Overland is too easy!

Agenericname

kargen27 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

DukeCybran wrote: »

Try to withdraw your CP and to run without a set, or go to Craglorn or craft yourself a set of level 5 gear.

Gimping yourself is not the same as more difficult content unless you get a reward for it. I want to use the gear that took hours/days/weeks/months to collect. I am not withdrawing my CP every time Im doing a quest, then have to allocate them for a dungeon run and having to withdraw them again for doing a quest. Ive done Craglorn mostly solo but thats just one zone, the new quests are often not in Craglorn.

I would be fine with an item that equips in my costume slot that lets me take more damage, deal less damage while gaining more XP/loot/gold for example.

And every one of these threads always goes to the same place.

"I'm too powerful because I built myself specifically to be powerful, so you need to give me harder content that matches my elite skill level, and then give me good rewards for beating it so I can get even more power so I can set myself even further above the other noobs in zone!"

It really makes me wonder what the average DPS of players on the forums is versus what it is in game. If the average DPS in game were what it was on the forums, we'd never hear any comments about failed PUGs since people would be able to DPS anything down without effort.

I get wanting more out of the story. I'm one of those people who'd love to be able to solo dungeons for the stories. Give me back the quests, get rid of the 'you need two people' mechanics like the second Direfrost plate or the pins, and just let me see the dialogue. No rewards, no bonus XP, no gold, nothing. My reward would be finally getting to see the storyline. I get that this is probably one of the points of the Companions system. But Companions won't reset the dialogue for the quests I've already done.

Also remember they had adventure zones, and they failed since people said it was too hard. Yes, now we have the benefit of CP and power creep, but there's also a decent nerf to DPS coming up in the next patch. Besides, there are enough people who need help and nobody wants to go do it - I know so many people park their characters in Vivec/Alinor/Rimmen, but how many new players in those zones can actually find people to help with the WBs? Even though there are quests to get them, I very rarely see people taking on WBs in Vvardenfell or NElsweyr, or dealing with any of the dragons outside of the one by the wayshrine. As a result, new Lv. 25 players with white gear, no sets, and no consumables are getting one shot by these, not getting help, and then think that overland is too hard. Sure, we could have the 'veteran' instance of a zone, but then that still leaves all the noobs together so they can't complete anything unless they go to the vet when they're not ready.

Mostly there's just no incentive for the devs to do that - I doubt people would want to pay for overland versions of the same zones, and that would take as much work to redo all of the overland encounters as it would be to make a new chapter. People are already complaining "is that it?" with the antiquities, and now there are more complaints about companions and how that one feature isn't worth the cost of a chapter. How would people react if ZOS came out and said "hey, $60 and you get the same game, but all we did was buff Bittergreen the Guar to be on the level of Z'Maja!"

Nice story but you have to understand that giving players an option will change nothing for players who dont change the difficulty. Every argument comes back to the point that overland difficulty is not too easy for inexperienced players, which doesnt explain why couldnt be more challenging for experienced players. Similar to dungeons and trails for example.

In the first period of the game there was no difficulty option for dungeons and trails, they were simply leveled to match the party, either to the leader or lowest level group member I dont remember exactly. Eventually ZOS recognized that there is a difference in skill level which led to dungeons and trails getting an easier version with normal mode.

Now the experienced players ask for overland content to match their skill level and its not possible? Yes, there are plenty challenges if you look for them, you can solo WBs, dragons, harrowstorms or vet dungeons but that wont change the fact that new quest lines from DLCs are boring for experienced players who have been supporting ZOS for a long time.

Dungeons and trials were much easier to give levels of difficulty because they are instanced to the group. Overland is not. The solution that works for trials will not work for overland. Splitting overland zones into normal and vet could easily make those zones feel empty.

The zones are already split and Im already not in overland. Its not a loss.

It also seem like many want a single player experience. This seems like a win for just about everyone.

Iccotak

Faded wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

icapital wrote: »

"it's fine for me so obviously there's no point on changing things"

If you want relaxing, go play Stardew Valley.

"I don't personally enjoy it so obviously it must be changed."

If you want trash mobs to give you a fight, go play Dark Souls.

For me it is that I know the developers are capable of making engaging combat so when Overland and more importantly the Main Story are not engaging fights it gets really disappointing

Oh, that comment was only for the player quoted. There are plenty of reasonable arguments here, and instancing of bosses with a choice for a harder fight is imo a great idea.

I doubt it will be particularly enjoyable, given what they come up with for trials bosses, but they could make it a fight even for guys who go everywhere and do everything in their gold BIS gear. And no special rewards, not even cosmetics, so we're all clear it's just about the immersion of a challenging fight with the Big Bad.

If you are going to make a new game mode you cannot make it so that it only appeals to one very specific type of player.

Are there people like myself who would play a horror game mode for the main story bosses with or without rewards? Absolutely.
There is also a large player base that only does activities for the rewards - Because that is how the game is designed.

Does that model go against how the game is currently designed?
Yes. All activities have an accompanying reward. Any activity with a difficulty option has a change in rewards.

Would the investment in that activity be justified? In the long term no.

To make a whole new game mode with varying levels of difficulty that has no added reward makes no sense in the context of how the game is currently designed.

If we were to implement difficulty settings for main story bosses, to be on par with dungeons and trials, they would half to be radically changed.

First, they would have to become repeatable activities – the developers do not invest in making things mechanically difficult if it cannot be repeated because that would make it a waste of resources.

Second, there would have to be rewards that are appropriate to the difficulty chosen, Not only because that is how the rest of the game is designed but also because while there are those who would play it regardless of rewards there would be were a huge portion of the player base who would not participate in it.

If you were going to make a game mode you have to make it appeal to more than one type of player.

If you are going to make the main story part of endgame content then actually make it part of endgame content and don’t do a half-measure.

Iccotak

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

I seriously don't get why so many people seem to get offended and feel personally attacked when someone asks for a difficulty slider.

It's because there are a lot of people here who disagree out of sheer spite or jealously. Ironically they're the same ones that will tell you "if you don't like it, don't use it" when discussing something they want in another thread. There are tons of them in real life so no surprise that there are tons of them here. The type that get angry at others' success.

Can confirm this to be the case.

When I made a thread talking about making an end game activity from main story bosses, and the issue of rewards came up there was definitely an overwhelming sentiment of resentment against endgame players from the opposing side.

It was a really annoying conversation

icapital wrote: »

I love the people in here saying bUt mUdCrAbZ gIvE nEw pLaYeRz a ChAlEnGe.

No, they really really don't. I created a brand new character on a brand spanking new account and the difficulty was laughable at best. Literally no CP and not even geared, the OVERLANDS DIFFICULTY IS A JOKE AND TAKES AWAY FROM THE IMMERSION.

Drill that into your head until you understand what the other side of the table is telling you. Some of you remember difficulty levels that no longer exist in this game. When the game first released, there was challenge in the open world. Enough people complained because they didn't even bother learning their rotations and poof, nerfed difficulty.

The final nail in the coffin on the open worlds difficulty was this failed level scaling system that addressed one thing and broke 10 others.

Those of you arguing against greater difficulty in the open world are part of the problem and why so many visit this game and promptly leave. They blame plenty of things for their lack of immersion and the janky combat where failed mechanics are called "features" as well as the ridiculous easy mode.

Don't spend an hour hyping up a quest boss to then only be face rolled in a minute.

MAKE - THE - OPEN WORLD - MORE - CHALLENGING.

Risk vs. Reward is a REAL psychological concept applies in this genre.

Make Main Story Bosses HARD!

Read your other thread and resentment of endgame players really wasn't the overlying feel of the thread. The opposition to your idea was the increased rewards you suggested. The opposition was to getting different/better rewards for doing the final boss depending on the level you choose. Much like this thread it is about not compelling people to do harder levels feeling they are missing out on better rewards. These threads always start out about fun/immersion/challenges and inevitably someone says 'oh yeah and it should give better drops'.
If it is about enjoying the game you don't need the better drops. If you insist on there being better or different drops it is about the goodies and not the difficulty. It isn't an animosity towards end game players.

I'm all for allowing players to choose a difficulty for solo instanced content. Would be fun. There should be no extra rewards attached though. Doing that only leads to player frustration. That player frustration (feeling they are not getting the good stuff) would mostly happen among newer players making it more likely they leave the game.

A more challenging open world would be great as well. Again no extra or different rewards. And any changes would need to affect the player and not the content. I suggest foods and potions that lower stats. Could be a variety of foods. One might reduce health and health regeneration. Another might slow you down to a walk only, maybe make blocking ineffective. Different level foods would be less or more severe in handicapping your character. Eat the special gold food to go in naked and blind even.

A self Nerf will never be an effective measure because it doesn’t actually solve the problem of engaging combat. The problem is not solely the stats of the player. The problem is that the enemies in general are incapable. They lack abilities, they lack tactics, they lack mechanics, and there is no hierarchy - all of them are just equally difficult.

All a self Nerf would do is make the combat tedious, not actually tough & engaging like they are in WB, Arenas, dungeons, and trials.

Faded

Iccotak wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

icapital wrote: »

"it's fine for me so obviously there's no point on changing things"

If you want relaxing, go play Stardew Valley.

"I don't personally enjoy it so obviously it must be changed."

If you want trash mobs to give you a fight, go play Dark Souls.

For me it is that I know the developers are capable of making engaging combat so when Overland and more importantly the Main Story are not engaging fights it gets really disappointing

Oh, that comment was only for the player quoted. There are plenty of reasonable arguments here, and instancing of bosses with a choice for a harder fight is imo a great idea.

I doubt it will be particularly enjoyable, given what they come up with for trials bosses, but they could make it a fight even for guys who go everywhere and do everything in their gold BIS gear. And no special rewards, not even cosmetics, so we're all clear it's just about the immersion of a challenging fight with the Big Bad.

If you are going to make a new game mode you cannot make it so that it only appeals to one very specific type of player.

Are there people like myself who would play a horror game mode for the main story bosses with or without rewards? Absolutely.
There is also a large player base that only does activities for the rewards - Because that is how the game is designed.

Does that model go against how the game is currently designed?
Yes. All activities have an accompanying reward. Any activity with a difficulty option has a change in rewards.

Would the investment in that activity be justified? In the long term no.

To make a whole new game mode with varying levels of difficulty that has no added reward makes no sense in the context of how the game is currently designed.

If we were to implement difficulty settings for main story bosses, to be on par with dungeons and trials, they would half to be radically changed.

First, they would have to become repeatable activities – the developers do not invest in making things mechanically difficult if it cannot be repeated because that would make it a waste of resources.

Second, there would have to be rewards that are appropriate to the difficulty chosen, Not only because that is how the rest of the game is designed but also because while there are those who would play it regardless of rewards there would be were a huge portion of the player base who would not participate in it.

If you were going to make a game mode you have to make it appeal to more than one type of player.

If you are going to make the main story part of endgame content then actually make it part of endgame content and don’t do a half-measure.

Oh, you want the game remade to your specifications. I thought it was about a challenging fight at the end of a questline.

Well, good luck.

Sevn

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

My God the number of post that keep mentioning WoW or other games that do this or that, suggestion, go play that game that plays the way you want?.

Every week such a pointless request.

One, what level of difficulty are they going to use? Normal dungeons? Vet dungeons? Hard mode vet trial boss? Just how many different overworlds will be needed? I'll bet you anything if you put a poll up asking what level would be cool you'd get a split vote, so not even the folks who keep asking for this can agree on difficulty.

Two, just how often will they have to keep redoing overland? It doesn't matter what level they make it, some will still find it easy, blow through it all in no time and be right back here asking for more and more tweaks and better rewards. They will NEVER be content.

Which brings us lastly to rewards. If it's really about challenge than stop asking for better rewards to incentivize you. Period. Wasting the devs time on this is your reward because I know most have zero interest in actually paying for anything like this.

Players build up this super beast of a character and then complains the game is too easy and refuses to do anything about it themselves because they put so many hours into creating this godlike toon. Well duh the content is too easy then and it ALWAYS will be if you keep getting better gear/items and you know it, so why keep asking for better rewards for incentive when it will put you right back where you started?

Because it's really about the loot.

Give me an example of the loot you think veteran players want. I can promise you it doesn't drop from overland content.

In an effort to not put any words in anyone's mouth I'll ask that you just read the various requests from the many threads like this.

As a veteran player myself who is in fact in favor of this I'd take anything they offer that can't be obtained in normals because overland IS easy and after maybe a week I would exploit this new mode strictly for the better rewards and try and profit from it. I routinely run thru souls games with zero armor and a broken sword, I think I can handle whatever lame difficulty Zos implements lol.

I also have tons of alts to maximize exploiting any type of rewards. So yes, I'm totally fine with better rewards lol.

Iccotak

Faded wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

icapital wrote: »

"it's fine for me so obviously there's no point on changing things"

If you want relaxing, go play Stardew Valley.

"I don't personally enjoy it so obviously it must be changed."

If you want trash mobs to give you a fight, go play Dark Souls.

For me it is that I know the developers are capable of making engaging combat so when Overland and more importantly the Main Story are not engaging fights it gets really disappointing

Oh, that comment was only for the player quoted. There are plenty of reasonable arguments here, and instancing of bosses with a choice for a harder fight is imo a great idea.

I doubt it will be particularly enjoyable, given what they come up with for trials bosses, but they could make it a fight even for guys who go everywhere and do everything in their gold BIS gear. And no special rewards, not even cosmetics, so we're all clear it's just about the immersion of a challenging fight with the Big Bad.

If you are going to make a new game mode you cannot make it so that it only appeals to one very specific type of player.

Are there people like myself who would play a horror game mode for the main story bosses with or without rewards? Absolutely.
There is also a large player base that only does activities for the rewards - Because that is how the game is designed.

Does that model go against how the game is currently designed?
Yes. All activities have an accompanying reward. Any activity with a difficulty option has a change in rewards.

Would the investment in that activity be justified? In the long term no.

To make a whole new game mode with varying levels of difficulty that has no added reward makes no sense in the context of how the game is currently designed.

If we were to implement difficulty settings for main story bosses, to be on par with dungeons and trials, they would half to be radically changed.

First, they would have to become repeatable activities – the developers do not invest in making things mechanically difficult if it cannot be repeated because that would make it a waste of resources.

Second, there would have to be rewards that are appropriate to the difficulty chosen, Not only because that is how the rest of the game is designed but also because while there are those who would play it regardless of rewards there would be were a huge portion of the player base who would not participate in it.

If you were going to make a game mode you have to make it appeal to more than one type of player.

If you are going to make the main story part of endgame content then actually make it part of endgame content and don’t do a half-measure.

Oh, you want the game remade to your specifications. I thought it was about a challenging fight at the end of a questline.

Well, good luck.

I’ve said it many times, I want the main story bosses to get the same treatment as dungeons and trials.

The story should not be for just one specific audience, they should be part of endgame content because not only is that content actually hard and engaging but it would get more endgame players invested in the story.

Because that content is always where the developers put actual effort in mechanics. The developers don’t put any real effort in mechanics for content that is not repeatable or endgame.

If we were to go with the other suggestions people have made for main story bosses, (and Overland) they would be half measures. All they would do is hit a little harder but they would not actually be more difficult, complex, or engaging. It would be a band-aid solution.

I don’t want a Band-Aid solution which is what many people have offered.

(I have seen this across-the-board in other threads and in mine)

kargen27

Agenericname wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

DukeCybran wrote: »

Try to withdraw your CP and to run without a set, or go to Craglorn or craft yourself a set of level 5 gear.

Gimping yourself is not the same as more difficult content unless you get a reward for it. I want to use the gear that took hours/days/weeks/months to collect. I am not withdrawing my CP every time Im doing a quest, then have to allocate them for a dungeon run and having to withdraw them again for doing a quest. Ive done Craglorn mostly solo but thats just one zone, the new quests are often not in Craglorn.

I would be fine with an item that equips in my costume slot that lets me take more damage, deal less damage while gaining more XP/loot/gold for example.

And every one of these threads always goes to the same place.

"I'm too powerful because I built myself specifically to be powerful, so you need to give me harder content that matches my elite skill level, and then give me good rewards for beating it so I can get even more power so I can set myself even further above the other noobs in zone!"

It really makes me wonder what the average DPS of players on the forums is versus what it is in game. If the average DPS in game were what it was on the forums, we'd never hear any comments about failed PUGs since people would be able to DPS anything down without effort.

I get wanting more out of the story. I'm one of those people who'd love to be able to solo dungeons for the stories. Give me back the quests, get rid of the 'you need two people' mechanics like the second Direfrost plate or the pins, and just let me see the dialogue. No rewards, no bonus XP, no gold, nothing. My reward would be finally getting to see the storyline. I get that this is probably one of the points of the Companions system. But Companions won't reset the dialogue for the quests I've already done.

Also remember they had adventure zones, and they failed since people said it was too hard. Yes, now we have the benefit of CP and power creep, but there's also a decent nerf to DPS coming up in the next patch. Besides, there are enough people who need help and nobody wants to go do it - I know so many people park their characters in Vivec/Alinor/Rimmen, but how many new players in those zones can actually find people to help with the WBs? Even though there are quests to get them, I very rarely see people taking on WBs in Vvardenfell or NElsweyr, or dealing with any of the dragons outside of the one by the wayshrine. As a result, new Lv. 25 players with white gear, no sets, and no consumables are getting one shot by these, not getting help, and then think that overland is too hard. Sure, we could have the 'veteran' instance of a zone, but then that still leaves all the noobs together so they can't complete anything unless they go to the vet when they're not ready.

Mostly there's just no incentive for the devs to do that - I doubt people would want to pay for overland versions of the same zones, and that would take as much work to redo all of the overland encounters as it would be to make a new chapter. People are already complaining "is that it?" with the antiquities, and now there are more complaints about companions and how that one feature isn't worth the cost of a chapter. How would people react if ZOS came out and said "hey, $60 and you get the same game, but all we did was buff Bittergreen the Guar to be on the level of Z'Maja!"

Nice story but you have to understand that giving players an option will change nothing for players who dont change the difficulty. Every argument comes back to the point that overland difficulty is not too easy for inexperienced players, which doesnt explain why couldnt be more challenging for experienced players. Similar to dungeons and trails for example.

In the first period of the game there was no difficulty option for dungeons and trails, they were simply leveled to match the party, either to the leader or lowest level group member I dont remember exactly. Eventually ZOS recognized that there is a difference in skill level which led to dungeons and trails getting an easier version with normal mode.

Now the experienced players ask for overland content to match their skill level and its not possible? Yes, there are plenty challenges if you look for them, you can solo WBs, dragons, harrowstorms or vet dungeons but that wont change the fact that new quest lines from DLCs are boring for experienced players who have been supporting ZOS for a long time.

Dungeons and trials were much easier to give levels of difficulty because they are instanced to the group. Overland is not. The solution that works for trials will not work for overland. Splitting overland zones into normal and vet could easily make those zones feel empty.

The zones are already split and Im already not in overland. Its not a loss.

It also seem like many want a single player experience. This seems like a win for just about everyone.

When I said it would split the zones I meant it would for instance create a vet Deshaan and a normal Deshaan. The zones do instance when one instance is full another is created. That is a big difference from having different levels of zones be their own instance. Where you are doesn't matter for this discussion. What matters is dividing up the population that is there.

kargen27

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

I seriously don't get why so many people seem to get offended and feel personally attacked when someone asks for a difficulty slider.

It's because there are a lot of people here who disagree out of sheer spite or jealously. Ironically they're the same ones that will tell you "if you don't like it, don't use it" when discussing something they want in another thread. There are tons of them in real life so no surprise that there are tons of them here. The type that get angry at others' success.

Can confirm this to be the case.

When I made a thread talking about making an end game activity from main story bosses, and the issue of rewards came up there was definitely an overwhelming sentiment of resentment against endgame players from the opposing side.

It was a really annoying conversation

icapital wrote: »

I love the people in here saying bUt mUdCrAbZ gIvE nEw pLaYeRz a ChAlEnGe.

No, they really really don't. I created a brand new character on a brand spanking new account and the difficulty was laughable at best. Literally no CP and not even geared, the OVERLANDS DIFFICULTY IS A JOKE AND TAKES AWAY FROM THE IMMERSION.

Drill that into your head until you understand what the other side of the table is telling you. Some of you remember difficulty levels that no longer exist in this game. When the game first released, there was challenge in the open world. Enough people complained because they didn't even bother learning their rotations and poof, nerfed difficulty.

The final nail in the coffin on the open worlds difficulty was this failed level scaling system that addressed one thing and broke 10 others.

Those of you arguing against greater difficulty in the open world are part of the problem and why so many visit this game and promptly leave. They blame plenty of things for their lack of immersion and the janky combat where failed mechanics are called "features" as well as the ridiculous easy mode.

Don't spend an hour hyping up a quest boss to then only be face rolled in a minute.

MAKE - THE - OPEN WORLD - MORE - CHALLENGING.

Risk vs. Reward is a REAL psychological concept applies in this genre.

Make Main Story Bosses HARD!

Read your other thread and resentment of endgame players really wasn't the overlying feel of the thread. The opposition to your idea was the increased rewards you suggested. The opposition was to getting different/better rewards for doing the final boss depending on the level you choose. Much like this thread it is about not compelling people to do harder levels feeling they are missing out on better rewards. These threads always start out about fun/immersion/challenges and inevitably someone says 'oh yeah and it should give better drops'.
If it is about enjoying the game you don't need the better drops. If you insist on there being better or different drops it is about the goodies and not the difficulty. It isn't an animosity towards end game players.

I'm all for allowing players to choose a difficulty for solo instanced content. Would be fun. There should be no extra rewards attached though. Doing that only leads to player frustration. That player frustration (feeling they are not getting the good stuff) would mostly happen among newer players making it more likely they leave the game.

A more challenging open world would be great as well. Again no extra or different rewards. And any changes would need to affect the player and not the content. I suggest foods and potions that lower stats. Could be a variety of foods. One might reduce health and health regeneration. Another might slow you down to a walk only, maybe make blocking ineffective. Different level foods would be less or more severe in handicapping your character. Eat the special gold food to go in naked and blind even.

A self Nerf will never be an effective measure because it doesn’t actually solve the problem of engaging combat. The problem is not solely the stats of the player. The problem is that the enemies in general are incapable. They lack abilities, they lack tactics, they lack mechanics, and there is no hierarchy - all of them are just equally difficult.

All a self Nerf would do is make the combat tedious, not actually tough & engaging like they are in WB, Arenas, dungeons, and trials.

A self nerf is the best we could ever hope for. What you are asking for is a complete rewrite to each boss that you want changed. That is a lot of work for what would in all probability be little to no reward. They are not going to go back and rewrite mechanics in these bosses and make the quests repeatable. So we should try and get the next best thing.

And for the most part these quests are meant to take place at the beginning of the game not as end game content.

newtinmpls

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

I will admit that I find the "just gimp yourself argument" to be so disrespectful.

Well...

I'm not quite following.

Originally there were "levels" to the content, but if you weren't speed leveling, you quickly leveled out of an area. When "one tamriel" came out, the "lower level characters" got boosted - but the "strength" of the boost is geared to the unpracticed, randomly geared "newcomer".

Harder content exists in other places in the game, and as one gains skill and experience, the player will learn where those places are and then be able to gear for them.

I see the people as saying "all parts of the game should be what I enjoy" to be both disrespectful and indicative of a severe case of rose-colored-retroactive-history-revision

Iccotak

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

I seriously don't get why so many people seem to get offended and feel personally attacked when someone asks for a difficulty slider.

It's because there are a lot of people here who disagree out of sheer spite or jealously. Ironically they're the same ones that will tell you "if you don't like it, don't use it" when discussing something they want in another thread. There are tons of them in real life so no surprise that there are tons of them here. The type that get angry at others' success.

Can confirm this to be the case.

When I made a thread talking about making an end game activity from main story bosses, and the issue of rewards came up there was definitely an overwhelming sentiment of resentment against endgame players from the opposing side.

It was a really annoying conversation

icapital wrote: »

I love the people in here saying bUt mUdCrAbZ gIvE nEw pLaYeRz a ChAlEnGe.

No, they really really don't. I created a brand new character on a brand spanking new account and the difficulty was laughable at best. Literally no CP and not even geared, the OVERLANDS DIFFICULTY IS A JOKE AND TAKES AWAY FROM THE IMMERSION.

Drill that into your head until you understand what the other side of the table is telling you. Some of you remember difficulty levels that no longer exist in this game. When the game first released, there was challenge in the open world. Enough people complained because they didn't even bother learning their rotations and poof, nerfed difficulty.

The final nail in the coffin on the open worlds difficulty was this failed level scaling system that addressed one thing and broke 10 others.

Those of you arguing against greater difficulty in the open world are part of the problem and why so many visit this game and promptly leave. They blame plenty of things for their lack of immersion and the janky combat where failed mechanics are called "features" as well as the ridiculous easy mode.

Don't spend an hour hyping up a quest boss to then only be face rolled in a minute.

MAKE - THE - OPEN WORLD - MORE - CHALLENGING.

Risk vs. Reward is a REAL psychological concept applies in this genre.

Make Main Story Bosses HARD!

Read your other thread and resentment of endgame players really wasn't the overlying feel of the thread. The opposition to your idea was the increased rewards you suggested. The opposition was to getting different/better rewards for doing the final boss depending on the level you choose. Much like this thread it is about not compelling people to do harder levels feeling they are missing out on better rewards. These threads always start out about fun/immersion/challenges and inevitably someone says 'oh yeah and it should give better drops'.
If it is about enjoying the game you don't need the better drops. If you insist on there being better or different drops it is about the goodies and not the difficulty. It isn't an animosity towards end game players.

I'm all for allowing players to choose a difficulty for solo instanced content. Would be fun. There should be no extra rewards attached though. Doing that only leads to player frustration. That player frustration (feeling they are not getting the good stuff) would mostly happen among newer players making it more likely they leave the game.

A more challenging open world would be great as well. Again no extra or different rewards. And any changes would need to affect the player and not the content. I suggest foods and potions that lower stats. Could be a variety of foods. One might reduce health and health regeneration. Another might slow you down to a walk only, maybe make blocking ineffective. Different level foods would be less or more severe in handicapping your character. Eat the special gold food to go in naked and blind even.

A self Nerf will never be an effective measure because it doesn’t actually solve the problem of engaging combat. The problem is not solely the stats of the player. The problem is that the enemies in general are incapable. They lack abilities, they lack tactics, they lack mechanics, and there is no hierarchy - all of them are just equally difficult.

All a self Nerf would do is make the combat tedious, not actually tough & engaging like they are in WB, Arenas, dungeons, and trials.

A self nerf is the best we could ever hope for. What you are asking for is a complete rewrite to each boss that you want changed. That is a lot of work for what would in all probability be little to no reward. They are not going to go back and rewrite mechanics in these bosses and make the quests repeatable. So we should try and get the next best thing.

And for the most part these quests are meant to take place at the beginning of the game not as end game content.

“The next best thing” That’s been proposed would not come remotely close to solving the problem.

Heck, a self nerf while playing in the same instance as other player without the nerf would be a Terrible idea. It’s basically the same as saying “just gimp yourself” which is not an effective solution and many players have already expressed that they found that idea insulting.

I don’t want any effective solutions that are at best a Band-Aid for the problem. I want actual solutions that address the issue.

Also the original main story took over the course of the game as it was paced out as you leveled and explored.

The problem is that the world ending bosses are so incredibly weak in comparison to characters that are supposed to be weaker in the dungeons.
The lackeys in Stonethorn are stronger than the actual main antagonist.

Again I don’t think there is any reason why the story should not have any game mode that doesn’t cater to endgame players.

If you were going to market the story to the player base, then market it to all of them and not just new people getting into the game.

Iccotak

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

I seriously don't get why so many people seem to get offended and feel personally attacked when someone asks for a difficulty slider.

It's because there are a lot of people here who disagree out of sheer spite or jealously. Ironically they're the same ones that will tell you "if you don't like it, don't use it" when discussing something they want in another thread. There are tons of them in real life so no surprise that there are tons of them here. The type that get angry at others' success.

Can confirm this to be the case.

When I made a thread talking about making an end game activity from main story bosses, and the issue of rewards came up there was definitely an overwhelming sentiment of resentment against endgame players from the opposing side.

It was a really annoying conversation

icapital wrote: »

I love the people in here saying bUt mUdCrAbZ gIvE nEw pLaYeRz a ChAlEnGe.

No, they really really don't. I created a brand new character on a brand spanking new account and the difficulty was laughable at best. Literally no CP and not even geared, the OVERLANDS DIFFICULTY IS A JOKE AND TAKES AWAY FROM THE IMMERSION.

Drill that into your head until you understand what the other side of the table is telling you. Some of you remember difficulty levels that no longer exist in this game. When the game first released, there was challenge in the open world. Enough people complained because they didn't even bother learning their rotations and poof, nerfed difficulty.

The final nail in the coffin on the open worlds difficulty was this failed level scaling system that addressed one thing and broke 10 others.

Those of you arguing against greater difficulty in the open world are part of the problem and why so many visit this game and promptly leave. They blame plenty of things for their lack of immersion and the janky combat where failed mechanics are called "features" as well as the ridiculous easy mode.

Don't spend an hour hyping up a quest boss to then only be face rolled in a minute.

MAKE - THE - OPEN WORLD - MORE - CHALLENGING.

Risk vs. Reward is a REAL psychological concept applies in this genre.

Make Main Story Bosses HARD!

Read your other thread and resentment of endgame players really wasn't the overlying feel of the thread. The opposition to your idea was the increased rewards you suggested. The opposition was to getting different/better rewards for doing the final boss depending on the level you choose. Much like this thread it is about not compelling people to do harder levels feeling they are missing out on better rewards. These threads always start out about fun/immersion/challenges and inevitably someone says 'oh yeah and it should give better drops'.
If it is about enjoying the game you don't need the better drops. If you insist on there being better or different drops it is about the goodies and not the difficulty. It isn't an animosity towards end game players.

I'm all for allowing players to choose a difficulty for solo instanced content. Would be fun. There should be no extra rewards attached though. Doing that only leads to player frustration. That player frustration (feeling they are not getting the good stuff) would mostly happen among newer players making it more likely they leave the game.

A more challenging open world would be great as well. Again no extra or different rewards. And any changes would need to affect the player and not the content. I suggest foods and potions that lower stats. Could be a variety of foods. One might reduce health and health regeneration. Another might slow you down to a walk only, maybe make blocking ineffective. Different level foods would be less or more severe in handicapping your character. Eat the special gold food to go in naked and blind even.

A self Nerf will never be an effective measure because it doesn’t actually solve the problem of engaging combat. The problem is not solely the stats of the player. The problem is that the enemies in general are incapable. They lack abilities, they lack tactics, they lack mechanics, and there is no hierarchy - all of them are just equally difficult.

All a self Nerf would do is make the combat tedious, not actually tough & engaging like they are in WB, Arenas, dungeons, and trials.

A self nerf is the best we could ever hope for. What you are asking for is a complete rewrite to each boss that you want changed. That is a lot of work for what would in all probability be little to no reward. They are not going to go back and rewrite mechanics in these bosses and make the quests repeatable. So we should try and get the next best thing.

And for the most part these quests are meant to take place at the beginning of the game not as end game content.

And by the way, completely changing overland combat is what they did with one-Tamriel.

Enemies not only had better stats but they also were able to do more.

Seminolegirl1992

Starlock wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Give me an example of the loot you think veteran players want. I can promise you it doesn't drop from overland content.

Uh.... well...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/556426/how-important-is-your-character-s-appearance/p1

Considering the demographics of this forum, which leans heavily towards those who have been playing this game for years (aka, veterans), and that 71% of us said appearance is important?

.... well...

... it's not like motifs that help enhance appearance drop from overland world dailies or anything right? Nah. That's not important. No veteran players care about how they look. Nope. Nuh-uh. Just look away.

But we're not talking about dailies. We're talking about story quests, which don't drop motifs. They drop crappy armor and weapons that noone uses. Oh, and like 100-200 gold.

Iccotak

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Give me an example of the loot you think veteran players want. I can promise you it doesn't drop from overland content.

Uh.... well...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/556426/how-important-is-your-character-s-appearance/p1

Considering the demographics of this forum, which leans heavily towards those who have been playing this game for years (aka, veterans), and that 71% of us said appearance is important?

.... well...

... it's not like motifs that help enhance appearance drop from overland world dailies or anything right? Nah. That's not important. No veteran players care about how they look. Nope. Nuh-uh. Just look away.

But we're not talking about dailies. We're talking about story quests, which don't drop motifs. They drop crappy armor and weapons that noone uses. Oh, and like 100-200 gold.

To be fair the reason the stories, the main story really drop some mediocre rewards is because it’s not a challenge.

The developers assign appropriate rewards to the difficulty that you were playing.

There really isn’t any reason to give players super special or epic rewards for beating the main boss, if the main boss is super easy to beat.

If they were to add a difficulty slider, you are going to see a player base with an expectation that they were going to get an extra reward for beating it on a harder difficulty - not because they feel entitled, but because that is how the rest of the game works.

I don’t really care for the sanctimonious arguments of people trying to shame others about rewards. All activities in the game or centered around rewards.

So it doesn’t really make any sense to propose a new game mode or activity that doesn’t have an appropriate reward to its difficulty.

I believe that is part of why the developers have not implemented difficulty settings for overland and the main bosses. (they have previously discussed difficulty settings for overland) Because it is actually a complex issue that is going to need a complex solution.

That is why I dismiss the attempts at a simple solution of “self nerfs”, because it is a simple solution that doesn’t actually solve the problem.

And saying that is the best thing we can hope for seems kind of insulting to endgame players and also just kind of disheartening of the game itself - to say that the best solution I could hope for is a half measure. To me that just sounds like a failure

Iccotak

CP5 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

icapital wrote: »

Some of you remember difficulty levels that no longer exist in this game.

If the "difficulty of the game" was the only factor, you would be right.

But it's not.

It's kiting without thinking about it.
It's knowing the "tells" when the boss is gonna do something nasty (or even a random 2-hand-weilder)
It's having the right passives
Using the right skill combo with the right type of armor.

For someone new to the game, who doesn't know how to notice the tells, the red, who doesn't keep track of is their food expired and what potions are they using - it is a very different game.

And to run a long term game, ZoS can NOT make overland hard enough to crush those people, because they are the new players and the new money.

So
-play with only one hand, to represent lack of intuitive use of coordination of mouse/keyboard
-wear a mix of armor types; less than 5 of any sort; not enough of any one set to get more than 1 bonus by accident
-No improvements to armor via glyphs or crafting
-turn your combat metrics so that you Can NOT see the red
-only use one skill per actual minute of gameplay; the rest is medium attacks only (not light so no ulti regen, not heavy so no resource regen).

This is what overland is set to.
If you are playing with more skill than this, then it will not be a challenge, so IF you want a challenge THEN go to another part of the game.

Yes, I'd totally be in favor of a "difficulty slider". But there isn't one at this time.

You said it yourself in that having game knowledge makes overland easy, having challenging fights that used more engaging mecanics would both make the fights less boring for experienced players and give newer players the chance to learn how to play, the only people who suffer would be those who are half afk trying to auto-piolet through content without responding to the game. Having newer players learn those things, as well as explore provisioning, alchemy, and the like, would all be good changes. Those restrictions you listed only serve to lengthen boring fights, it doesn't matter if it takes me 3s or 10s to kill a boss if they are too busy monologuing to fight back.

And as an experienced player, I want to enjoy the vast majority of the game but can't because of how painfully dull it is, eating cardboard at least has texture, and saying to "go to another part of the game," is basically saying, "your only place is in those tiny instanced areas and the rest of the game is for others, have fun" and that's not a mentality I think will get us far.

I cannot emphasize enough how dull and boring the main story Bosses are.

I basically had next to no interest in this year’s story because of how mediocre the main story boss encounters were. I have only just recently played the “dark heart of Skyrim” - and was left with that feeling again of “that’s it?“

These fights aren’t fun, they aren’t engaging, they aren’t challenging, they’re just meh.

So yeah, telling us that the main story isn’t for us, the players that have stuck with the game and played it as it was designed to be played - that’s not going to fly.

Daemons_Bane

Malthorne wrote: »

The only players I see bringing up “rewards” or “loot” are the ones who are against the optional difficulty.

Having read more of these threads than I can put a number on, I can tell you that that is not true..

WiseSky

Iccotak wrote: »

That is why I dismiss the attempts at a simple solution of “self nerfs”, because it is a simple solution that doesn’t actually solve the problem.

So what is the current problem in your eyes?

Iccotak

WiseSky wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

That is why I dismiss the attempts at a simple solution of “self nerfs”, because it is a simple solution that doesn’t actually solve the problem.

So what is the current problem in your eyes?

The problem is not the stats, it’s the mechanics.
While stats are in important factor that should not be dismissed, it is the mechanics that determine whether or not the fight is going to be engaging.

People don’t want tedious or longer fights, they want harder and more importantly engaging fights like the ones in dungeons, arenas, and trials.
No one is asking for Dark Souls, just better design that we know ZOS is capable of.

Take PvP for example. Players are more capable which makes them more dangerous and tough.

I’m not saying that Enemies should emulate the players but they need to be more capable.

Because all of them are equally mediocre, the players themselves have a little reason to change their tactics or to actually get better at the game. The only place where they actually learn combat is in the dungeons and trials. And I think that is a big flaw.

This is what a pointed out in another thread.
Which delves into the problem of all enemies being equal.

Combat
Implement a hierarchy for enemies in Overland and Delves.

For those that played Skyrim or other single player titles you may remember how certain enemies were more of a threat than others.
There was a difference between a standard Forsworn enemy and a Briarheart. The Briarhearts were very dangerous and when you saw one you knew you were in trouble.

Same case for bandits. There’s a difference between a Bandit and a Bandit Chief or Highwayman. Has more health, armor, damage, and abilities.

A Bear or a Sabertooth tiger was more dangerous than a Bandit. Then there were Trolls, which were very dangerous.

A Pyromancer is more dangerous than a Fire Mage.

A Draugr Deathlord is more of a threat than a normal Draugr - and a Dragon Priest was more dangerous than a Deathlord.

You get the idea. Implement a hierarchy of Ranked enemies.
The higher the rank, the harder they are and the more they can do.

Example: Necromancers
- A low rank necromancer could summon one or two undead and have a couple of single target abilities.
- A high rank necromancer could summon multiple undead at a time and even a bone colossus, perhaps transform into a Bone Goliath

The second major problem in combat is the main story boss encounters.
While they may be a challenge for new players, they are mediocre and easy for people who’ve been playing the game for a long time and either dabble or consistently play endgame content.

The main story spent so long building up its villains to be a threat and it hurts when they don’t actually live up to that. It really takes the wind out of the sails.
Kills immersion or any sense of accomplishment.
Their mechanics are simple, they’re slow, they’re overly predictable, and are Not Epic.

When characters are congratulating you for saving Nirn it all just feels hollow. It feels disingenuous and patronizing.

But bosses in endgame are certainly no joke and you actually feel a sense of accomplishment when beating them.
I just want the Main Story Bosses to get the same treatment as dungeons and trials- if that means a separate mode so then new players can still have an easy basic version then fine. But give me a fight worth the wait.

ParaViking

I don't think we asked for the content to be crazy hard for everyone... Way back before One Tamriel veterans went to another plain or instance...although that was still not very hard, but harder then the vanilla game. Kick it up a few notches... Make Overland Bosses imposable to solo. Make Overland Dungeons Bosses a challenge... Make the rewards better. Purple and maybe a small chance of gold... maybe gold is pushing it... Truth is that I really don't even care about the rewards

They can do it and just add a toggle switch it the settings. It would be fun for those that want a more challenging experience.

Not everyone wants to group up. not everyone wants to waist time endlessly que'd for Vet Dungeons. If that is your thing go for it. The end game should what the player wants to make it.

Maybe I am just crazy, but I am really far too busy in the real world to put much into social aspects of the game.

crjs1

If anyone thinks ZOS are going to rework the mechanics of the many many many overland story bosses we have, they are in cloud cocku land.

Plus what do we mean by challenging? Do we mean challenging for a CP300 a CP810, a end game trial or PvP player? If ZOS did rework bosses to be a more challenging within in days the same complaints would come about them not being hard enough.

Plus when did the story just be one about the end boss? For all those people saying they can’t be bothered playing the DLC as the boss is underwhelming, is not the journey to the boss just as important? For me it the whole story that matters, the dialogue the characters, not just a final boss fight. I will jump into an arena for a good fight.

Honestly overland is fine as it is. Take a look around there are new players dying all over the place still.

Riggsy

My favorite ESO was when Craglorn was the end. It was meant as group content, but it was possible to solo if you had the skill. Truly fun. We don't have that anymore, haven't for a loooong time.

CP5

crjs1 wrote: »

If anyone thinks ZOS are going to rework the mechanics of the many many many overland story bosses we have, they are in cloud cocku land.

Plus what do we mean by challenging? Do we mean challenging for a CP300 a CP810, a end game trial or PvP player? If ZOS did rework bosses to be a more challenging within in days the same complaints would come about them not being hard enough.

Plus when did the story just be one about the end boss? For all those people saying they can’t be bothered playing the DLC as the boss is underwhelming, is not the journey to the boss just as important? For me it the whole story that matters, the dialogue the characters, not just a final boss fight. I will jump into an arena for a good fight.

Honestly overland is fine as it is. Take a look around there are new players dying all over the place still.

The journey to the end is the buildup, but just like the end of ME3 if the ending fails to stick the landing the whole thing has a lackluster memory from then on. When the final boss is about as competent as a wet cardboard cut-out then every npc reaction that "its the end of the world" and "this villain is super serious" come off as pathetic, and the cries of every npc from then on sound like they're making a mountain of an anthill, hard to invest myself in a story when I know the outcome will always be the same.

And again on new players, the game needs to be able to teach them things and push them to learn, but once they reach a certain threshold overland becomes doable without them dying all the time and they then think that is the level of skill they need for the rest of the game, which is why the dungeon finder is in the current state it's in.

Basaz

If I understand it correctly, "Overland" is basically your world map/zones. I think that content should be somewhat easy. Dungeons, raids(trials), PvP and those things are where you go to face greater challenges. Remember that just because something is easy for you, doesn't mean it applies to everyone. Inclusion > top tier sweaty grind sim for those who play more than 1 hours per day.

Yes I play more than 1 hour per day. *sweating*

WiseSky

Iccotak wrote: »

The problem is not the stats, it’s the mechanics.
While stats are in important factor that should not be dismissed, it is the mechanics that determine whether or not the fight is going to be engaging.

People don’t want tedious or longer fights, they want harder and more importantly engaging fights like the ones in dungeons, arenas, and trials.
No one is asking for Dark Souls, just better design that we know ZOS is capable of.

Take PvP for example. Players are more capable which makes them more dangerous and tough.

I’m not saying that Enemies should emulate the players but they need to be more capable.

Because all of them are equally mediocre, the players themselves have a little reason to change their tactics or to actually get better at the game. The only place where they actually learn combat is in the dungeons and trials. And I think that is a big flaw.

This is what a pointed out in another thread.

I agree with you that having more engaging fights would be better for me.

Sadly I can't say the same for when I play with my SO she likes it easy super easy, she always stands in stupid cute.

For now since we are stuck with the current way the game is being handled, we have to do with what we have.

For me, I have a specific way of playing that does not take away from the immersion of the game and makes it quite a challenge. It's RP based and I love it.

It's not the ultimate solution for everyone but it is for me I love the way I play the game.

I am looking into sharing what I know and how I play so other players can have their input but probably on the RP forums.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

And again on new players, the game needs to be able to teach them things and push them to learn, but once they reach a certain threshold overland becomes doable without them dying all the time and they then think that is the level of skill they need for the rest of the game, which is why the dungeon finder is in the current state it's in.

Not every player's end goal is vet dungeons and trials. Some players are happy just doing the story on one or a string of alts. Or roleplaying. Or crafting. Or housing.

The player will decide how they want to play. That doesn't require the game to "push them to learn". And it certainly doesn't require them to be pushed by other players who think their way to play is the only way.

alanmatillab16_ESO

newtinmpls wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Even on a level 25 in level 8 training gear you can slaughter all overland content with zero difficulty

If by "training gear" you mean a crafted set with all training (and likely glyphed up as well) then yeah, not surprised here.

I challenge you to run a level 25, with ONLY dropped gear picked up by that actual character, dropped glyphs used, no potions or poisons other than what drops to that character.

For people with no other characters, no supportive guilds or friends, and new to the game - this is how they run.

Been there done that and the ONLY encounter that was a challenge was the werewolf in the quest in Daggerfall. Even with only drops, no cp, no crafted gear, no food or potions etc etc I could ignore pretty much all mob abilities. Trying to test myself against a delve boss was an exercise in frustration, I gave up after the nth time of having a good fight with the boss and some high cp character sweeping through and one shotting everything with the inevitable and boring stabby spears. (No, im not saying they should wait for me).

The same happened when I ran through with a character, again no cp, crafted gear etc but this time with weapon skills only. Same thing: Easy.

i doubt anyone wants every bandit to be a fight akin to a Greek Legend but come on, enemies that are supposed to be the big bad guy that guards/soldiers etc can't handle and they need a hero to defeat hit like wet noodles.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

And again on new players, the game needs to be able to teach them things and push them to learn, but once they reach a certain threshold overland becomes doable without them dying all the time and they then think that is the level of skill they need for the rest of the game, which is why the dungeon finder is in the current state it's in.

Not every player's end goal is vet dungeons and trials. Some players are happy just doing the story on one or a string of alts. Or roleplaying. Or crafting. Or housing.

The player will decide how they want to play. That doesn't require the game to "push them to learn". And it certainly doesn't require them to be pushed by other players who think their way to play is the only way.

But new players need somewhere to learn rather than jumping into group content ill-prepared and dependent on other players to carry them and teach them. That is why people hate using the group finder, it is flooded with people who don't know how to actually play and end up making the content harder in many instances, Direfrost for example is infinitely harder when you try to keep an inexperienced player alive. The game can offer so much more and overland plays like a turn-based game where the ai skips every other turn leading new players into a sense that is the extent of what the game offers and they don't look any further than that.

Thechuckage

I'm of the mindset that the game should not cater to the near lowest denominator. If someone wants to advocate for a literal walking simulator, then more power to them.

In regards to a Vet overland, all for it. All these cries about how lowbies will get hammered (Oh won't someone think of the children!?!?) are disingenuous. The name itself shows it's not for newbies. Ideally, player would not be able to access without a CP account, if not an over 50 character.

Another factor is all the threads about abysmal players in dungeons. That is directly tied to an overland that does not challenge. Sure there are WB's. Clearly marked as dangerous....and confined to a small area. It does nothing at all to reinforce effective gameplay. Which in turn leads to weaker, ineffective players.

Some gentle reminders to move out of red, block attacks, how to interrupt things (had to explain that mechanic in a BC2 vet run ffs) All things that are important in a combat oriented game.

Finally, there's a lot of talk about how players would quit if it was too hard. Well the polar opposite is true. Players have quit because everything is a pure cakewalk, even without CP. All the talk about lowering the ceiling while raising the floor, well showing the floor the stairwell upwards is part of the equation.

PS - Vet lvl Craglorn has been dead and buried for some years now, it can't hurt you. [snip]

[Edited to remove Inappropriate Content]

kargen27

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

I seriously don't get why so many people seem to get offended and feel personally attacked when someone asks for a difficulty slider.

It's because there are a lot of people here who disagree out of sheer spite or jealously. Ironically they're the same ones that will tell you "if you don't like it, don't use it" when discussing something they want in another thread. There are tons of them in real life so no surprise that there are tons of them here. The type that get angry at others' success.

Can confirm this to be the case.

When I made a thread talking about making an end game activity from main story bosses, and the issue of rewards came up there was definitely an overwhelming sentiment of resentment against endgame players from the opposing side.

It was a really annoying conversation

icapital wrote: »

I love the people in here saying bUt mUdCrAbZ gIvE nEw pLaYeRz a ChAlEnGe.

No, they really really don't. I created a brand new character on a brand spanking new account and the difficulty was laughable at best. Literally no CP and not even geared, the OVERLANDS DIFFICULTY IS A JOKE AND TAKES AWAY FROM THE IMMERSION.

Drill that into your head until you understand what the other side of the table is telling you. Some of you remember difficulty levels that no longer exist in this game. When the game first released, there was challenge in the open world. Enough people complained because they didn't even bother learning their rotations and poof, nerfed difficulty.

The final nail in the coffin on the open worlds difficulty was this failed level scaling system that addressed one thing and broke 10 others.

Those of you arguing against greater difficulty in the open world are part of the problem and why so many visit this game and promptly leave. They blame plenty of things for their lack of immersion and the janky combat where failed mechanics are called "features" as well as the ridiculous easy mode.

Don't spend an hour hyping up a quest boss to then only be face rolled in a minute.

MAKE - THE - OPEN WORLD - MORE - CHALLENGING.

Risk vs. Reward is a REAL psychological concept applies in this genre.

Make Main Story Bosses HARD!

Read your other thread and resentment of endgame players really wasn't the overlying feel of the thread. The opposition to your idea was the increased rewards you suggested. The opposition was to getting different/better rewards for doing the final boss depending on the level you choose. Much like this thread it is about not compelling people to do harder levels feeling they are missing out on better rewards. These threads always start out about fun/immersion/challenges and inevitably someone says 'oh yeah and it should give better drops'.
If it is about enjoying the game you don't need the better drops. If you insist on there being better or different drops it is about the goodies and not the difficulty. It isn't an animosity towards end game players.

I'm all for allowing players to choose a difficulty for solo instanced content. Would be fun. There should be no extra rewards attached though. Doing that only leads to player frustration. That player frustration (feeling they are not getting the good stuff) would mostly happen among newer players making it more likely they leave the game.

A more challenging open world would be great as well. Again no extra or different rewards. And any changes would need to affect the player and not the content. I suggest foods and potions that lower stats. Could be a variety of foods. One might reduce health and health regeneration. Another might slow you down to a walk only, maybe make blocking ineffective. Different level foods would be less or more severe in handicapping your character. Eat the special gold food to go in naked and blind even.

A self Nerf will never be an effective measure because it doesn’t actually solve the problem of engaging combat. The problem is not solely the stats of the player. The problem is that the enemies in general are incapable. They lack abilities, they lack tactics, they lack mechanics, and there is no hierarchy - all of them are just equally difficult.

All a self Nerf would do is make the combat tedious, not actually tough & engaging like they are in WB, Arenas, dungeons, and trials.

A self nerf is the best we could ever hope for. What you are asking for is a complete rewrite to each boss that you want changed. That is a lot of work for what would in all probability be little to no reward. They are not going to go back and rewrite mechanics in these bosses and make the quests repeatable. So we should try and get the next best thing.

And for the most part these quests are meant to take place at the beginning of the game not as end game content.

“The next best thing” That’s been proposed would not come remotely close to solving the problem.

Heck, a self nerf while playing in the same instance as other player without the nerf would be a Terrible idea. It’s basically the same as saying “just gimp yourself” which is not an effective solution and many players have already expressed that they found that idea insulting.

I don’t want any effective solutions that are at best a Band-Aid for the problem. I want actual solutions that address the issue.

Also the original main story took over the course of the game as it was paced out as you leveled and explored.

The problem is that the world ending bosses are so incredibly weak in comparison to characters that are supposed to be weaker in the dungeons.
The lackeys in Stonethorn are stronger than the actual main antagonist.

Again I don’t think there is any reason why the story should not have any game mode that doesn’t cater to endgame players.

If you were going to market the story to the player base, then market it to all of them and not just new people getting into the game.

Okay there is a third and most likely option. They do nothing. They are not going to rework the mechanics of overland and quest bosses. Not worth the time for the amount of players that would utilize the change. In the all or nothing scenario you are demanding you most likely are going to get nothing.

And yes they did make changes to world bosses with One Tamriel as a part of a huge remake. The changes were for the entire game population. What you are asking is that they take on a major project for only a small percentage of the population. It wouldn't be good for the game nor would it be a good business decision. For an overland boss to be anywhere near interesting for someone that can do a vet trial it would need to be strong enough to annihilate the average players instantly. If you add better rewards to entice people to play these average players will feel compelled to try the harder content and find themselves not enjoying the game. If they try to balance the rewards so the average players don't feel compelled to do the content then those doing the content will complain that the rewards are not worth the extra effort. Look to pledges for proof of that. So if they include rewards one or both segments of the player base will be upset with the change. If they leave rewards out there is no reason to go to the vet zone other than the few that only want the better fights.

phantasmalD

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

I'm currently working on getting back into Skyrim for giggles because I had an itch to play it again- and I can guarantee if everything fell over pathetically like it does in ESO, it would not be fun *at all*.

You mean the game that lets you craft absurdly overpowered gear that allows you to one-shot anything even on legendary difficulty (including the final boss)? Which you have to actively ignore, aka 'gimp yourself' to preserve any semblance of challenge in a game that was actually heavily critized for being too casual?

What I'm trying to say is that Skyrim is not a very good example here.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

It's an rpg (role playing game).

Yes. And becoming stronger is a central part of an RPG. Becoming stronger = certain fights and enemies become less challenging.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You level up and get good gear and weapons and feel like a bad ar$3- why should you have to gimp yourself in a game to have immersive encounters

I think these are kinda contradictory statements. Like how can you feel like a bad A if everything is giving you just as much trouble at level 30 as they did at level 1.
Also, why is it not immersive to be stronger than someone else? The fact that you defeated them easily doesn't mean they are weak, you are just stronger.

CP5 wrote: »

Direfrost for example is infinitely harder when you try to keep an inexperienced player alive.

You mean that it poses a 'challenge'? 🤔
Funny that;

Iccotak wrote: »

The problem is not the stats, it’s the mechanics.
While stats are in important factor that should not be dismissed, it is the mechanics that determine whether or not the fight is going to be engaging.

Quest fights have actually been becoming more nuanced tho, no? Been a while but I'm pretty sure the Elsweyr bosses had some pretty elaborate patterns.

TheImperfect

I think a slider could help people who like it hard but I'm guessing it would probably be game breakingly hard to implement.

For me I like overland exactly as it is. I do play another game sometimes with someone who doesn't want to play ESO and this person likes games to be as challenging as possible. After playing through on hard and then super max hard we got a mod to make it double hard and in the end each fight just ended up lasting hours. A boss fight in the game lasted 8 hours once (I mean literally). Honestly it did not add anything to the enjoyment of the game, it is just tedious.