Overland is too easy!

Kiralyn2000

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Couple thoughts on this.

joseayalac wrote: »

Make it FUN please!

1) Not everyone finds "fun" in the same things.

2) Not everyone has the same goals & expectations for overland.


(for example - I'm not a "challenge" player. The more annoying parts of RPGs I've played in the past - like boss fights - are just that: annoyances, that prevent me from getting back to the story, or exploring, or whatever. Beating my head against the Cliffs Of Challenge, until I finally defeat them and stand at the top raising my hands in the air and shouting YES!... is not actually "fun" for me. So I avoid games that are focused on that type of gameplay - Souls-likes, MMO raiding & hardmodes, etc. Meanwhile, I don't expect Overland to be a challenge in the first place - I expect it to be the nice relaxing part in between the tougher areas that I do participate in. To explore, harvest, etc - not to be 'challenged.'

I can't recall a single MMO I've played where the overland-equivalent was ever "challenging" anything other than 'boring' for anyone skilled/endgame. Where people in raid gear plowed through their Daily Kill/Harvest Quests on autopilot.)

Well, vanilla WoW was my first MMO. Those first 40 levels were WAY more than challenging for me (on satellite, so ping was an added problem) with no mount, and a tight aggro radius - I used to get ambushed by mobs while in the middle of the road....

I'm actually amazed that I stuck around through Mists of Pandaria!

Yeah, I was more thinking about Burning Crusade & after - new expansion comes out, and the power of green items from the first quests was almost up to previous-expansion raid gear, to give 'weak' players a boost. Meanwhile, the first zone needed to be easy enough for general players who were just questing through, so the guys in Tier 2 raid sets (and attendant build knowledge) just ended up sleepwalking through it.

(and vanilla WoW was still easier than EQ!)

edit: but yeah - not even having a mount until level 40, and then needing 1000g to buy the 'fast' mount at 60... big part of why I don't have a lot of sympathy for the people complaining about having to train their mounts in this game.
Not that I'd say running the length of the Barrens on foot was a "challenge", but it certainly was something.

Eedat

I've been dying for the option of a more difficult overworld. The storytelling loses all immersion when all these enemies that get hyped up fall over dead in seconds while posing absolutely zero threat. You fight an actual daedric prince in his own realm and he poses absolutely zero threat and is pitifully weak. How do people not find that immersion breaking? All the 'most powerful' enemies built up in storytelling have the same power level as a trashcan.

There should be an option to increase difficulty. There is optional difficulty on all endgame PvE content. Why not overworld? Even on a level 25 in level 8 training gear you can slaughter all overland content with zero difficulty

Inb4 'just blindfold yourself' etc

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun

You can run around the overworld with no armor/accessories on whatsoever and the mobs still can't make your HP bar budge an inch. It's absurd. There's a middle ground between "God-Hard" and, "the game plays itself" but it doesn't seem like this game will ever get there. Overworld might as well be a mobile, auto-play game.

Daemons_Bane

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun wrote: »

You can run around the overworld with no armor/accessories on whatsoever and the mobs still can't make your HP bar budge an inch.

But you really gotta remember that it's only a tiny fraction of players who does that on their first character

DreamsUnderStars

Suggestions for making it harder, so that new players don't get the wrong end of stick because a handful of players think it's "too easy".

Equip gray, level 1 armour and weapons, bonus: use light armour.
Reset all your CP and don't use them.

If that is still "too easy" then rest all your skills so they are unmorphed.
If *that* is still "too easy" then don't use any skills at all and just weapon damage.

Enjoy.

WySoSirius

Solo the harrowstorms or dragons. They are overland things to do 😂😂😂

Nairinhe

Option - yes. Generally harder - no.
I still remember being sub 160CP and it hurt.
As for the option, the only thing I can think of, is some kind of personal debuff, because in this game it's your strength that gets adjusted (which is more reasonable than making separate buffed instance of the zone). And it should be forced off for group content, I think, or it would get worse than Ring of the Pale Order problem.

P. S. Mercy for the horsie!

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun

DreamsUnderStars wrote: »

If *that* is still "too easy" then don't use any skills at all and just weapon damage.

Enjoy.

Oh, I've got an even better idea. Why don't we just stand perfectly still and do nothing during combat? Or better yet, jump off a nearby cliff head-first when you get aggro.

I can't imagine why more people don't play their games like this. Sounds like a thrilling experience.

Starlock

Hmm.

The problem with creating difficult overland content is that the people that want it don't actually seem to want it. I say that based on the fact that you don't see these players regularly at the difficult overland content that already exists. Assuming there are a lot of you, I don't see a lot of you around doing the world bosses and harrowstorms.

So... where are you? Why aren't you doing this content that you say that you want? I remember running through (attempt to, anyway) some of the harrowstorms on my tank a few weeks ago and they were basically impossible to do because nobody would show up. I still remember the one I stubbornly tried to do hoping people could be bothered. They did, sort of, but we had like 4 mini bosses up at any given time and it was... awful. it was only fun for maybe the first couple minutes of "wow, I can't believe I'm managing to tank all this OK" until it became just an awful "where the bleep is everyone else please make it stop!"

newtinmpls

joseayalac wrote: »

I get that there's new players who can't even kill some of this bosses but you could make it scalable or introduce a vet overland or something.

This has been said countless times and is LOOOONG overdue!

On the one hand, I kinda get it, because I am finally "getting gud" as some would have it. And other than that crazy Guar, I can solo most of the overland bosses.

But

On the other hand, I just started playing a bit more on the "other server" (I'm mostly on NA but sometimes also play on EU) and holy crap its so much harder with not enough sets, not enough skills or mats to make my stuff blue, and not enough traits known to use any of the super crafted sets.

It's really a LOT harder that way, and gives me a LOT more sympathy for those starting folks.

A while ago someone was talking about doing dolmens with a group of "Naked Nords" and while I don't care for running around naked. But there are a lot of bits of "clothing" in game, and I also like to play with an addon that lets me change garb.
So now most of my chracters have a "street clothing only" (i.e. no armor) build (still have weapons tho) for added layers of 'challenge' and that's turning out to be more fun than I thought it would be.

newtinmpls

Eedat wrote: »

Even on a level 25 in level 8 training gear you can slaughter all overland content with zero difficulty

If by "training gear" you mean a crafted set with all training (and likely glyphed up as well) then yeah, not surprised here.

I challenge you to run a level 25, with ONLY dropped gear picked up by that actual character, dropped glyphs used, no potions or poisons other than what drops to that character.

For people with no other characters, no supportive guilds or friends, and new to the game - this is how they run.

Agenericname

newtinmpls wrote: »

joseayalac wrote: »

I get that there's new players who can't even kill some of this bosses but you could make it scalable or introduce a vet overland or something.

This has been said countless times and is LOOOONG overdue!

On the one hand, I kinda get it, because I am finally "getting gud" as some would have it. And other than that crazy Guar, I can solo most of the overland bosses.

But

On the other hand, I just started playing a bit more on the "other server" (I'm mostly on NA but sometimes also play on EU) and holy crap its so much harder with not enough sets, not enough skills or mats to make my stuff blue, and not enough traits known to use any of the super crafted sets.

It's really a LOT harder that way, and gives me a LOT more sympathy for those starting folks.

A while ago someone was talking about doing dolmens with a group of "Naked Nords" and while I don't care for running around naked. But there are a lot of bits of "clothing" in game, and I also like to play with an addon that lets me change garb.
So now most of my chracters have a "street clothing only" (i.e. no armor) build (still have weapons tho) for added layers of 'challenge' and that's turning out to be more fun than I thought it would be.

I think thats why most people are asking for an optional setting/instance. Overland is in a pretty good place for new(er) players. That part doesnt need to be adjusted.

Nairinhe

newtinmpls wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Even on a level 25 in level 8 training gear you can slaughter all overland content with zero difficulty

If by "training gear" you mean a crafted set with all training (and likely glyphed up as well) then yeah, not surprised here.

I challenge you to run a level 25, with ONLY dropped gear picked up by that actual character, dropped glyphs used, no potions or poisons other than what drops to that character.

For people with no other characters, no supportive guilds or friends, and new to the game - this is how they run.

And no CP assigned. Low-levels with CP are godlike.

LashanW

Tharonil wrote: »

Please don't make it harder. I've started a new tank character. At the moment I think twice, if I fight some rats for an ore resource. It takes way too long. My sword hits like a fresh salmon. Tanks need love too.

Use proc sets. Stats won't matter.

newtinmpls

Nairinhe wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Even on a level 25 in level 8 training gear you can slaughter all overland content with zero difficulty

If by "training gear" you mean a crafted set with all training (and likely glyphed up as well) then yeah, not surprised here.

I challenge you to run a level 25, with ONLY dropped gear picked up by that actual character, dropped glyphs used, no potions or poisons other than what drops to that character.

For people with no other characters, no supportive guilds or friends, and new to the game - this is how they run.

And no CP assigned. Low-levels with CP are godlike.

Oh you are right. I have NO CP on that server.

Cireous

Throw us a bone Rich and at least give us a Mythic item that greatly increases damage taken? Pretty please?

Faded

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

DukeCybran wrote: »

Try to withdraw your CP and to run without a set, or go to Craglorn or craft yourself a set of level 5 gear.

Gimping yourself is not the same as more difficult content unless you get a reward for it. I want to use the gear that took hours/days/weeks/months to collect. I am not withdrawing my CP every time Im doing a quest, then have to allocate them for a dungeon run and having to withdraw them again for doing a quest. Ive done Craglorn mostly solo but thats just one zone, the new quests are often not in Craglorn.

I would be fine with an item that equips in my costume slot that lets me take more damage, deal less damage while gaining more XP/loot/gold for example.

And every one of these threads always goes to the same place.

They took care of the "I don't even care about rewards just give me something with mechanics and a chance to die!" crowd with Harrowstorms. All challenge, no reward.

Iccotak

Really the issue for me comes down to the story bosses. Both the mini bosses and the final story bosses are just awful. They are clearly designed for new players.

I think it is a real shame that the main story bosses are never made challenging for end game players.

So what we get after all the buildup and all the hype is a very lackluster story boss that’s mediocre and disappointing.

The developers Hurt the game when they cater the story to one specific audience.

I want the story bosses to get the same treatment the dungeons and trials do.

Cireous

Faded wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

DukeCybran wrote: »

Try to withdraw your CP and to run without a set, or go to Craglorn or craft yourself a set of level 5 gear.

Gimping yourself is not the same as more difficult content unless you get a reward for it. I want to use the gear that took hours/days/weeks/months to collect. I am not withdrawing my CP every time Im doing a quest, then have to allocate them for a dungeon run and having to withdraw them again for doing a quest. Ive done Craglorn mostly solo but thats just one zone, the new quests are often not in Craglorn.

I would be fine with an item that equips in my costume slot that lets me take more damage, deal less damage while gaining more XP/loot/gold for example.

And every one of these threads always goes to the same place.

They took care of the "I don't even care about rewards just give me something with mechanics and a chance to die!" crowd with Harrowstorms. All challenge, no reward.

The vampire furnishing pattern is still a nice reward, however frustratingly rare it is. Also, I am totally that crowd and I love Harrowstorms. I still want the rest of the world to be just as exciting, though.

Faded

Iccotak wrote: »

Really the issue for me comes down to the story bosses. Both the mini bosses and the final story bosses are just awful. They are clearly designed for new players.

I think it is a real shame that the main story bosses are never made challenging for end game players.

So what we get after all the buildup and all the hype is a very lackluster story boss that’s mediocre and disappointing.

The developers Hurt the game when they cater the story to one specific audience.

I want the story bosses to get the same treatment the dungeons and trials do.

This seems reasonable, and not that hard to do, with instancing + a hardmode option. Can't see any downside but having to set aside resources to implement it.

Snowstrider

I wish ZOS made a unique zone like Craglorn or something new instead of the same old design

ArchMikem

coop500 wrote: »

Meanwhile...

I just hit level 50 on my char and am weak AF and it's frustrating having to struggle so much against two senche tigers. I'll get better eventually, but Overland is the LOWEST of the low content wise, we need to be able to do SOMETHING.

You've been around for ever tho?

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun

Starlock wrote: »

Hmm.

The problem with creating difficult overland content is that the people that want it don't actually seem to want it. I say that based on the fact that you don't see these players regularly at the difficult overland content that already exists. Assuming there are a lot of you, I don't see a lot of you around doing the world bosses and harrowstorms.

If I had to guess, I'd say this happens because most people don't stand in one spot and kill one mob over and over again.

But like I said, it's just a guess.

CP5

DreamsUnderStars wrote: »

Suggestions for making it harder, so that new players don't get the wrong end of stick because a handful of players think it's "too easy".

Equip gray, level 1 armour and weapons, bonus: use light armour.
Reset all your CP and don't use them.

If that is still "too easy" then rest all your skills so they are unmorphed.
If *that* is still "too easy" then don't use any skills at all and just weapon damage.

Enjoy.

And that doesn't solve the issue that overland mobs are so inept they can barely even think about attacking you, let alone posing a threat. I brought this up in another thread but vet players know how to play, and willfully ignoring that is almost painful, so when I approach a group of mobs I know what each is going to do and even in poor gear, I know how to deal with it. Intentionally making the fight take longer isn't a challenge, it's dull, oh wow, look at that 1h guy go, back-peddling from the fight just to take 20min to throw a knife that does bugger all. Battle duration =/= challenge, having enemies that require me to mentally engage with the game and pose a threat worthy of my time does.

Araneae6537

ivelbob wrote: »

Even if there was a vet overland option, that's the last thing I would want to use. Overland is for getting from point A to point B. For me, the story and fun is at those points of interest, not in the travel. I don't want to be held up by random mobs that turn into annoying battles with their stuns and ccs. In the playerbase, there are lot of different opinions about what is 'fun'

Exactly! I would rather there be fewer random mobs and overabundance of aggressive carnivores as OP is right in that it does feel like a chore or annoyance and this is supposed to be the same world the NPCs traverse and live their lives in. Overland, I’m exploring, taking in the scenery, gathering materials, or just getting from point A to point B; I don’t want that made laborious. Now what I would like to see are more dangerous enemies in specific places — ruins, delves, the places NPCs avoid with good reason. These and especially story bosses would in my opinion really benefit from scaling better, increasing in difficulty with allotted CP or something along those lines.

tomofhyrule

CP5 wrote: »

DreamsUnderStars wrote: »

Suggestions for making it harder, so that new players don't get the wrong end of stick because a handful of players think it's "too easy".

Equip gray, level 1 armour and weapons, bonus: use light armour.
Reset all your CP and don't use them.

If that is still "too easy" then rest all your skills so they are unmorphed.
If *that* is still "too easy" then don't use any skills at all and just weapon damage.

Enjoy.

And that doesn't solve the issue that overland mobs are so inept they can barely even think about attacking you, let alone posing a threat. I brought this up in another thread but vet players know how to play, and willfully ignoring that is almost painful, so when I approach a group of mobs I know what each is going to do and even in poor gear, I know how to deal with it. Intentionally making the fight take longer isn't a challenge, it's dull, oh wow, look at that 1h guy go, back-peddling from the fight just to take 20min to throw a knife that does bugger all. Battle duration =/= challenge, having enemies that require me to mentally engage with the game and pose a threat worthy of my time does.

But that's the thing - that's not asking for 'make overland harder,' that's asking for a complete, ground-up rebuild of the entire game including better enemy AI and more mechanically intense fights.

Even if we were to say that ZOS make harder overland, either as an optional vet instance or just by screwing over noobs, it would bascically be them buffing/nerfing things. They've done that - remember that for the basegame dungeons, the 'I' version was normal and the 'II' version was vet. Then they added the vet/normal of the other one later. Really, what's the difference between nFGI and vFGI (or even vFGI HM)? The enemies hit harder and have more health. That's what can be done easily.

Now newer content like vVH or the latest dungeons/trials actually do have different mechanics, and vet makes things harder by throwing in new adds or making a lot of mechanically intense things all happen at the same time - now there are concerns that the CP DPS nerf is going to make Godslayer unreachable for console groups. But this content was built for people with the current power levels, and built for having vet modes.

The stuff that was made before vet modes were a thing weren't completely remade, they were just turned into damage sponges. It's folly to think that that's not the same thing that would happen to overland. If they were going to design overland as a vet-level challenge, it'd be asking them to redesign the entire game all over again. And I don't know how much the suits would enjoy the suggestion that they forgo a chapter (or two!) to instead just remake the base game unless they were able to sell the base game (plus vet overland!) back to us for $60+. After all, that's not going to bring in new blood...

newtinmpls

Tharonil wrote: »

Please don't make it harder. I've started a new tank character. At the moment I think twice, if I fight some rats for an ore resource. It takes way too long. My sword hits like a fresh salmon. Tanks need love too.

LashanW wrote: »

Use proc sets. Stats won't matter.

For my "lowbie" EU account, with the highest character being level 35 and no CP, that's not do-able because I can't actually do the content that would earn me the proc sets. Unless they were crafted, but then I barely have 2 traits on most (not all pieces) not to mention not being able to glyph them properly.

Crazyprophet

Tbh I think it's pretty reasonable unless you have a super build. But I'm saying that as a newish player.

Faded

Cireous wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

DukeCybran wrote: »

Try to withdraw your CP and to run without a set, or go to Craglorn or craft yourself a set of level 5 gear.

Gimping yourself is not the same as more difficult content unless you get a reward for it. I want to use the gear that took hours/days/weeks/months to collect. I am not withdrawing my CP every time Im doing a quest, then have to allocate them for a dungeon run and having to withdraw them again for doing a quest. Ive done Craglorn mostly solo but thats just one zone, the new quests are often not in Craglorn.

I would be fine with an item that equips in my costume slot that lets me take more damage, deal less damage while gaining more XP/loot/gold for example.

And every one of these threads always goes to the same place.

They took care of the "I don't even care about rewards just give me something with mechanics and a chance to die!" crowd with Harrowstorms. All challenge, no reward.

The vampire furnishing pattern is still a nice reward, however frustratingly rare it is. Also, I am totally that crowd and I love Harrowstorms. I still want the rest of the world to be just as exciting, though.

I'm sincerely glad to hear that anybody thinks Harrowstorms are fun.

MasterSpatula

I am beyond thrilled that there is some content in this game where the combat is not completely unforgiving or insanely time-consuming, and I would consider ESO to be a significantly worse game if this weren't the case.

One thing, though: I don't use food for overland. Not because I'm trying to give myself more of a challenge, but because it feels like a waste. And, again, I like that.

And no, players should not be made to feel less-than by having to choose difficulty mode in the content specifically aimed at everyone. There's a place for that. The overland ain't it.