Hidden 30- second cooldown on swapping CP's

Inaya

I can see the new stuff in the green tree as slottable (fishing stars, homemaker, etc) but the crafting, harvesting, treasure hunter etc should remain passive. Change is good, new stuff is good - taking things that used to be passive and making them "slottable" is bad.

Halcyon_Kismet

I would like to say that the green tree quality of life CP perks are a step in the right direction that give some much needed love to activities like thieving and fishing.

However, it seems that many stars were made into equipable perks instead of passive just for the sake of creating the illusion of choice. At an early time in the PTS, many of the stars in the green tree were passive and then were changed into equipable about halfway through through. As many (including myself) have stated, the green tree just makes more sense as passive perks. It doesn't really make much sense from any angle for our character to invest the CP and forget how to fish better unless we go in and swap the perk out on the bar.

To summarize, the equipable combat perks system makes sense and makes our choices meaningful and prevents super high CP from reaching astounding levels of damage. For non-combat, the entire green tree should be passive as it is more fluid and makes more sense.

CyberOnEso

Whilst I obviously disagree with this change. And would much prefer that the Green CP stars are passive I have updated Jack of all Trades to obey this new cooldown and to queue up stars to be slotted when the cooldown ends.

If you are interested you can download it from ESOUI or Minion

This also removes the annoying messages 'One of more champion points could not be slotted' and simply tells you in chat that you are on cooldown and how long the cooldown will last. It won't annoy you with error sounds or top-right notifications.

This version, therefore, is a significantly nerfed version of what Jack of all Trades could have been but still provides many benefits.
It will slot gathering stars when you harvest, fishing nodes when you go fishing, Meticulous Disassembly when you start crafting, and many more- including 'Rationer' which was added recently due to a suggestion. It will slot these in slots 3 and 4 of your Champion Bar and will not touch slot 1 or 2, I recommend you use those slots for stars like 'Steed's Blessing' or 'Gifted Rider'.

To the people who are on console, I can only apologize. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. If I could make the addon work on consoles I would love to.

To ZOS I have no desire to try to get around whatever restrictions you impose. It's your game and you can do whatever you like with it. However, you have chosen to provide players with the API (Which I personally think is an amazing tool).
I only intend to use it for its intended purposes. I personally have seen no evidence that either version of Jack of all Trades would cause server performance issues.

kringled_1

Needing two slottables (master gatherer and plentiful harvest) to optimize a single player action (gathering a node) is where the current tree setup really breaks down for me. When I redo some set ups later this week, I'm going to pull back my points in professional upkeep because I don't want to even think about juggling 6 slottables. The problem for me is that deconstruction is such a frequent short thing (between dungeons, lobby of trial), chests are also something I encounter in all modes of game play, movement is always nice, and even when I'm not picking up surveys or farming in particular, picking up nodes in the meantime is also common across most characters. (whether questing, waiting for people to be ready for the next dungeon, waiting for lead to reset the trial, etc).

Salvas_Aren

the cooldown affects swapping by hand as well. see? i dont know what im talking about

KMarble

VaranisArano wrote: »

Also, is anyone else having issues with Infamous not working alongside the Haggling Passives from Thieves Guild? Because neither the value of my goods to be fenced nor laundered goods was increased. Am I missing something here?

Farming: swap out Infamous in favor of Treasure Hunter and I'm all good to go on a farming run with a final set of: Steed's Blessing, Plentiful Harvest, Master Gatherer, and Treasure Hunter.


Feedback time.

Cooldown feedback: I wasn't seeing it when I manually swapped my slottables. Which is a good thing!

Menu Management: I'm on PC and this sucks. Every time I swap a single slottable, I have to:
1. Hit the "=" sign to go to the Champion menu
2. Click on the Thief Craft tree
3. Mouse over the stars until I find the one I want (was it too hard to label them, seriously?)
4. Click and drag that star up to the Champion Bar
5. Either Esc or Alt twice to back out of the Champion menu
6. Finally get one with my next activity.

I did this 5-step process at least four times in the course of what used to be my fluid morning gameplay just to use the Slottables that presumably you expect I should want to use. I'll probably get faster as time goes on, but its still a pain.

Devs, that's a pain in the rear. I really, really hope that it makes a significant improvement on the performance side, because it's a significant decrease in quality of life for me with a mouse and keyboard.


Bottom line: No, I can't have my usual fluid gameplay AND use your new CP slottables. Either I have to "set and forget" my four farming ones or I have to stop what I'm doing, dive into the Champion menu, and swap my slottable before doing what I want with the slottable that benefits it.

Devs, was this what you intended to happen?

Re: Infamous - I can't tell you about white items as I trash them, but with the TG passive and infamous slotted I get 135 gold/green item. Sorry, I don't remember how much the blues sell for and I haven't gotten a purple yet.

Inaya wrote: »

I can see the new stuff in the green tree as slottable (fishing stars, homemaker, etc) but the crafting, harvesting, treasure hunter etc should remain passive. Change is good, new stuff is good - taking things that used to be passive and making them "slottable" is bad.

I tend to agree with you. I don't want the slottable mechanic gone, I just want a faster way to do it. As Varanis mentioned, we have to click on buttons 5 times (at least. I caught myself in front of a craft station double-checking the stars I'd slotted more than once).

I've wondering if I want the stars you mentioned as passives because I got used to that or because it's what makes more sense. I'm not sure if I want those as passives just because I'm so used to them being that way.

What I do know is that the system, the way it is right now, is clunky and time consuming. Independent of any changes the devs might or might not do to which stars become passive, I want a better way to check and change the stars.

Edit: someone up thread asked about other slottable stars and if they were working as intended (sorry, I'm paraphrasing). I haven't unlocked them all due to lack of enough CP points, but the ones I tried did work. I got double furnishing plans (green, although someone I know said they got 2 purples yesterday), got better loot from nodes and containers too.

VaranisArano

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

the cooldown affects swapping by hand as well. see?

Maybe? I didn't see the cooldown when I swapped my stars manually. I tried swapping Professional Upkeep and Infamous pretty quickly both in the Champion screen and after backing out/going back in and didn't get a cooldown. I dunno.

VaranisArano

KMarble wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Also, is anyone else having issues with Infamous not working alongside the Haggling Passives from Thieves Guild? Because neither the value of my goods to be fenced nor laundered goods was increased. Am I missing something here?

Farming: swap out Infamous in favor of Treasure Hunter and I'm all good to go on a farming run with a final set of: Steed's Blessing, Plentiful Harvest, Master Gatherer, and Treasure Hunter.


Feedback time.

Cooldown feedback: I wasn't seeing it when I manually swapped my slottables. Which is a good thing!

Menu Management: I'm on PC and this sucks. Every time I swap a single slottable, I have to:
1. Hit the "=" sign to go to the Champion menu
2. Click on the Thief Craft tree
3. Mouse over the stars until I find the one I want (was it too hard to label them, seriously?)
4. Click and drag that star up to the Champion Bar
5. Either Esc or Alt twice to back out of the Champion menu
6. Finally get one with my next activity.

I did this 5-step process at least four times in the course of what used to be my fluid morning gameplay just to use the Slottables that presumably you expect I should want to use. I'll probably get faster as time goes on, but its still a pain.

Devs, that's a pain in the rear. I really, really hope that it makes a significant improvement on the performance side, because it's a significant decrease in quality of life for me with a mouse and keyboard.


Bottom line: No, I can't have my usual fluid gameplay AND use your new CP slottables. Either I have to "set and forget" my four farming ones or I have to stop what I'm doing, dive into the Champion menu, and swap my slottable before doing what I want with the slottable that benefits it.

Devs, was this what you intended to happen?

Re: Infamous - I can't tell you about white items as I trash them, but with the TG passive and infamous slotted I get 135 gold/green item. Sorry, I don't remember how much the blues sell for and I haven't gotten a purple yet.

Inaya wrote: »

I can see the new stuff in the green tree as slottable (fishing stars, homemaker, etc) but the crafting, harvesting, treasure hunter etc should remain passive. Change is good, new stuff is good - taking things that used to be passive and making them "slottable" is bad.

I tend to agree with you. I don't want the slottable mechanic gone, I just want a faster way to do it. As Varanis mentioned, we have to click on buttons 5 times (at least. I caught myself in front of a craft station double-checking the stars I'd slotted more than once).

I've wondering if I want the stars you mentioned as passives because I got used to that or because it's what makes more sense. I'm not sure if I want those as passives just because I'm so used to them being that way.

What I do know is that the system, the way it is right now, is clunky and time consuming. Independent of any changes the devs might or might not do to which stars become passive, I want a better way to check and change the stars.

Hey, thanks for checking! I was getting 110 gold for a green item as if Haggling was the only one working.

I'll have to steal some more later and doublecheck.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

We have recently had to remove a handful of baiting and bashing comments from this thread. Feedback is a very important function of our forums, but we do ask that all feedback remains civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

Sylvermynx

VaranisArano wrote: »

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

the cooldown affects swapping by hand as well. see?

Maybe? I didn't see the cooldown when I swapped my stars manually. I tried swapping Professional Upkeep and Infamous pretty quickly both in the Champion screen and after backing out/going back in and didn't get a cooldown. I dunno.

I'm not seeing it when swapping manually either. They change up as quickly as you can drag and slot.

AlextheMuspel

CyberOnEso wrote: »

Whilst I obviously disagree with this change. And would much prefer that the Green CP stars are passive I have updated Jack of all Trades to obey this new cooldown and to queue up stars to be slotted when the cooldown ends.

If you are interested you can download it from ESOUI or Minion

This also removes the annoying messages 'One of more champion points could not be slotted' and simply tells you in chat that you are on cooldown and how long the cooldown will last. It won't annoy you with error sounds or top-right notifications.

This version, therefore, is a significantly nerfed version of what Jack of all Trades could have been but still provides many benefits.
It will slot gathering stars when you harvest, fishing nodes when you go fishing, Meticulous Disassembly when you start crafting, and many more- including 'Rationer' which was added recently due to a suggestion. It will slot these in slots 3 and 4 of your Champion Bar and will not touch slot 1 or 2, I recommend you use those slots for stars like 'Steed's Blessing' or 'Gifted Rider'.

To the people who are on console, I can only apologize. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. If I could make the addon work on consoles I would love to.

To ZOS I have no desire to try to get around whatever restrictions you impose. It's your game and you can do whatever you like with it. However, you have chosen to provide players with the API (Which I personally think is an amazing tool).
I only intend to use it for its intended purposes. I personally have seen no evidence that either version of Jack of all Trades would cause server performance issues.

It’s NOT their game! Technically they can do whatever they want with this game, but that’s only the case bc there’re no regulations with regard to softwares like this. I would be more than glad to see some governmental regulations ensuring the quality of service they must provide.

You, as a customer, should feel entitled to deserve high-quality service. If some feature is objectively obstructive to the enjoyability of the product, you OUGHT to point that out and confront them. It’s your RESPONSIBILITY, for both yourself and other customers.

deleted221106-002999

I've noticed the cool-down annoyingly get in the way a few times. The worst is slotting 1, hitting confirm (which starts the timer) and then recalling you need another and trying then being forced to wait before you can slot any other required one.

Ditto on the mutli-clicks to interact with anything - it's an absolute mess of a gui design unless the purpose of making it so damned slow, awkward and obfuscatory was to further slow down or otherwise inhibit player activity?

@VaranisArano the skills & star stacking works but 'confirm and wait' seems to be the thing; maybe the cooldown applies post-change, too? The context I've seen used in this respect was having the thieves guild passives in place, slotting the star(with confirm) then waiting through a thieves den load screen to interact with a fence - total time was well over 30s between slotting the star, confirming and using it.

I think, even if the knee-jerk cool-down has to exist it should be reduced to match human reaction times; it wasn't there prior to @CyberOnEso very useful and helpful add-on so should at least be lowered to human timing. It's more than slow and clunky enough as is.

virtus753

Back to add that:

1) Yes, it definitely affects manual swapping. I ran into this trying to respec different trees multiple times on one toon way too much last night. Cooldowns are adding anger to frustration for me when trying to play around with CP setups. Wasn’t the point of this mini-event to encourage experimentation? Hence the free respecs? Instead I’m hearing a ton of that annoying fail noise and getting a lot of the “can’t slot” error messages. Why is there no actual timer if we have a cooldown? We’re just going to sit here spamming the command at our best guess of the timing to see if the hidden cooldown is up yet and get more frustrated each time it fails.

2) I’m seeing a LOT of guildies asking what they’ve done wrong or thinking they somehow broke their CP when things don’t get slotted and they get this useless error message that “one or more CP can’t be slotted.” Why would you put so unclear a message in game that it causes players to wonder what they’ve messed up when the answer is that the game has a cooldown that is never mentioned or shown? It’s similar to when the server boots people for “spamming” and suggests they stop posting in chat even if they haven’t posted anything in chat in ages. That’s not how the server’s usually using the word spam, and it’s worse than unhelpful to imply it’s the player’s fault when it isn’t, or at least risk them thinking that. If you must have this cooldown, please change the message to something remotely helpful, like “Please try again in 30 seconds.” That would at least clue people in that it’s a matter of timing, not of them doing anything wrong or having broken anything.

Phaedryn

Hell, that addon shold have simply been labeled an exploit and banned outright for sidestepping an intentional mechanic of the game.

VaranisArano

Phaedryn wrote: »

Hell, that addon shold have simply been labeled an exploit and banned outright for sidestepping an intentional mechanic of the game.

You posted this in the other thread, and I'm still confused about what mechanics you think were bypassed.

We're allowed to swap between all the slottable stars we own, which is all this addon does.

Fennwitty

I get the cooldown multiple times by hand also. Usually when setting up a character the first time (see: Every single character ), primarily confirming after slotting a star to ensure it 'sticks' and then looking for the other active ones available.

If it was easier to find stars by them having actual labels without an addon required, I wouldn't feel the need to 'lock in' choices as frequently.

Jaraal

VaranisArano wrote: »

Devs, was this what you intended to happen?

I don't think they realized that players would be reslotting CP at the frequency they are forced to do now just to get what used to be passive harvesting / treasure buffs. I do believe it was planned for people to "waste" CP having to get past the crafting inspiration chokepoint, because surely they are aware that inspiration is redundant for most players, who are max crafters already.

Varana

VaranisArano wrote: »

Hey, thanks for checking! I was getting 110 gold for a green item as if Haggling was the only one working.

I'll have to steal some more later and doublecheck.

Also concerning re:manual cooldown:
It exists, but it is really stealthy, easy to miss, and very obviously a last-minute implementation that only went through very basic functionality testing - if any.

You not only have to slot the new stars, you also have to Confirm before leaving the screen. I missed that more than once when manually re-slotting. And with the "Jack of all Trades" addon active, you won't really notice that you didn't change CP because of the cooldown (or simply forgetting to press the button).

You can draw stars to your bar as often as you like. If you Confirm before 30 seconds are over, you will get a notification in the upper right corner, and your new setup will be cancelled. Of course, the game never bothers to actually tell you why your pressing of the Confirm button didn't actually apply the new settings, because that would be the normal thing to do, and this is ZOS.

This is, simply, all very terrible design, and a disgrace for whoever thought of this nonsense.

---
Edit: Addon was updated.

If "Jack of all Trades" is activated, the game won't really tell you in the CP screen that you didn't commit your setup. If you Confirm earlier than 30 seconds after the last one, no sound effect will play, and the Confirm button will remain on screen. That's it - the game won't tell you here that your new loadout was not applied. ONly upon leaving the CP menu will you get a notification in the upper right corner.
The evil thing is: If you see that notification and re-enter the CP menu, your new CP setup will still be slotted (the game is waiting for you to Confirm).
That means that with the addon active, it is very likely that your CP menu can show you a loadout that is not actually active.

Edit history:
1 - Checked without the addon loaded, and there is a significant difference in behaviour. Will reload a few more times...
2 - Re-checked the different behaviour, checked that the latest version of JoaT was used.
3 - Spoilered the addon part because it was updated. Thanks again to CyberonEso!

virtus753

Jaraal wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Devs, was this what you intended to happen?

I don't think they realized that players would be reslotting CP at the frequency they are forced to do now just to get what used to be passive harvesting / treasure buffs. I do believe it was planned for people to "waste" CP having to get past the crafting inspiration chokepoint, because surely they are aware that inspiration is redundant for most players, who are max crafters already.

I was stuck on that point for a while, but then I decided to do Wanderer and Steadfast Enchantment. 10 points more, but at least those do *something*, however minimal their benefits.

DYSEQTA

Varana wrote: »

This is, simply, all very terrible design, and a disgrace for whoever thought of this nonsense.

That's it pretty much in a nut shell. It almost seems to be so absolutely obvious that it is bad that I am to the point of believing that it must actually be deliberate. If that is the case then ZOS is literally trying to make player experience painful and I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Normally when I see behavior like this from the developer of an MMO I immediately assume there must be some drug-pushing-style cash shop business skullduggery planned to go with it. So far I can't identify anything obvious of that nature though. So what is the motivation?

Gythral

Getting heatliy sick of this 30s before I can change activity cooldown!!!

Almost all were passives under Cp1 & should be reutrn to passives under CP2 & money spent on fixing the SERVER issues!
I suggest a target date of March 15th for this to be fixed!

CyberOnEso

Varana wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Hey, thanks for checking! I was getting 110 gold for a green item as if Haggling was the only one working.

I'll have to steal some more later and doublecheck.

Edit: Important notice - the next part only applies when the addon is active. @CyberOnEso

If "Jack of all Trades" is activated, the game won't really tell you in the CP screen that you didn't commit your setup. If you Confirm earlier than 30 seconds after the last one, no sound effect will play, and the Confirm button will remain on screen. That's it - the game won't tell you here that your new loadout was not applied. ONly upon leaving the CP menu will you get a notification in the upper right corner.
The evil thing is: If you see that notification and re-enter the CP menu, your new CP setup will still be slotted (the game is waiting for you to Confirm).
That means that with the addon active, it is very likely that your CP menu can show you a loadout that is not actually active.

Edit history:
1 - Checked without the addon loaded, and there is a significant difference in behaviour. Will reload a few more times...
2 - Re-checked the different behaviour, checked that the latest version of JoaT was used.

If Jack of all Trades is active it will actually post in chat that you didn't commit your CP, with an accurate timer telling you how long is left on your cooldown. I believed this was a better implementation than what ZOS introduced. However, I appreciate that not having the error sound is an issue. I can easily add the error sound and notification back, or at least add that as a toggleable feature.

It is worth noting that if you are on cooldown the 'R confirm' button at the bottom of the CP menu will not disappear when pressing R then E.

Edit: I have just posted an update that adds a toggleable (by default on) to show ZOS's alert text and sound when you attempt to change your CP whilst on cooldown.

zaria

Inaya wrote: »

I can see the new stuff in the green tree as slottable (fishing stars, homemaker, etc) but the crafting, harvesting, treasure hunter etc should remain passive. Change is good, new stuff is good - taking things that used to be passive and making them "slottable" is bad.

This, opening chests, harvesting nodes and deconstructing stuff is something you do during normal play as I see it.
Fishing or thieving is an activity you choose to do, granted you might fish wile waiting or steal stuff in an house with nobody around in a quest

Muirwen

AlexWaff wrote: »

Anyway, I'll keep an eye on this and will only regret I pre-ordered the expansion when I'm never playing it.
Thank god I didn't dump for 14k crowns to get an estate yet, I was pretty close, but not anymore.

If the ridiculous issue with the Craft constellation gets resolves, I'd be glad, but it really won't change the fact ZoS has been absolutely horrible in communicating. Not once has this and other similar issues been acknowledged, for the entire PTS cylce and on release. Now it keeps getting ignored completely, while actively and blatantly working against any community effort to circumvent it. They won't come outright and say "we will not be allowing any addon that automates this aspect, because we intend it to be experienced in this way", instead choosing to ignore the discontent and play it off as if they didn't see, I guess.

Obligatory doomer "haha don't worry in a month's time they'll sell craft tree automation on the crown store" joke.

On the same boat as you: regretting to have pre-ordered something I won't be playing. On the upside I have now made available some funds to spend on other games by having cancelled my ESO+

virtus753

Gythral wrote: »

I suggest a target date of March 15th for this to be fixed!

Sounds like something Brutus and Cassius might say...

I’d beware it, though. Not sure I want ZOS to try anything on that particular date.

Hurbster

I don't think too much was thought was placed into how the green tree works.

Gythral

Hurbster wrote: »

I don't think too much was thought was placed into how the green tree works.

too much ???

VaranisArano

I finally managed to get hit with the cooldown while swapping from treasure hunter to Infamous as I when to fence my items. I was trying to make sure I had Infamous equipped so I confirmed, then tried to swap things around, and yeah...the cooldown is annoying even when manually swapping stars around.

All I can say is that cooldown better be doing great things for you on the performance end, ZOS. On my end, it sucks!


Side note: this time Infamous worked as intended! I got the increased fencing value. I'll just assume I managed to screw it up last time.

Sylvermynx

I wonder if the cooldown is more obvious to those with larger amounts of CP - as they'd probably have more options for stars to swap, and perhaps (unlike me) do lots more of the in-game things that are slottable. I don't do any of the Justice System stuff for instance, and right now, I don't even have enough CP on anyone to get the Meticulous Disassembly star. I don't want the fast mount stars because I just don't use mounts much.

Eventually I will get the fishing stars on whoever I decide to use for more master fishermen. At that point I'll probably run into it.

karthrag_inak

This is really -really- antagonizing and obnoxious. At the very least, put a -bar- up that counts down until the item can be slotted.