Is it wrong to inquire about RLF gender to your in-game friends?

marshill88

I'm new to MMO's so I am not speaking from experience. Please don't read into this post anything other than a neutral inquiry as I know gender talk can quickly go off the rails and my motive is to understand proper etiquette (if it exists in this area).
I have read research that 85% of us playing this game are males, and therefore most female characters in the game are males. I see a lot of what I would call 'flirting' in the game, and I wonder, simply as a student of psychology if the human behind the character is doing a percentage of that flirting (i.e. I, the real life person, enjoy the zing of this flirting) or if people flirt in game completely detached from their character (my character is flirting, i'm roleplaying).
Does it matter the reasons? Of course not, it doesn't matter, but do I still wonder? Of course I do, I have curious mind and it is something of an academic fascination for me. How much of our human psychology translates into characters we see online...it is an academic question and scientific research has been put into this.

So because I know that most of the female characters I encounter online are males, is it considered an offensive question to ask them once they are on your friends list? Notice I'm not talking about asking strangers, just those you have friended.

echo2omega

Food for though.

What happens when you treat everyone with the same dignity and respect that you would expect others to show to you?

Gythral

Thankfully the days of "ASL?" every 2 yds were long gone before ESO!

marshill88

Gythral wrote: »

Thankfully the days of "ASL?" every 2 yds were long gone before ESO!

this isn't an ASL thing. I had a female character friend flirt with me. The character is on my friends list, I figured statistically, the odds are high that this is a guy flirting with me. This whole social aspect of MMO's is a little weird to me, to be honest. This isn't an ASL thing that I'm asking. ASL was always creepy. Is asking an in game friend if they are gender-bending a creepy question to ask?

zaria

If you play on voice its very obvious anyway.

Ryuvain

Can't answer fully as I don't really roleplay, but it depends on the person. You have to remember that there's a lot of gender identities that may go into their decision. I know some of that would influence it, but there are true roleplayers who will play any gender too.

Another factor is that it's completely anonymous, so people will feel more free to choose a different gender.

Asking their true gender may make people uncomfortable as they could be straight being asked an awkward question.

Some of that knowledge is from experience.

If asked by anyone I would tell them.

anitajoneb17_ESO

marshill88 wrote: »

I'm new to MMO's so I am not speaking from experience. Please don't read into this post anything other than a neutral inquiry as I know gender talk can quickly go off the rails and my motive is to understand proper etiquette (if it exists in this area).
I have read research that 85% of us playing this game are males, and therefore most female characters in the game are males. I see a lot of what I would call 'flirting' in the game, and I wonder, simply as a student of psychology if the human behind the character is doing a percentage of that flirting (i.e. I, the real life person, enjoy the zing of this flirting) or if people flirt in game completely detached from their character (my character is flirting, i'm roleplaying).
Does it matter the reasons? Of course not, it doesn't matter, but do I still wonder? Of course I do, I have curious mind and it is something of an academic fascination for me. How much of our human psychology translates into characters we see online...it is an academic question and scientific research has been put into this.

So because I know that most of the female characters I encounter online are males, is it considered an offensive question to ask them once they are on your friends list? Notice I'm not talking about asking strangers, just those you have friended.

I'd be careful with figures such as "85%of players are male"...

As to your "etiquette" question, my personal code of conduct goes as follows :
- if the contact is only ingame, via chat, I consider it encounters between characters/avatars, and I assume I'm talking to a person with the same gender as the character. I expect others to do the same and I find it annoying when someone says "thx bro" when I'm obviously playing a girl. It doesn't annoy me if I'm playing a male character. (Real life girl talking here, btw ;-) )
- if the contact is on forums such as here, I ask in a more or less direct way (like "assuming you're a guy, which I in fact am not sure about ;-) )
- if the contact is vocal (Discord, TeamSpeak, etc...) then usually yje question is void because the voice is a pretty strong and reliable indicator.

In any case if you have some sort of real contact with someone, there's always a polite and acceptable way to ask. If there isn't (yet) this sort of contact, I'm afraid there's no solution, because I think you cannot go and ask upfront to anyone éhey, i see you're playing a girl, are you a girl in RL too ?", because it sounds a bit weird ;-)

Bucky_13

I have never asked about the gender of anyone I've played with in the game, I do however know a lot of women who play the game as they've told me. Or I found out in voice chat in on of my guilds. Tbf I consider it pretty irrelevant. I have also on a few occaaipns mentioned to others players that I'm a male since some guys seems to think that a female character is always played by a female and never a male...

Ryuvain

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

marshill88 wrote: »

I'm new to MMO's so I am not speaking from experience. Please don't read into this post anything other than a neutral inquiry as I know gender talk can quickly go off the rails and my motive is to understand proper etiquette (if it exists in this area).
I have read research that 85% of us playing this game are males, and therefore most female characters in the game are males. I see a lot of what I would call 'flirting' in the game, and I wonder, simply as a student of psychology if the human behind the character is doing a percentage of that flirting (i.e. I, the real life person, enjoy the zing of this flirting) or if people flirt in game completely detached from their character (my character is flirting, i'm roleplaying).
Does it matter the reasons? Of course not, it doesn't matter, but do I still wonder? Of course I do, I have curious mind and it is something of an academic fascination for me. How much of our human psychology translates into characters we see online...it is an academic question and scientific research has been put into this.

So because I know that most of the female characters I encounter online are males, is it considered an offensive question to ask them once they are on your friends list? Notice I'm not talking about asking strangers, just those you have friended.

I'd be careful with figures such as "85%of players are male"...

As to your "etiquette" question, my personal code of conduct goes as follows :
- if the contact is only ingame, via chat, I consider it encounters between characters/avatars, and I assume I'm talking to a person with the same gender as the character. I expect others to do the same and I find it annoying when someone says "thx bro" when I'm obviously playing a girl. It doesn't annoy me if I'm playing a male character. (Real life girl talking here, btw ;-) )
- if the contact is on forums such as here, I ask in a more or less direct way (like "assuming you're a guy, which I in fact am not sure about ;-) )
- if the contact is vocal (Discord, TeamSpeak, etc...) then usually yje question is void because the voice is a pretty strong and reliable indicator.

In any case if you have some sort of real contact with someone, there's always a polite and acceptable way to ask. If there isn't (yet) this sort of contact, I'm afraid there's no solution, because I think you cannot go and ask upfront to anyone éhey, i see you're playing a girl, are you a girl in RL too ?", because it sounds a bit weird ;-)

So true, being assumed is irritating.

woe

Good god.

AgaTheGreat

If someone considers that an offensive question, they're completely illprepared to live in a society.

Everstorm

It's not a dating app so it's irrelevant.

Gythral

zaria wrote: »

If you play on voice its very obvious anyway.

Really?
My soundcard has genderbending 'voices' as part of it's software (as well as age chaging) - Some of which arnt that bad!

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

For my closer friends in the game (as close you can get when you are only communicating over the Internet), I know their gender either because they are open about it, which is actually the default in the guilds I'm in, seeing how we usually communicate in voice and people talk like they would in any other situation, giving away RL gender in all sorts of ways, or I know their gender, and often their age as well, because they have entrusted me with that information in confidence.

For everyone else, I really don't care, and I don't see why I would want to ask. I also don't ask for people's real names. Only a handful of my in-game friends have told me that, and I usually don't tell others my real name either, even though I don't exactly try to hide it. (Still sporting the default-ZOS-assigned nick in this forum is one example of me not caring about that.)

However, I do sometimes ask people about their country of residence, because the cultural context that comes with a nationality has a significant impact on many conversations, and their time zone is relevant to when we can play the game together. Also, it's fun to know something about your in-game friends, and in some cases, we have a common language other than English that's easier for either of us, or both, to communicate in.

Kiyakotari

Here's a bigger thought provoker for you:

How many of the male characters are being played by women?

How many of the people playing this game are transgender, or non-binary? Do they play characters that reflect their genetic sex, their physical sex (which may differ from their genetic sex, depending on gender conformation treatments), their gender identity? All of the above? Does it impact you in any way if they do or do not do any of those things?

How many of the people playing this game are intersex? What sex are the characters they play?!

As a student of psychology, I'm sure you're able to recognize that if this is indeed "an academic question" into which "scientific research has been put," this is not in any way the appropriate approach to gather information for "academic" purposes.

jircris11

I identify everyone by their ingame gender. If it bothers them they usually correct me.

Chaos2088

Ryuvain

Kiyakotari wrote: »

Here's a bigger thought provoker for you:

How many of the male characters are being played by women?

How many of the people playing this game are transgender, or non-binary? Do they play characters that reflect their genetic sex, their physical sex (which may differ from their genetic sex, depending on gender conformation treatments), their gender identity? All of the above? Does it impact you in any way if they do or do not do any of those things?

How many of the people playing this game are intersex? What sex are the characters they play?!

As a student of psychology, I'm sure you're able to recognize that if this is indeed "an academic question" into which "scientific research has been put," this is not in any way the appropriate approach to gather information for "academic" purposes.

Yep, definitely a hot topic for quite a few people. I'm fine with talking about it identity myself, but it truly depends on the person.

Grizzbeorn

Whatever "research" you read that said that women only comprise 15% of this player community is complete bunk, and you'd be wise to adjust your thinking.

I tend not to ask about such personal details when I meet someone in-game; it's not relevant to the game, and it's none of my business unless they choose, without prompting, to volunteer the information themselves.

marshill88

Kiyakotari wrote: »

Here's a bigger thought provoker for you:

How many of the male characters are being played by women?

How many of the people playing this game are transgender, or non-binary? Do they play characters that reflect their genetic sex, their physical sex (which may differ from their genetic sex, depending on gender conformation treatments), their gender identity? All of the above? Does it impact you in any way if they do or do not do any of those things?

How many of the people playing this game are intersex? What sex are the characters they play?!

As a student of psychology, I'm sure you're able to recognize that if this is indeed "an academic question" into which "scientific research has been put," this is not in any way the appropriate approach to gather information for "academic" purposes.

It's not my research, I suppose you could look it up and ask the authors. It says that males gender-bend nearly 5 times more than women, so according to this, it is far more rare for females to play male characters. And Given everything you said about different gender identities, it still didn't address the heart of what I wondered....if asking the question of real life gender to your in-game friend is bad etiquette. You do realize that this MMO is pretty binary in regards to gender selection.

You focused on whether something impacts me...these are my in game friends, so obviously I am involved in some way, albeit miniscule. I'm not posing to go around asking strangers. I would gather from the spirit of your reply to me that you took issue with the question itself and would not appreciate someone asking you. That is the feeling I got. My goal is not to offend people, the social aspect of ESO is very different for me, I'm not used to it, and to be honest, it is a little awkward as I have had character flirt with me and I wasn't really sure how to take it.

Lugaldu

In my opinion, it shouldn't matter which assigned sex is behind a character and there is no need to ask about it, because one way or another the interaction or even the possible flirting between the characters stays mainly in the parallel world called Tamriel and the role play aspect is in the foreground. It is of course different if the situation extends to the IRL level, but then one should suspect that it is in the interest of everyone involved to know who you are flirting with. I think a general question simply out of curiosity, with no actual background, is inappropriate, as one cannot be sure whether this question may be uncomfortable for the other person, for example when they are dealing with questions regarding their gender identity.

tsaescishoeshiner

marshill88 wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

Thankfully the days of "ASL?" every 2 yds were long gone before ESO!

this isn't an ASL thing. I had a female character friend flirt with me. The character is on my friends list, I figured statistically, the odds are high that this is a guy flirting with me. This whole social aspect of MMO's is a little weird to me, to be honest. This isn't an ASL thing that I'm asking. ASL was always creepy. Is asking an in game friend if they are gender-bending a creepy question to ask?

If you phrase it like that, yes! Because depending on the context, it could feel like asking someone if they're trying to deceive you. Why would someone's character depict the player's gender by default? Like many people, I play characters of both body types and I don't pay any mind to whether anyone cares about that. It seems like no one cares at all, honestly.

I've had people, usually dudes, just ask "are you a guy lol". Bit brutish, but it gets the job done lol. It's kinda weird to me why it would make a difference to them. But still, I get why they're curious.

It's exceedingly rare for someone to try and pretend to be a different gender in a video game with an ulterior motive worth worrying about. Do THEY even know your gender? Are you expecting they'll assume you're one gender or the other? Why is it that you'd think that?

There's no one answer for how to ask them, because what might sound natural for you could be awkward or rude for another, and vice versa. I'd start by thinking about what it is you're trying to ask and the assumptions behind it.

A very modern, polite way would be to ask what their pronouns are. It's likely to answer your question. I don't ever mind being asked this, but not everyone's used to it yet.

Easy way out: ask them about this topic. For example, ask if they mostly play characters of the same gender as them. Ask if they assume someone they meet is a guy. Worst case scenario it's a bit awkward, but at least it's not improper.

marshill88

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Whatever "research" you read that said that women only comprise 15% of this player community is complete bunk, and you'd be wise to adjust your thinking.

I tend not to ask about such personal details when I meet someone in-game; it's not relevant to the game, and it's none of my business unless they choose, without prompting, to volunteer the information themselves.

you are probably right, I found more research at quanticfoundry that specifically addresses WOW at 23% women so its probably a little higher in ESO I would think. I don't want to post hyperlinks in case its against forum policy, but QuanticFoundry also addresses statistics for nonbinary gamers as well. It's all quite fascinating to me.

lolo_01b16_ESO

I know the gender and real life names (or at least what they want me to believe they are) of most of my friends and guild mates (execluding trade guilds and such), but I don't really remember asking anyone about it. It's just something you'll get to know when you spend time together and the other person isn't activly trying to hide it.

Sarannah

Everstorm wrote: »

It's not a dating app so it's irrelevant.

I have always wondered why there is no ESO-dating app!

But yeah, I don't ask or tell players about gender. Unless ofcourse they mistake me for the wrong gender.

Starlight_Whisper

According to previous Polls eso has way more then 15 percent female players. Last I recall was more around 40. ESO attracts but genders

Larcomar

marshill88 wrote: »

I have read research that 85% of us playing this game are males, and therefore most female characters in the game are males.

Interested what research that is. I think it's certainly true to say that, in the early days of video gaming, mmo'ing it was probably more male dominated; I think things have moved on an awful lot since then.

I suspect as well - though have no evidence - that ESO draws a much wider cross section into it, if only because of the wide variety of modes it enables.

Danikat

Do you have a link to this research you've read? Or at least the name of the study and the authors? I would like to read it but I can't find anything in the searches I've done so far.

I'm especially curious about a) how recent it is (because estimates of the number of female MMO players have changed dramatically over the years, possibly due not only to shifting demographics but also due to more accurate reporting) and b) whether it's specific to ESO or aiming to consolidate data from several MMOs because I've seen data which suggests it does vary by game.

You might find this topic interesting: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381645/irl-gender-vs-toon-gender

It's just an informal forum poll, but it makes two interesting points:

• 34% of respondents identify as female, (and 5% identify as neither male or female) Not quite the 40% I've seen reported elsewhere, but a lot higher than the 15% your study says.
• Just 16% of men say they play female characters (and just 6% of women say they play male characters)

(That poll didn't allow for this option but a lot of us also have more than one character and play both male and female characters.)

But in the specific situation you're concerned about I think the most important thing to bear in mind is that role-playing means a lot more than what you call "gender bending" and just because someone is playing a character which matches their real-life gender does not mean they're not role-playing and everything they say is out of character. Usually role-players are clear on what's being said in character or out of character, but that can be using conventions new players may not be familiar with. Even in ESO I see the old 'double brackets for OOC comments' in use, which dates back to text-based MUDs (Multi-User-Dungeons) which pre-dated MMOs.

Similarly just because someone is playing a character with a different gender to their own doesn't mean they are role-playing. I'm female and my crafter is male, because that's what I thought fit the character I had in mind when I was creating him, but that doesn't mean I'm always role-playing when I'm logged into that character. If I'm talking in guild chat for example it's always as myself because I'm not currently in a role-playing guild so it would just be confusing to talk as my characters (especially since I switch between them frequently and their personalities are very different).

If you're not sure if someone is speaking out of character as themselves or role-playing the best thing to do is ask them that question, rather than trying to guess their intention based on their gender. (Also if someone is flirting with you in-game I think it's worth bearing in mind they know no more about you than you know about them so this is based on your character and how you present them, nothing to do with the real life person behind the computer.)

Gummybear803

Larcomar wrote: »

marshill88 wrote: »

I have read research that 85% of us playing this game are males, and therefore most female characters in the game are males.

Interested what research that is. I think it's certainly true to say that, in the early days of video gaming, mmo'ing it was probably more male dominated; I think things have moved on an awful lot since then.

I suspect as well - though have no evidence - that ESO draws a much wider cross section into it, if only because of the wide variety of modes it enables.

It proably was somewhat accurate research if were talking about 10 or even 15 years ago. Which is one issue with certain sources on the internet being taken for gospel well out of the window they could realistically be correct. If it was a recent study then it's just blatantly wrong or its targeting a specific subsection.

I would argue that a lot of PvP players are in fact Male, both from personal experience and the tournaments, etc. Female teams, let alone female players in general are very rare at the higher competitive levels. Though I'm certain the lower you go in mmr/rating the more females youd encounter.

Roleplay seems to be way more female dominated, when compared to pvp anyway. Most of my friends are female, and all roleplay. The few males I know in this area of play have complained about not having enough male role players to do the types of rp that these women tend to not enjoy.

Pve has always been a mixed bag. Most raid leaders I've met, also with guildmasters, have been male. But there were a few high profile female lead guilds just seemed less likely than your stereotyped rage bound neckbeard shouting about everyone sucking when you wipe. Though the other stereotype of the female getting favored loot from the mentioned raging neckbeard are also sadly common.

spartaxoxo

The last one I saw put female MMO players between 30-40%, and that feels about right for this game with maybe a bit higher participation. Also, as a lot of women create male characters specifically so they cannot be identified as females, I would not take expect a poll about that to accurately reflect females playing males.

Anyway I wouldn't bother to ask unless it comes up organically. I tend to refer to people by their avatar unless I'm told otherwise

marshill88

Hello Danikat. The statistics are on QuanticFoundry, you can search for the article "Beyond 50/50: Breaking Down The Percentage of Female Gamers by Genre"