Is it wrong to inquire about RLF gender to your in-game friends?

DreamsUnderStars

marshill88 wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

Thankfully the days of "ASL?" every 2 yds were long gone before ESO!

this isn't an ASL thing. I had a female character friend flirt with me. The character is on my friends list, I figured statistically, the odds are high that this is a guy flirting with me. This whole social aspect of MMO's is a little weird to me, to be honest. This isn't an ASL thing that I'm asking. ASL was always creepy. Is asking an in game friend if they are gender-bending a creepy question to ask?

That depends on your motives? Does knowing their gender affect you in some way? Why do you need to know? How are you going to treat the person afterwards? Was your friend possibly roleplaying (in which case it was their character flirting with yours not you the player)?

Your reasons for wanting to know their gender make it creepy or harmless (or anyone else wanting to know someone's gender).

spartaxoxo

Varangian_af_Scaniae wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I, like many women, have created male toons in the past to avoid sexism for being a female gamer. It's not that I identified as a man, it's that I didn't want certain sexist men to identify me as a woman. Now that I'm older I don't care and pretty much exclusively play female toons. But many women and girls, especially younger ones or ones with a lot of RL stress will engage in this practice. And many female gamers have either done this themselves or know of another woman who has done that.

Isn't it strange that that just happens to women? I have played female characters in many online games. Never have I had anyone say anything condescending or sexist to me. Only thing close was one cat trying to roleplay, hitting on my Breton woman. It wasn't sexist it was just weird because I'm not a cat person.:)
But it has happened a few time that people have called me an idiot or Cyka *****. Do I get offended no. Sexism might have happened to you but I believe you are exaggerating and you are safe in your home. As long as you don't give out your home address no one on the Internet can hurt you, what ever they say.

"being a female gamer"
Why would you use that term? Calling yourself a female game just separates you from the group gamers. Is it to make you feel special? Hey I spend many hours a day playing games and I don't call myself a gamer, let alone a male gamer. We are people playing games.

I'm glad you had a positive experience. I have never been murdered and never witnessed a murder. I will never walk up to someone who has and tell that and tell them they are exaggerating. Why? Because my life experiences are my own and in no way invalidates another.

You can choose to believe many women who don't even know each for well over a decade all over the world are exaggerating or lying in a coordinated effort to accomplish something unknown, or you can choose to believe women, like every other type of human being on Earth, have differing experiences. And are entitled to handle those feelings how they see fit, since they were the ones that went through it.

I never stated I was unsafe, I said I didn't want to deal with it. You could have chosen to ask me what I meant by that, but you just decided to assume.

Next time I'd recommend trying basic human decency. It costs nothing.

marshill88

DreamsUnderStars wrote: »

marshill88 wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

Thankfully the days of "ASL?" every 2 yds were long gone before ESO!

this isn't an ASL thing. I had a female character friend flirt with me. The character is on my friends list, I figured statistically, the odds are high that this is a guy flirting with me. This whole social aspect of MMO's is a little weird to me, to be honest. This isn't an ASL thing that I'm asking. ASL was always creepy. Is asking an in game friend if they are gender-bending a creepy question to ask?

That depends on your motives? Does knowing their gender affect you in some way? Why do you need to know? How are you going to treat the person afterwards? Was your friend possibly roleplaying (in which case it was their character flirting with yours not you the player)?

Your reasons for wanting to know their gender make it creepy or harmless (or anyone else wanting to know someone's gender).

my reasons are very simple for me (and just for me). I would not enjoy knowing a man is flirting with me, and would be more prone to enjoy knowing a woman is flirting with me, it really is a simple as that and goes no further. Its about my enjoyment of what is happening in the game and nothing more. I want to enjoy the game, but do so in a way that doesn't violate ethics of what is appropriate and what isn't (i want to respect others).

SilverBride

Let's also not forget that the person being asked can always decline answering if this is something they don't want to share. And that should be respected.

Lugaldu

marshill88 wrote: »

my reasons are very simple for me (and just for me). I would not enjoy knowing a man is flirting with me, and would be more prone to enjoy knowing a woman is flirting with me, it really is a simple as that and goes no further. Its about my enjoyment of what is happening in the game and nothing more. I want to enjoy the game, but do so in a way that doesn't violate ethics of what is appropriate and what isn't (i want to respect others).

Then why not just stick to the imagination that it was just the character who flirted with your character, solely roleplay, when the idea bothers you so much that it could have been a man behind the character?

Alurria

I don't mind people asking my gender, but then comes the age question after that. I have experienced harrassment in a game as a female and also specifically as a older female. I have been stalked in game and in rl by game people. People I thought were friends. Not in ESO mind you. I appreciate that I have played this game for so many years without that kind of abuse. It does happen and it is real, there are creepy people out there.

SilverBride

Alurria wrote: »

I don't mind people asking my gender, but then comes the age question after that.

I've had players ask if I'm really a female, but not once in ESO has anyone asked my age. Although it did happen several times in another MMO, to which I politely (sometimes not so politely if they didn't take no for an answer) declined to answer.

Sevn

ThorianB wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Don't read too much into this.

In real life a person's gender is the first thing you notice when you meet, because in most cases their gender is apparent.

And yes people do approach someone differently based on their gender, just like they approach a child differently than an adult.

It's social norms and has nothing to do with disrespect. Nor is it the least bit unusual that someone would ask, because they have no other way to know.

I have worked with other guys in carpentry most of my adult life. They act A LOT different "around the guys" than they do around their spouses. The things they say at work would make them single if said at home and they egg each other on so it only gets worse the more comfortable they are with each other.

It's sad that many guys act so differently around other guys than they do around women, but this may be another reason why guys are curious. They don't want to say something they KNOW is wrong and offensive in front of the person that might be offended but its totally fine and even coll to say it to the bros. It's sad but true. Many guys don't mature until their 30s and 40s.

Why is it sad though? Like you pointed out, the things guys say to each other are lots of times crude. It's not a stretch to think some of the things guys say to each other, things that immediately roll off our back and we find funny, will offend your average female listener/gamer.

And it's not just "immature guys" who behave differently when they are in the company of the same sex. As a former athlete/vet/coach/counselor it's been many an occasion when I've overheard a room full of women ages 30-60 say things and behave in a way that they certainly wouldn't have displayed in a room with males mixed in. How do I know? Because they were immediately embarrassed when they realized I had overheard their discussion.

While I can't speak for other guys, I'm just trying not to say anything that might be deemed offensive to others first and foremost, and that's a lot easier when I know it's just a bunch of guys busting each other's balls who generally, but not always enjoy ribbing each other. Though I make no objection that I am indeed still immature lol.

RedMuse

SilverBride wrote: »

Don't read too much into this.

In real life a person's gender is the first thing you notice when you meet, because in most cases their gender is apparent.

And yes people do approach someone differently based on their gender, just like they approach a child differently than an adult.

It's social norms and has nothing to do with disrespect. Nor is it the least bit unusual that someone would ask, because they have no other way to know.

No gender is not always obvious. Basing gender assumption on someone's appearance is going to lead to wrong conclusions sooner or later.

Your analogy is incorrect. We treat children differently than adults because they're less developed and have less knowledge and experience. We teach them because we know they don't know much and make allowances for ignorance because we know they haven't had the time or chance to acquire that knowledge. We treat them differently because we know they're not fully developed yet, their bodies and brains are still growing, so we don't expect the same from them as we do from an adult.

So yes, treating a woman differently than a man is disrespectful. Because she's an adult same as he. Since it's a video game and physical strength and endurance won't matter there's not even the fig leaf excuse of physical being stronger to back up such behavior. By saying that women should be treated differently simply because they're women is disrespectful in the extreme and borderline implies that she'd less developed, less knowledgeable, less skilled, simply because she's a woman. And if you can't see the disrespect there then I don't know how to help you.

In fact, this attitude is part of the reason why women don't want others to discover their gender in a game where they, for once, might have the chance to not deal with this bs attitude.

SilverBride

RedMuse wrote: »

No gender is not always obvious. Basing gender assumption on someone's appearance is going to lead to wrong conclusions sooner or later.

Which is why I specifically said "In real life a person's gender is the first thing you notice when you meet, because in most cases their gender is apparent."

RedMuse wrote: »

Your analogy is incorrect. We treat children differently than adults because they're less developed and have less knowledge and experience.

My analogy pointed out that we approach others differently based on our social norms. Their gender, their development level, and many other factors too numerous to list here, are some of the things we take into consideration when interacting with others.

RedMuse wrote: »

By saying that women should be treated differently simply because they're women is disrespectful in the extreme and borderline implies that she'd less developed, less knowledgeable, less skilled, simply because she's a woman.

I never once said women should be treated differently. I said that due to our social norms, the way we approach others is based on many different factors. For example, I, and a few others, have pointed out that males are often more crude when interacting with each other, but would generally be more polite when interacting with females out of a sense of respect. I have no idea how you translated this into claiming women are less developed, knowledgeable or skilled.

It's a matter of social norms and being respectful and polite.

RedMuse

SilverBride wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Sure, but the question is exactly why asking for the assigned sex of another player would be relevant since, as already mentioned several times, it just shouldn't matter.

The question presented by the OP is "Is it wrong to inquire about RLF gender to your in-game friends?" Not is it relevant.

It's not like you asked for their financial status, which would be inappropriate. But gender is the most basic thing about a person. It's perfectly natural to want to know this about someone you are friends with.

If you're actually friends and not just casual acquaintances, you don't have to ask because you should already know. Or you might not be as close to that person as you think you are.

SilverBride

RedMuse wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It's not like you asked for their financial status, which would be inappropriate. But gender is the most basic thing about a person. It's perfectly natural to want to know this about someone you are friends with.

If you're actually friends and not just casual acquaintances, you don't have to ask because you should already know. Or you might not be as close to that person as you think you are.

And how do you know unless they tell you, or you ask?

I became friends with someone in game, and we spent a couple of hours running around doing things together, and chatting. Neither of us mentioned our real life genders. After a couple of hours I said something like "I assume you are a guy, but am not sure. Am I correct?" To which he replied that he was and asked me to verify if I was really female.

It's not often the first thing you say, but until it is said how else would you know? And it had no negative impact on our friendship. We just went right back to hanging out and chatting.

Goregrinder

SilverBride wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The question presented by the OP is "Is it wrong to inquire about RLF gender to your in-game friends?" Not is it relevant.

Ok, so, is it wrong - imho yes, because it's irrelevant. In the game and IRL.

As @Goregrinder pointed out, "It may or may not be relevant depending on the situation." But irrelevant doesn't translate to wrong. It is irrelevant for anyone in game to know what another's pizza preference is but it's not wrong to ask them.

And the OP specifically asked about friends, not just random people you run into in game. It is perfectly natural for most people to want to know who their friends are. In game and real life.

If you feel differently that is your opinion, which you are entitled to, but that doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.

That was mainly my point. If I am going to become friends with anyone, online or offline, it's not unreasonable to want to get to know people. Not just to learn about them for the sake of friendship, but you may also want to know if you're friends with a serial killer or not.

SilverBride

Goregrinder wrote: »

you may also want to know if you're friends with a serial killer or not.

I may want to add that to things to ask new friends.

RedMuse

Whether or not it's inappropriate let me make this clear. If the person receiving the question is a woman there's a significant chance she'll think you're a creep and avoid you in the future, if not outright block you. Ask at your own peril.

RedMuse

SilverBride wrote: »

RedMuse wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It's not like you asked for their financial status, which would be inappropriate. But gender is the most basic thing about a person. It's perfectly natural to want to know this about someone you are friends with.

If you're actually friends and not just casual acquaintances, you don't have to ask because you should already know. Or you might not be as close to that person as you think you are.

And how do you know unless they tell you, or you ask?

I became friends with someone in game, and we spent a couple of hours running around doing things together, and chatting. Neither of us mentioned our real life genders. After a couple of hours I said something like "I assume you are a guy, but am not sure. Am I correct?" To which he replied that he was and asked me to verify if I was really female.

It's not often the first thing you say, but until it is said how else would you know? And it had no negative impact on our friendship. We just went right back to hanging out and chatting.

Because if we're actually friends it has likely already a) come up in casual conversation somehow, b) I've said things that gives you a pretty solid idea of my gender even if I haven't stated it outright, c) you on the whole know enough about me to make a very educated guess on my gender, d) you've heard my voice in voice chat and know how I talk, adding to the other info yeah you'd probably already know my gender and better than if you'd seen me physically.

Would it be a 100%? Maybe not, but it would be as accurate as any assumption you'd make about my gender if you'd seen me in person. Possibly even more so. Do you habitually go around asking people irl what their gender is? Or do you go with your assumptions based on observance?

SilverBride

RedMuse wrote: »

If you're actually friends and not just casual acquaintances, you don't have to ask because you should already know.

SilverBride wrote: »

And how do you know unless they tell you, or you ask?

RedMuse wrote: »

Because if we're actually friends it has likely already a) come up in casual conversation somehow, b)

It did come up in casual conversation... when I asked.

Samadhi

Goregrinder wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Online it's a different story, since you can mask your voice, easily change how you talk or type, and hide what you look like, which is probably more the "what are you?" question comes up a lot more in a game like ESO then if the interaction was at the line at the bank or something.

Sure, but the question is exactly why asking for the assigned sex of another player would be relevant since, as already mentioned several times, it just shouldn't matter.

I don't know, it may or may not be relevant depending on the situation. If another player starts flirting with you whether it is IC or OOC (for those RPers) wouldn't you want to know whether it's a guy or a girl behind that text? I know I would.

Nah, still doesn't matter in my opinion
will never have any sort of intimate relationship with 99% of people in game
playfully having fun with someone need not be prefaced on some distant possibility of a deeper relationship years from then

Samadhi

marshill88 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

I don't know, it may or may not be relevant depending on the situation. If another player starts flirting with you whether it is IC or OOC (for those RPers) wouldn't you want to know whether it's a guy or a girl behind that text? I know I would. But if someone joins the group because they want to PVP or something, I personally wouldn't care what they are, but some might. Different people care about different things.

That is why I asked the question. I don't care about gender at all when I'm playing. I know each character represents another human being, and that human being deserves respect and dignity. But when one of those characters was flirting with me...very obviously (we were throwing pies at other players near the jester area, having a fun time, after a while she took her clothes off and danced in front of me, throwing kisses, etc. obvious flirting). WIth the flirting, I couldn't help but wonder if this is a woman or a man.
.

Why does this change the circumstances?

Lugaldu

Goregrinder wrote: »

That was mainly my point. If I am going to become friends with anyone, online or offline, it's not unreasonable to want to get to know people. Not just to learn about them for the sake of friendship, but you may also want to know if you're friends with a serial killer or not.

If I make friends with someone, it is because of the same interests and sympathy and assigned sex or gender identy does not play any role at all.
And how could I conclude from the information whether someone is a man or a woman or something completely different that it is about a weirdo?

Samadhi

RedMuse wrote: »

Whether or not it's inappropriate let me make this clear. If the person receiving the question is a woman there's a significant chance she'll think you're a creep and avoid you in the future, if not outright block you. Ask at your own peril.

yeah, for real,
mentioned this earlier but will reiterate and clarify
will openly flirt with strangers
but if someone tries to add me with questions like "you're a real girl right??" I will be more inclined to block them than add them back

if someone instead asks "what pronouns do you go by?" the question feels both respectful enough, and not like they are simply trying to get to know me better because they think women are a rarity in this game and that anyone who is a woman is just a chance for them to shoot their shot

Samadhi

marshill88 wrote: »

DreamsUnderStars wrote: »

marshill88 wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

Thankfully the days of "ASL?" every 2 yds were long gone before ESO!

this isn't an ASL thing. I had a female character friend flirt with me. The character is on my friends list, I figured statistically, the odds are high that this is a guy flirting with me. This whole social aspect of MMO's is a little weird to me, to be honest. This isn't an ASL thing that I'm asking. ASL was always creepy. Is asking an in game friend if they are gender-bending a creepy question to ask?

That depends on your motives? Does knowing their gender affect you in some way? Why do you need to know? How are you going to treat the person afterwards? Was your friend possibly roleplaying (in which case it was their character flirting with yours not you the player)?

Your reasons for wanting to know their gender make it creepy or harmless (or anyone else wanting to know someone's gender).

my reasons are very simple for me (and just for me). I would not enjoy knowing a man is flirting with me, and would be more prone to enjoy knowing a woman is flirting with me, it really is a simple as that and goes no further. Its about my enjoyment of what is happening in the game and nothing more. I want to enjoy the game, but do so in a way that doesn't violate ethics of what is appropriate and what isn't (i want to respect others).

the sentiment that you would enjoy the game more or less based on who other players are outside of game is honestly a little strange to consider

SilverBride

Samadhi wrote: »

if someone instead asks "what pronouns do you go by?" the question feels both respectful enough, and not like they are simply trying to get to know me better because they think women are a rarity in this game and that anyone who is a woman is just a chance for them to shoot their shot

I find that assumption very offensive to males who play this game. Not every guy who asks someone's gender is doing it "because they think women are a rarity in this game and that anyone who is a woman is just a chance for them to shoot their shot".

You can't project your misconceptions onto others. You have no idea what anyone is thinking or their motives.

Samadhi

SilverBride wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

if someone instead asks "what pronouns do you go by?" the question feels both respectful enough, and not like they are simply trying to get to know me better because they think women are a rarity in this game and that anyone who is a woman is just a chance for them to shoot their shot

I find that assumption very offensive to males who play this game. Not every guy who asks someone's gender is doing it "because they think women are a rarity in this game and that anyone who is a woman is just a chance for them to shoot their shot".

You can't project your misconceptions onto others. You have no idea what anyone is thinking or their motives.

It's as reasonable as assuming someone's gender and therefor a wealth of other social factors based on their appearance

My statement provided a very clear example of how someone can respectfully ask my gender, and do so in a manner that does not make me feel objectified for my biological sex while they are doing it; this thread is full of people saying they want to treat female gamers different for being a woman behind the keyboard, or that they would feel different about treatment upon finding out a player behind the keyboard is female

even if you or other guys may feel like you are innocently asking me about my being a girl,
there are enough examples of guys who are actually genuine and not creepy about it
for me to pretty safely profile those who do ask in really weird and intrusive terms to be creeps based on their actions, which are more important to me in my interactions with them than their motives for those actions

SilverBride

Samadhi wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

You can't project your misconceptions onto others. You have no idea what anyone is thinking or their motives.

My statement provided a very clear example of how someone can respectfully ask my gender, and do so in a manner that does not make me feel objectified for my biological sex while they are doing it;

Your example is projecting that everyone, especially females, are afraid to state their gender. I would wager to guess that most females wouldn't be immediately offended by that simple question.

And if someone asks what your gender is, there are a few ways you could reply that would respect your stance.

You could say "I would rather not answer." Or "I am biologically _____ but I identify as _____." Or "I don't identify with either gender specifically."

It's the fact that you immediately assume the person has devious intentions that I take offense at.

tsaescishoeshiner

Gummybear803 wrote: »

Pve has always been a mixed bag. Most raid leaders I've met, also with guildmasters, have been male. But there were a few high profile female lead guilds just seemed less likely than your stereotyped rage bound neckbeard shouting about everyone sucking when you wipe. Though the other stereotype of the female getting favored loot from the mentioned raging neckbeard are also sadly common.

Ah, yes. The two genders: rage-bound neckbeard and favored loot queen.

marshill88

Lugaldu wrote: »

Then why not just stick to the imagination that it was just the character who flirted with your character, solely roleplay, when the idea bothers you so much that it could have been a man behind the character?

because i don't want to. does a woman need to be catcalled because it's roleplaying? what if she doesn't like it? Would you tell her she just needs to "stick to the imagination?" I believe in respecting people who have different views than me. A man flirting with me or my character (even a woman character played by a man) is something undesirable to me. It is not enjoyable to me at all. I don't want to be told I need to just "open my mind"...its a yucky thought to me and I won't like it. Now for other people, its no problem and for some it's even fun or great....i support them. I support you. You have equal enjoyment no matter who flirts with you? I support you, my friend. I accept people. I accept the diversity of players and what they like or don't like. My goal is to not offend anyone. My whole reason for asking this question was to know if its tactful to ask gender or not, because if one of my in-game friends is flirting with me, and its not appropriate to ask gender, I'd just cease and desist the activity because I simply don't like the idea of flirting with a guy, under any context, it doesn't appeal to me, and this is no offense to people who do like that, I have no problem with people enjoying what they enjoy when it is not at the expense of someone else.

But anyone in this thread who are implying that if I don't enjoy a male human flirting with me with his female character that I need to change myself is not being very accepting. When you tell someone "you need to like this!" you are really the one coming off as judgmental. Flirting has chemistry overtones, it is very different than just questing. Flirting is something a little different. And a man flirting with me, under any circumstances, is just completely undesirable to me, and guess what? I'm ok in saying that. I don't need to change. I'm not telling anyone what they should like and hopefully likewise.

Flirting happens in this game....humans are humans and we enjoy the "zing" of flirting, and that is a little bit different than simply questing. And when it comes to the "zing" of flirting, no one has a right to tell someone else what they should like or not. Instead, its better to accept the views of others and not project onto them.

Samadhi

SilverBride wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

You can't project your misconceptions onto others. You have no idea what anyone is thinking or their motives.

My statement provided a very clear example of how someone can respectfully ask my gender, and do so in a manner that does not make me feel objectified for my biological sex while they are doing it;

Your example is projecting that everyone, especially females, are afraid to state their gender. I would wager to guess that most females wouldn't be immediately offended by that simple question.

This is you projecting your misconceptions onto me -- my example was the terminology that has been used to address me previously that has not resulted in an immediate block because the guys asking didn't feel like they were about to gush all over me as soon as they made sure it was "safe" to
My statement made no conclusion that it is the best way to ask everyone -- if you ask a bigot about their identity using their terms, they are likely to respond in a bigoted manner and ridicule you for mentioning the words "preferred pronouns"

you just assumed my statement made such, just like you jumped into a "not all guys" narrative in response to a portion of my message that never claimed all guys to act the same to begin with

SilverBride wrote: »

And if someone asks what your gender is, there are a few ways you could reply that would respect your stance.

You could say "I would rather not answer." Or "I am biologically _____ but I identify as _____." Or "I don't identify with either gender specifically."

Or I could block them if they ask in a creepy manner, or I could engage with them in deeper discussion in response to them asking me in a respectful manner

Please do not expect me to answer in your terms because of how you characterize players that exhibit the same actions that have been used to objectify and mistreat me in the past

SilverBride wrote: »

It's the fact that you immediately assume the person has devious intentions that I take offense at.

If someone asks in a devious manner, will take the devious actions as devious

I'm sorry you apparently take offence to treating people in a manner based on their actions rather than their potential feelings

Lugaldu

SilverBride wrote: »

And if someone asks what your gender is, there are a few ways you could reply that would respect your stance.

You could say "I would rather not answer." Or "I am biologically _____ but I identify as _____." Or "I don't identify with either gender specifically."

That would be exactly what maybe not everyone wants to discuss with anyone. Especially not on a more or less random question.

SilverBride

I had a long reply typed out, but I edited. I'm sorry if some players have had negative experiences with this question. But I stand by my opinion that it is not wrong to ask a friend what their gender is.