15% to 20% dps loss
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ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭@Olupajmibanan if you don’t mind me asking, what race are you in the parses above?
And also what are your weapon damage multiplier and stamina multiplier?0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »@Olupajmibanan if you don’t mind me asking, what race are you in the parses above?
And also what are your weapon damage multiplier and stamina multiplier?
High Elf for the magDK parse
Dark Elf for the stamden, stamDK and stamplar0 -
MrZeDark✭✭✭We're always hitting the bosses from the flank spot, I think the only ones we are not are the dragons, and gladly you can swap them out for the situation anyways. That's why I tried Backstabber.
Even if dragons cannot be flanked, most groups struggle with the add mechanic more than pushing a boss to flight. So backstab will still be advantageous, for some characters that push aoe for add clears.1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭
ThanksOlupajmibanan wrote: »
For the stam dk: Can you tell me the multipliers for weapon damage (sum of brutality, armour passive etc) and stamina (undaunted plus warhorn etc)?
(I could probably figure them out by assuming the build, but would prefer to know for sure).
I am intrigued by one potential alternative and need to know these to figure out the change.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 19, 2021 12:34PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Thanks
For the stam dk: Can you tell me the multipliers for weapon damage (sum of brutality, armour passive etc) and stamina (undaunted plus warhorn etc)?
(I could probably figure them out by assuming the build, but would prefer to know for sure).
I am intrigued by one potential alternative and need to know these to figure out the change.
Sorry, but it's easier for me writting down the build
7 med, full divines, 7x stamina enchant
1x Slimecraw
1x Grundwulf
5x Perfect Relequen
3x bloodthirsty jewelry, 3x 174 WD enchant
Advancing Yokeda
1x Precise Maul, Crown Lethal Poison
Advancing Yokeda
1x infused mace with poison enchant
1x infused mace with flame enchant
Perfected Blackrose
Also, for the precise WD calculation, I have:
- Barbed Trap and Flawless Dawbnbreaker on front bar
- Standard of Might, Flames of Oblivion and Molten Whip on back bar (mind the Seething Fury buff which got fixed on the PTS).
Also I forgot, Shadow Mundus and Lava-Foot food.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 19, 2021 12:51PM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Sorry, but it's easier for me writting down the build
7 med, full divines, 7x stamina enchant
1x Slimecraw
1x Grundwulf
5x Relequen
3x bloodthirsty jewelry, 3x 174 WD enchant
Advancing Yokeda
1x Precise Maul, Crown Lethal Poison
Advancing Yokeda
1x infused mace with poison enchant
1x infused mace with flame enchant
Perfected Blackrose
Also, for the precise WD calculation, I have:
- Barbed Trap and Flawless Dawbnbreaker on front bar
- Standard of Might, Flames of Oblivion and Molten Whip on back bar (mind the Seething Fury buff which got fixed on the PTS).
Thanks very much!
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Darktrox✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
The status effect duo seems very strong. I grabbed both passive CPs, one for martial status effects and one for magical status effects resulting in high burning and poisoned uptimes as well as hemorrhaging. The dummy is affected by Engulfing Flames (and you have this in trial as well) so don't be afraid of using flame damage. Actually, I noticed Burrning does often more damage than poisoned (but this because of missing Morang Tong debuff on the dummy). Also maces and the passive CP increase your total penetration meaning they affect also magical/elemental damage. My tooltip on the poison enchant and the flame enchant is exactly the same.
Slottables:
10% Single Target damage (Deadly Aim)
15% crit damage while flanking (Backstabber)
10% crit damage (don't remember the name)
10% dot damage (Thaumaturge)
Didn't you forget to turn the dummy to be attacking it from flank position?
Nope. I didnt forget of course. that and I can't slot all of that with 810cp I'm afraid. So I'm going to guess its just cp missing altho some more tests I will make, but it just seems that the vertical progression is affecting the dps as intended as by the points you're speaking its more than I can set being 810cp. I can't slot martial arts status effects power increase just with my cp as I even can't set the slottables to the max without putting some on pnetration. And those status effects surely helps a lot.Edited by Darktrox on February 19, 2021 2:33PM0 -
Darktrox✭✭✭Would really love to see a cp 0,810,1200,1800 comparison by some 90k+ master..
seeing how much vertical scaling there is estimates thrown around. some practical numbers would be very useful
This would be helpful because I THINK @Olupajmibanan and I are competing with a whole different cp lolEdited by Darktrox on February 19, 2021 2:32PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
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This would be helpful because @Olupajmibanan and I are competing with a whole different cp lol
Absolute vertical ceiling for damage is 1410 CP. You will fill all the dps related passives along with maxed 4 slottables, but you'll have no point in mitigation passives. But that doesn matter for dummy parses.
So you have max CP parses from me and 810 parses from @Darktrox . Only 0 CP are missing, but I'll leave that sort of test to someone else
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virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Didn't you forget to turn the dummy to be attacking it from flank position?
The dummies are marked so their fronts count as their flanks, or they had been a couple years ago. Hopefully that’s not bugged too...1 -
Darktrox✭✭✭All I'm seeing so far is that I will fall behind my guildies with such high cp lmao on live. The grind is real for min maxing gentleman0
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remosito✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Absolute vertical ceiling for damage is 1410 CP. You will fill all the dps related passives along with maxed 4 slottables, but you'll have no point in mitigation passives. But that doesn matter for dummy parses.
So you have max CP parses from me and 810 parses from @Darktrox . Only 0 CP are missing, but I'll leave that sort of test to someone else
most ideally would be if the different parses were by the same person using same char.
and it all neatly in one post nicely formatted.
(ppl like to exagerate or minimize how much dps increases with cp. depending what their view on new cp system is... a one stop shop post for quick linking would help a lot) (hope that makes sense)ShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
most ideally would be if the different parses were by the same person using same char.
and it all neatly in one post nicely formatted.
(ppl like to exagerate or minimize how much dps increases with cp. depending what their view on new cp system is... a one stop shop post for quick linking would help a lot) (hope that makes sense)
I see what you are hinting at but I am not a machine. I have other things to do (like prepare my characters for TBC classic which is going to get announced today 
) 0 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I see what you are hinting at but I am not a machine. I have other things to do (like prepare my characters for TBC classic which is going to get announced today )
Enjoy :-)
Hopefully somebody else will step forward and become the hero we need but dont deserve ;-)ShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)0 -
goldenarcher1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Quite a solid 4-5k nerf on pts compared to live on my orc stam DK.using exact same skills/rotation/sets which are obviously far from optimal,but shows the dps hit quite well.
Used same max health/stamina food for both tests although health is nearly 25k on pts so will maybe try a standard LA rotation with max stamina/stamina regen food to improve things.
LIVE:
PTS:
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Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Edited my previous post. Arcane = non-CP magsorc exclusive (both playstyles, shield-stacking and Matriarch, benefit from magicka only and not from spell damage).
Since Matriarch also scales with spell damage since some time, I'd say Arcane is not even preferable in that case. So only shield Magsorc. ^^Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
stefj68✭✭✭✭✭1) is it just me or axes don't add any critical damage as mentionned... all my parses does about same dps as maces
2) i have feeling that backstabber, even behind target don't works... all my parses with finesse slotted end up ahead then those with backstabber slotted... and about same with both slotted
Edited by stefj68 on February 20, 2021 3:27AM0 -
Thuragan✭✭✭
The dummies are marked so their fronts count as their flanks, or they had been a couple years ago. Hopefully that’s not bugged too...
False. Dummy front doesnt count as flank.0 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
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False. Dummy front doesnt count as flank.
It used to: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/487564/new-camouflage-hunter-bugged
In an either or statement, only one condition has to be satisfied for the statement to hold true.
And I submit it's a bug, since it was at one point implemented and is a QoL improvement. I've reported it on the PTS.Edited by virtus753 on February 20, 2021 7:31AM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Edit: Removed this theory crafting as a part of it was based on some incorrect data - hopefully I will figure out a correction and will repost once I do.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 20, 2021 11:18AM0
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ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Got to 99k with stamDK and stamwarden, just after few tries.
Got to 89k with stamplar after countless parses and build adaptations. I'd say, hope is lost for stamplar until someone posts here his 95k+ parse and shares his secret.
I'm wondering if Stamplar's (and Magplar's) issue is contributed to by two things:
1) Being heavily reliant on Jabs which is an AOE leads to worse choice having to be made with slottable CP
2) To my knowledge, Power of the Light (and the magicka version) only scales purely on max stat, and not damage as well. So it lost maybe somewhere around 30% damage from the CP change, but gained nothing back from the extra base weapon damage like ever other damage skill did. In your parse it actually looks like a dps loss to use a GCD casting this over simply casting Jabs (which would also give an extra burning light proc). To drop it from the rotation means you no longer trigger the Ult Gen passive though.
Unfortunately I can't propose any work around are alternative to alleviate these two issues.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 20, 2021 7:37AM1 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »
I'm wondering if Stamplar's (and Magplar's) issue is contributed to by two things:
1) Being heavily reliant on Jabs which is an AOE leads to worse choice having to be made with slottable CP
2) To my knowledge, Power of the Light (and the magicka version) only scales purely on max stat, and not damage as well. So it lost maybe somewhere around 30% damage from the CP change, but gained nothing back from the extra base weapon damage like ever other damage skill did. In your parse it actually looks like a dps loss to use a GCD casting this over simply casting Jabs (which would also give an extra burning light proc). To drop it from the rotation means you no longer trigger the Ult Gen passive though.
Unfortunately I can't propose any work around are alternative to alleviate these two issues.
These should be submitted also as /feedback reports on the PTS, which is their preferred way of taking our comments. I hope someone from ZOS does read these threads, but there are a lot of them.
It’s very possible they’ve overlooked what they’ve done in terms of inequitable outcomes for different classes with this new system. The second issue, the one about Power of the Light, should be an easy enough fix, I would think. It’s easy to understand how it could have escaped their attention that PotL would suffer so much because it doesn’t benefit from the stats they buffed in compensation for the ones they nerfed. I wonder how many other skills are in this boat, too. They may want to check across the board.
The first issue is the tougher one. I don’t think they’ve fully considered the effect of the CP stars they chose to keep. I don’t want to see every class reduced to copypasta in a different color, but I do want the classes to be equitable in terms of potential. Balancing that will be a lot more feasible if the CP system doesn’t put a thumb on the scale first.0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@ExistingRug61
Have you considered all critical damage modifiers such as Elemental Catalyst in your calculations? It is not present on the dummy, however you have that in a trial with nearly full uptime on all three elements. Mind that Critical damage is also subject to Marginal Utility so the more crit damage you already have, the less effective Khajit bonus is compared to alternatives.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 20, 2021 9:04AM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »
I'm wondering if Stamplar's (and Magplar's) issue is contributed to by two things:
1) Being heavily reliant on Jabs which is an AOE leads to worse choice having to be made with slottable CP
2) To my knowledge, Power of the Light (and the magicka version) only scales purely on max stat, and not damage as well. So it lost maybe somewhere around 30% damage from the CP change, but gained nothing back from the extra base weapon damage like ever other damage skill did. In your parse it actually looks like a dps loss to use a GCD casting this over simply casting Jabs (which would also give an extra burning light proc). To drop it from the rotation means you no longer trigger the Ult Gen passive though.
Unfortunately I can't propose any work around are alternative to alleviate these two issues.
I would't say so. Tried also 1-bar build without Potl and the results were the same.
The main dps difference here is pts latency and jabs. I have nearly 97% LA ratio on my stamDK and not even 80% on my stamplar. Jabs are behaving very strangely on the PTS from the mechanical standpoint and when it is your only meaningful source of damage it can make quite a big difference.1 -
ErMurazor✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Cheap?!?! thoose 150% potions have gone from 50k to 100k per piece in 2 weeks and still raising. When ppl used up their Grand Crown store scrolls which will happen fast they gonna be even higher in price.0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »@ExistingRug61
Have you considered all critical damage modifiers such as Elemental Catalyst in your calculations? It is not present on the dummy, however you have that in a trial with nearly full uptime on all three elements. Mind that Critical damage is also subject to Marginal Utility so the more crit damage you already have, the less effective Khajit bonus is compared to alternatives.
No I haven't - I was simply doing it off the conditions of the parse as the simplest thing was calculate it as a comparison to that, rather than try to include all of the effects that differ between the dummy and a real trial environment, as I don't have the knowledge to accurately do so. I also couldn't find an up to date list of what is/isn't included on the dummy, which is why I calculated values as a change from the numbers on your parse rather than try to calculate the values from scratch.
So my calculation is based on the dummy conditions of your StamDK parse, and then modified from that to calculate the equivalent result had a Khajiit been in exactly the same conditions. Applying other conditions would definitely change the result.
As you say extra critical damage being present this would lower the marginal utility for Khajiit (in the converse way to what I realised in my first edit that I had included bloodthirsty which would increase the marginal utility of Khajiit). Likewise any other factors not considered could do the same.
And even though I calculated it above, I still have the feeling there is something else I am missing or haven't considered correctly. But I figured I'd still put what I did up as the most likely way to find out an error like that is someone else with better knowledge noticing and correcting me (hence my preface about the reliability of what I was presenting).
[Edit: Upon closer inspection I know something is definitely up with my numbers - when calculating I had to assume certain crit damage additions weren't included in the "Crit Damage" stat CMX listed so I would manually include them. But there must be something up here as I can't figure out what logical combination of buffs has resulted in the 96% crit damage max your StamDK CMX parse has. But now thinking about it at the very least it should have 50% + 20% (major force) + 10% (minor force) + 10% (CP) +15% (backstab CP) + 18% (shadow) but this is 123%?? So maybe CMX isn't reporting that right? Given I was basing my marginal change off this 96% value unless I know what is included in it my numbers will be wrong. Alternatively I would need some other way to know your actual crit damage multiplier, I guess I could assume the previous and then add 10% for brittle and perhaps 9% for catalyst, not sure if there is anything else? I am going to update my previous post to be pending until I get a resolution to this source of error, rather than provide false theory]Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 20, 2021 10:45AM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I would't say so. Tried also 1-bar build without Potl and the results were the same.
The main dps difference here is pts latency and jabs. I have nearly 97% LA ratio on my stamDK and not even 80% on my stamplar. Jabs are behaving very strangely on the PTS from the mechanical standpoint and when it is your only meaningful source of damage it can make quite a big difference.
That is unfortunate - the heavy reliance on Jabs must make it difficult when its not quite right mechanically.
On the PoTL thing though, happy to defer to your actual testing vs my theorising on that one.
But even though it may still be better than a jabs cast I expect it still is a relative nerf vs what PoTL does currently on live when compared to how other skills damage has changed? Would need a live parse to compare the relative damage change in other skills to the relative damage change in PoTL to confirm though. So it could still explain why Stamplar has taken more of a hit than other classes - just means there isn't anything that can be done about it. Or there is something else entirely being missed here, but it sounds like you've tried quite a bit.0 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »On the PoTL thing though, happy to defer to your actual testing vs my theorising on that one.
But even though it may still be better than a jabs cast I expect it still is a relative nerf vs what PoTL does currently on live when compared to how other skills damage has changed? Would need a live parse to compare the relative damage change in other skills to the relative damage change in PoTL to confirm though. So it could still explain why Stamplar has taken more of a hit than other classes - just means there isn't anything that can be done about it. Or there is something else entirely being missed here, but it sounds like you've tried quite a bit.
Even if PotL isn't accounting for most of the damage loss, you're right that it will take a harder hit than other skills because of the way it scales. It feels like the devs haven't taken this into account.
Even though max stam is about the same or a bit better - I actually can get over 37k overland on an imperial, as opposed to a bit above 35k on live - the skill no longer benefits from CP the way it used to. We can buff it by 10% with Deadly Aim, but we lost both Master-at-Arms and Mighty. On my current setup that's at least 28% damage between those two stars being replaced by only 10% in CP 2.0. They gave us 1k weapon and spell damage to compensate -- which has zero impact on skills that doesn't scale with that stat at all. Depending on one's current CP on live, that could theoretically be a hit of up to 20% or so on this skill and others that scale only off of max resources. The devs need to do a sweep for skills like this to ensure everything is benefitting appropriately from the weapon/spell damage compensation.
Thank you for pointing out this issue.2 -
Zand3rs✭✭✭At 855 cp.
I can for my life not get above 75k on my stamplar on pts, doing 110 on live.
Took all dmg i could find in the tree and tried various ways around it but i guess i have not found a good solution yet.
Please share the secret
Anyhow, it sure seems like stamplars are worse than before with the new changes.
Sure its a braindead class to play but for me its easy since i am new and i rely on having fun in this game, i dont know about you all!
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