15% to 20% dps loss
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Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Since they want weapon dmg to be more comparable to crit wouldn't it makes sense to try a weapon dmg build instead of crit to see if it's so..?
Weapon damage got increased by 1000 at base which means that WD from sets is much less potent now due to stat diminishing returns.
And by nerfing crit chance without nerfing critical damage, they only increased the need for crit chance sets.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 18, 2021 8:02AM2 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There are new buffs on the dummy on PTS that aren't on live, if I understood correctly?
So, all the dps comparisons are not relevant? And that means the loss is actually bigger?
The new raid dummies have 100% uptime of major vulnerability minor brittle so you cannot directly compare parses.
Parses on the PTS would be lower if you adjust for this so the dps loss is indeed higher.Edited by Septimus_Magna on February 18, 2021 12:24PMPC - EU (AD)SpoilerSeptimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
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@Darktrox
100k is entirely possible, but I am too lazy to try more.
This already incorporates my proposalsOlupajmibanan wrote: »
You should use Cutting Dive on your Warden, instead of Wrecking Blow. +2% dmg for slotting and the stacking Bleed is enough to even surpass WB damage and Empower buff. Dummy gets off-balanced periodically so if you time your rotation to refresh dots and beetles just before off-balance, and then cast as many Cutting Dives as possible during off-balance period, your dps output will be higher. Not even mentioning that as of PTS, Bleeds proc their own status effect different from that from standard physical damage
Also I think, that you will get slightly better dps output by switching Maelstrom Bow to Blackrose Dual Wield.
Will try that today and post the results.
Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 18, 2021 11:06AM2 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »
The new raid dummies have 100% uptime of major vulnerability so you cannot directly compare parses.
Parses on the PTS would be lower if you adjust for this so the dps loss is indeed higher.
I don't understand this statement. Major Vulnerability uptime on the dummy on live is 100% too. It was added along with Minor Brittle last update.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 18, 2021 11:51AM0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I don't understand this statement. Major Vulnerability uptime on the dummy on live is 100% too. It was added along with Minor Brittle last update.
My bad, I meant minor brittle.PC - EU (AD)SpoilerSeptimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »
My bad, I meant minor brittle.
Target Iron Attronach is affected by Minor Brittle as well. It was fixed in PTS patch 6.2.2. (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6976799#Comment_6976799) and when Markarth went live (live patch 6.2.5), Target Iron Attro was already correctly affected by both, Minor Brittle and Major Vulnerability.
So I still don't get what the PTS dummy has, but live dummy hasn't. Could you please elaborate?Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 18, 2021 12:28PM0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dunno how some people only lost less than 10% or even parse the same. Maybe it's just their class but I main magden and lost 15%
I was already average with my 85k and now total trash with low 70s. Also something weird is up with bloodthirsty. I only gain 2-3k on trial dummy from arcane. And infused actually beats bloodthirsty by 1-2k, wtf. Same with Siroria over false god, only 1k difference. No matter what gear, jewelery traits, mundus I used, it was always within 3-4k dps. Same with cp stars, very little difference which ones I slotted. Next patch is all about rotation I guess and which class is higher on foodchain.
Bloodthirsty still comes equal with infused at +-65% target HP, just like it used to be.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Weapon damage got increased by 1000 at base which means that WD from sets is much less potent now due to stat diminishing returns.
And by nerfing crit chance without nerfing critical damage, they only increased the need for crit chance sets.
Stat diminishing returns for spell damage? Can you explain that? Never have I heard of that before. I know damage done suffers from heavy diminishing returns, but spell damage is always static, isn't it? If I add 100 spell damage to 2000 spell damage, it will buff my ability by the same amount as if I added 100 spell damage to 5000 spell damage. Why would it not?Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
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Stat diminishing returns for spell damage? Can you explain that? Never have I heard of that before. I know damage done suffers from heavy diminishing returns, but spell damage is always static, isn't it? If I add 100 spell damage to 2000 spell damage, it will buff my ability by the same amount as if I added 100 spell damage to 5000 spell damage. Why would it not?
No, definitely not.
If you add 100 spell damage, it will increase the damage of your skills by x%
If you add another 100, it will increase the damage of your skills further, but less than the previous 100 SD.
Formula (as observed by Asayre) is
((x * 10,5 * (respective modifiers))/((maximum magicka) + (maximum spell damage) * 10,5)
x is newly added spell damage. You may also calculate damage from added magicka, however you remove the 10,5 coeficient from the nominator in that case. Note that values in the denominator are before adding x.
Shortly, the more spell damage and magicka you already have, the less bonus damage you get for increasing these stats further.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 18, 2021 12:53PM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
No, definitely not.
If you add 100 spell damage, it will increase the damage of your skills by x%
If you add another 100, it will increase the damage of your skills further, but less than the previous 100 SD.
Formula (as observed by Asayre) is
((x * 10,5 * (respective modifiers))/((maximum magicka) + (maximum spell damage) * 10,5)
x is newly added spell damage. You may also calculate damage from added magicka, however you remove the 10,5 coeficient from the nominator in that case. Note that values in the denominator are before adding x.
Shortly, the more spell damage and magicka you already have, the less bonus damage you get for increasing these stats further.
I wouldn’t call this diminishing returns, rather linear returns.
But this is because I am looking at the absolute change rather than the relative percentage change, like you are.
Ie:
Adding 100 spell damage will always add the same amount of absolute dps, say 1k or whatever, irrespective of your current spell damage and magicka. This is the definition of a linear relationship, where the output keeps increasing at the same rate relative to the input indefinitely.
But yes in relative percentage terms if your starting spell damage and magicka is already higher, this would mean starting dps is higher so the 1k extra is a lower percentage increase.
To me a diminishing return is something where the same increase leads to a lower absolute gain the more you have of it. Not many things in the game work like this, with the CP1.0 returns from cp invested being the most obvious example that has existed.2 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Addendum to the above:
While each individual damage stat ( damage + max stat, crit, crit damage) all provide linear returns with themselves, because they are multiplicative with each other this means that having a high value in one increases the relative value increasing the others, ie they aren’t linear with each other.
This is why adding the same amount of crit chance is actually now more valuable on pts than it was on live - damage and max stat received flat buffs, plus in the recent updates we have got more crit damage available with the addition of brittle etc (and I guess for any Khajiit). So 1% extra crit provides more benefit than it did a few updates ago. However balancing this is the fact that all crit chance sources were reduced, so now it’s harder to get that 1% crit. Whether or not the new lower standard set value for crit chance is worth more under these increases than the previous value was under the old conditions I am not sure and would have to calculate fully, although the results posted here by @Olupajmibanan seem to suggest it may be.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 18, 2021 1:43PM1 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
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Got to 99k with stamDK and stamwarden, just after few tries.
Got to 89k with stamplar after countless parses and build adaptations. I'd say, hope is lost for stamplar until someone posts here his 95k+ parse and shares his secret.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 18, 2021 2:55PM0 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭Foolebuilt_33 wrote: »
Thats very false low 90s with 100% uptime on vuln and brittle which is roughly a 10k increase so subtract that from what parse is to see what the numbers are pre markarth so 90s now is 80s before the addition to vuln and brittle on pts on live right now currently average is 100k+ and for classes like magsorc and magcro 107k+ stam is 110k+ where as on pts stam is low 90s with full uptime on vuln and brittle
You do know that dummy already has 100% brittle and vuln on it right?
That means, stop adding and subtracting 10k to everything, there is no difference.
So the average good player does 91-93k on the dummy so a low 90 is similar to live. I'm saying similar because I don't know if the level skill of players is comparable.
Sidenote, I hate my autocorrect who swaps correct words for crap words...0 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Target Iron Attronach is affected by Minor Brittle as well. It was fixed in PTS patch 6.2.2. (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6976799#Comment_6976799) and when Markarth went live (live patch 6.2.5), Target Iron Attro was already correctly affected by both, Minor Brittle and Major Vulnerability.
So I still don't get what the PTS dummy has, but live dummy hasn't. Could you please elaborate?
I think they weren't aware of the brittle and vuln additions to the dummy.
I don't know why this thought is out there, kept repeating it to OP. He still counts brittle as a 10k addition to a parse when 10% extra damage 60% of the time is 6% extra crit damage.
So it's like 206/200 which is a 3% damage increase in a very lazily calculated way.
That's if your consider the added damage plus the reduction in time it would then take to drop the dummy, it's probably a 5-6k increase.Edited by CleymenZero on February 18, 2021 3:12PM0 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For all you number crunchers out there with the increased spell and weapon damage at base what does this mean for abilities like Blood Frenzy and Flawless Dawnbreaker?
Are the values given by these abilities even worth it now due to diminishing returns or do they still have a place on one's skillbar?PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭CleymenZero wrote: »
I think they weren't aware of the brittle and vuln additions to the dummy.
I don't know why this thought is out there, kept repeating it to OP. He still counts brittle as a 10k addition to a parse when 10% extra crit damage 60% (crit chance) of the time is 6% extra effective crit damage.
So it's like 206/200 which is a 3% damage increase in a very lazily calculated way.
That's if your consider the added damage plus the reduction in time it would then take to drop the dummy, it's probably a 5-6k increase.
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Foolebuilt_33✭✭✭CleymenZero wrote: »
You do know that dummy already has 100% brittle and vuln on it right?
That means, stop adding and subtracting 10k to everything, there is no difference.
So the average good player does 91-93k on the dummy so a low 90 is similar to live. I'm saying similar because I don't know if the level skill of players is comparable.
Sidenote, I hate my autocorrect who swaps correct words for crap words...
Did you read what I said? I said it has 100% uptime of vuln and brittle something that wasn't there pre markarth which is why average parses went up by 10k which is why I'm saying damage is lower than it has been in a long time...0 -
Foolebuilt_33✭✭✭CleymenZero wrote: »
The common dps parse on trial Atro ils currently in the low 90s so there is little to no change.
Low 90s now is equivalent to low 80s pre markarth thats when vuln and brittle was added which is why average parses went from 90s to 100s so now with the dps nerf and people parsing low 90s with brittle and vuln (something that wasn't there pre markarth) means dps is roughly 10k lower than when elsewyr releasedEdited by Foolebuilt_33 on February 18, 2021 3:44PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »
I wouldn’t call this diminishing returns, rather linear returns.
But this is because I am looking at the absolute change rather than the relative percentage change, like you are.
Ie:
Adding 100 spell damage will always add the same amount of absolute dps, say 1k or whatever, irrespective of your current spell damage and magicka. This is the definition of a linear relationship, where the output keeps increasing at the same rate relative to the input indefinitely.
But yes in relative percentage terms if your starting spell damage and magicka is already higher, this would mean starting dps is higher so the 1k extra is a lower percentage increase.
To me a diminishing return is something where the same increase leads to a lower absolute gain the more you have of it. Not many things in the game work like this, with the CP1.0 returns from cp invested being the most obvious example that has existed.
We may look at it also alternative way (using absolute values), just a hypothetic example:
Two players,
Player A has a lot of magicka and spell damage already and is doing 40k damage with his spammable.
Player B does not have so much magicka and spell damage and is doing 30k damage with his spammable.
Player A will kill a 3M target in 75 seconds by using only his spammable.
Player B will kill a 3M target in 100 seconds by using only his spammable.
Now, both players get 1000 SD from Zenimax as a gift.
Player A will kill a 3M target in 73,17 seconds by using only his spammable.
The fight for player A is shortened by 1,83 seconds thanks to gain of 1000 SD.
Player B will kill a 3M target in 96,77 seconds by using only his spammable.
The fight for player B is shortened by 3,23 seconds thanks to gain of 1000 SD.
Both players got the very same bonus, but the bonus was more potent for the player with less magicka and spell damage.
I'd still dare to call diminishing returns, but I agree with you that it's not diminishing returns in the right sense. It's just a word game
Marginal utility might be better name for this case.
The point still stands tho, the more you have of a stat already, the less of a benefit it is to you to increase it further (provided there are viable alternatives).
Prior discussion was about SD sets VS crit sets. Due to "diminishing returns" (or "marginal utility" if you like this name better), you are better running of crit sets. Base Crit chance got nerfed (crit damage is unchanged), base SD got buffed, which makes crit sets even stronger than on live in comparison with SD sets.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 18, 2021 11:16PM0 -
Darktrox✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
@Darktrox
100k is entirely possible, but I am too lazy to try more.
This already incorporates my proposals
CP of that parse? if it's a 98k with 810cp I'll believe it. Hmmm, Idk man I kinda get better results with wrecking blow and the most optimal way is just using Cutting dive on off balance according to my past experiences and parses on Live, but I don't really got to try it best, probably helps like you mentioned but the difference shouldn't be this big.
Also Blackrose dual wield it's netting me 2 less k, perhaps I'm doing it wrong but I hella tried hehe.
BUT... I will try full cutting dive to see on the PTS as in Live didn't work for me, but logically seeing, it shouldn't increase my dps by 6k at all. So I'm expecting the difference of CP the main thing as I really feel I'm really missing some CP points with just 240.Edited by Darktrox on February 19, 2021 3:21AM1 -
Darktrox✭✭✭@Olupajmibanan Another interesting could it be... can you share what CP you're slotting? Perhaps that would help. I'm really a bit frustiared as I can't really past 93k and I'm Experienced the most with Stamden as it's what I main on live. Weird. I'm suspecting there's something around the status effects (Burning / Poison) I'm mostly missing.Edited by Darktrox on February 19, 2021 3:39AM0
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Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »
I wouldn’t call this diminishing returns, rather linear returns.
But this is because I am looking at the absolute change rather than the relative percentage change, like you are.
Ie:
Adding 100 spell damage will always add the same amount of absolute dps, say 1k or whatever, irrespective of your current spell damage and magicka. This is the definition of a linear relationship, where the output keeps increasing at the same rate relative to the input indefinitely.
But yes in relative percentage terms if your starting spell damage and magicka is already higher, this would mean starting dps is higher so the 1k extra is a lower percentage increase.
To me a diminishing return is something where the same increase leads to a lower absolute gain the more you have of it. Not many things in the game work like this, with the CP1.0 returns from cp invested being the most obvious example that has existed.
Okay, so it was just hysteria afterall, because there is no diminishing returns. It just means that 100 spell damage added to 2000 spell damage makes a bigger difference than adding it to 5000 spell damage. But it increases your output just the same, which was my point.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos2 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
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Okay, so it was just hysteria afterall, because there is no diminishing returns. It just means that 100 spell damage added to 2000 spell damage makes a bigger difference than adding it to 5000 spell damage. But it increases your output just the same, which was my point.
Yeah, sorry it's my fault. I used the wrong term.
It's Marginal Utility and not Diminishing Returns
But the point still stands. By increasing single stat, you can get to a point where alternatives would be better. E.g. when you have a lot of spell damage already, you are better off pumping crit modifiers or % damage modifier instead of another spell damage.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 19, 2021 6:46AM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Olupajmibanan Another interesting could it be... can you share what CP you're slotting? Perhaps that would help. I'm really a bit frustiared as I can't really past 93k and I'm Experienced the most with Stamden as it's what I main on live. Weird. I'm suspecting there's something around the status effects (Burning / Poison) I'm mostly missing.
The status effect duo seems very strong. I grabbed both passive CPs, one for martial status effects and one for magical status effects resulting in high burning and poisoned uptimes as well as hemorrhaging. The dummy is affected by Engulfing Flames (and you have this in trial as well) so don't be afraid of using flame damage. Actually, I noticed Burrning does often more damage than poisoned (but this because of missing Morang Tong debuff on the dummy). Also maces and the passive CP increase your total penetration meaning they affect also magical/elemental damage. My tooltip on the poison enchant and the flame enchant is exactly the same.
Slottables:
10% Single Target damage (Deadly Aim)
15% crit damage while flanking (Backstabber)
10% crit damage (don't remember the name)
10% dot damage (Thaumaturge)
Didn't you forget to turn the dummy to be attacking it from flank position?Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 19, 2021 7:02AM0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Addendum to the above:
While each individual damage stat ( damage + max stat, crit, crit damage) all provide linear returns with themselves, because they are multiplicative with each other this means that having a high value in one increases the relative value increasing the others, ie they aren’t linear with each other.
Do you know how this affects the jewelry traits? Bloodthirsty gives a high amount of weapon/spell damage for a short period so could it be beneficial to run Infused or even Robust/Arcane?PC - EU (AD)SpoilerSeptimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »
Do you know how this affects the jewelry traits? Bloodthirsty gives a high amount of weapon/spell damage for a short period so could it be beneficial to run Infused or even Robust/Arcane?
Spell damage and magicka are the same stat, so you may directly compare them.
Bloodthirsty beats Infused at around 60% of boss hp. The general rule remains unchanged, Infused is better in short fights (like solo arenas) while BT is better for long fights (like vet trials).
Arcane is definitely the worst option due to removed 20% magicka modifier from Champion system. Arcane will be useful only in non-CP PvP [Edit] and exclusively on magsorc.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 19, 2021 11:51AM3 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭Would really love to see a cp 0,810,1200,1800 comparison by some 90k+ master..
seeing how much vertical scaling there is estimates thrown around. some practical numbers would be very useful
Edited by remosito on February 19, 2021 9:10AMShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Spell damage and magicka are the same stat, so you may directly compare them.
Bloodthirsty beats Infused at around 60% of boss hp. The general rule remains unchanged, Infused is better in short fights (like solo arenas) while BT is better for long fights (like vet trials).
Arcane is definitely the worst option due to removed 20% magicka modifier from Champion system. Arcane will be useful only in non-CP PvP.
Arcane/Robust is also the worst option in nocp pvp - for the same reason it is now the worst in cp: not having the 20% modifier.
Actually there is an exception to this: if for some reason your jewellery isn’t fully upgraded. This is because arcane/robust lose less comparatively at lower quality than infused, and infused also gives less benefit if the enchant is also lower quality. From memory I think it’s somewhere around blue quality and below where this becomes the case, so it shouldn’t ever happen for any play that is at least somewhat serious.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 19, 2021 11:47AM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »
Arcane/Robust is also the worst option in nocp pvp - for the same reason it is now the worst in cp: not having the 20% modifier.
Actually there is an exception to this: if for some reason your jewellery isn’t fully upgraded. This is because arcane/robust lose less comparatively at lower quality than infused, and infused also gives less benefit if the enchant is also lower quality. From memory I think it’s somewhere around blue quality and below where this becomes the case, so it shouldn’t ever happen for any play that is at least somewhat serious.
Edited my previous post. Arcane = non-CP magsorc exclusive (both playstyles, shield-stacking and Matriarch, benefit from magicka only and not from spell damage).Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 19, 2021 11:53AM0
