15% to 20% dps loss

Darktrox

virtus753 wrote: »

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Darktrox wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Darktrox wrote: »

I did used the flanking crit CP but I had to not slot some of them, for example max resources wsn't able for me, and all dot damage / aoe damage is barely low for me.

If I understand the math right, on a stam warden you'll want both crit stars plus Deadly Aim and Thaumaturge to buff your light attacks and spammable. The only AoE in a meta stamden rotation is Volley, which already gets buffed by Thaumaturge. Biting Aura would only buff Volley by another 10%. That won't be worth sacrificing Fighting Finesse or Backstabber to do it.

Maxing out your four active nodes plus the important passives like Tireless Discipline, Precision, and Piercing will add up. Reaching for Mighty (which requires 30 CP plus the 20 CP prereq in Battle Mastery) will increase your dps but not by all that much in the grand scheme of things.

Noted. I'm still missing those but as CP`810 I tried to slot all Crit damage I could, Im' also afraid the bleed from axe is a big cut to our dps, since I'm noticing you're very well versed on the subject, what do you think about it?

I think I'm very glad the new XP curve will let the vast majority of us get a lot more CP a lot faster! They've given us a reason to want to reach for more CP, and now they've made it reasonably accessible. I hope they keep it that way.

I was hoping we'd have valid testing numbers long before this, but with the resistance debuff bugs that hasn't been possible until today. My main concern with the axe change is that (as others pointed out back at the beginning of the PTS cycle) it seems out of line with the other weapon bonuses now, and I think all four weapons really need to offer something *comparable* to each other, even if there will always be a numerical best-in-slot for PvE.

I'll be very curious to see more parses forthcoming this week as people finally get to test.

Thank you for your insight! When you mean "out of line" does it mean it's too good or too bad? I didn't get it huh sorry.

JobooAGS

virtus753 wrote: »

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Darktrox wrote: »

I did used the flanking crit CP but I had to not slot some of them, for example max resources wsn't able for me, and all dot damage / aoe damage is barely low for me.

If I understand the math right, on a stam warden you'll want both crit stars plus Deadly Aim and Thaumaturge to buff your light attacks and spammable. The only AoE in a meta stamden rotation is Volley, which already gets buffed by Thaumaturge. Biting Aura would only buff Volley by another 10%. That won't be worth sacrificing Fighting Finesse or Backstabber to do it.

Maxing out your four active nodes plus the important passives like Tireless Discipline, Precision, and Piercing will add up. Reaching for Mighty (which requires 30 CP plus the 20 CP prereq in Battle Mastery) will increase your dps but not by all that much in the grand scheme of things.

Wait you don’t use sub assault as a stamden? Any reason?

skinnycheeks

i feel like you missed something possibly in your testing. shouldn't have dropped from 103k to 83k. i think a 10k drop is more or less what you should be looking at there.

Arjuna1696

JobooAGS wrote: »

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virtus753 wrote: »

Darktrox wrote: »

I did used the flanking crit CP but I had to not slot some of them, for example max resources wsn't able for me, and all dot damage / aoe damage is barely low for me.

If I understand the math right, on a stam warden you'll want both crit stars plus Deadly Aim and Thaumaturge to buff your light attacks and spammable. The only AoE in a meta stamden rotation is Volley, which already gets buffed by Thaumaturge. Biting Aura would only buff Volley by another 10%. That won't be worth sacrificing Fighting Finesse or Backstabber to do it.

Maxing out your four active nodes plus the important passives like Tireless Discipline, Precision, and Piercing will add up. Reaching for Mighty (which requires 30 CP plus the 20 CP prereq in Battle Mastery) will increase your dps but not by all that much in the grand scheme of things.

Wait you don’t use sub assault as a stamden? Any reason?

Seems more likely that they just forgot about it

Olupajmibanan

On live I am doing 96k with the very same build. The dps loss is not really that bad, but DK is the only class that got buffed (Burning Talons doing fire dmg) and benefits more from the Status effect chance CP.
Also, it's 1413 CP character.

I've tried also magicka templar and the dps loss is more severe there (as expected), but nothing terrific. Went from 92k (live) to 85k (PTS)

Shantu

I'm seeing precisely the same thing on my StamSorc. Despite a dozen or so attempts with different CP configurations, I go from 103k on live to 83k on the PTS.

Now granted we're having to piddle around with 810 CP (which I really don't understand the logic of that in a test environment), but still, that's a gut punch to DPS.

I don't see anything remotely entertaining about this new CP systems. But hey...as long as the devs are happy.

Darktrox

skinnycheeks wrote: »

i feel like you missed something possibly in your testing. shouldn't have dropped from 103k to 83k. i think a 10k drop is more or less what you should be looking at there.

Hi Skinny, didn't know you were in these places. Did you tested already stam parts and magicka sets? what's your opinion about it? I only got to make 92k vs 106k (cp 790) right now. 2h / Bow Stamden with all your normal setup from your videos.

SidraWillowsky

Firstmep wrote: »

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Tannus15 wrote: »

@virtus753 this setup matches my live parse better.
15k dps loss.

Blue CP: Fightning finesse, Backstabber, Deadly Aim, Untamed Aggression

mothers sorrow, perf siroria, zaan, shadow

That's fine, frankly we have had far too much dps for a while now.
We were getting close to thrassian lvls of dps without thrassian for a while now.
15k seems fair and won't really be game breaking.

My thoughts exactly... 88k is still really, really high, we're just used to these unnecessary, astronomically high DPS numbers being the norm.

colossalvoids

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

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Firstmep wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@virtus753 this setup matches my live parse better.
15k dps loss.

Blue CP: Fightning finesse, Backstabber, Deadly Aim, Untamed Aggression

mothers sorrow, perf siroria, zaan, shadow

That's fine, frankly we have had far too much dps for a while now.
We were getting close to thrassian lvls of dps without thrassian for a while now.
15k seems fair and won't really be game breaking.

My thoughts exactly... 88k is still really, really high, we're just used to these unnecessary, astronomically high DPS numbers being the norm.

Yeah, it was around that exact mark at elsweyr release if I recall correctly and we did pretty fine, vss hm's were also not a prob for people hitting less so not much changes really, dot patch and forward spoiled some people's perception but we'll do fine regardless.

robpr

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

On live I am doing 96k with the very same build. The dps loss is not really that bad, but DK is the only class that got buffed (Burning Talons doing fire dmg) and benefits more from the Status effect chance CP.
Also, it's 1413 CP character.

I've tried also magicka templar and the dps loss is more severe there (as expected), but nothing terrific. Went from 92k (live) to 85k (PTS)

Not sure what build is this, on my mDK I went from 83k to 77k on PTS using the same build (pSiro+Elfbane), seems the about right.

CleymenZero

Tannus15 wrote: »

So with the armour debuff's fixed we can start seeing the full impact of the nerfs and changes on the PTS.
Granted I'm working with 810 CP and there are probably better ways to optimise it, but on live i'm seeing 103k on my mag sorc, on PTS with a similar setup i'm looking at 83k

live:

Spoiler

pts:

Spoiler

either something is broken still, or ZoS have gone way overboard with the nerfs.
Some of the dps loss is going to come from the sustain nerfs which hit the dummy disproportionally, I expect sustain to be better in actual content, but that aside things are looking somewhat grim.

I recently did portals on vSS HM and I can tell you now that if this level of dps loss is legit and across the board, then I won't be capable of that anymore.

You're using Crushing Shock on pts vs ele weapob on live.

Not gonna close the gap entirely but definitely will close some of it...

But I do agree that a damage nerf isnclose is to unacceptable. Reducing the damage gap should be the goal without nerfing damage too much.

Olupajmibanan

robpr wrote: »

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Olupajmibanan wrote: »

On live I am doing 96k with the very same build. The dps loss is not really that bad, but DK is the only class that got buffed (Burning Talons doing fire dmg) and benefits more from the Status effect chance CP.
Also, it's 1413 CP character.

I've tried also magicka templar and the dps loss is more severe there (as expected), but nothing terrific. Went from 92k (live) to 85k (PTS)

Not sure what build is this, on my mDK I went from 83k to 77k on PTS using the same build (pSiro+Elfbane), seems the about right.

Yeah, it's Siro, Elf Bane and Ilambris. After trying few parses with Precise Inferno front bar, I returned to Charged Inferno front bar - dps is +- the same but sustain difference is huge. That's why my Burning dps is so high.

vgabor

I tested with my stamplar (~1200cp) and my live 85k dps went down to 72k on pts, which is about 15% loss. Probably could increase a bit with more optimised cp allocation, as it was first try and pretty sure it's not the most optimal, but I don't think it would be more than 1-2k difference...

Out of curiosity I tested with both shadow and warrior mundus, and they were very close. Also tested with selene vs 2x crit piece vs 2x weap dmg piece and these three variation were also very close with 2x weap dmg slightly outperforming 2x crit piece, which is kinda interesting and wondering how these variations work for other ppl?

carlos424

Firstmep wrote: »

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Tannus15 wrote: »

@virtus753 this setup matches my live parse better.
15k dps loss.

Blue CP: Fightning finesse, Backstabber, Deadly Aim, Untamed Aggression

mothers sorrow, perf siroria, zaan, shadow

That's fine, frankly we have had far too much dps for a while now.
We were getting close to thrassian lvls of dps without thrassian for a while now.
15k seems fair and won't really be game breaking.

When you factor in that they just recently added major vulnerability and brittle to the dummy, that 88k doesnt look so good anymore.

Tannus15

@CleymenZero if you scroll down the thread i did another parse with exactly the same setup as my live parse, hit 88k.

after work i did a few more parses yesterday and everything sits between 83k and 88k

with 810CP i'm missing some passives:

+520 mag - 20pts
+100 spell damage - 30pts
+60% status effect - 40pts

which from previous experience these stats should be around 3k dps?
It's also possible that the slotted CP I chose were not optimal. I considered parsing with different slotted cp to get a feel for it but didn't really have time and it's hard to really lock that down because the difference of a single change are often within the margin of error anyway.

@Firstmep dps had a massive jump on the dummy last patch because they added a bunch of buffs including major vulnerability to the 21m. For dps to drop back to this level is actually a pretty big nerf.

@preevious I wouldn't consider backstabber cheese any more than i'd consider zaan cheese. most fights you want to be behind the target to avoid cleave etc. Sure you can't use it in vSS, but you can't use Zaan either. Night blades in particular have been doing all their parses from the flanks for a while now to take advantage of their class passive, so I don't see this as any different.

Rkindaleft

For those who are comparing the parses from Elsweyr to now while they do look similar in some cases, it's still a rather big nerf because major vulnerability was still added to the dummy. It's a dps loss compared to Elsweyr patch if you're comparing numbers from then till now.

The bigger problem is that meaningful testing still can't be achieved because for some reason there is no higher CP character template on the PTS, so we don't know the ~% loss of your character at max potential.

xericdx

Everyone is comparing the live/PTS with the same sets, which makes of course perfect sense.

However, with the changes happening to crits, there is also the possibility that different sets and builds might perform better? It will not be a perfect comparison but interesting to see if some people have already theorycrafted and tested builds better adapted to the changes.

merpins

That looks about right. Before they fixed the issue, I observed just based on numbers that we should see a 5-15% dps decrease across the board with it being closer to 10% than 15%, and it being less depending on the class and build. This seems consistent with those calculations.

Firstmep

Tannus15 wrote: »

@CleymenZero if you scroll down the thread i did another parse with exactly the same setup as my live parse, hit 88k.

after work i did a few more parses yesterday and everything sits between 83k and 88k

with 810CP i'm missing some passives:

+520 mag - 20pts
+100 spell damage - 30pts
+60% status effect - 40pts

which from previous experience these stats should be around 3k dps?
It's also possible that the slotted CP I chose were not optimal. I considered parsing with different slotted cp to get a feel for it but didn't really have time and it's hard to really lock that down because the difference of a single change are often within the margin of error anyway.

@Firstmep dps had a massive jump on the dummy last patch because they added a bunch of buffs including major vulnerability to the 21m. For dps to drop back to this level is actually a pretty big nerf.

@preevious I wouldn't consider backstabber cheese any more than i'd consider zaan cheese. most fights you want to be behind the target to avoid cleave etc. Sure you can't use it in vSS, but you can't use Zaan either. Night blades in particular have been doing all their parses from the flanks for a while now to take advantage of their class passive, so I don't see this as any different.

I would wait until/if Zos can push the templates on pts to 1800, so we can get a more complete picture of where we stand in terms of max dps available.
I think 10-15k nerf is big, but it will still keep most if not all content well within the realm of possibility.
Zos is not averse to nerfing/buffing pve content, I reckon they want to see how we perform with the new cp system is a live environment, before making a ton of changes there.
Now, wether that's a good or a bad thing, wel that's debatable for sure.

Olupajmibanan

xericdx wrote: »

Everyone is comparing the live/PTS with the same sets, which makes of course perfect sense.

However, with the changes happening to crits, there is also the possibility that different sets and builds might perform better? It will not be a perfect comparison but interesting to see if some people have already theorycrafted and tested builds better adapted to the changes.

I don't see any sets outperforming Mother's Sorrow (or situationally Mechanical Acuity) anytime soon. The addition of 1000 SD along with previous huge boost to Major/Minor Courage made SD sets such as Spell Strategist or New Moon Acolyte much less effective (due to diminishing returns). Also, crit damage boosts remain unchanged (and still extremely high) so Critical chance sets are even more needed despite the nerf.

But if you really want to switch something, Thief Mundus instead of Shadow is a dps boost anytime you have Crit damage CPs, Major/Minor Force and Crit Damage debuffs (e.g. Minor Brittle).

If they don't reduce Crit damage boosts available, crit meta won't go away. That's why I love playing Elf Bane DK, to have the feeling I am not riding the crit meta train.

phantasmalD

How much do you parse for with 0CP tho?
So we can see how much the floor was brought up.

Ranger209

phantasmalD wrote: »

How much do you parse for with 0CP tho?
So we can see how much the floor was brought up.

I think this would be extremely interesting.

remosito

phantasmalD wrote: »

How much do you parse for with 0CP tho?
So we can see how much the floor was brought up.

and how much new cp system scales vertically

SidraWillowsky

Nchuleftingth wrote: »

For those who are comparing the parses from Elsweyr to now while they do look similar in some cases, it's still a rather big nerf because major vulnerability was still added to the dummy. It's a dps loss compared to Elsweyr patch if you're comparing numbers from then till now.

The bigger problem is that meaningful testing still can't be achieved because for some reason there is no higher CP character template on the PTS, so we don't know the ~% loss of your character at max potential.

A very fair point- I actually really hate that they added the major vulnerability; it results in a massive DPS increase and isn't really reflective of something that's achievable in most groups unless you want to run a handful of necros. IIRC it's the only meaningful DPS buff on the trial dummy that's class-specific.

But I digress. Even in "real world" play, DPS has increased for no apparent reason. My single-target DPS is up 5-6k on Ra Kotu in vHRC and Ozara in vSO, for example, that's with my guild running the exact same setups as before this patch (we forgot to have someone run a frost staff). I'm not sure where I'll be in U29 with 1150 CP...

I agree that it's going to be a substantial nerf for people with lower CP, however, and I don't agree with that. Someone should go into the PTS and only allocate ~500 CP to see the affect on people like that. I don't think that I have the energy after extensive and obsessive testing every patch over the past few years. I cannot bring myself to test this time.

Septimus_Magna

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

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Nchuleftingth wrote: »

For those who are comparing the parses from Elsweyr to now while they do look similar in some cases, it's still a rather big nerf because major vulnerability was still added to the dummy. It's a dps loss compared to Elsweyr patch if you're comparing numbers from then till now.

The bigger problem is that meaningful testing still can't be achieved because for some reason there is no higher CP character template on the PTS, so we don't know the ~% loss of your character at max potential.

A very fair point- I actually really hate that they added the major vulnerability; it results in a massive DPS increase and isn't really reflective of something that's achievable in most groups unless you want to run a handful of necros. IIRC it's the only meaningful DPS buff on the trial dummy that's class-specific.

But I digress. Even in "real world" play, DPS has increased for no apparent reason. My single-target DPS is up 5-6k on Ra Kotu in vHRC and Ozara in vSO, for example, that's with my guild running the exact same setups as before this patch (we forgot to have someone run a frost staff). I'm not sure where I'll be in U29 with 1150 CP...

I agree that it's going to be a substantial nerf for people with lower CP, however, and I don't agree with that. Someone should go into the PTS and only allocate ~500 CP to see the affect on people like that. I don't think that I have the energy after extensive and obsessive testing every patch over the past few years. I cannot bring myself to test this time.

Thats weird, it might be interesting to compare CMX parses on the bosses from PTS and Live. DPS on the trail dummy is lowered while it has an somewhat unrealistic 100% uptime of major vulnerability but on bosses the DPS increased.

There are new status effects like Hemorrhaging, Sundered and Overcharged but I wouldnt expect that to make up for the overall power reduction of the CP system plus give 5-6k extra single target DPS, maybe the trail dummy is still bugged?

SidraWillowsky

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

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SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Nchuleftingth wrote: »

For those who are comparing the parses from Elsweyr to now while they do look similar in some cases, it's still a rather big nerf because major vulnerability was still added to the dummy. It's a dps loss compared to Elsweyr patch if you're comparing numbers from then till now.

The bigger problem is that meaningful testing still can't be achieved because for some reason there is no higher CP character template on the PTS, so we don't know the ~% loss of your character at max potential.

A very fair point- I actually really hate that they added the major vulnerability; it results in a massive DPS increase and isn't really reflective of something that's achievable in most groups unless you want to run a handful of necros. IIRC it's the only meaningful DPS buff on the trial dummy that's class-specific.

But I digress. Even in "real world" play, DPS has increased for no apparent reason. My single-target DPS is up 5-6k on Ra Kotu in vHRC and Ozara in vSO, for example, that's with my guild running the exact same setups as before this patch (we forgot to have someone run a frost staff). I'm not sure where I'll be in U29 with 1150 CP...

I agree that it's going to be a substantial nerf for people with lower CP, however, and I don't agree with that. Someone should go into the PTS and only allocate ~500 CP to see the affect on people like that. I don't think that I have the energy after extensive and obsessive testing every patch over the past few years. I cannot bring myself to test this time.

Thats weird, it might be interesting to compare CMX parses on the bosses from PTS and Live. DPS on the trail dummy is lowered while it has an somewhat unrealistic 100% uptime of major vulnerability but on bosses the DPS increased.

There are new status effects like Hemorrhaging, Sundered and Overcharged but I wouldnt expect that to make up for the overall power reduction of the CP system plus give 5-6k extra single target DPS, maybe the trail dummy is still bugged?

Oh, the 5-6k increase is on live, not in the PTS. I've not seen non-dummy DPS data from the PTS, but that would be really interesting to see, and probably a better indicator of where DPS is at.

Septimus_Magna

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

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Septimus_Magna wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Nchuleftingth wrote: »

For those who are comparing the parses from Elsweyr to now while they do look similar in some cases, it's still a rather big nerf because major vulnerability was still added to the dummy. It's a dps loss compared to Elsweyr patch if you're comparing numbers from then till now.

The bigger problem is that meaningful testing still can't be achieved because for some reason there is no higher CP character template on the PTS, so we don't know the ~% loss of your character at max potential.

A very fair point- I actually really hate that they added the major vulnerability; it results in a massive DPS increase and isn't really reflective of something that's achievable in most groups unless you want to run a handful of necros. IIRC it's the only meaningful DPS buff on the trial dummy that's class-specific.

But I digress. Even in "real world" play, DPS has increased for no apparent reason. My single-target DPS is up 5-6k on Ra Kotu in vHRC and Ozara in vSO, for example, that's with my guild running the exact same setups as before this patch (we forgot to have someone run a frost staff). I'm not sure where I'll be in U29 with 1150 CP...

I agree that it's going to be a substantial nerf for people with lower CP, however, and I don't agree with that. Someone should go into the PTS and only allocate ~500 CP to see the affect on people like that. I don't think that I have the energy after extensive and obsessive testing every patch over the past few years. I cannot bring myself to test this time.

Thats weird, it might be interesting to compare CMX parses on the bosses from PTS and Live. DPS on the trail dummy is lowered while it has an somewhat unrealistic 100% uptime of major vulnerability but on bosses the DPS increased.

There are new status effects like Hemorrhaging, Sundered and Overcharged but I wouldnt expect that to make up for the overall power reduction of the CP system plus give 5-6k extra single target DPS, maybe the trail dummy is still bugged?

Oh, the 5-6k increase is on live, not in the PTS. I've not seen non-dummy DPS data from the PTS, but that would be really interesting to see, and probably a better indicator of where DPS is at.

Ah too bad, I thought you meant your dps in raids was higher on the pts than on live.

Olupajmibanan

StamDK is definitely not bad.

It's 2H (Maul) / DW (Mace+Mace) build.

Xuhora

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

StamDK is definitely not bad.

It's 2H (Maul) / DW (Mace+Mace) build.

what was the setup? relequen and?

Olupajmibanan

Xuhora wrote: »

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Olupajmibanan wrote: »

StamDK is definitely not bad.

It's 2H (Maul) / DW (Mace+Mace) build.

what was the setup? relequen and?

Standard setup, Rele + AY. However I didn't use Monster set, instead I equipped 1pc Slimecraw and 1pc Grundwulf (Crit chance is golden after crit nerfs and Stone Giant can't proc Selene).