Macro

Elsonso

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

Then why are people so sure it is happening? What indications are there that it is a thing? I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I genuinely want to understand where it comes from.

I am sure that it is happening because it _can_ happen. If you always bet that gamers will cheat, you will always be winner.

relentless_turnip

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

Then why are people so sure it is happening? What indications are there that it is a thing? I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I genuinely want to understand where it comes from.

I am sure that it is happening because it _can_ happen. If you always bet that gamers will cheat, you will always be winner.

😂 A fair logic!

Soul_Demon

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

Then why are people so sure it is happening? What indications are there that it is a thing? I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I genuinely want to understand where it comes from.

They are sure because they experience it themselves and have done the research to see it within logs. Going the extra distance to provide it to others creates many headaches for a variety of reasons such as players who insist its just not so and demanding more things be provided beyond what is already been put up.

Generally speaking, as I said before there are three basic types of posters who show up in these threads......"those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered."

Goregrinder

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

Then why are people so sure it is happening? What indications are there that it is a thing? I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I genuinely want to understand where it comes from.

They are sure because they experience it themselves and have done the research to see it within logs. Going the extra distance to provide it to others creates many headaches for a variety of reasons such as players who insist its just not so and demanding more things be provided beyond what is already been put up.

Generally speaking, as I said before there are three basic types of posters who show up in these threads......"those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered."

Your implication is that humans aren't capable of clicking buttons faster than a 1 second GCD. You ever watch a pros play Star Craft? Crazy fast APM right? They must be genetically engineered cyborgs built in an underground military base somewhere in Nova Scotia or something right?

Soul_Demon

Goregrinder wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

Then why are people so sure it is happening? What indications are there that it is a thing? I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I genuinely want to understand where it comes from.

They are sure because they experience it themselves and have done the research to see it within logs. Going the extra distance to provide it to others creates many headaches for a variety of reasons such as players who insist its just not so and demanding more things be provided beyond what is already been put up.

Generally speaking, as I said before there are three basic types of posters who show up in these threads......"those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered."

Your implication is that humans aren't capable of clicking buttons faster than a 1 second GCD. You ever watch a pros play Star Craft? Crazy fast APM right? They must be genetically engineered cyborgs built in an underground military base somewhere in Nova Scotia or something right?

Nah, its just that even if I took the time to link up top gamer APM's and then defined in a nice layout for you nerve conduction velocity and hand eye coordination and went through basically a dissertations worth of explanation as to how intelligent clicks in PvP responding to what you see is NOT the same as APM's in Starcraft along with a quick test challenging you to show us how fast you could do it....there would still be players refusing all of that and even some who dont understand it at all refusing to acknowledge it. At the end of the day, we make no progress. Why bother?

fred4

Goregrinder wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

Then why are people so sure it is happening? What indications are there that it is a thing? I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I genuinely want to understand where it comes from.

They are sure because they experience it themselves and have done the research to see it within logs. Going the extra distance to provide it to others creates many headaches for a variety of reasons such as players who insist its just not so and demanding more things be provided beyond what is already been put up.

Generally speaking, as I said before there are three basic types of posters who show up in these threads......"those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered."

Your implication is that humans aren't capable of clicking buttons faster than a 1 second GCD. You ever watch a pros play Star Craft? Crazy fast APM right? They must be genetically engineered cyborgs built in an underground military base somewhere in Nova Scotia or something right?

OK, I haven't really followed your conversation, but I'll just throw this in there. The human hand-eye coordination time is approx. 200ms. This is apparently fairly constant across the human race and doesn't vary much between individuals. It means that, if you receive a visual stimulus, it takes you 200ms to react with, say, a hand of finger movement. The reaction time to audio cues, I believe, is faster, something like 80ms. Don't ask me where I heard this. Just something that stuck in memory, so I hope I'm not too far off. Interestingly Google did some research to determine how fast their search engine must be, so that people don't immediately click away when they're idly searching for something they're not actually super interested in. You guessed it: 200ms. That's why pages come back in roughly that time. Google engineered it that way.

So, yeah, the notion that the APM required by ESO is taxing to humans - if that's what the conversation is - is IMO silly. We can do better than that, although actually not that much better, not an order of magnitude. At least when you're talking about reacting to video or audio cues. In terms of rattling off a pre-established rotation, I'm sure we can do better still.

Elsonso

Soul_Demon wrote: »

They are sure because they experience it themselves and have done the research to see it within logs. Going the extra distance to provide it to others creates many headaches for a variety of reasons such as players who insist its just not so and demanding more things be provided beyond what is already been put up.

On this matter... I am completely convinced that it is impossible to tell exactly what the other player is doing by watching what happens to you. Everything that that is seen is washed, mangled, and manipulated by the server before it even gets close to being seen. It simply is too hard to tell the difference between someone who is very good at what they do and someone who is using assistance to try to be that good.

The only people who can tell that someone is cheating with macros is ZOS and the person who is cheating.

Soul_Demon

Elsonso wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

They are sure because they experience it themselves and have done the research to see it within logs. Going the extra distance to provide it to others creates many headaches for a variety of reasons such as players who insist its just not so and demanding more things be provided beyond what is already been put up.

On this matter... I am completely convinced that it is impossible to tell exactly what the other player is doing by watching what happens to you. Everything that that is seen is washed, mangled, and manipulated by the server before it even gets close to being seen. It simply is too hard to tell the difference between someone who is very good at what they do and someone who is using assistance to try to be that good.

The only people who can tell that someone is cheating with macros is ZOS and the person who is cheating.

You know, that is probably a good place to be with this......unconvinced. It will keep you playing and trying hard to do so at the highest possible level you can. And right now absolutely anything that keeps people playing is a good thing. See you out there.

Elsonso

fred4 wrote: »

OK, I haven't really followed your conversation, but I'll just throw this in there. The human hand-eye coordination time is approx. 200ms. This is apparently fairly constant across the human race and doesn't vary much between individuals. It means that, if you receive a visual stimulus, it takes you 200ms to react with, say, a hand of finger movement. The reaction time to audio cues, I believe, is faster, something like 80ms. Don't ask me where I heard this. Just something that stuck in memory, so I hope I'm not too far off. Interestingly Google did some research to determine how fast their search engine must be, so that people don't immediately click away when they're idly searching for something they're not actually super interested in. You guessed it: 200ms. That's why pages come back in roughly that time. Google engineered it that way.

I don't disagree. Years ago, before they invented computers, electricity, and indoor plumbing, I worked with a multiplayer game engine that had a max response target of 250ms. Research (not mine) indicated that 250ms was when a normal person will notice the time between initiating the action and the visible response to the action and consider it to be too long.

Soul_Demon

Elsonso wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

OK, I haven't really followed your conversation, but I'll just throw this in there. The human hand-eye coordination time is approx. 200ms. This is apparently fairly constant across the human race and doesn't vary much between individuals. It means that, if you receive a visual stimulus, it takes you 200ms to react with, say, a hand of finger movement. The reaction time to audio cues, I believe, is faster, something like 80ms. Don't ask me where I heard this. Just something that stuck in memory, so I hope I'm not too far off. Interestingly Google did some research to determine how fast their search engine must be, so that people don't immediately click away when they're idly searching for something they're not actually super interested in. You guessed it: 200ms. That's why pages come back in roughly that time. Google engineered it that way.

I don't disagree. Years ago, before they invented computers, electricity, and indoor plumbing, I worked with a multiplayer game engine that had a max response target of 250ms. Research (not mine) indicated that 250ms was when a normal person will notice the time between initiating the action and the visible response to the action and consider it to be too long.

"As the result shows, in Figure 1, the mean visual reaction time is around 331 milliseconds as compared to the mean auditory reaction time of around 284 milliseconds. This confirms that the auditory reaction time is definitely faster compared to the visual reaction time. This finding is similar to the studies done by Pain & Hibbs" Interestingly this study was conducted by only using a single button press repeatedly for the testing, nothing at all comparable to making intelligent decisions and multiple choices to select the correct buttons. Even to start to talk about that gets so much deeper and you begin to measure the distance traveled and time restrictions in cm's traveled from eye to fingers.

Study
Neuroscience & Medicine
Vol.1 No.1(2010), Article ID:2689,3 pages DOI:10.4236/nm.2010.11004

relentless_turnip

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

Then why are people so sure it is happening? What indications are there that it is a thing? I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I genuinely want to understand where it comes from.

They are sure because they experience it themselves and have done the research to see it within logs. Going the extra distance to provide it to others creates many headaches for a variety of reasons such as players who insist its just not so and demanding more things be provided beyond what is already been put up.

Generally speaking, as I said before there are three basic types of posters who show up in these threads......"those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered."

I haven't seen the evidence you are claiming. Feel free to post it, you said others already have so it should be fairly easy. I haven't seen any despite reading the entire thread. I am not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying I don't believe it does because I have seen no evidence of it. I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning something that imo lacks any substance. How do you differentiate your experience of someone using macros to someone who is just good at the game?

Soul_Demon

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

Then why are people so sure it is happening? What indications are there that it is a thing? I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I genuinely want to understand where it comes from.

They are sure because they experience it themselves and have done the research to see it within logs. Going the extra distance to provide it to others creates many headaches for a variety of reasons such as players who insist its just not so and demanding more things be provided beyond what is already been put up.

Generally speaking, as I said before there are three basic types of posters who show up in these threads......"those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered."

I haven't seen the evidence you are claiming. Feel free to post it, you said others already have so it should be fairly easy. I haven't seen any despite reading the entire thread. I am not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying I don't believe it does because I have seen no evidence of it. I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning something that imo lacks any substance. How do you differentiate your experience of someone using macros to someone who is just good at the game?

Its listed in the message-

As far as how I personally differentiate? I use either the really simple version, FTC that shows actions per 1/1000 (pulled from game) of seconds for short views and if I dont like what I see there I use the logs for ESO to get a better and much longer view of what a single player is doing. However the logs can be time consuming and you will find take quite a bit of time to rule out who is who in them first, then deep dive into that single players activities for prolonged periods. Complicated and painstaking for sure, but as I mentioned its something you see some players doing repeatedly and I am inquisitive like that as to needing to know for sure.

relentless_turnip

Elsonso wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

They are sure because they experience it themselves and have done the research to see it within logs. Going the extra distance to provide it to others creates many headaches for a variety of reasons such as players who insist its just not so and demanding more things be provided beyond what is already been put up.

On this matter... I am completely convinced that it is impossible to tell exactly what the other player is doing by watching what happens to you. Everything that that is seen is washed, mangled, and manipulated by the server before it even gets close to being seen. It simply is too hard to tell the difference between someone who is very good at what they do and someone who is using assistance to try to be that good.

The only people who can tell that someone is cheating with macros is ZOS and the person who is cheating.

I totally agree with this 👍

Goregrinder

fred4 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

Then why are people so sure it is happening? What indications are there that it is a thing? I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I genuinely want to understand where it comes from.

They are sure because they experience it themselves and have done the research to see it within logs. Going the extra distance to provide it to others creates many headaches for a variety of reasons such as players who insist its just not so and demanding more things be provided beyond what is already been put up.

Generally speaking, as I said before there are three basic types of posters who show up in these threads......"those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered."

Your implication is that humans aren't capable of clicking buttons faster than a 1 second GCD. You ever watch a pros play Star Craft? Crazy fast APM right? They must be genetically engineered cyborgs built in an underground military base somewhere in Nova Scotia or something right?

OK, I haven't really followed your conversation, but I'll just throw this in there. The human hand-eye coordination time is approx. 200ms. This is apparently fairly constant across the human race and doesn't vary much between individuals. It means that, if you receive a visual stimulus, it takes you 200ms to react with, say, a hand of finger movement. The reaction time to audio cues, I believe, is faster, something like 80ms. Don't ask me where I heard this. Just something that stuck in memory, so I hope I'm not too far off. Interestingly Google did some research to determine how fast their search engine must be, so that people don't immediately click away when they're idly searching for something they're not actually super interested in. You guessed it: 200ms. That's why pages come back in roughly that time. Google engineered it that way.

So, yeah, the notion that the APM required by ESO is taxing to humans - if that's what the conversation is - is IMO silly. We can do better than that, although actually not that much better, not an order of magnitude. At least when you're talking about reacting to video or audio cues. In terms of rattling off a pre-established rotation, I'm sure we can do better still.

Yup. I'm pointing out that as far as impossible APM metrics for an average human to hit...ESO does not have those. I mean, I'm in my mid 30's, don't actively train my brain or try to increase the reliability between my brain and other sensors or nerves in my body. In fact, at age 35, my body is already about 10 years into it's deterioration process including the brain. With that, my most recent reaction time tests put me at about 281ms.

So for an old fart like me, I'm only 81ms on average behind someone probably in their late teens, early 20's. And within 100ms of the average professional gamer. But all I would need to beat the 1 second GCD is to have like 900ms reaction time or lower. ESO's bar is really low compared to other games, so I agree with you that to say ESO requires inhumane reactions is silly.

fred4

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Interestingly this study was conducted by only using a single button press repeatedly for the testing, nothing at all comparable to making intelligent decisions and multiple choices to select the correct buttons.

Ah, yes, and that is why the most appropriate reaction to being surprised (ganked) is always the same: A dodge roll . I guess depending on build it could also be to block, but attack any decent player and you'll notice that many do something to get their bearings at first. They heal, they buff, they size you up and only then do they kill you (the squishy NB), if you're not careful. I guess if you're really good, if you are a 1vXer maybe, you'll multitask, but many players manage their decision making speed and it's a valid tactic. That couid be by just being tanky, by streaking, by (excessive) dodge rolling, or by immediately heading towards that gap between the stairs and the wall in some IC buildings .

WrathOfInnos

I’m not seeing the connection between reaction time and macros. Is there evidence of macros doing something reactive like breaking free quicker than humanly possible (without using the new CP)? If we’re just talking about a predefined sequence of skills in a PVE rotation or PVP burst combo then no reaction time is needed. Players can do these things blindfolded with accuracy within tens of milliseconds.

I’m also curious which trial guild is recommending macro use. Is it on PC/NA?

Soul_Demon

Goregrinder wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

Then why are people so sure it is happening? What indications are there that it is a thing? I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I genuinely want to understand where it comes from.

They are sure because they experience it themselves and have done the research to see it within logs. Going the extra distance to provide it to others creates many headaches for a variety of reasons such as players who insist its just not so and demanding more things be provided beyond what is already been put up.

Generally speaking, as I said before there are three basic types of posters who show up in these threads......"those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered."

Your implication is that humans aren't capable of clicking buttons faster than a 1 second GCD. You ever watch a pros play Star Craft? Crazy fast APM right? They must be genetically engineered cyborgs built in an underground military base somewhere in Nova Scotia or something right?

OK, I haven't really followed your conversation, but I'll just throw this in there. The human hand-eye coordination time is approx. 200ms. This is apparently fairly constant across the human race and doesn't vary much between individuals. It means that, if you receive a visual stimulus, it takes you 200ms to react with, say, a hand of finger movement. The reaction time to audio cues, I believe, is faster, something like 80ms. Don't ask me where I heard this. Just something that stuck in memory, so I hope I'm not too far off. Interestingly Google did some research to determine how fast their search engine must be, so that people don't immediately click away when they're idly searching for something they're not actually super interested in. You guessed it: 200ms. That's why pages come back in roughly that time. Google engineered it that way.

So, yeah, the notion that the APM required by ESO is taxing to humans - if that's what the conversation is - is IMO silly. We can do better than that, although actually not that much better, not an order of magnitude. At least when you're talking about reacting to video or audio cues. In terms of rattling off a pre-established rotation, I'm sure we can do better still.

Yup. I'm pointing out that as far as impossible APM metrics for an average human to hit...ESO does not have those. I mean, I'm in my mid 30's, don't actively train my brain or try to increase the reliability between my brain and other sensors or nerves in my body. In fact, at age 35, my body is already about 10 years into it's deterioration process including the brain. With that, my most recent reaction time tests put me at about 281ms.

So for an old fart like me, I'm only 81ms on average behind someone probably in their late teens, early 20's. And within 100ms of the average professional gamer. But all I would need to beat the 1 second GCD is to have like 900ms reaction time or lower. ESO's bar is really low compared to other games, so I agree with you that to say ESO requires inhumane reactions is silly.

Well, I guess the quote you spoke to did say he did not bother to read the thread...but the discussion wasn't was ESO beyond peoples ability to play or difficult APM to reach, it was is some of the play you see possible.

Goregrinder

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mainly what I'm saying is that I have seen many threads that claim macro use, but I have never seen evidence of it actually presented. I remember in one thread someone saying you can't visually see the difference, to which I asked how do you know it is happening then? And they didn't have an answer. I am not saying they aren't used, I am just saying I have never seen evidence to make such claims from my point of view. I have always been able to understand(even if it took a while) why another player out performed me. I have yet to reach the conclusion that they cheated in some way. That isn't an accusation to anyone else, it is simply my perspective formed from my experiences.

You won't easily find such proof. The people who can really generate the proof you want aren't going to do it because they would incriminate themselves. It really has to be shown from the side of the person using it. On top of that, ZOS doesn't want people providing proof, either. Especially, not here or linked from here.

Then why are people so sure it is happening? What indications are there that it is a thing? I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I genuinely want to understand where it comes from.

They are sure because they experience it themselves and have done the research to see it within logs. Going the extra distance to provide it to others creates many headaches for a variety of reasons such as players who insist its just not so and demanding more things be provided beyond what is already been put up.

Generally speaking, as I said before there are three basic types of posters who show up in these threads......"those who read and try to take in all the information, the ones who present evidence with screenshots and well written out posts detailing what they are saying, and the last type who emphatically hand wave claiming players are faster than normal nerve conduction and hand eye coordination and demand more proof be supplied to them because---well, suspiciously they have nothing but "nuh uh...get good kid, ltp" to say about all the other proof offered."

Your implication is that humans aren't capable of clicking buttons faster than a 1 second GCD. You ever watch a pros play Star Craft? Crazy fast APM right? They must be genetically engineered cyborgs built in an underground military base somewhere in Nova Scotia or something right?

OK, I haven't really followed your conversation, but I'll just throw this in there. The human hand-eye coordination time is approx. 200ms. This is apparently fairly constant across the human race and doesn't vary much between individuals. It means that, if you receive a visual stimulus, it takes you 200ms to react with, say, a hand of finger movement. The reaction time to audio cues, I believe, is faster, something like 80ms. Don't ask me where I heard this. Just something that stuck in memory, so I hope I'm not too far off. Interestingly Google did some research to determine how fast their search engine must be, so that people don't immediately click away when they're idly searching for something they're not actually super interested in. You guessed it: 200ms. That's why pages come back in roughly that time. Google engineered it that way.

So, yeah, the notion that the APM required by ESO is taxing to humans - if that's what the conversation is - is IMO silly. We can do better than that, although actually not that much better, not an order of magnitude. At least when you're talking about reacting to video or audio cues. In terms of rattling off a pre-established rotation, I'm sure we can do better still.

Yup. I'm pointing out that as far as impossible APM metrics for an average human to hit...ESO does not have those. I mean, I'm in my mid 30's, don't actively train my brain or try to increase the reliability between my brain and other sensors or nerves in my body. In fact, at age 35, my body is already about 10 years into it's deterioration process including the brain. With that, my most recent reaction time tests put me at about 281ms.

So for an old fart like me, I'm only 81ms on average behind someone probably in their late teens, early 20's. And within 100ms of the average professional gamer. But all I would need to beat the 1 second GCD is to have like 900ms reaction time or lower. ESO's bar is really low compared to other games, so I agree with you that to say ESO requires inhumane reactions is silly.

Well, I guess the quote you spoke to did say he did not bother to read the thread...but the discussion wasn't was ESO beyond peoples ability to play or difficult APM to reach, it was is some of the play you see possible.

Yeah, and it pretty much is very possible. That doesn't mean people don't cheat, just that someone doing something well itself isn't cheating. People can in fact be that good.

Ackwalan

The only evidence that will prove beyond doubt that people are using macros can only come from people using macros. They aren't going to provide that. Do you remember when CE absolutely did not work in ESO because there was no proof beyond doubt? Well the person that showed that evidence was one of the few people that received an actual permanent ban, most others got let back in. People have learned, not to provide concrete evidence.

Soul_Demon

Ackwalan wrote: »

The only evidence that will prove beyond doubt that people are using macros can only come from people using macros. They aren't going to provide that. Do you remember when CE absolutely did not work in ESO because there was no proof beyond doubt? Well the person that showed that evidence was one of the few people that received an actual permanent ban, most others got let back in. People have learned, not to provide concrete evidence.

If you think about it, you really dont need to show anyone anything......being in the dark is something a lot of people choose to do of their own accord. Mostly due to the amount of effort or thinking required to be well informed in dive into the details of whatever the subject matter is. For quite a large number of people its just too much. So, what you will have is a case of those who swim in the deep end of the pool and those who stay firmly in the shallows yelling over to the deep end to come bring them over with floats.

SeaGtGruff

fred4 wrote: »

Specifically I am wondering when a GCD starts. Is it based on the time you started combat and is it, therefore, personal to you or is it, as the name implies, a GLOBAL clock that runs on the server in 1 second ticks and that is COMMON to all players.

@fred4, thank you for a very interesting read. My guess about the GCD would be that it's common to all players, but that's just speculation based on something I've noticed about evaporating bounties, and there might be no relevance between the two.

What I noticed is that when I get a bounty the first decrease in the bounty can happen very soon after getting the bounty, but subsequent decreases occur at 3-minute intervals after the first decrease. In fact, IIRC the decreases happen at times where the minutes are divisible by 3-- 1:00, 1:03, 1:06, etc.-- although I'll have to get a large bounty and watch patiently as my bounty goes down to confirm all of this.

Okay, I checked on that to confirm before posting. I didn't notice when the first decrease occurred, but the ones I did see were always on times divisible by 3 minutes-- 10:12, 10:15, 10:18, etc. It wasn't right when the time changed, but several seconds after, but the minutes are always multiples of 3.

It does seem sensible for most of the in-game timers to be common to all players. Obviously some must be specific to each player, such as the 20-hour cooldowns for daily fencing limits, daily random dungeon rewards, etc. But if all cooldown timers were player-specific, it would put a huge burden on the server.

blktauna

furiouslog wrote: »

The process, as I understand it, is to interrupt your own connection at the start or middle of the attack, execute the rotation, and re-establish the connection. The server gets the commands all at once, and will catch up. The target player sees no indication that they were ever being attacked until the rotation is over and has been applied, and they have had no opportunity to fire a single skill, block, drop a pot, nothing. The log will show a well timed rotation within the GCD parameters, so there is no proof of anything.

This is very old school and exists from the old days of dial up. I know because I did it. (I don't now btw)
I'm also pretty sure I know who these players are you have suspicions on. One of my group monitors packets while we are in cyrodil and lo and behold stuff goes crazy when certain people are around.

I think the best thing is to just not give them fights. See them and leave. I want to have fun with my cyrodil time, not be frustrated by these sad people who feel the need to do these things.

Earthewen

Ackwalan wrote: »

The only evidence that will prove beyond doubt that people are using macros can only come from people using macros. They aren't going to provide that. Do you remember when CE absolutely did not work in ESO because there was no proof beyond doubt? Well the person that showed that evidence was one of the few people that received an actual permanent ban, most others got let back in. People have learned, not to provide concrete evidence.

I do agree with you to a point. Human psychology tells us that people will not admit to doing something that they know is against the rules. (Lance Armstrong?) It is human nature to hide what you're doing. It is also the nature of humans to get every advantage that they can and/or take the path of least resistance. To say that "NO ONE MACROS" is foolish. People will macro if they can. They give in to the parts of the human nature that are ... shall we say ... less than honorable.

As to proof ... Only ZOS can verify for sure who is macroing and who isn't. Logic, however, would indicate for the rest of us that we are not crazy when we experience the effects out in Cyro. The human body just doesn't work that fast. The electrical impulses of the human nervous system simply cannot send the signals that fast (after which the body must take additional time to respond) to get those skills off. Only the autonomic nervous system can fire off signals that fast for the desired response to the muscles.

Furthermore, we have the indicators within the logs themselves which have already been spoken about in previous posts.

Goregrinder

Earthewen wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

The only evidence that will prove beyond doubt that people are using macros can only come from people using macros. They aren't going to provide that. Do you remember when CE absolutely did not work in ESO because there was no proof beyond doubt? Well the person that showed that evidence was one of the few people that received an actual permanent ban, most others got let back in. People have learned, not to provide concrete evidence.

I do agree with you to a point. Human psychology tells us that people will not admit to doing something that they know is against the rules. (Lance Armstrong?) It is human nature to hide what you're doing. It is also the nature of humans to get every advantage that they can and/or take the path of least resistance. To say that "NO ONE MACROS" is foolish. People will macro if they can. They give in to the parts of the human nature that are ... shall we say ... less than honorable.

As to proof ... Only ZOS can verify for sure who is macroing and who isn't. Logic, however, would indicate for the rest of us that we are not crazy when we experience the effects out in Cyro. The human body just doesn't work that fast. The electrical impulses of the human nervous system simply cannot send the signals that fast (after which the body must take additional time to respond) to get those skills off. Only the autonomic nervous system can fire off signals that fast for the desired response to the muscles.

Furthermore, we have the indicators within the logs themselves which have already been spoken about in previous posts.

Oh believe me, there are people who do use macros. In any game, not just ESO. But someone doing really really well isn't evidence that they are using a macro.

WrathOfInnos

Earthewen wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

The only evidence that will prove beyond doubt that people are using macros can only come from people using macros. They aren't going to provide that. Do you remember when CE absolutely did not work in ESO because there was no proof beyond doubt? Well the person that showed that evidence was one of the few people that received an actual permanent ban, most others got let back in. People have learned, not to provide concrete evidence.

I do agree with you to a point. Human psychology tells us that people will not admit to doing something that they know is against the rules. (Lance Armstrong?) It is human nature to hide what you're doing. It is also the nature of humans to get every advantage that they can and/or take the path of least resistance. To say that "NO ONE MACROS" is foolish. People will macro if they can. They give in to the parts of the human nature that are ... shall we say ... less than honorable.

As to proof ... Only ZOS can verify for sure who is macroing and who isn't. Logic, however, would indicate for the rest of us that we are not crazy when we experience the effects out in Cyro. The human body just doesn't work that fast. The electrical impulses of the human nervous system simply cannot send the signals that fast (after which the body must take additional time to respond) to get those skills off. Only the autonomic nervous system can fire off signals that fast for the desired response to the muscles.

Furthermore, we have the indicators within the logs themselves which have already been spoken about in previous posts.

I do believe people attempt to macro, but I don’t think it is an advantage or the path of least resistance.

Can you explain the part about the human nervous system? In my experience humans can perform skills at least as fast, if not faster, than macros. It’s generally 2 key presses per second, with a predetermined rhythm, and a fairly generous input window for perfect results. If something required reacting instantly I would agree that is suspicious, but I haven’t seen any examples of that.

Soul_Demon

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

The only evidence that will prove beyond doubt that people are using macros can only come from people using macros. They aren't going to provide that. Do you remember when CE absolutely did not work in ESO because there was no proof beyond doubt? Well the person that showed that evidence was one of the few people that received an actual permanent ban, most others got let back in. People have learned, not to provide concrete evidence.

I do agree with you to a point. Human psychology tells us that people will not admit to doing something that they know is against the rules. (Lance Armstrong?) It is human nature to hide what you're doing. It is also the nature of humans to get every advantage that they can and/or take the path of least resistance. To say that "NO ONE MACROS" is foolish. People will macro if they can. They give in to the parts of the human nature that are ... shall we say ... less than honorable.

As to proof ... Only ZOS can verify for sure who is macroing and who isn't. Logic, however, would indicate for the rest of us that we are not crazy when we experience the effects out in Cyro. The human body just doesn't work that fast. The electrical impulses of the human nervous system simply cannot send the signals that fast (after which the body must take additional time to respond) to get those skills off. Only the autonomic nervous system can fire off signals that fast for the desired response to the muscles.

Furthermore, we have the indicators within the logs themselves which have already been spoken about in previous posts.

I do believe people attempt to macro, but I don’t think it is an advantage or the path of least resistance.

Can you explain the part about the human nervous system? In my experience humans can perform skills at least as fast, if not faster, than macros. It’s generally 2 key presses per second, with a predetermined rhythm, and a fairly generous input window for perfect results. If something required reacting instantly I would agree that is suspicious, but I haven’t seen any examples of that.

"The nervous system can broadly be subdivided into 2 main categories, the central and peripheral nervous system. The central nervous system comprises the brain and spinal cord. Alternatively, the peripheral nervous system comprises the nerves outside of the brain and spinal cord.

The peripheral nervous system can then be subdivided into the somatic and autonomic nervous system.
The somatic nervous system controls voluntary skeletal muscle movement as well as relays sensory information from the periphery to the brain. The autonomic nervous system controls involuntary physiological responses, such as controlling heart rate and smooth muscle contraction/relaxation of the blood vessels, stomach, and intestines."

I do believe the suggestion was reminding us that the nerve conductivity quotes some make largely come from studies done on the autonomic system with those speeds---and NOT done on the voluntary somatic that would be used in something where you take in stimuli, decode in the brain and send to frontal cortex to process correct action, then send out to peripheral (hands) to complete an action. Kind of a "yeah, that speed is fast...but that is involuntary movement from a shock and not intelligent, controlled movements"

Goregrinder

Soul_Demon wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

The only evidence that will prove beyond doubt that people are using macros can only come from people using macros. They aren't going to provide that. Do you remember when CE absolutely did not work in ESO because there was no proof beyond doubt? Well the person that showed that evidence was one of the few people that received an actual permanent ban, most others got let back in. People have learned, not to provide concrete evidence.

I do agree with you to a point. Human psychology tells us that people will not admit to doing something that they know is against the rules. (Lance Armstrong?) It is human nature to hide what you're doing. It is also the nature of humans to get every advantage that they can and/or take the path of least resistance. To say that "NO ONE MACROS" is foolish. People will macro if they can. They give in to the parts of the human nature that are ... shall we say ... less than honorable.

As to proof ... Only ZOS can verify for sure who is macroing and who isn't. Logic, however, would indicate for the rest of us that we are not crazy when we experience the effects out in Cyro. The human body just doesn't work that fast. The electrical impulses of the human nervous system simply cannot send the signals that fast (after which the body must take additional time to respond) to get those skills off. Only the autonomic nervous system can fire off signals that fast for the desired response to the muscles.

Furthermore, we have the indicators within the logs themselves which have already been spoken about in previous posts.

I do believe people attempt to macro, but I don’t think it is an advantage or the path of least resistance.

Can you explain the part about the human nervous system? In my experience humans can perform skills at least as fast, if not faster, than macros. It’s generally 2 key presses per second, with a predetermined rhythm, and a fairly generous input window for perfect results. If something required reacting instantly I would agree that is suspicious, but I haven’t seen any examples of that.

"The nervous system can broadly be subdivided into 2 main categories, the central and peripheral nervous system. The central nervous system comprises the brain and spinal cord. Alternatively, the peripheral nervous system comprises the nerves outside of the brain and spinal cord.

The peripheral nervous system can then be subdivided into the somatic and autonomic nervous system.
The somatic nervous system controls voluntary skeletal muscle movement as well as relays sensory information from the periphery to the brain. The autonomic nervous system controls involuntary physiological responses, such as controlling heart rate and smooth muscle contraction/relaxation of the blood vessels, stomach, and intestines."

I do believe the suggestion was reminding us that the nerve conductivity quotes some make largely come from studies done on the autonomic system with those speeds---and NOT done on the voluntary somatic that would be used in something where you take in stimuli, decode in the brain and send to frontal cortex to process correct action, then send out to peripheral (hands) to complete an action. Kind of a "yeah, that speed is fast...but that is involuntary movement from a shock and not intelligent, controlled movements"

Sure, but ESO does not require intelligent movement at those speeds. We're talking a 1 second GCD.

Casdha

I'm not sure about combat macros but as for proof I posted this a long time ago (forgive the drab outfit lol)

The key here is to pay particular attention to the chat box.

This whole video is nothing but performing emotes with the macros I had programmed in my keyboard at the time and not once did the slash command show up on the chat box.

The macros in this video are programmed with no timing in between strokes, so I'm "assuming" when the server receives them it does so as a command and doesn't even bother registering them on the chat box.

Now it is up to you to decide if combat can do the same thing, I have not tried it because I play this game more like UT or Quake 3 and I like to react to what I see (where do you think double tap dodge comes from) and could care less about a rotation as I consider even the idea of rotations boring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5BC1pBAn88

Earthewen

I think what we're all saying here is that there needs to be some fixes in order for cyro to become really fun again. So what do we know for sure?

1) People are macroing and using certain game mechanics that don't work properly as exploits during combat. Period. No one can assure us that what we see as individuals is just us being crazy. Logs and other concrete evidence exists.

2) CC immunity is completely broken. We have entered the age of CC flooding that renders any immunity code as useless.

3) Any new changes made that changes the basic combat hasn't helped with lag. Period. What has happened is the fun has lessened over the series of changes.

So what do we all seem to be agreeing on? Here is the short list ...

1) The ability to macro and/or cheat and/or exploit needs to be addressed either through in game code/functions, a cheat finder program that I know exist, or possibly quick in game investigation that doesn't rely on players to conduct.

2) CC immunity must be looked at and changed in a serious fashion. If groups continue to CC flood, for the sake of everyone including solo players, this has to be fixed. Period. Nothing else will influence the fun factor, in my opinion, more than this. It will give those who are stuck relentlessly in the CC flood a bit of a chance and more control over their own toon again. It will give them a chance to actually fight rather than just stand still for 10 secs or more wiggling until they die.

3) Until ZOS takes the fun of the players more seriously, nothing else they do will matter really. We may not represent the majority of players (those of us that love pvp), but we are still customers of ZOS. We deserve to have some of these things fixed rather than ignored.

WrathOfInnos

I haven’t seen a shred of evidence that anyone is using macros to get a combat advantage. There was one screenshot of a log that showed skill use slightly slower than the GCD, without even giving time stamps to accurately determine how much slower. 99% chance this was a player pressing keys to use skills.

I’d strongly caution against asking for more server checks to detect such things. Before cheat engine existed Cyrodiil was incredibly smooth. There would be hundreds of players fighting over keeps, and little to no lag. Obviously cheating couldn’t be allowed, so ZOS was forced to shift many calculations from the client to the server. It was never designed to handle all of that, and the result was that Cyrodiil lag has been a problem ever since. Cheat engine effectively ruined PVP for everyone.

I don’t think a tin foil hat theory about macros justifies additional server checks and calculations. It will just make the game run worse for everyone. I’d prefer if nobody used macros, but I also believe they are detrimental to the user and have little to no effect on others (still uses skills within the GCD). I’d lose a fight to a good player much quicker than to a macro.