Macro

Primidone

What’s ZOS’s stance on macro? Plenty of ppl in my high-end PvE guild are using macros to make their rotation perfect. They said ZOS doesn’t care as long as you don’t use third-party softwares. But if you have macros built in your hardware, it’s totally ok. Is this true?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Macros are certainly against the TOS. Whether they result in a sanction is a much different story. In PVE, its unlikely to be reported, so chances are nothing happens.

This almost feels like a bait post, but I will tell you, the best players don't use them. Sounds like your guild stinks too be honest, I would find a new one. You might be able to smooth over some rough spots and increase a dummy parse with them, but any type of scripted action in actual content, especially with lag in the equation, can result in you being dead when you are unable to react.

VoidCommander

Macros are not specifically mentioned anywhere in the ToS. The closest they get to being mentioned are in two instances where it states that you cannot use 3rd party software with the game, which is weirdly interpreted when you look at things like Tamriel Trade Center.

The other is that you cannot have your character taking actions without you being present. The only forum thread I have found about someone being banned for macro use, was because they were using it to farm some boss or something while they were afk. THAT is undoubtedly against ToS because it is basically "budget botting."

Whether in PvP or PvE, there is no definitive way to prove someone is using macros. Since ZoS does not own the servers ESO runs on, they are allegedly not able to track things like "this player casts a skill perfectly to the millisecond every second." If someone resurrects and are suddenly doing a rotation because they forgot to turn off their macro when they died, that is probably the only way to really KNOW someone is using a macro, but still impossible to definitively prove. Additionally, in the grand scheme of things macros are quite harmless to the player-base at large.

As for your guildmates being trash, it is true that a macro will never reach the maximum possible dps, but it will get you really, really close. Using a macro does not lock you into a 30 second commitment of actions, most macros are easily cancelable if you get stunned or something. Just because someone doesn't have the dozens of hours to master a rotation that will need to be changed with the next combat update doesn't mean they are trash, not knowing how to adapt to mechanics, dying needlessly, and being toxic is what makes them trash.

Myrddin1357

Primidone wrote: »

What’s ZOS’s stance on macro? Plenty of ppl in my high-end PvE guild are using macros to make their rotation perfect.

This is simply not true. Macros cannot be used to automate rotations in dungeons and trials. As Oreyn says, your skills just won't go off due to mechanics, lag, etc. You can test this on PTS yourself if you really want.

Those who say end gamers use macros to be good are not being accurate. End gamers practice their rotation a lot and it is really not that hard to get good at pressing two buttons every 1 sec to fire off a light attack and skill.

caesarvs

Like @Myrddin1357 said, macros don't automate rotations, like "press one button and see the magic 90k dps or so happening". What i already saw are stuff the helps putting LA between your skill inputs (be it 3rd party software or adjusting your gaming mouse buttons), but still, the rotation you do normally.
The thing is, even if its not allowed, with server lag and no anticheat software running in background (e.g. BattlEye), how they are supposed to knew if someone is using or not such things?
Also, the la-weaving itself is already something that "skip" the visual clues from the actions manually imputed, and both that and macros/tweaks can't bypass the GCD.
On one thing, I agree with @Oreyn_Bearclaw : from what i already saw, the high-end dpser's never use them. Still, with some mouse tweaks you can get good numbers without much hassle.
As for your guildies using them, to each their own. If you play with them, like it, and clear your vet stuff alright, don't worry about it. It's not like yourself was breaking some ToS. No need to take that "stinky guild" matter so serious.
Personally, i think the moment that zos "legitimated" the animation cancelling as a result of good la-weaving, they kinda woudn't do anything about macros. The way it is currently, from my point of view it's not so different from addons that automate actions, like lazy crafter, widely used from players.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

VoidCommander wrote: »

Macros are not specifically mentioned anywhere in the ToS. The closest they get to being mentioned are in two instances where it states that you cannot use 3rd party software with the game, which is weirdly interpreted when you look at things like Tamriel Trade Center.

The other is that you cannot have your character taking actions without you being present. The only forum thread I have found about someone being banned for macro use, was because they were using it to farm some boss or something while they were afk. THAT is undoubtedly against ToS because it is basically "budget botting."

Whether in PvP or PvE, there is no definitive way to prove someone is using macros. Since ZoS does not own the servers ESO runs on, they are allegedly not able to track things like "this player casts a skill perfectly to the millisecond every second." If someone resurrects and are suddenly doing a rotation because they forgot to turn off their macro when they died, that is probably the only way to really KNOW someone is using a macro, but still impossible to definitively prove. Additionally, in the grand scheme of things macros are quite harmless to the player-base at large.

As for your guildmates being trash, it is true that a macro will never reach the maximum possible dps, but it will get you really, really close. Using a macro does not lock you into a 30 second commitment of actions, most macros are easily cancelable if you get stunned or something. Just because someone doesn't have the dozens of hours to master a rotation that will need to be changed with the next combat update doesn't mean they are trash, not knowing how to adapt to mechanics, dying needlessly, and being toxic is what makes them trash.

A macro requires some form of 3rd party software. Any keyboard/mouse capable of programing macros is going to have some sort of software that has nothing to do with ZOS.

caesarvs wrote: »

Like @Myrddin1357 said, macros don't automate rotations, like "press one button and see the magic 90k dps or so happening". What i already saw are stuff the helps putting LA between your skill inputs (be it 3rd party software or adjusting your gaming mouse buttons), but still, the rotation you do normally.
The thing is, even if its not allowed, with server lag and no anticheat software running in background (e.g. BattlEye), how they are supposed to knew if someone is using or not such things?
Also, the la-weaving itself is already something that "skip" the visual clues from the actions manually imputed, and both that and macros/tweaks can't bypass the GCD.
On one thing, I agree with @Oreyn_Bearclaw : from what i already saw, the high-end dpser's never use them. Still, with some mouse tweaks you can get good numbers without much hassle.
As for your guildies using them, to each their own. If you play with them, like it, and clear your vet stuff alright, don't worry about it. It's not like yourself was breaking some ToS. No need to take that "stinky guild" matter so serious.
Personally, i think the moment that zos "legitimated" the animation cancelling as a result of good la-weaving, they kinda woudn't do anything about macros. The way it is currently, from my point of view it's not so different from addons that automate actions, like lazy crafter, widely used from players.

I do think there is a massive difference when it comes to combat. Dont get me wrong, I love lazy writ crafter, and part of me is surprised that it has been allowed to exist, but it is wildly different when you are competing head to head whether its PVP or PVE leaderboards.

If you have a guild that is actively encouraging macro use, well, I stand by my above statement. That guild stinks. And I say that, because what I really want to say will get snipped.

Malkiv

Section 9 of the ESO TOS:

“ You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your access to or receipt, play or use of the Services.”

This limits the use of third-party software to that which is directed through the ESO API. This is why addons are not breaking TOS, and using macros (through software or hardware) not directly input through the ESO API is.

Using third-party software/hardware that does not push the inputs through the ESO API to automatically add (i.e. without additional input by the user) a Light Attack is against TOS. Perfect Weave is allowed, because all input is done through the API to hit the client. Lazy Writ Crafter is allowed, because even though there are automated process, all input is done through the API to hit the client.

It doesn't matter if it's not a full string/combination of attacks. If it is third-party and it is not performed through the ESO API, then it is against TOS.

Edit for clarification.

SeaGtGruff

VoidCommander wrote: »

Macros are not specifically mentioned anywhere in the ToS. The closest they get to being mentioned are in two instances where it states that you cannot use 3rd party software with the game, which is weirdly interpreted when you look at things like Tamriel Trade Center.

Isn't a macro technically 3rd party software? If you have a gamer's mouse that has extra buttons that can be programmed to play back macros, isn't the software that the mouse uses to record, save, and play back the macros 3rd party software?

As for using the Tamriel Trade Center add-on, using an approved add-on shouldn't be considered to be using 3rd party software. And as far as using the Tamriel Trade Center website to look up listings while playing ESO, that's no more cheating than using the UESPWiki website to look up quest information while playing ESO. So I don't understand what you mean by "weirdly interpreted when you look at things like Tamriel Trade Center."

rbfrgsp

Malkiv wrote: »

Section 9 of the ESO TOS:

“ You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your access to or receipt, play or use of the Services.”

This limits the use of third-party software to that which is directed through the ESO API. This is why addons are not breaking TOS, and using macros (through software or hardware) not directly input through the ESO API is.

Using third-party software/hardware that does not push the inputs through the ESO API to automatically add (i.e. without additional input by the user) a Light Attack is against TOS. Perfect Weave is allowed, because all input is done through the API to hit the client. Lazy Writ Crafter is allowed, because even though there are automated process, all input is done through the API to hit the client.

It doesn't matter if it's not a full string/combination of attacks. If it is third-party and it is not performed through the ESO API, then it is against TOS.

Edit for clarification.

Well done finding the specific paragraph. I knew for a fact that if read something which essentially defines programmed mouse / key buttons as explicitly breaking the ToS. The bit you've quote was that section.

If you have a combat logger that timestamps actions then you might be able to notice the suspicion of macros in PvP. Basically, fight someone notice a suspicious burst combo. Save the combat log, and then find them and fight them again. If they use an identical burst and all the skills land within tenths of seconds of the previous fight it's a decent indicator.

karekiz

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

You might be able to smooth over some rough spots and increase a dummy parse with them, but any type of scripted action in actual content, especially with lag in the equation, can result in you being dead when you are unable to react.

Highly depends on scripting of Macro and Mechanics of script <Also what the game itself allows to be viewed>. High Quality Macros can do amazing things in most any MMO I have played, and yes, that does include reacting to scripts.

Take something like Tombs, as long as scripts can "See" tomb spawns, yes, indeed you can literally write a handfree "Tomb DPS" macro. While I dont use macros in ESO I do use them in Everquest, and have seen entire teams perform mechanics very similar to ESO's raids.

Lag isn't as big an issue as people make it out tbh.

Its just a PITA to set up

Jeremy

Primidone wrote: »

What’s ZOS’s stance on macro? Plenty of ppl in my high-end PvE guild are using macros to make their rotation perfect. They said ZOS doesn’t care as long as you don’t use third-party softwares. But if you have macros built in your hardware, it’s totally ok. Is this true?

Anything that automates any aspect of the gameplay is technically against the rules. So that would definitely include macros.

But as you say, they are commonly used on this game (I know plenty of people who use them too) and most of them tell me the same thing, that ZoS doesn't care. And considering nothing ever happens to them, well, you know what they say, actions speak louder than words.

Jeremy

karekiz wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

You might be able to smooth over some rough spots and increase a dummy parse with them, but any type of scripted action in actual content, especially with lag in the equation, can result in you being dead when you are unable to react.

Highly depends on scripting of Macro and Mechanics of script <Also what the game itself allows to be viewed>. High Quality Macros can do amazing things in most any MMO I have played, and yes, that does include reacting to scripts.

Take something like Tombs, as long as scripts can "See" tomb spawns, yes, indeed you can literally write a handfree "Tomb DPS" macro. While I dont use macros in ESO I do use them in Everquest, and have seen entire teams perform mechanics very similar to ESO's raids.

Lag isn't as big an issue as people make it out tbh.

Its just a PITA to set up

In my experience, macros can definitely make you better.

I haven't used them on this game. But on other MMORPGs, like in WoW for example, I learned how to use them and they helped me a lot.

VoidCommander

The ToS say that 3rd party software that gives you a competitive advantage, and at the same time everyone here is saying that people who use macros are worse than those who don't. Therefore, macros don't give you any real advantage, they simply make doing what others can do much less stress intensive, increasing the comfort of playing the game and not putting anyone else at a real disadvantage.

It is not as though people who use macros are suddenly able to outparse the best players in the world, but it does shave about 2 years off the learning curve for the game, as well as aid those who are older or might not have that youthful attention span for complex rotations. ZoS likely doesn't go out of its way to publicly condone the use of macros because a large percentage of players use them, banning it could be viewed as discriminatory towards disabled persons, and at the end of the day it only helps lesson the gap between players without really harming anyone else.

thorwyn

There are Mannimacro users out there.

SeaGtGruff

Jeremy wrote: »

But as you say, they are commonly used on this game (I know plenty of people who use them too) and most of them tell me the same thing, that ZoS doesn't care. And considering nothing ever happens to them, well, you know what they say, actions speak louder than words.

I think that might be due to how difficult it is to detect the use of macros, coupled with the possibility of creating problems for non-users of macros due to false positive results from automated macro-detecting logic.

But considering the recent change in the TOS/COC (about a year or so ago) where they said that you agree that they have the right to investigate your social media posts and so forth-- whatever the exact phrasing was-- I'd recommend that anyone who uses macros to help them play ESO should keep mum about it, because bragging or telling other players about it could lead to ZOS taking action if they catch wind of it.

trackdemon5512

Official Response from 2015 on Macros

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1827438/#Comment_1827438

ZOS_MollyHZOS_MollyH
May 2015
Staff Post
Hi @Casdha !

The use of gaming keyboards and mice are not prohibited, but the use of third-party software or other means of creating macros to automate in-game functions is a violation. I apologize for the confusion!

Just to clarify further, part of the Terms of Service document includes an agreement to follow other Supplemental Terms pertaining to Your Service and/or Game, such as a Code of Conduct, provide guidance on behavior that ZeniMax deems to be inappropriate and specify restrictions on Your Account, Your use of the Game, or Your participation in the Services.

There is a paragraph in the Terms of Service agreement that is as follows:

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax

Whether it provides an advantage or not, utilizing macros do fall under this category and are prohibited. Please be sure to let us know if you still have any further questions or concerns!

There’s the concrete answer

zaria

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Macros are not specifically mentioned anywhere in the ToS. The closest they get to being mentioned are in two instances where it states that you cannot use 3rd party software with the game, which is weirdly interpreted when you look at things like Tamriel Trade Center.

Isn't a macro technically 3rd party software? If you have a gamer's mouse that has extra buttons that can be programmed to play back macros, isn't the software that the mouse uses to record, save, and play back the macros 3rd party software?

As for using the Tamriel Trade Center add-on, using an approved add-on shouldn't be considered to be using 3rd party software. And as far as using the Tamriel Trade Center website to look up listings while playing ESO, that's no more cheating than using the UESPWiki website to look up quest information while playing ESO. So I don't understand what you mean by "weirdly interpreted when you look at things like Tamriel Trade Center."

This is correct, however the mouse driver is also software. I set up my naga mouse so side button 6 is R and tilting mouse wheel left is front bar and right is back.

Now this is a bit of an none issue as I see it, tested out macros back before morrowind and yes they help you weave but you can not block cast with them and if you try anything fancy you are stuck in rotation who is not an issue on an dummy but bad then you want to avoid stupid.
Its an tool to make an bad player reach acceptable level and none gone report you for doing 25K dps in dungeons
Now for ganging or bombing in PvP people will report you anyway so you are targeted

Casdha

@trackdemon5512 Its been a while since I've seen this post referenced, cool thanks for the tag.

One thing I will point out, they allowed my emote (slash command) macro file to stay attached to the first post in that thread.

You would think if they had a problem with such a thing they would have removed it.

I think the truth is that they can't give blanket permission for macros but as long as you're not exploiting anything competitive with them they will pretty much leave you alone.

For the record: I've updated that file since then and I still use it to this day (mostly to quickly swap guild chats and the occasional relevant emote gesture or two concerning any situation that my characters may find themselves in).

If they want to ban me for that then........... well as of now this is the only game I spend $200 plus a year on.

furiouslog

VoidCommander wrote: »

Additionally, in the grand scheme of things macros are quite harmless to the player-base at large.

Except for PVP.

Zer0_CooL

Could anyone provide footage of actual macro use? There's so many people presuming use of macros (especially in PvP) while others claim mocros don't even work in ESO. (Myself included)

phaneub17_ESO

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Could anyone provide footage of actual macro use? There's so many people presuming use of macros (especially in PvP) while others claim mocros don't even work in ESO. (Myself included)

It's usually based on time of actions, the human control cannot always precisely hit the same combo of keys with the exact same timing each and every press, there's generally a slight difference of 0.1 or 0.2 seconds even with the greatest of practice or they're spamming the buttons. Macros tend to be very precise with exact same timing every time without any overlap in additional button presses, this is what the internal system looks for when determining whether its a macro or a person pressing buttons.

Zer0_CooL

@phaneub17_ESO

Well thanks for the info about how software detects macros. But thats not really answering the question if they actually work.

ApoAlaia

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

@phaneub17_ESO

Well thanks for the info about how software detects macros. But thats not really answering the question if they actually work.

They do work, I did try it in the past.

Thing is it was too time consuming (for me); when the game itself support macros (ie FFXI) is all seamless but when it comes to setting them up on external software it was a bit like creating cheat sheets for exams: using the time to learn the subject was more time-efficient. Less exciting but more practical.

PigofSteel

Packet modifiers are problem.

Zer0_CooL

@ApoAlaia

Did you try on PC or console? I think on PC you've got more options software wise. On console as far as im concerned, i does not work.

ApoAlaia

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

@ApoAlaia

Did you try on PC or console? I think on PC you've got more options software wise. On console as far as im concerned, i does not work.

PC, using the software that came with my mouse/keyboard (Logitech).

Curious_Death

zaria wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Macros are not specifically mentioned anywhere in the ToS. The closest they get to being mentioned are in two instances where it states that you cannot use 3rd party software with the game, which is weirdly interpreted when you look at things like Tamriel Trade Center.

Isn't a macro technically 3rd party software? If you have a gamer's mouse that has extra buttons that can be programmed to play back macros, isn't the software that the mouse uses to record, save, and play back the macros 3rd party software?

As for using the Tamriel Trade Center add-on, using an approved add-on shouldn't be considered to be using 3rd party software. And as far as using the Tamriel Trade Center website to look up listings while playing ESO, that's no more cheating than using the UESPWiki website to look up quest information while playing ESO. So I don't understand what you mean by "weirdly interpreted when you look at things like Tamriel Trade Center."

This is correct, however the mouse driver is also software. I set up my naga mouse so side button 6 is R and tilting mouse wheel left is front bar and right is back.

Now this is a bit of an none issue as I see it, tested out macros back before morrowind and yes they help you weave but you can not block cast with them and if you try anything fancy you are stuck in rotation who is not an issue on an dummy but bad then you want to avoid stupid.
Its an tool to make an bad player reach acceptable level and none gone report you for doing 25K dps in dungeons
Now for ganging or bombing in PvP people will report you anyway so you are targeted

nice nice... what about gamepads with "turbo"(can repeat dizzy+la perfectly) mode?? why no1 cries on console? i will suprise u guys but... pro gamepads also have MACRO builded in

Zer0_CooL

@Curious_Death

I once tried a macro controler (Nacon PS4) on a dumy. Even with only LA/Skill it didn't work properly. Pretty sure they don't work on console. Might be wrong though.

Curious_Death

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

@Curious_Death

I once tried a macro controler (Nacon PS4) on a dumy. Even with only LA/Skill it didn't work properly. Pretty sure they don't work on console. Might be wrong though.

just turbo two buttons for example = jabs and light attack

JanTanhide

Primidone wrote: »

What’s ZOS’s stance on macro? Plenty of ppl in my high-end PvE guild are using macros to make their rotation perfect. They said ZOS doesn’t care as long as you don’t use third-party softwares. But if you have macros built in your hardware, it’s totally ok. Is this true?

Macro's don't work. Combat is never the same and is fluid in motion. Using a Macro to get through a combat engagement will get your character killed quickly. Anyone telling you Macros work is pulling your leg.

I guess you "could" setup a Macro to do a standard rotation on a Dummy but why would you? It's not a check or test of a combat engagement at all.

This reminds me of a certain streamer who was pulling high DPS on the Trial dummy and of course bragging about it. One day he and three other Streamers got together for Scalecaller Peak in Vet. It was the funniest thing I ever saw. The streamer died over and over and over with his high DPS. Standing in red with all that dps just didn't work.

But to the point: I do think it violates T.O.S. since you are automating the game. I would never do it not just because I think it violates T.O.S. but because it doesn't work.

My two cents.

Ackwalan

There is a clear audio clue when people use a macro, once you hear it, it is very obvious. I don't hear often, but macros are still being used.