Hidden 30- second cooldown on swapping CP's

VaranisArano

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

Can't change CP in combat anyway. It was always an out of combat thing.

Huh, ok. Then I'm really confused as to why 15 seconds would be too long.

Because I don't want to wait 15 seconds before I can slot the CP star I want?

Step 1: walk up to a vendor
Step 2: slot Professional Upkeep, which impacts armor repair
Step 3: repair armor
Step 4: wait 15 seconds?
Step 5: slot the star for whatever activity I'm doing next

Apparently, reducing the cost of repairing my armor needed a 15 second cooldown before I can slot the star for pickpocketing, or gathering, or anything else.

QuebraRegra

Fennwitty wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

They probably did specifically because they wanted to keep the pain point.... they have said repeatedly they want our choices to have consequences, well if there is an adson that can ninja swap your cp, your choices have fewer consequences.....

The primary 'consequence' here is players getting annoyed at Zeni's poor implementation of the Craft tree.

..and canceling ESO+ and shelving the game for a while.

perhaps ZOS can get woke, only time will tell?

ZOS_GinaBruno

Hey everyone, the cooldown was added to alleviate some performance concerns on both the server and database. As this was something that changed a system new with PTS, we didn't call it out in the Live launch notes.

Gythral

Walk up to Vendor
Addon repairs gear/weapons
Addon sells junk
I sell what I dont want ot guildtrade/dismantle/store

elapsed time 3 secs (tops) until I get involved

& with this patch its ???

BlueRaven

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the cooldown was added to alleviate some performance concerns on both the server and database. As this was something that changed a system new with PTS, we didn't call it out in the Live launch notes.

The green tree needs a second look and quickly. The addon was created because of the high level of micromanagement the new system introduces, just doing rather mundane things.

VaranisArano

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the cooldown was added to alleviate some performance concerns on both the server and database. As this was something that changed a system new with PTS, we didn't call it out in the Live launch notes.

Thank you for clarifying. I'm saddened to know that my apparently fluid gameplay of being able to walk up to a merchant, repair my armor, then immediately turn around and start pickpocketing or harvesting crafting mats was in fact causing performance issues for the server/database.

Unfortunately, both the slottable stars and this cooldown has the effect of making my gameplay considerable less fluid and immersive. Non-combat activities I used to be able to do without thinking about it are now a mini game of slotting and unslotting the appropriate active stars.

I hope that the Devs take the time to evaluate how they can adjust the current CP system to provide more fluid gameplay, especially for Console players who don't have addons.

virtus753

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the cooldown was added to alleviate some performance concerns on both the server and database. As this was something that changed a system new with PTS, we didn't call it out in the Live launch notes.

Thank you for the notice. Please alleviate performance concerns by reducing the need for so much active node switching.

You’re happier; players are happier. Win win.

Kiralyn2000

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

Can't change CP in combat anyway. It was always an out of combat thing.

Huh, ok. Then I'm really confused as to why 15 seconds would be too long.

Because I don't want to wait 15 seconds before I can slot the CP star I want?

Step 1: walk up to a vendor
Step 2: slot Professional Upkeep, which impacts armor repair
Step 3: repair armor
Step 4: wait 15 seconds?
Step 5: slot the star for whatever activity I'm doing next

Apparently, reducing the cost of repairing my armor needed a 15 second cooldown before I can slot the star for pickpocketing, or gathering, or anything else.

Hmm, ok.

I'd looked at the armor one, and decided to skip it because it didn't seem worth the points (I don't have near enough to fill in everything.)

Guess it's just a different POV thing. I just don't picture swapping things out for little activities like that.


That said - yeah, not sure why the green tree has that many equippable skills. Most of them seem like they should be passives.
I suppose it's just because 1) they wanted it to match the other two trees, and 2) there weren't enough that really fit the "equip this for a bonus" mold, so they applied it to things that should be passives. (i.e, they pounded the round peg into the square hole, because the other two trees were square pegs.)

VaranisArano

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

Can't change CP in combat anyway. It was always an out of combat thing.

Huh, ok. Then I'm really confused as to why 15 seconds would be too long.

Because I don't want to wait 15 seconds before I can slot the CP star I want?

Step 1: walk up to a vendor
Step 2: slot Professional Upkeep, which impacts armor repair
Step 3: repair armor
Step 4: wait 15 seconds?
Step 5: slot the star for whatever activity I'm doing next

Apparently, reducing the cost of repairing my armor needed a 15 second cooldown before I can slot the star for pickpocketing, or gathering, or anything else.

Hmm, ok.

I'd looked at the armor one, and decided to skip it because it didn't seem worth the points (I don't have near enough to fill in everything.)

Guess it's just a different POV thing. I just don't picture swapping things out for little activities like that.


That said - yeah, not sure why the green tree has that many equippable skills. Most of them seem like they should be passives.
I suppose it's just because 1) they wanted it to match the other two trees, and 2) there weren't enough that really fit the "equip this for a bonus" mold, so they applied it to things that should be passives. (i.e, they pounded the round peg into the square hole, because the other two trees were square pegs.)

For perspective, I used to be able to log into Belkarth with my Silencer, do her writs, repair her armor, sell junk to a vendor, pick a few pockets, maybe murder a few people, fence the loot, and then head out for the morning coffee&farming run around Craglorn for looting chests and hoping for nirncrux without ever having to slot or unslot anything.

So it's a little annoying that now I either have to commit to slot/unslot things or I have to give up the benefits of those CP.

CyberOnEso

After looking into it a bit more it seems to cooldown is 30 seconds, not 15. Which just makes the problem worse.

I don't necessarily believe the point on server performance, it has exactly the same performance hit as slotting skills. Which is not capped in the slightest. Also, you cannot change CP during combat.

Aside from the addon as I have been playing in my normal gameplay today I have encountered this cooldown many times. There are definitely situations outside of my addons where you would want to change which CP's you have slotted more often than once every 30 seconds.

prof_doom

Gythral wrote: »

Whole Green tree should be passives

All might be a bit far, but there's definitely way too many "active" CP nodes in the green tree.

Pink_Pixie

We mentioned it months ago that the green tree is a micromanagement hell, it should of been all passives that is not combat related. But nope, it got ignored and implemented, with a stealth cool down. The irony is people actually defend these decisions, and it's been shown that player input is ignored.

Great job with the add on!

Poor job to Zos for finding yet another reason to make players like myself unhappy.

Sambucca1973

Have to chime in with the rest. Many of the green tree skills should be passive. And the 30-second nerf? Not buying that rationale. And the idea that decisions should have consequence? Perfectly acceptable - in in-game dialogue where we make active choices. Perfectly unacceptable when we routinely (several times a day) need to remember to swap skills to get the benefit. Can you imagine making people do that in the middle of a trial/dungeon (yes, you can't - I know, still just imagine).

On my main character, I'm fighting, harvesting, deconning, and creating stuff usually several times a day (playing about 4 hours).

The decision re the crafting skill tree should be looked at again. As implemented, it's decreased the QOL aspect of the game. Just one example: why the heck should anyone have to put CP into faster farming animation? Really. Who/what purpose does that even serve?

I appreciate a lot of the things that Zenimax does. It's a great game, we get some great new stuff regularly, and the team seems responsive to community feedback.

So, Zenimax, I hope you'll reassess the green skill tree and at least making some of the skills passive. To at least improve QOL for players who don't just focus on one aspect of the game.

AlexWaff

Anyway, I'll keep an eye on this and will only regret I pre-ordered the expansion when I'm never playing it.
Thank god I didn't dump for 14k crowns to get an estate yet, I was pretty close, but not anymore.

If the ridiculous issue with the Craft constellation gets resolves, I'd be glad, but it really won't change the fact ZoS has been absolutely horrible in communicating. Not once has this and other similar issues been acknowledged, for the entire PTS cylce and on release. Now it keeps getting ignored completely, while actively and blatantly working against any community effort to circumvent it. They won't come outright and say "we will not be allowing any addon that automates this aspect, because we intend it to be experienced in this way", instead choosing to ignore the discontent and play it off as if they didn't see, I guess.

Obligatory doomer "haha don't worry in a month's time they'll sell craft tree automation on the crown store" joke.

AlexWaff

If they want heavy choices, force players to choose a role.
Will this character be a tank, dps, healer, or crafter?
You pick one, and you can NEVER change it again - permanent. all non-role skills disappear.
Want something else? Make another character, and remember to buy the skill lines and skyshards you need from the crown store.

Having to constantly stop what I'm doing, switch around skills and wait a while isn't a choice, it's a pain nobody will bother with. Unless those are permanent, or require a major sacrifice to alter.

merpins

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the cooldown was added to alleviate some performance concerns on both the server and database. As this was something that changed a system new with PTS, we didn't call it out in the Live launch notes.

Question: Is it the act of constantly swapping green passives for other green passives and back again the cause of performance issues? Because if that's the cause, wouldn't a good solution be making the green tree passive instead, or at least all the skills that have no combat value passive (I saw 1 or 2 that can be used in combat, but don't necessarily make you stronger). There was an explantation where the system checks your CP abilities, so having less for it to check makes the server strain less, but there is a fundamental problem with that: the list of things to check is long for combat, but not long for things like fishing or opening a chest.

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rpa

Of all things to be nerfed they decided to nerf quality of life. Or more likely someone did not think implications of their design throughly, spent lots of time, work and resources implementing it and now has a partial lemon as result. Too bad.

Tyreal1974

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the cooldown was added to alleviate some performance concerns on both the server and database. As this was something that changed a system new with PTS, we didn't call it out in the Live launch notes.

Performance concerns? Any test results or data to prove/disprove these concerns or was this just another guess? IMO requiring the gathering skills from the CP green tree to be slotted instead of passively available is a mistake and is a change that is not fun or improves gameplay.

QuebraRegra

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

Can't change CP in combat anyway. It was always an out of combat thing.

Huh, ok. Then I'm really confused as to why 15 seconds would be too long.

Because I don't want to wait 15 seconds before I can slot the CP star I want?

Step 1: walk up to a vendor
Step 2: slot Professional Upkeep, which impacts armor repair
Step 3: repair armor
Step 4: wait 15 seconds?
Step 5: slot the star for whatever activity I'm doing next

Apparently, reducing the cost of repairing my armor needed a 15 second cooldown before I can slot the star for pickpocketing, or gathering, or anything else.

Hmm, ok.

I'd looked at the armor one, and decided to skip it because it didn't seem worth the points (I don't have near enough to fill in everything.)

Guess it's just a different POV thing. I just don't picture swapping things out for little activities like that.


That said - yeah, not sure why the green tree has that many equippable skills. Most of them seem like they should be passives.
I suppose it's just because 1) they wanted it to match the other two trees, and 2) there weren't enough that really fit the "equip this for a bonus" mold, so they applied it to things that should be passives. (i.e, they pounded the round peg into the square hole, because the other two trees were square pegs.)

For perspective, I used to be able to log into Belkarth with my Silencer, do her writs, repair her armor, sell junk to a vendor, pick a few pockets, maybe murder a few people, fence the loot, and then head out for the morning coffee&farming run around Craglorn for looting chests and hoping for nirncrux without ever having to slot or unslot anything.

So it's a little annoying that now I either have to commit to slot/unslot things or I have to give up the benefits of those CP.

you no like CP micromanagement slotting minigame?

Mr_Arce88

Can't wait to spend half my gameplay reslotting starts manually on console. SO.MUCH.FUN.

QuebraRegra

rpa wrote: »

Of all things to be nerfed they decided to nerf quality of life. Or more likely someone did not think implications of their design throughly, spent lots of time, work and resources implementing it and now has a partial lemon as result. Too bad.

I'm unconvinced they play this game... i think it's more of a spreadhseet design exercise for them.

Varana

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the cooldown was added to alleviate some performance concerns on both the server and database. As this was something that changed a system new with PTS, we didn't call it out in the Live launch notes.

I mean, you do have a section called Notable Fixes/Adjustments since PTS v6.3.4.
I wonder what could be in there...

Also, 30 freaking seconds?
Yeah, I get it that you're the spokesperson having to sell a bad decision. But at some point, that amount of sugarcoating will cause people to think they're being played for fools.

stefj68

they just kill the jackofalltrades addons! lollllllllll
but agree green tree should all be passives
that was posted 1000 times on the pts
and 96%+ agreed on that
but sure what we think doesnt count

Ashtaris

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the cooldown was added to alleviate some performance concerns on both the server and database. As this was something that changed a system new with PTS, we didn't call it out in the Live launch notes.

Fine, then you really need to make more of the CP’s in the Crafting constellation passives instead of slotable’s. I think I counted on the PTS 21 slottable vs. 9 passives which is ridiculous.

AlexWaff

stefj68 wrote: »

they just kill the jackofalltrades addons! lollllllllll
but agree green tree should all be passives
that was posted 1000 times on the pts
and 96%+ agreed on that
but sure what we think doesnt count

I'm 110% convinced that most of the devs agree, but they spent so much designing the system they can't admit to themselves that this simple but annoying change is worth it, because surely it will just be way too weird if only 2 of the 3 trees have slottable skills, along with other cope justification one tells themselves when they're grasping at straws.

It's like spending a year working on a project and realizing a third of it didn't fit, but changing it would damage the integrity of the concept you want to introduce.

RedMuse

AlexWaff wrote: »

stefj68 wrote: »

they just kill the jackofalltrades addons! lollllllllll
but agree green tree should all be passives
that was posted 1000 times on the pts
and 96%+ agreed on that
but sure what we think doesnt count

I'm 110% convinced that most of the devs agree, but they spent so much designing the system they can't admit to themselves that this simple but annoying change is worth it, because surely it will just be way too weird if only 2 of the 3 trees have slottable skills, along with other cope justification one tells themselves when they're grasping at straws.

It's like spending a year working on a project and realizing a third of it didn't fit, but changing it would damage the integrity of the concept you want to introduce.

It's a game with magic, dragons and talking cats. "Weird" is the standard. One "tree" being different than the others wouldn't even be a bleep on the radar and I really think they underestimate how much "weirdness" players are willing to accept in the name of convenience and QoL.

Scardan

Lmao. I just slotted the passive fot what I am doing the most and feel no urge to micromanage my repair cost and other things. My green stars will be there forever.

Sylvermynx

I guess I'm lucky I don't have enough CP on anyone to have more than four green slottables right now. I believe I will be eventually using different characters for different sorts of things.

ArchangelIsraphel

The whole thing with the green tree stuff being slottable is inexcusably infuriating. They should all be passive. The end. This just seems like a giant waste of time for the player.

I don't normally complain about anything on the forums, but the whole idea that this was done to reduce server load makes me think that maybe, just maybe, they should seriously consider investing in better servers if it's too much trouble for a player to be able to have passives like gathering items quickly available along side other normal passives that you wouldn't be using all at the same time anyway.

I mean, I'm hardly chopping logs in combat, so I can't see why this was needed at all.