Overland is too easy!

tplink3r1

Scardan wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Scardan wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

It's your fault if the game is too easy bro, just remove all your equipment, only use light attacks, get stuck at level one and tie both your hands together if you want some challenge. If the game is still easy after that, then try playing the game while dancing the macarena.
Do i need to say that's sarcasm?
Players should not be forced to hinder themselves and remove their character's progression if they want some challenge.

Players should search for challenge in specially made challenging instances, not in content, which is supposed to be newb friendly and help to gear up before doing challenging stuff. Not mentioning material nodes being "guarded" by mobs.

There's no dichotomy between the game being hard and newb friendly at the same time, and this is where most people seem to fail when they complain about those who want a harder game

I mean, there is "easy" overland, which is not easy for no CP new players, which start in Vvardenfell and get beaten to death by trolls, flying things and story bosses and at the same time there are difficult dungeon modes . People search for challenge in wrong places imho and then complain.

Also CP being account wide is imho part of the problem. People make lvl 1 CP999999 chars and complain that overland is easy. Yeah, it will be easy.

The game is very easy even without cp, so it wouldn't matter

Massacre_Wurm

icapital wrote: »

"it's fine for me so obviously there's no point on changing things"

If you want relaxing, go play Stardew Valley.

This is an MMORPG - FIRST everything else second. Therefore, it has to cater to a wide spectrum of players with the medium being semi-hardcore players a.k.a casuals. Then you have the extreme carebear casuals, such as yourself, that fall into the "I just want to focus on decorating my house" versus the other extreme end of "I'm the best at PvP" or "I've completed all trials".

The open worlds difficulty is too easy. Period end of story.

They either need to put in a difficulty slider or fix the level scaling.

If you want challenge go play VCR+3 and stop talking about overland. It will never happen because there is no money in it. No one is going to make questionable feature for 10+ people.

What "difficulty slider" are you talking about ? Its doest work this way in MMO.

Dixa

icapital wrote: »

"it's fine for me so obviously there's no point on changing things"

If you want relaxing, go play Stardew Valley.

This is an MMORPG - FIRST everything else second. Therefore, it has to cater to a wide spectrum of players with the medium being semi-hardcore players a.k.a casuals. Then you have the extreme carebear casuals, such as yourself, that fall into the "I just want to focus on decorating my house" versus the other extreme end of "I'm the best at PvP" or "I've completed all trials".

The open worlds difficulty is too easy. Period end of story.

They either need to put in a difficulty slider or fix the level scaling.

horrible counter argument. mmorpgs don't have to have challenging overland content.

yes they did once. the world was different then. and the overland of ultima online, meridian 59 and everquest were still not as hard as teh MUD's that came before them. but this isn't 1993, or 1999 or even 2004 anymore. The games are larger in scope and content and far more difficult at end game than their predecessors.

you make a lot of assumptions about me there which I find hilarious, and is why nobody is going to take you seriously.

Faded

icapital wrote: »

"it's fine for me so obviously there's no point on changing things"

If you want relaxing, go play Stardew Valley.

"I don't personally enjoy it so obviously it must be changed."

If you want trash mobs to give you a fight, go play Dark Souls.

icapital wrote: »

This is an MMORPG - FIRST everything else second. Therefore, it has to cater to a wide spectrum of players.

That's right.

Animus-ESO

Difficult content breeds better players. If they refuse to increase the difficulty in overland on base game content at least do it for expansions. Vet players are the most ignored player base in this MMO.

It's kind of sad. I've been playing since 2014, I haven't touched overland PVE content since Wrothgar. I can't enjoy a story when I two shot every minion and kill the main boss in under a min.

I can't even recommend this game to my friends because we simply can't quest together... Everything is so easy adding a 2-3 person group makes it laughable. This has to be the most anti social MMO I've ever played.

I'm 30 years old and was around for the launch of Dark ages of Camelot, WoW, City of Heros, Ultima Online, Guild wars 1 and 2, even the New World beta and I always leveled up with friends that I've gained threw the years I've been online gaming. But not this game. It's too easy, It's a joke...

QuebraRegra

*does everything possible to achieve the greatest min/max build, then complains about power-creep*

[Snip]

[Edited for minor bait]

Dixa

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

Difficult content breeds better players. If they refuse to increase the difficulty in overland on base game content at least do it for expansions. Vet players are the most ignored player base in this MMO.

It's kind of sad. I've been playing since 2014, I haven't touched overland PVE content since Wrothgar. I can't enjoy a story when I two shot every minion and kill the main boss in under a min.

I can't even recommend this game to my friends because we simply can't quest together... Everything is so easy adding a 2-3 person group makes it laughable. This has to be the most anti social MMO I've ever played.

I'm 30 years old and was around for the launch of Dark ages of Camelot, WoW, City of Heros, Ultima Online, Guild wars 1 and 2, even the New World beta and I always leveled up with friends that I've gained threw the years I've been online gaming. But not this game. It's too easy, It's a joke...

daoc had no endgame before shrouded isles pve wise unless your faction controlled darkness falls.
WoW overland was only difficult for some classes, and a breeze for others.
city of heroes was likewise extremely easy for some classes and hard for others. the game had zero end game though, all you did was instanced content or you were overland herding the entire map as a tanker/scrapper on PI
ultima online overland was never hard, the other players trying to kill you was what made anything hard
never played gw1
gw2 had the easiest overland of any game you listed and it's still stupid easy today.

overland in eso was not hard outside of craglorn at the start, locked behind veteran ranks. it's not hard now. nor should it be. unlike older mmorpgs the difficult content is made exclusively for max level characters. plenty of classes and newer players sure as hell are not soloing world bosses the first time they see them, but when overgeared vet runs up and solos it for them wihtout saying a word or even ACKNOWLEDGING THEIR EXISTENCE it's again not the games fault but simply how the general mmorpg community is now. cliquish. just look at how terrible the wow classic experience really was for so many, nothing like actual vanilla.

no, overland being "hard" does not make better players not when there are so many other avenues to fight more challenging content in this game starting with being on level for a normal dungeon - yet most of the community doesn't even have the patience for that. how many fools continue to queue as fake tanks and fake healers then just gogo rush the group through the dungeon not even letting the new player get the quests? that's right, too many.

if you think making overland harder will fix the underlying issues that prevent decent player retention in this game you are not paying attention.

CP5

Dixa, you seem to forget a lot of pre-One Tamriel gameplay or weren't around for it. Cadwell's silver and gold was a challenge where even basic mobs put up a decent fight, there were two instances where I fought the storm atronach dolmen boss and the people I was fighting with and myself were chain rezing from the nearest wayshrine to keep the fight going because he was actually a challenging boss.

Having overland content be challenging to the degree that new players need to explore different parts of the game, learn, and improve, which does make for better players. If they face no challenges and can just breeze through anything they face they enter dungeons with the idea that what they're doing is good and that blows up in their face quickly. For the sake of teaching new players and engaging veterans, there should be an option for this kind of content, because if the content has no spine then the only variety is a thin paint job that doesn't engage the vets and lets the new players down.

Dixa

CP5 wrote: »

Dixa, you seem to forget a lot of pre-One Tamriel gameplay or weren't around for it. Cadwell's silver and gold was a challenge where even basic mobs put up a decent fight, there were two instances where I fought the storm atronach dolmen boss and the people I was fighting with and myself were chain rezing from the nearest wayshrine to keep the fight going because he was actually a challenging boss.

Having overland content be challenging to the degree that new players need to explore different parts of the game, learn, and improve, which does make for better players. If they face no challenges and can just breeze through anything they face they enter dungeons with the idea that what they're doing is good and that blows up in their face quickly. For the sake of teaching new players and engaging veterans, there should be an option for this kind of content, because if the content has no spine then the only variety is a thin paint job that doesn't engage the vets and lets the new players down.

i did caldwell's gold at launch as a sorc, did not have any real challenges in overland content until craglorn. there were also fewer zones and no one ever had to solo a world boss there were plenty of other players around. it did't make me or anyone who was dying around me better since a lot of the one shots people were dying to were also bugged and invisible. don't forget how stupidly buggy the game was during that period too.

the game is older now, there is far more content and a lot more overland to grind. slow that down now given how much there is of it to do is not a good idea.

tplink3r1

QuebraRegra wrote: »

*does everything possible to achieve the greatest min/max build, then complains about power-creep*

[Snip]

Right, therefore let's make the game so easy to the point where we can run around naked killing stuff
[Snip]

[Edited for minor bait]

Starlock

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Hmm.

The problem with creating difficult overland content is that the people that want it don't actually seem to want it. I say that based on the fact that you don't see these players regularly at the difficult overland content that already exists. Assuming there are a lot of you, I don't see a lot of you around doing the world bosses and harrowstorms.

If I had to guess, I'd say this happens because most people don't stand in one spot and kill one mob over and over again.

But like I said, it's just a guess.

I'm talking about the collective, not the individual.

If the people who claim they want hard overland content actually wanted it they would be all over the hard overland content that already exists. Obviously i t wouldn't be the same person standing there every time, but if you visited a harrowstorm or a world boss, this demographic who claims they want hard content would be doing the hard content. So why aren't they consistently and reliably there?

Where are they? What they want exists in the game already right now. Where are they? Considering they aren't doing the difficult overland content now, what makes anyone think they would consistently do the difficult overland content that gets added? I don't think they would. What I've observed doesn't support the conclusion that these players who claim they want this stuff would actually do the stuff, and neither does the history of the zone that was Craglorn.

Kwoung

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

I'm 30 years old and was around for the launch of Dark ages of Camelot, WoW, City of Heros, Ultima Online, Guild wars 1 and 2, even the New World beta and I always leveled up with friends that I've gained threw the years I've been online gaming. But not this game. It's too easy, It's a joke...

I am double that and ran a BBS, played MUD's, Meridian 59, and was in the original EQ beta. Then WoW came out and it and every game since has been a complete joke challenge wise. ESO is no better or worst than any of them, where this game shines is the storyline, which is either completely missing or disjointed in most other games.

The point of a MMORPG is to become more powerful, thus making beginner/overland content easier, because you are a hero and can walk without consequences where others fear. Then there are the raids/trials/arenas on any level, which really aren't challenging either, just an exercise in memorizing mechanics and having good enough twitch skills to do a perfect rotation, which is an area ESO wanders from most other MMORPG's. In fact, it reminds me a lot of PacMan, Asteroids and Mario Bros in that respect. In every other MMORPG I have played, gear was king, in ESO twitch keyboard skills are king. So unfortunately, if you have those skills all content will be easy, and if you don't it will be hard. For most players either by choice or physical/mental limitations, they will never be able to reach the perfectly timed rotation, so there is the problem.

I am sure all the l33t gamers who can nail their perfect rotation can clear WB's on a level 30 using random dropped gear, because they can hit 20-50k DPS using that gear. Most others can't, and would be lucky to hit 2-5k. And FYI, it isn't a matter of git gud, for many players this system is impossible to master for the reasons stated above. I have practiced my rotation more times than I can remember and was able to hit over 70k exactly once for reasons unknown, I normally do 55k and it pretty much sits there refusing to move up.

erio

Casual players can deal with enemies that arent made of string cheese. Why ZOS makes all enemies have like .000001 hp is beyond me.

Dixa

tplink3r1 wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

*does everything possible to achieve the greatest min/max build, then complains about power-creep*

[Snip]

Right, therefore let's make the game so easy to the point where we can run around naked killing stuff
[Snip]

they make the game harder in every dlc - in the dungeons. and the world bosses.

this does not mean they need to re-address all of the overland every time new content and new power comes out.

icapital

Not just low HP, but their damage output is the equivalent of getting a papercut.

There are literally videos on youtube that prove this where players purposely stand naked and get attacked by an enemy NPC and the health bar barely figets on the player while they're just standing there taking it.

There is literally zero risk/reward for that reason and that sense of danger in the world is completely missing.

bUt U cAn RuN vEt dUnGEoNs Or TrIalZ or my favorite jUsT rUn NaKeD nO CP.

Yes, let's purposely cripple ourselves and play the game like *snip* instead of just fixing the difficulty of the open world or adding a difficulty slider.

[Snip]

[Edited for rude comment/removed content]

TequilaFire

So since this is an MMO, what happens when player A on easy mode rolls up to a mob or world boss at the same time as a player B on hard mode? Do they get the same reward?
Overland isn't instanced like dungeons or trials so kind of messy having difficulty switches/sliders.
Not to mention now the server has to keep track of all the difficulty settings.
I do like the idea of a CP on/off switch across the platforms.

Maybe just give better roots/snares to the NPCs as all I ever see is players running away from the string of mobs chasing them.

Dixa

I also wanted to point out since someone here mentioned the old cadwell silver/gold - player rentention dropped off hardcore after vr-5 and cadwell's silver because people were bored of the overland grind. my friends list was a ghost town a few months in because doing cadwells gold did not appeal - people wanted to raid and dungeon and pvp exclusively at some point.

the overland is much much larger now, with more to do, more world and guild skillines, more crafting skill lines, more skyshards and cp's and more everything. it's too late to slow it down now.

Dixa

icapital wrote: »

Not just low HP, but their damage output is the equivalent of getting a papercut.

There are literally videos on youtube that prove this where players purposely stand naked and get attacked by an enemy NPC and the health bar barely figets on the player while they're just standing there taking it.

There is literally zero risk/reward for that reason and that sense of danger in the world is completely missing.

bUt U cAn RuN vEt dUnGEoNs Or TrIalZ or my favorite jUsT rUn NaKeD nO CP.

Yes, let's purposely cripple ourselves and play the game like *snip* instead of just fixing the difficulty of the open world or adding a difficulty slider.

[Snip]

link the video you mention.

kargen27

Eedat wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

I seriously don't get why so many people seem to get offended and feel personally attacked when someone asks for a difficulty slider.

It's because there are a lot of people here who disagree out of sheer spite or jealously. Ironically they're the same ones that will tell you "if you don't like it, don't use it" when discussing something they want in another thread. There are tons of them in real life so no surprise that there are tons of them here. The type that get angry at others' success.

Or it could be because a slider makes zero sense. You move your slider to difficult and see a horde of zombies and think cool a good fight. Then another player comes along sliders set to easy and wipes out all your zombies. Two players at a world boss with different settings on their slider what happens? Which players slider has priority? And even worse players keep saying they should get better drops for making things more difficult. They claim it is about fun then immediately go to with better drops.
If the slider were made to weaken the players stats it might work. That isn't what most players have in mind when they mention sliders.

Jeffrey530

icapital wrote: »

Not just low HP, but their damage output is the equivalent of getting a papercut.

There are literally videos on youtube that prove this where players purposely stand naked and get attacked by an enemy NPC and the health bar barely figets on the player while they're just standing there taking it.

There is literally zero risk/reward for that reason and that sense of danger in the world is completely missing.

bUt U cAn RuN vEt dUnGEoNs Or TrIalZ or my favorite jUsT rUn NaKeD nO CP.

Yes, let's purposely cripple ourselves and play the game like *snip* instead of just fixing the difficulty of the open world or adding a difficulty slider.

[Snip].

Show me the videos I can't find them. I am cp810 and if I equip dd gear rather than tank gear, I still die to a pack of wolves if I stand there and do nothing.

QuebraRegra

tplink3r1 wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

*does everything possible to achieve the greatest min/max build, then complains about power-creep*

silly humans.

Right, therefore let's make the game so easy to the point where we can run around naked killing stuff
[Snip]

yer concern is real, but yer solution is part of the problem, and creates an endless cycle.

We told them about the power creep that would come with the change from the VET to CP system, even with all the nerfs further balance changes just exacerbated the problem. Even back in the day we had the bucket wearing broom swishers whooping Molag Bal. Apparently we get up to a 20% nerf with the new CP system.. so that's a start right?

They didn't make the game easier, they just balanced poorly, and power creep made a considerable amount of content trivial. The cycle will repeat, even if they increase overland difficulty (a simple increase would be a poor solution)..

Some games use a selectable WORLD TIER system, maybe that might be an approach. I think more could be done to improve Horizontal progression and improve diversity in play styles... freshen it up a bit.

That said if you chase godhood and find that you've arrived, then you got what you wanted right?

WiseSky

Don't you dare make make this game harder for my GF who screams at all mobs!

And runs away if two or more attacker.

Iccotak

Eedat wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

I seriously don't get why so many people seem to get offended and feel personally attacked when someone asks for a difficulty slider.

It's because there are a lot of people here who disagree out of sheer spite or jealously. Ironically they're the same ones that will tell you "if you don't like it, don't use it" when discussing something they want in another thread. There are tons of them in real life so no surprise that there are tons of them here. The type that get angry at others' success.

Can confirm this to be the case.

When I made a thread talking about making an end game activity from main story bosses, and the issue of rewards came up there was definitely an overwhelming sentiment of resentment against endgame players from the opposing side.

It was a really annoying conversation

icapital wrote: »

I love the people in here saying bUt mUdCrAbZ gIvE nEw pLaYeRz a ChAlEnGe.

No, they really really don't. I created a brand new character on a brand spanking new account and the difficulty was laughable at best. Literally no CP and not even geared, the OVERLANDS DIFFICULTY IS A JOKE AND TAKES AWAY FROM THE IMMERSION.

Drill that into your head until you understand what the other side of the table is telling you. Some of you remember difficulty levels that no longer exist in this game. When the game first released, there was challenge in the open world. Enough people complained because they didn't even bother learning their rotations and poof, nerfed difficulty.

The final nail in the coffin on the open worlds difficulty was this failed level scaling system that addressed one thing and broke 10 others.

Those of you arguing against greater difficulty in the open world are part of the problem and why so many visit this game and promptly leave. They blame plenty of things for their lack of immersion and the janky combat where failed mechanics are called "features" as well as the ridiculous easy mode.

Don't spend an hour hyping up a quest boss to then only be face rolled in a minute.

MAKE - THE - OPEN WORLD - MORE - CHALLENGING.

Risk vs. Reward is a REAL psychological concept applies in this genre.

Make Main Story Bosses HARD!

Iccotak

Faded wrote: »

icapital wrote: »

"it's fine for me so obviously there's no point on changing things"

If you want relaxing, go play Stardew Valley.

"I don't personally enjoy it so obviously it must be changed."

If you want trash mobs to give you a fight, go play Dark Souls.

For me it is that I know the developers are capable of making engaging combat so when Overland and more importantly the Main Story are not engaging fights it gets really disappointing

kalimar44

I can literally fight overland mobs with my eyes closed, and I haven't died yet.😂😂

MorganaLaVey

C'mon guys... you end game players allready have 0.1% of the game all to youre self... Now you want to be able to paly the meager 99% for new players too

Starlock wrote: »

I'm talking about the collective, not the individual.

If the people who claim they want hard overland content actually wanted it they would be all over the hard overland content that already exists. [...] So why aren't they consistently and reliably there?

Where are they? What they want exists in the game already right now. Where are they? Considering they aren't doing the difficult overland content now, what makes anyone think they would consistently do the difficult overland content that gets added? [...].

Draons & Harrowstorms are a part of the entire experience. Wy would someone just randomly go and do a dragon ? If you're on the other hand allready in the area for a quest and you see a dragon flying over your head and landing near by...

EDIT:

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Show me the videos I can't find them. I am cp810 and if I equip dd gear rather than tank gear, I still die to a pack of wolves if I stand there and do nothing.

in this thred https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524584/why-is-this-game-so-easy/p17

Dahveed wrote: »

My naked, CP-less, skill-less brand new character with no stats and no buffs killing an elite enemy in the overworld, pressing two buttons: The directional arrow key "left", and the "1" key.

I finish the fight with 100% health.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB-3LANzQAQ

kargen27

Iccotak wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

I seriously don't get why so many people seem to get offended and feel personally attacked when someone asks for a difficulty slider.

It's because there are a lot of people here who disagree out of sheer spite or jealously. Ironically they're the same ones that will tell you "if you don't like it, don't use it" when discussing something they want in another thread. There are tons of them in real life so no surprise that there are tons of them here. The type that get angry at others' success.

Can confirm this to be the case.

When I made a thread talking about making an end game activity from main story bosses, and the issue of rewards came up there was definitely an overwhelming sentiment of resentment against endgame players from the opposing side.

It was a really annoying conversation

icapital wrote: »

I love the people in here saying bUt mUdCrAbZ gIvE nEw pLaYeRz a ChAlEnGe.

No, they really really don't. I created a brand new character on a brand spanking new account and the difficulty was laughable at best. Literally no CP and not even geared, the OVERLANDS DIFFICULTY IS A JOKE AND TAKES AWAY FROM THE IMMERSION.

Drill that into your head until you understand what the other side of the table is telling you. Some of you remember difficulty levels that no longer exist in this game. When the game first released, there was challenge in the open world. Enough people complained because they didn't even bother learning their rotations and poof, nerfed difficulty.

The final nail in the coffin on the open worlds difficulty was this failed level scaling system that addressed one thing and broke 10 others.

Those of you arguing against greater difficulty in the open world are part of the problem and why so many visit this game and promptly leave. They blame plenty of things for their lack of immersion and the janky combat where failed mechanics are called "features" as well as the ridiculous easy mode.

Don't spend an hour hyping up a quest boss to then only be face rolled in a minute.

MAKE - THE - OPEN WORLD - MORE - CHALLENGING.

Risk vs. Reward is a REAL psychological concept applies in this genre.

Make Main Story Bosses HARD!

Read your other thread and resentment of endgame players really wasn't the overlying feel of the thread. The opposition to your idea was the increased rewards you suggested. The opposition was to getting different/better rewards for doing the final boss depending on the level you choose. Much like this thread it is about not compelling people to do harder levels feeling they are missing out on better rewards. These threads always start out about fun/immersion/challenges and inevitably someone says 'oh yeah and it should give better drops'.
If it is about enjoying the game you don't need the better drops. If you insist on there being better or different drops it is about the goodies and not the difficulty. It isn't an animosity towards end game players.

I'm all for allowing players to choose a difficulty for solo instanced content. Would be fun. There should be no extra rewards attached though. Doing that only leads to player frustration. That player frustration (feeling they are not getting the good stuff) would mostly happen among newer players making it more likely they leave the game.

A more challenging open world would be great as well. Again no extra or different rewards. And any changes would need to affect the player and not the content. I suggest foods and potions that lower stats. Could be a variety of foods. One might reduce health and health regeneration. Another might slow you down to a walk only, maybe make blocking ineffective. Different level foods would be less or more severe in handicapping your character. Eat the special gold food to go in naked and blind even.

Faded

Iccotak wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

icapital wrote: »

"it's fine for me so obviously there's no point on changing things"

If you want relaxing, go play Stardew Valley.

"I don't personally enjoy it so obviously it must be changed."

If you want trash mobs to give you a fight, go play Dark Souls.

For me it is that I know the developers are capable of making engaging combat so when Overland and more importantly the Main Story are not engaging fights it gets really disappointing

Oh, that comment was only for the player quoted. There are plenty of reasonable arguments here, and instancing of bosses with a choice for a harder fight is imo a great idea.

I doubt it will be particularly enjoyable, given what they come up with for trials bosses, but they could make it a fight even for guys who go everywhere and do everything in their gold BIS gear. And no special rewards, not even cosmetics, so we're all clear it's just about the immersion of a challenging fight with the Big Bad.

Athan1

preevious wrote: »

Difficulty's fine for overland.

Challenge yourself with other content, if you want difficulty. Solo arenas, group dungeons, trials...
But leave what's easy easy for those who don't care about being strong.They deserve to play, too.

I mean, if you are in overland for the quests, combat is just getting in the way of your fun, so, better make it as short as possible.

Exactly! If I wanted a challenge or to kill things, I'd be farming vet content... I'm doing quests to relax and "watch" an interactive "movie", not to parse on overland...

Athan1

icapital wrote: »

I love the people in here saying bUt mUdCrAbZ gIvE nEw pLaYeRz a ChAlEnGe.

Um. I was obviously talking about a brand new player without experience of ESO (we have lots of those all the time), not about CP1000+ that reroll with a new alt... When you don't know how this game works everything is overwhelming.