

Goregrinder

furiouslog wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If I’ve had a dismissive attitude it’s because the thread was originally about macros and then it got changed to a lag switch and now you’re talking about a cheat engine to be able to bypass the cool down. You guys have been all over the place with this obsession.

Maybe I’m naive because I play on console and haven’t seen any cheating in 7 years of daily play, but that doesn’t change the fact of what the original op was about. A macro can not bypass the cool down and it’s just not going to work reliably with lag and skill delay.

With that being said the desyncs started getting bad when they tried to fix the desyncs from block canceling which rarely happened and instead now almost every skill can cause a desync including seige. I just got done leveling up a stamplar and I can’t count how many times I was able to desync npc’s using nothing but jabs. The game is broke, that’s my opinion you are entitled to yours.

I don't know if it's a cheat engine or not. The original question was whether or not macros were viable. I'm saying yes, and there is clear evidence of successful use.

Console is not immune either. They sell hardware lag switches for XBox and PS4 designed to cause controlled intermitted desyncs applicable for use in multiple games. I'm sure that these devices would not command their prices if they didn't work. You might have been a victim of cheating and just assumed it was the game bugging out again. Maybe, maybe not.

Controllers can have programmable buttons that are timed to fire within the cooldown rates. Your point that they are unreliable due to latency/desync is taken, but if they script the timing right, they can reliably launch a short rotation with one click, which would still give you an advantage over someone who had lag and desync issues anyway, but was trying to press 8 keys in a row with near perfect timing.

@Goregrinder With respect to the one-shot bow gankers, I've never bothered reporting any of them, because I know that it could legitimately be desync or lag. It's not my first thought when it happens. But after you get five of those in a session with the same exact effect from the same player, that's not really random anymore, and it would be reasonable to suspect that it's being deliberately caused one way or the other. I can tell the difference. They are only annoying anyway, they don't have any measurable impact on the game other than a momentary inconvenience, and if they wanted to make AP they'd be better off actually doing something other than one shotting passersby in some choke point.

Nowadays, I just go super tanky backbar and pop resistance pots when I ride, and when they don't kill me, we all go hunt them down.

Without proof otherwise, it's probably legitimate. Us experienced gankers very rarely mess up our opening burst combo especially on targets not actively trying to kill you, mostly because they can't because they can't see you. It's pretty easy to consistently perform your burst combo successfully 5 times in a row, even on the same target.

I've been hit with a bow gank rotation before. I'll at least hear something. Combat music, a snipe, an LA, anything. My damage will reduce in stages with the attack. Something will happen on the screen. I'm talking about riding along, and then WHAM, and I'm instantly dead. No music, no telegraph, no prior indication of taking damage, nothing. If this were so reliably possible to pull off within the confines of the game mechanics, people would only run bow gankers.

I'm been ambushed from stealth too. But I can see it happening on the screen even if I'm too late to react. Those guys got me fair and square. I know the difference.

Again, no proof, just assumptions. The fact that it's possible to suddenly be hit by something with no cue's in the game, means I'd want to see evidence that it was cheating. It's possible for that to happen without a player cheating, so just because it happens does not mean a player was cheating or using a macro, etc. I mean, you're allowed to believe whatever you want, but as an experienced bow ganker I can tell you many people have messaged after I deleted them from the server that they reported me for cheating, when all I did was a pretty standard burst combo out of stealth.

How much experience do you have running a Bowgank build on say a NB? Or have you even tried it at all?

I have, yes. My very first toon at launch was a stamblade. I used to play rogue in WOW. I decided that I didn't like the playstyle in the long run given the variety of options in the game.

I agree that it's not proof. I actually said that. I also said that I've never reported a bow ganker for cheating for precisely that reason. We agree. I'm just saying that if me and my group get hit by the same player in that same single shot, with no warning, within a short period of time, I'd definitely suspect a lag switch.

I've seen videos on youtube of players in multiple games, including ESO (but some of those are accusing other players, not showing off the switch), utilizing lag switches to execute surprise attacks by stacking skill fires offline and then going back online. I'm not going to link them because TOS - they are not hard to find though.

I'm sure that some of you think I fall into that category of player who gets fairly owned and then reports someone for cheating our of spite, or out of just plain unbelievability that someone could be that skilled. I've watched videos of RTS players who pump out amazing APM. I know that video game savants exist, and that they are better than me. Congratulations to those of you. I don't reflexively report cheaters as an emotional reaction. I don't care much about dying either, sometimes I go out and die a lot for science purposes, learn, and then come back later and try not to die.

My first reaction when I am dying a lot without intention is to go into logs and understand what happened, so I can learn how to counter it. I try to figure out their builds if it's potentially useful. Most of the time, everything looks good, and I understand what they did, and how I need to adjust my play or build. It's part of the learning process. But if a single player is avoiding being killed by 15 experienced players for 10 minutes while consistently taking them down one by one, and the log shows something really suspicious, and I can not replicate some of the things that they have done no matter how hard I or others try, then I suspect cheating. I get more logs of that person to see if the same thing is going on. If it is, then I'll probably report them. If not, maybe it was a fluke. Do you think that's reasonable? Personally, I do.

The point is this: I agree that just because something looks like cheating to an inexperienced player, does not mean that it is. Your personal experience has taught you this because your legitimate play has been interpreted as cheating. But your personal experience does not negate the possible existence of cheaters, and I think we'd agree that if someone were deliberately cheating, that we would not want them to be able to participate in the game.

Just like the existence of cheaters does not negate the possibility of landing a perfect combo 5 times in a row, and the server dsyncing 5 times in a row.

etchedpixels

furiouslog wrote: »

[

I don't know if it's a cheat engine or not. The original question was whether or not macros were viable. I'm saying yes, and there is clear evidence of successful use.

The things you are talking about are not macros. I could program a macro to do a series of attacks but it would be still be bound by the global cooldowns and the improvement it would offer a reasonable player over just pushing the buttons is probably nil. If you've practised a bit then yes you can fairly reliably do wrecking blow/la/wrecking blow la/wrecking blow/la fairly close to the by the second timing. Likewise a lot of the fancy combos are not so fancy when you realize that most people have their flashy leap into combat and paste you on 1-2-3-4 or similar key combos to make it easy.

Console is not immune either. They sell hardware lag switches for XBox and PS4 designed to cause controlled intermitted desyncs applicable for use in multiple games. I'm sure that these devices would not command their prices if they didn't work. You might have been a victim of cheating and just assumed it was the game bugging out again. Maybe, maybe not.

Separate issue - and if they work it's because whoever designed the game interactions and server got it wrong and needs to fix it. There is a difficult problem in the way these games work because a lagged player hands you 5 events and you have to decide what to do with them but there are ways and means to avoid it being a way to gain much advantage. Fixing that also conveniently fixes the broken real cases too.

It's a mess though I agree - right now when it lags bizarre stuff happens - ultimates drop twice now and then for example.

The second issue with macros is that there are legitimate uses for them such as disabled users. If you ban a disabled user for using macros to work around the fact your game is not remotely compliant with accessibility regulations you are likely to end up being justly shamed on the net and find a queue of no win no fee lawyers itching to take it further.

furiouslog

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The snipe thing is desync, it happens to me all the time. They can't bypass the GCD. It is literally the UI failing to keep up with incoming damage, which happens on a lot of skills. Snipe and sorcs overload/ele weapon are terrible offender's that come to mind.

A lag switch deliberately causes desync to the attacker's advantage. If you execute a rotation perfectly, and there is no lag or desync, the target will probably see something on their screen that indicates the attack. They will hear an attack. They will take damage. They will have time to react.

The process, as I understand it, is to interrupt your own connection at the start or middle of the attack, execute the rotation, and re-establish the connection. The server gets the commands all at once, and will catch up. The target player sees no indication that they were ever being attacked until the rotation is over and has been applied, and they have had no opportunity to fire a single skill, block, drop a pot, nothing. The log will show a well timed rotation within the GCD parameters, so there is no proof of anything.

I've never tried this myself, so I don't know the specifics. I've only seen instruction videos on how to do it in other games, and how it works. ESO is not the only game in the world with a global skill cooldown.

And if the problem is the game design and some skills, why is it that can I anticipate or react to some snipes, and not others? Why are there some players who manage to effectively force a desync every time? Is it just random? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm acknowledging that it's not clear evidence of a lag switch. It's also not clear evidence to the contrary. I'm saying it's uncertain. However, given uncertainty, gathering a large enough sample size will start to demonstrate a pattern, which can be shown to either be random or not, and ultimately can become proof to a certain level of confidence. I don't have enough time or interest to deal with that when it comes to a random bow ganker who killed me a couple of times.

But if someone who I suspect of cheating is constantly at odds with me, or stalking me, or always around causing campaign-wide chaos to the point where the whole game is really starting to suck, I'll make the time, because the alternative is to just quit playing. I've been zerged down plenty of times. I've been killed by some really good and talented players, and maybe once in a blue moon, I'll get the better of them. Sometimes I get salty, but I also respect and acknowledge skill. These engagements happen at random, though, or as part of an expected conflict. Others, I'm clearly either getting bullied or trolled somehow, by single players who never, ever die fighting against 10 people, but can still dish out one shots, whose APM and reaction time should not be possible no matter how much you've practiced a rotation. I know how they are doing it, I posted a snippet of one log for you skeptics, and I've gone through the process of reporting people once there are enough logs that I'm fairly certain that it's well-established and consistent behavior. That's all I'm going to say about it at this point, and if you find my credibility wanting, there is absolutely nothing I can do about that.

Goregrinder

furiouslog wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The snipe thing is desync, it happens to me all the time. They can't bypass the GCD. It is literally the UI failing to keep up with incoming damage, which happens on a lot of skills. Snipe and sorcs overload/ele weapon are terrible offender's that come to mind.

A lag switch deliberately causes desync to the attacker's advantage. If you execute a rotation perfectly, and there is no lag or desync, the target will probably see something on their screen that indicates the attack. They will hear an attack. They will take damage. They will have time to react.

The process, as I understand it, is to interrupt your own connection at the start or middle of the attack, execute the rotation, and re-establish the connection. The server gets the commands all at once, and will catch up. The target player sees no indication that they were ever being attacked until the rotation is over and has been applied, and they have had no opportunity to fire a single skill, block, drop a pot, nothing. The log will show a well timed rotation within the GCD parameters, so there is no proof of anything.

I've never tried this myself, so I don't know the specifics. I've only seen instruction videos on how to do it in other games, and how it works. ESO is not the only game in the world with a global skill cooldown.

And if the problem is the game design and some skills, why is it that can I anticipate or react to some snipes, and not others? Why are there some players who manage to effectively force a desync every time? Is it just random? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm acknowledging that it's not clear evidence of a lag switch. It's also not clear evidence to the contrary. I'm saying it's uncertain. However, given uncertainty, gathering a large enough sample size will start to demonstrate a pattern, which can be shown to either be random or not, and ultimately can become proof to a certain level of confidence. I don't have enough time or interest to deal with that when it comes to a random bow ganker who killed me a couple of times.

But if someone who I suspect of cheating is constantly at odds with me, or stalking me, or always around causing campaign-wide chaos to the point where the whole game is really starting to suck, I'll make the time, because the alternative is to just quit playing. I've been zerged down plenty of times. I've been killed by some really good and talented players, and maybe once in a blue moon, I'll get the better of them. Sometimes I get salty, but I also respect and acknowledge skill. These engagements happen at random, though, or as part of an expected conflict. Others, I'm clearly either getting bullied or trolled somehow, by single players who never, ever die fighting against 10 people, but can still dish out one shots, whose APM and reaction time should not be possible no matter how much you've practiced a rotation. I know how they are doing it, I posted a snippet of one log for you skeptics, and I've gone through the process of reporting people once there are enough logs that I'm fairly certain that it's well-established and consistent behavior. That's all I'm going to say about it at this point, and if you find my credibility wanting, there is absolutely nothing I can do about that.

Lag switching itself isn't evidence that everyone that happens to land perfect combos on you 5 times in a row is lag switching. Causation and correlations are not equal here.

furiouslog

Goregrinder wrote: »

Lag switching itself isn't evidence that everyone that happens to land perfect combos on you 5 times in a row is lag switching. Causation and correlations are not equal here.

Yes, as I've said, we agree about that. Right there in the post you quoted. Thanks though, I guess.

relentless_turnip

furiouslog wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The snipe thing is desync, it happens to me all the time. They can't bypass the GCD. It is literally the UI failing to keep up with incoming damage, which happens on a lot of skills. Snipe and sorcs overload/ele weapon are terrible offender's that come to mind.

A lag switch deliberately causes desync to the attacker's advantage. If you execute a rotation perfectly, and there is no lag or desync, the target will probably see something on their screen that indicates the attack. They will hear an attack. They will take damage. They will have time to react.

The process, as I understand it, is to interrupt your own connection at the start or middle of the attack, execute the rotation, and re-establish the connection. The server gets the commands all at once, and will catch up. The target player sees no indication that they were ever being attacked until the rotation is over and has been applied, and they have had no opportunity to fire a single skill, block, drop a pot, nothing. The log will show a well timed rotation within the GCD parameters, so there is no proof of anything.

I've never tried this myself, so I don't know the specifics. I've only seen instruction videos on how to do it in other games, and how it works. ESO is not the only game in the world with a global skill cooldown.

And if the problem is the game design and some skills, why is it that can I anticipate or react to some snipes, and not others? Why are there some players who manage to effectively force a desync every time? Is it just random? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm acknowledging that it's not clear evidence of a lag switch. It's also not clear evidence to the contrary. I'm saying it's uncertain. However, given uncertainty, gathering a large enough sample size will start to demonstrate a pattern, which can be shown to either be random or not, and ultimately can become proof to a certain level of confidence. I don't have enough time or interest to deal with that when it comes to a random bow ganker who killed me a couple of times.

But if someone who I suspect of cheating is constantly at odds with me, or stalking me, or always around causing campaign-wide chaos to the point where the whole game is really starting to suck, I'll make the time, because the alternative is to just quit playing. I've been zerged down plenty of times. I've been killed by some really good and talented players, and maybe once in a blue moon, I'll get the better of them. Sometimes I get salty, but I also respect and acknowledge skill. These engagements happen at random, though, or as part of an expected conflict. Others, I'm clearly either getting bullied or trolled somehow, by single players who never, ever die fighting against 10 people, but can still dish out one shots, whose APM and reaction time should not be possible no matter how much you've practiced a rotation. I know how they are doing it, I posted a snippet of one log for you skeptics, and I've gone through the process of reporting people once there are enough logs that I'm fairly certain that it's well-established and consistent behavior. That's all I'm going to say about it at this point, and if you find my credibility wanting, there is absolutely nothing I can do about that.

Sounds pretty far fetched where as health desync is pretty widely reported. Any evidence of its use in ESO?

Sanctum74

Many times I’ve been desynced by npc’s that haven’t even rendered on my screen yet and I’m pretty sure they were not using a lag switch. Not saying they don’t exist, but more than likely it’s just a lag desync.

techyeshic

I'd be happy if pushing 1 button managed to activate 1 ability with reliability before hoping for multiple. As it is, I go to set up my buffs then go into a burst combo only to bar swap and realize missed 1 and have to swap back, or find the bar swap didn't go off and use the wrong ability for wasted opportunity and resources. Can't imagine a string of wasted abilities activated.

WrathOfInnos

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Could anyone provide footage of actual macro use? There's so many people presuming use of macros (especially in PvP) while others claim mocros don't even work in ESO. (Myself included)

It's usually based on time of actions, the human control cannot always precisely hit the same combo of keys with the exact same timing each and every press, there's generally a slight difference of 0.1 or 0.2 seconds even with the greatest of practice or they're spamming the buttons. Macros tend to be very precise with exact same timing every time without any overlap in additional button presses, this is what the internal system looks for when determining whether its a macro or a person pressing buttons.

I’m pretty sure humans have much better timing than that. I can only imagine how terrible music would sound if every human input was randomly delayed by up to 200ms. I believe the real number is closer to 10ms, which is much lower than typical ping variations. I think client-side software would be able to determine this somewhat reliably, but there’s no way a server is going to be able to differentiate human vs macro.

As for anyone checking logs to see when skills were used by an opponent. Be careful with that method, because AFAIK you cannot see when they pressed keys, only when skills fired. ESO has a relatively generous window of a couple hundred ms where you can queue up a skill and the character will execute it with perfect timing. Now for cast time skills like Dizzying this is a narrower window, but it’s still possible to perform.

The last point I’ll make is that macros are not good at reacting to new information. There’s no feedback loop. It’s conceivable to macro a short burst combo (I’m still skeptical because it’s easier to just press those keys in the right sequence), but macros don’t do well over longer durations. I’ve seen players attempt to macro entire DPS rotations in PVE, and they end up needing to set the macro timing significantly longer than the GCD for it to work reliably (I believe the tempo ends up being 1s + max ping - min ping). In the end their Light Attacks and casts per second end up lower than a player watching their character animations (or addon GCD tracker) and pressing keys at the correct time.

oddbasket

Is it ok to macro 1 keypress to say 'tyfg' in group chat? I'm kinda lazy.

Amottica

Primidone wrote: »

What’s ZOS’s stance on macro? Plenty of ppl in my high-end PvE guild are using macros to make their rotation perfect. They said ZOS doesn’t care as long as you don’t use third-party softwares. But if you have macros built in your hardware, it’s totally ok. Is this true?

By definition, the use of macros is using third-party software. If their mouse (or keyboard) is executing more than one action per button press then they are using third-party software to create a macro that is then executed by pressing the key or button. So if they admit to using macros then they are admitting to using third-party software.


Granted, I am somewhat new here I have seen a few addons that automate some non-combat functions. As such I expect Zos does not consider the use of legitimate addons as third-party software since they have clearly authorized the use of addons that meet certain parameters. With that in mind, it seems that the use of third-party software to automate combat functions is not permitted. How Zos handles such things is something that would be interested as pretty much every game I have played considered such actions as cheating regardless of it being PvE or PvP.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Macros are certainly against the TOS. Whether they result in a sanction is a much different story. In PVE, its unlikely to be reported, so chances are nothing happens.

This almost feels like a bait post, but I will tell you, the best players don't use them. Sounds like your guild stinks too be honest, I would find a new one. You might be able to smooth over some rough spots and increase a dummy parse with them, but any type of scripted action in actual content, especially with lag in the equation, can result in you being dead when you are unable to react.

I agree with @Oreyn_Bearclaw here. From years of raiding in MMORPGs the best players do not take shortcuts. They learn to play the game properly because shortcuts can and will create problems. Regardless, those that cheat in games are always considered second class.

marius_buys

furiouslog wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If you both have such overwhelming evidence then report the players. If they are cheating then they’d be gone, if not then it’s just another witch hunt as usual.

I'm pretty sure that one is gone (and I know that it was an alt account for a player who is still around). I can't confirm that one way or the other. Others are not. This is what I was talking about in the prior post - how much proof does ZOS need to ban these people?

I don't know what threshold an exploitative player needs to pass before it's just obvious that something fishy is going on. I don't know what evidence ZOS needs, or what tools they have to help them diagnose cheating. I don't know how much work I'm supposed to do to support my claim. Your dismissive attitude towards the problem, which I'm filing under "L2P", demonstrates an unwillingness to even entertain the likelihood that there are cheaters who use macros in PVP, and just because ZOS elects not to ban the player does not mean that they are not cheating, it just means that there was not enough evidence to ban a player who is probably contributing to the bottom line.

You further dismiss that it's even possible to cheat, but when confronted with evidence, you provide no alternative explanation that rationalizes the logs, falling back on "if ZOS says it's cheating then I'll believe it". This is apathetic, and it just allows the problem to persist. But let's follow your train of thought.

The player from that log has been reported numerous times, by multiple players. They are not banned. Ergo, based on your logic, they are not cheating. Since, by that logic, it has been definitely determined that they are not cheating, please explain that log to me and how it's an intended and legal part of the game.

Yeah, might be on 3 day permanent suspension...but odds are they are right back after that to be honest....would not be the first time. As far as not knowing, that is by design. Think about it a second, ZOS uses the players in game to monitor other players for violations, requires YOU provide them with overwhelming and irrefutable proof of this, and then requires you report it to third party company who has financial interest in NOT reporting up to the business for looking incompetent to handle things. And the cherry on top is no naming and shaming in forums and refusal to tell you the outcome of anything......its the perfect set up to when nothing happens to keep anyone from noticing.

Although that thought has definitely crossed my mind, I choose to believe that ZOS has a positive intent in preserving the integrity of their game. However, you've hit on an issue that really upsets me, which is that the entirety of the botting and scripting sub community is essentially protected by all of the TOS policies ZOS put in place for any public communication. If I record someone using an exploit and post it on YouTube in order to try to draw attention to the problem, I can be banned from the forums or the game for violating the TOS, because I clearly did so within their legal definition.

Furthermore, if, hypothetically, someone were hypothetically running a discord server offering hypothetical subscriptions to memory editing bots that gave hypothetically unfair advantages in game, and I were to hypothetically report this discord server to ZOS, it would be my hypothetical expectation that something would be done to that hypothetical entity and the issue somehow responsively addressed in a patch. But if, hypothetically, nothing happened, hypothetically submitting more tickets would not do anything, I wouldn't be able to hypothetically post about it or otherwise talk about it in any public space due to TOS, and I still have to hypothetically live with it. All hypothetical, of course.

It's pretty frustrating, TBH. Some days I don't want to go into Cyro if I know certain people will be on there, deliberately hunting me and my pals with their crazy scripted streakfests.

Bud when that toxic crowd gets to the point where they create a guild with the express purpose of hunting you down, teaming up with other factions to do so, when they mention you or your guild by name in their zone chat as repodted to me by friends on that faction, when they join your discord to insult you on voice, i can honestly say I know exactly what youj are talking about lol, but all toxic people do is get so upset by drinking their own poison and expecting us to die, if anything it stiffens my resolve to run every, single, day and I wont stop wether ZOS bans their sweaty macro use or not.

Ackwalan

oddbasket wrote: »

Is it ok to macro 1 keypress to say 'tyfg' in group chat? I'm kinda lazy.

That would be a hotkey not a macro. Hotkey are fine.

thorwyn

I like turtles

Supreme_Atromancer

oddbasket wrote: »

Is it ok to macro 1 keypress to say 'tyfg' in group chat? I'm kinda lazy.

I KNEW it!!11 There was no way some people could type tyfg so fast. Reported, see you on the banlist, CHEATER!!111

ThePianist

Ps4 has macro controllers and remappable controllers. It may be against a game’s terms of service but it’s not in the bigger picture. Do you guys know why the European Parliament voted to have all phones have the same universal charger? Because a loophole in “terms of service” leads to monopolization. This is why we don’t want phone companies releasing new phones every year with a different charger.

The only real balance in pvp is if we had live tournaments in Esports or something. Everyone has to use tournament keyboards, controllers, ect...90% of these pvp gods would be exposed in a real live tournament because they can’t use their macros .

So what if in another universe, there is a specialized keyboard or controller to specifically play eso. Some genius made it to where you cannot play the game except using this specific type of keyboard. You will still have people that will be better than you. Yeah the forums will be filled with apm spreadsheets comparing yourself to a suspected scripter. “He was able to block every single dawnbreaker...”. Nah bro, the guy that is better than you happens to have what I call supernatural reflexes. 0.4 seconds of dawnbreaker cast time is 3 seconds in his eyes. We have gamers that are like that. The Cs:go god for example, his name starts with an S. There’s crazy videos out there accusing him of having a bionic eye or humanized aimbot. Please...

Tigertron

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Macros are not specifically mentioned anywhere in the ToS. The closest they get to being mentioned are in two instances where it states that you cannot use 3rd party software with the game, which is weirdly interpreted when you look at things like Tamriel Trade Center.

Isn't a macro technically 3rd party software? If you have a gamer's mouse that has extra buttons that can be programmed to play back macros, isn't the software that the mouse uses to record, save, and play back the macros 3rd party software?

As for using the Tamriel Trade Center add-on, using an approved add-on shouldn't be considered to be using 3rd party software. And as far as using the Tamriel Trade Center website to look up listings while playing ESO, that's no more cheating than using the UESPWiki website to look up quest information while playing ESO. So I don't understand what you mean by "weirdly interpreted when you look at things like Tamriel Trade Center."

You would also have to call the driver for the mouse a third party software. Even the OS is then considered 3rd party. I think they had programs like AHK in mind.

Tigertron

Regular key presses don’t fire half the time. A macro would just make things worse. Might work if it was just a weave macro but even that would be more cumbersome than just weaving.

MJallday

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

@ApoAlaia

Did you try on PC or console? I think on PC you've got more options software wise. On console as far as im concerned, i does not work.

There are plenty of individuals using macros on console

Have you not seen the bots in alikrs or the starter zones

Zer0_CooL

MJallday wrote: »

There are plenty of individuals using macros on console

Have you not seen the bots in alikrs or the starter zones

Think bots work not like macros.