[Feedback] Racial Passive update - Bosmer Stealth

Dr_Ganknstein

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Makes me wonder why they went back on the "no two races can share a passive" rule and gave Argonians back both their poison and their disease resistance. My guess is they really just don't see things the way we do and think Darloc Brae and the new CP are a good replacement.

In other news I am about to finish the essay and will post it here first to give you an opportunity to give me feedback first before I post it on the class rep forum.

Actually the Argonian Resistance passive isn't even working on PTS. Take a look at the video I posted lol

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UPDATE

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Just checked They FIXED it! Thanks ZOS

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UPDATE

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AGAIN
I was wrong I was on a wood elf and didnt realize i didnt have a tail lol

Ratzkifal

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Makes me wonder why they went back on the "no two races can share a passive" rule and gave Argonians back both their poison and their disease resistance. My guess is they really just don't see things the way we do and think Darloc Brae and the new CP are a good replacement.

In other news I am about to finish the essay and will post it here first to give you an opportunity to give me feedback first before I post it on the class rep forum.

Actually the Argonian Resistance passive isn't even working on PTS. Take a look at the video I posted lol

---

UPDATE

---

Just checked They FIXED it! Thanks ZOS

Yeah, but that is gonna be fixed eventually. They did give Argonians back their resistance officially. Still, quite strange that they did that if they aren't willing to change this for the Bosmer.

If I was wearing my tinfoil hat right now I would speculate that someone on the combat team really likes detection (for some reason) and plays Bosmer (for the looks), wearing Way of the Air and Sentry and wanted a buff to their own build (but not to their gear) and now insists on that change because Legolas has good eyesight. But I would never say that without my tinfoil hat on.

Edit: fixed the quote after it was edited.
Edit again: Apparently it wasn't fixed after all xD

BlueRaven

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Bosmer Community: many well written essays on why bosmer should be stealthy.

ZOS reply:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2KVj2vVxUs

I've gotten into contact with Nefas on discord. He said that this was the first time he heard about our issue, which is giving me hope that things might be looking up from here. He has a track record of things he notices getting nerfed/fixed by ZOS quickly (even when that wasn't always his intention). That he doesn't know about the issue is partly due to him becoming a Class rep later than Wrathstone but also means that it really is entirely possible our arguments aren't being ignored but just not being heard, which I feel is sad but at least not as disheartening.
He also said that he can't really say anything on the matter or what ZOS' thoughts on it are unless he gets a specific approval from ZOS due to the NDA, so we probably won't get any info on what happened back then.
I asked him if he needs any more info on the matter which we would then provide but he hasn't replied to that yet (not sure he will either), but he's got pretty much all the necessary info to make a solid case already anyway from my original post.

So now I am hoping he can get into contact with ZOS and explain our issue to them and why the new CP system doesn't fix it etc. before the end of the PTS cycle.

Seriously? Never heard of the issue? Just goes to show how pointless these forums have become.

I am not expecting anything to happen either. The weakest section of the eso dev team are the people in charge of combat mechanics.

QuebraRegra

ZOS, etc. not aware of the multiple threads on the OFFICIAL FORUMS?

Class reps unaware?

BlueRaven

QuebraRegra wrote: »

ZOS, etc. not aware of the multiple threads on the OFFICIAL FORUMS?

Class reps unaware?

I am both surprised and not surprised at the same time.
It’s like when you take a cynical/sarcastic take on something, only to be found out that you were exactly right.

QuebraRegra

I wonder what ZEB and Schick think about this?

BlueRaven

Well Schick left ZOS awhile ago, I believe he is developing a game for another company. I thought at the time that he was retiring, now it appears he left because of other reasons.

Makes you think.

And suddenly I wonder if my cynical/sarcastic take about zos ignoring the lore, like they did with Bosmers, was the reason why he left.

ZeroDPS

what about khajiits?

BlueRaven

ZeroDPS wrote: »

what about khajiits?

Well I think the general consensus with the people that have posted in this thread is that (stealth wise) khajiits should remain unchanged. I don’t think anyone here is upset that they have the stealth buff, just that Bosmers should have it as well.

As for kahjiits other racials, I don’t think those are widely discussed in this thread.

Ratzkifal

QuebraRegra wrote: »

ZOS, etc. not aware of the multiple threads on the OFFICIAL FORUMS?

Class reps unaware?

Some class reps, specifically the senior members do seem to be aware of it, like Masel, who spoke up about the issue. At first he said that he didn't understand how it was such a big deal to us since the overall Wrathstone change was a buff but has since also made a statement that he also thinks ZOS shouldn't have removed stealth from the Bosmer. Masel also said that they had brought it up multiple times before, together with what Nefas said this was probably in the past and not in this current PTS cycle, otherwise Nefas would have probably heard of it. Nefas also seems to be taking his feedback from discord and reddit while we have been active on the forums for the most part, so it's not that surprising.

ZOS themselves on the other hand might be very aware of it. Or they might not. We don't know that for certain and it's also not an easy question to answer since multiple people on the team can be aware but team as a whole can still not be aware.
Let's hope Nefas and the others can still get into contact with ZOS in time for those changes.
We'll know more on Monday I suppose.

Ratzkifal

ZeroDPS wrote: »

what about khajiits?

Khajiit need to keep their stealth passive and we will start complaining if ZOS removes Khajiiti stealth too or even if they just swap passives. Both races are known to be stealthy.

Otherwise they could use a buff. 12% crit damage done is still kind of weak when overall crit chance has been lowered so drastically. Back in Wrathstone they wanted to give Khajiit crit chance but then said that they couldn't because crit is too unbalanced and they need to fix that first before they can revisit that idea. They have now revisited crit chance which makes me wonder why Khajiit can't get crit chance now.

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

ZOS themselves on the other hand might be very aware of it. Or they might not.

They stated on the forum that they had heard the outcry from the players over the lore debacle (my words) before the changes made it past the first round of PTS adjustments. And the fact that they said they were looking into other avenues of stealth (for the entire player base, not Bosmer) shows that they completely missed the point of two decades of wood elf lore being trashed on a whim.

And Mr Schick left right before these changes hit the PTS. I can't imagine a true Loremaster would sign off on scrapping the whole Bosmer identity for a sketchy, buggy PvP only passive.

Just lol at the audacity of this whole business. How do things like this even happen?

QuebraRegra

BlueRaven wrote: »

Well Schick left ZOS awhile ago, I believe he is developing a game for another company. I thought at the time that he was retiring, now it appears he left because of other reasons.

Makes you think.

And suddenly I wonder if my cynical/sarcastic take about zos ignoring the lore, like they did with Bosmers, was the reason why he left.

I'm genuinely sorry to hear he left... perhaps the other game he's working on now was just a better opportunity for him I hope.

makes me wonder a little tho...

QuebraRegra

Ratzkifal wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

ZOS, etc. not aware of the multiple threads on the OFFICIAL FORUMS?

Class reps unaware?

Some class reps, specifically the senior members do seem to be aware of it, like Masel, who spoke up about the issue. At first he said that he didn't understand how it was such a big deal to us since the overall Wrathstone change was a buff but has since also made a statement that he also thinks ZOS shouldn't have removed stealth from the Bosmer. Masel also said that they had brought it up multiple times before, together with what Nefas said this was probably in the past and not in this current PTS cycle, otherwise Nefas would have probably heard of it. Nefas also seems to be taking his feedback from discord and reddit while we have been active on the forums for the most part, so it's not that surprising.

ZOS themselves on the other hand might be very aware of it. Or they might not. We don't know that for certain and it's also not an easy question to answer since multiple people on the team can be aware but team as a whole can still not be aware.
Let's hope Nefas and the others can still get into contact with ZOS in time for those changes.
We'll know more on Monday I suppose.

I live nearby, maybe I should knock on the door over in Hunt Valley and tell them about it ?

JK.

I can only think there there must be a bigger plan we are not aware off... I mean the Altmer stam thing just does not compute. Maybe it's something to do with a future for hybrids? Still kills the lore tho.

Ratzkifal

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

ZOS, etc. not aware of the multiple threads on the OFFICIAL FORUMS?

Class reps unaware?

Some class reps, specifically the senior members do seem to be aware of it, like Masel, who spoke up about the issue. At first he said that he didn't understand how it was such a big deal to us since the overall Wrathstone change was a buff but has since also made a statement that he also thinks ZOS shouldn't have removed stealth from the Bosmer. Masel also said that they had brought it up multiple times before, together with what Nefas said this was probably in the past and not in this current PTS cycle, otherwise Nefas would have probably heard of it. Nefas also seems to be taking his feedback from discord and reddit while we have been active on the forums for the most part, so it's not that surprising.

ZOS themselves on the other hand might be very aware of it. Or they might not. We don't know that for certain and it's also not an easy question to answer since multiple people on the team can be aware but team as a whole can still not be aware.
Let's hope Nefas and the others can still get into contact with ZOS in time for those changes.
We'll know more on Monday I suppose.

I live nearby, maybe I should knock on the door over in Hunt Valley and tell them about it ?

JK.

I can only think there there must be a bigger plan we are not aware off... I mean the Altmer stam thing just does not compute. Maybe it's something to do with a future for hybrids? Still kills the lore tho.

Yeah, that Altmer and Orc thing is because people keep asking for viable hybrids and ZOS completely fails to deliver on that on every front and has clearly no workable idea on how to actually make that happen.

But I am fairly sure the bigger plan we are not aware of was the CP system. And we even said that two years ago that something like that would not make us happy. At least not happy about our issue being resolved.

BlueRaven

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562719/pts-patch-notes-v6-3-4

So, no joy.

This is going live this way according to the intro to the notes.

JobooAGS

Ratzkifal wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

ZOS, etc. not aware of the multiple threads on the OFFICIAL FORUMS?

Class reps unaware?

Some class reps, specifically the senior members do seem to be aware of it, like Masel, who spoke up about the issue. At first he said that he didn't understand how it was such a big deal to us since the overall Wrathstone change was a buff but has since also made a statement that he also thinks ZOS shouldn't have removed stealth from the Bosmer. Masel also said that they had brought it up multiple times before, together with what Nefas said this was probably in the past and not in this current PTS cycle, otherwise Nefas would have probably heard of it. Nefas also seems to be taking his feedback from discord and reddit while we have been active on the forums for the most part, so it's not that surprising.

ZOS themselves on the other hand might be very aware of it. Or they might not. We don't know that for certain and it's also not an easy question to answer since multiple people on the team can be aware but team as a whole can still not be aware.
Let's hope Nefas and the others can still get into contact with ZOS in time for those changes.
We'll know more on Monday I suppose.

I live nearby, maybe I should knock on the door over in Hunt Valley and tell them about it ?

JK.

I can only think there there must be a bigger plan we are not aware off... I mean the Altmer stam thing just does not compute. Maybe it's something to do with a future for hybrids? Still kills the lore tho.

Yeah, that Altmer and Orc thing is because people keep asking for viable hybrids and ZOS completely fails to deliver on that on every front and has clearly no workable idea on how to actually make that happen.

But I am fairly sure the bigger plan we are not aware of was the CP system. And we even said that two years ago that something like that would not make us happy. At least not happy about our issue being resolved.

Imagine a player coming to this game for the lore... how fast do you think they will run?

Ratzkifal

BlueRaven wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562719/pts-patch-notes-v6-3-4

So, no joy.

This is going live this way according to the intro to the notes.

Yep, looks like it. The only thing we can hope for would be a last minute change in 6.3.5 on launch but the odds of that are very low.

All in all I think this PTS cycle has been one of the worst in a long time. They introduce changes to racial passives and break more things than they fix by doing so while ignoring the actual problems (aside from Argonian resistances and Bosmer getting any use out of Hunter's Eye in PvE).

• Redguards are completely useless
• Bretons will be weaker despite the buff they got and their resistance passive ignores the Overcharged status effect when there is no reason it should
• Argonians are still left without an identity but now also took a hit to their sustain, most likely leaving them behind Khajiit who have superior damage and sometimes even superior healing already
• Bosmer still aren't stealthy and get nothing out of their Detection
• Orcs are not BiS for stamina DPS anymore, which is kind of a big deal because that means people need to buy race change tokens
• Nords still are only good for tanking (and PvP)
• Imperials have no offensive magicka boost even though they are famous for their Battlemages
• Altmer are being more and more encouraged to use Beast Trap instead of magicka builds getting their own damaging skill source of Minor Force

At least CP2.0 is alright, but if Blackwood's balance update isn't focused on fixing the mess they've made now, then I'm not sure if this game can be taken seriously anymore.

BlueRaven

@Ratzkifal I don’t want to derail the thread, but I have not been following the changes THAT closely. If orcs are not bis for stam, what race is?

JobooAGS

BlueRaven wrote: »

@Ratzkifal I don’t want to derail the thread, but I have not been following the changes THAT closely. If orcs are not bis for stam, what race is?

Dunmer

Additinally the mag difference between dunmer and altmer is so low and dunmer have the extra stam for beast trap too, dunmer may be bis for mag too.

Ratzkifal

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

ZOS, etc. not aware of the multiple threads on the OFFICIAL FORUMS?

Class reps unaware?

Some class reps, specifically the senior members do seem to be aware of it, like Masel, who spoke up about the issue. At first he said that he didn't understand how it was such a big deal to us since the overall Wrathstone change was a buff but has since also made a statement that he also thinks ZOS shouldn't have removed stealth from the Bosmer. Masel also said that they had brought it up multiple times before, together with what Nefas said this was probably in the past and not in this current PTS cycle, otherwise Nefas would have probably heard of it. Nefas also seems to be taking his feedback from discord and reddit while we have been active on the forums for the most part, so it's not that surprising.

ZOS themselves on the other hand might be very aware of it. Or they might not. We don't know that for certain and it's also not an easy question to answer since multiple people on the team can be aware but team as a whole can still not be aware.
Let's hope Nefas and the others can still get into contact with ZOS in time for those changes.
We'll know more on Monday I suppose.

I live nearby, maybe I should knock on the door over in Hunt Valley and tell them about it ?

JK.

I can only think there there must be a bigger plan we are not aware off... I mean the Altmer stam thing just does not compute. Maybe it's something to do with a future for hybrids? Still kills the lore tho.

Yeah, that Altmer and Orc thing is because people keep asking for viable hybrids and ZOS completely fails to deliver on that on every front and has clearly no workable idea on how to actually make that happen.

But I am fairly sure the bigger plan we are not aware of was the CP system. And we even said that two years ago that something like that would not make us happy. At least not happy about our issue being resolved.

Imagine a player coming to this game for the lore... how fast do you think they will run?

Most of them never came to this game in the first place because the very idea of the Ebonheart Pact is silly. The ones that stayed are being disappointed time and time again.
Remember, (SPOILER FOR SUMMERSET AND CLOCKWORK CITY AHEAD)

the Vestige won a 1v1 against Nocturnal with no real outside help (Dawnbreaker is just a fraction of Meridia's power, you can't honestly expect to overpower a Daedric Prince with just one artifact of another). In Clockwork City Nocturnal was threatening and it took the greatest mage alive AND another capable mage to delay her enough so you could get an actual god to help you out. In Summerset Vestige go brrrrrr.

Can't talk about Elsweyr because I haven't gotten around to play it yet, because the Wrathstone change left me too burned out for it.

JobooAGS

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

ZOS, etc. not aware of the multiple threads on the OFFICIAL FORUMS?

Class reps unaware?

Some class reps, specifically the senior members do seem to be aware of it, like Masel, who spoke up about the issue. At first he said that he didn't understand how it was such a big deal to us since the overall Wrathstone change was a buff but has since also made a statement that he also thinks ZOS shouldn't have removed stealth from the Bosmer. Masel also said that they had brought it up multiple times before, together with what Nefas said this was probably in the past and not in this current PTS cycle, otherwise Nefas would have probably heard of it. Nefas also seems to be taking his feedback from discord and reddit while we have been active on the forums for the most part, so it's not that surprising.

ZOS themselves on the other hand might be very aware of it. Or they might not. We don't know that for certain and it's also not an easy question to answer since multiple people on the team can be aware but team as a whole can still not be aware.
Let's hope Nefas and the others can still get into contact with ZOS in time for those changes.
We'll know more on Monday I suppose.

I live nearby, maybe I should knock on the door over in Hunt Valley and tell them about it ?

JK.

I can only think there there must be a bigger plan we are not aware off... I mean the Altmer stam thing just does not compute. Maybe it's something to do with a future for hybrids? Still kills the lore tho.

Yeah, that Altmer and Orc thing is because people keep asking for viable hybrids and ZOS completely fails to deliver on that on every front and has clearly no workable idea on how to actually make that happen.

But I am fairly sure the bigger plan we are not aware of was the CP system. And we even said that two years ago that something like that would not make us happy. At least not happy about our issue being resolved.

Imagine a player coming to this game for the lore... how fast do you think they will run?

Most of them never came to this game in the first place because the very idea of the Ebonheart Pact is silly. The ones that stayed are being disappointed time and time again.
Remember, (SPOILER FOR SUMMERSET AND CLOCKWORK CITY AHEAD)

the Vestige won a 1v1 against Nocturnal with no real outside help (Dawnbreaker is just a fraction of Meridia's power, you can't honestly expect to overpower a Daedric Prince with just one artifact of another). In Clockwork City Nocturnal was threatening and it took the greatest mage alive AND another capable mage to delay her enough so you could get an actual god to help you out. In Summerset Vestige go brrrrrr.

Can't talk about Elsweyr because I haven't gotten around to play it yet, because the Wrathstone change left me too burned out for it.

To be fair the vestige is immortal and more daedric due to molag bal, even when we got our soul back.

Ratzkifal

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

ZOS, etc. not aware of the multiple threads on the OFFICIAL FORUMS?

Class reps unaware?

Some class reps, specifically the senior members do seem to be aware of it, like Masel, who spoke up about the issue. At first he said that he didn't understand how it was such a big deal to us since the overall Wrathstone change was a buff but has since also made a statement that he also thinks ZOS shouldn't have removed stealth from the Bosmer. Masel also said that they had brought it up multiple times before, together with what Nefas said this was probably in the past and not in this current PTS cycle, otherwise Nefas would have probably heard of it. Nefas also seems to be taking his feedback from discord and reddit while we have been active on the forums for the most part, so it's not that surprising.

ZOS themselves on the other hand might be very aware of it. Or they might not. We don't know that for certain and it's also not an easy question to answer since multiple people on the team can be aware but team as a whole can still not be aware.
Let's hope Nefas and the others can still get into contact with ZOS in time for those changes.
We'll know more on Monday I suppose.

I live nearby, maybe I should knock on the door over in Hunt Valley and tell them about it ?

JK.

I can only think there there must be a bigger plan we are not aware off... I mean the Altmer stam thing just does not compute. Maybe it's something to do with a future for hybrids? Still kills the lore tho.

Yeah, that Altmer and Orc thing is because people keep asking for viable hybrids and ZOS completely fails to deliver on that on every front and has clearly no workable idea on how to actually make that happen.

But I am fairly sure the bigger plan we are not aware of was the CP system. And we even said that two years ago that something like that would not make us happy. At least not happy about our issue being resolved.

Imagine a player coming to this game for the lore... how fast do you think they will run?

Most of them never came to this game in the first place because the very idea of the Ebonheart Pact is silly. The ones that stayed are being disappointed time and time again.
Remember, (SPOILER FOR SUMMERSET AND CLOCKWORK CITY AHEAD)

the Vestige won a 1v1 against Nocturnal with no real outside help (Dawnbreaker is just a fraction of Meridia's power, you can't honestly expect to overpower a Daedric Prince with just one artifact of another). In Clockwork City Nocturnal was threatening and it took the greatest mage alive AND another capable mage to delay her enough so you could get an actual god to help you out. In Summerset Vestige go brrrrrr.

Can't talk about Elsweyr because I haven't gotten around to play it yet, because the Wrathstone change left me too burned out for it.

To be fair the vestige is immortal and more daedric due to molag bal, even when we got our soul back.

That doesn't change much though.

The biggest argument you can make is that she wasn't physically there and needed to use an agent, despite not even being part of the Coldharbour Compact and Meridia actually being part of it, which dramatically tips the scales against Meridia.

So far I don't see anything new that was lorebreaking since Leamon Tuttle took over, which is good, but the old issues remain. The Bosmer stealth issue is just one of many, but the difference here is that they actually got that right at some point and then broke it.

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

So far I don't see anything new that was lorebreaking since Leamon Tuttle took over

Frankly, I think bringing back characters sacrificed to save the world in order to sell DLCs is the biggest lore gaffe of all. So egregious that they couldn't even retcon it. The characters basically say 'I don't know what happened or how I got here lolz but hey, let's quest!'

Then you have the issue of them ripping off ancient Akaviri banners and repurposing them as Legion Zero banners, and then trying to pass off the traitorous flags as 'Alliance banners.' So yeah. I'd say there's been plenty of lore corruption since Mr. Schick left.

BlueRaven

Jaraal wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

So far I don't see anything new that was lorebreaking since Leamon Tuttle took over

Frankly, I think bringing back characters sacrificed to save the world in order to sell DLCs is the biggest lore gaffe of all. So egregious that they couldn't even retcon it. The characters basically say 'I don't know what happened or how I got here lolz but hey, let's quest!'

Then you have the issue of them ripping off ancient Akaviri banners and repurposing them as Legion Zero banners, and then trying to pass off the traitorous flags as 'Alliance banners.' So yeah. I'd say there's been plenty of lore corruption since Mr. Schick left.

Agreed. Although I did like what they did with Darien. Introducing the prospect in wrothgar. And the book he leaves in summerset. I thought that was well done.

JobooAGS

Jaraal wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

So far I don't see anything new that was lorebreaking since Leamon Tuttle took over

Frankly, I think bringing back characters sacrificed to save the world in order to sell DLCs is the biggest lore gaffe of all. So egregious that they couldn't even retcon it. The characters basically say 'I don't know what happened or how I got here lolz but hey, let's quest!'

Then you have the issue of them ripping off ancient Akaviri banners and repurposing them as Legion Zero banners, and then trying to pass off the traitorous flags as 'Alliance banners.' So yeah. I'd say there's been plenty of lore corruption since Mr. Schick left.

Well sai and lyris being sacrificed and being brought back can be explained by a dragonbreak (which sai unknowingly explains) happening at that point. Though I sacrificed varen so this aspect had no effect on me.

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

So far I don't see anything new that was lorebreaking since Leamon Tuttle took over

Frankly, I think bringing back characters sacrificed to save the world in order to sell DLCs is the biggest lore gaffe of all. So egregious that they couldn't even retcon it. The characters basically say 'I don't know what happened or how I got here lolz but hey, let's quest!'

Then you have the issue of them ripping off ancient Akaviri banners and repurposing them as Legion Zero banners, and then trying to pass off the traitorous flags as 'Alliance banners.' So yeah. I'd say there's been plenty of lore corruption since Mr. Schick left.

I still think they will give us an answer on that eventually. It sounds like a plot point for a future story and I am pretty sure they are not going to pass up that opportunity.

The Bosmer stealth issue on the other hand seems like they are perfectly comfortable with ignoring feedback on. It kind of reminds me of the vampire change where they reversed how vampirism works only that we actually did get lore on that one, explaining why we are special snowflake vampires and not the common type we remember.
But that goes to show that in this game the combat team are the ones calling the shots.

At this point I would like to remind everyone on the Dev team (as if they are reading this lol) that this game would have flopped after release if it wasn't set in the Elder Scrolls universe and lended itself the credibility and integrity of the previous titles which helped it through the rough start.
And even now, with rampant performance issues and questionable balance decisions leading to three consecutive months of unfun gameplay time and time again, this game wouldn't be getting the patience and tolerance from its fans that it has gotten if it wasn't part of a beloved franchise.
Even if everything else about this game starts to suck, the last people that will stick around are roleplayers and lore enthusiasts. These players are the backbone of the playerbase that the Devs can fall back on and the ones you showcase when you want to tell everyone what a lovely community you have. If you make these players unhappy then you better make sure the rest of your game is properly polished, because right now it looks to me like ZOS is eroding the fundaments of their own shakey construction that is ESO.

Cundu_Ertur

*shrugs* I'm increasingly indifferent. Aloy is a better Bosmer than any Bosmer (ie actually stealthy and an archer) and now I'll be sure to have the $$$ to throw at her next game since I won't spend a penny in this one for at least the next 6 months.

BlueRaven

This was posted in the “Heavy armor is dead” thread and I thought I should repost it here as it effects stealth.

Scolopendra wrote: »

One of my biggest gripes is the glaring contradictions that arise with the "you can play whatever character you want for any content" statements and their consistent pattern of making it borderline impossible or just plain miserable for some characters to play certain types of content. For this though, I will just point out a few bits of content that are now functionally barred for heavy armor players:

1. Dark Brotherhood quests (particularly sacraments) are now nigh impossible to do without either trying them naked or spending a bunch of time and money to respect your character away from a tanking build temporarily. Sacraments are already buggy nightmares to begin with, but the hugely increased heavy armor detection range makes it impossible to escape detection.
2. Thieves Guild quests are now just laughably problematic for the same reasons, but now you get to throw patrolling, unkillable city guards into the mix as well.
3. Literally any quest that requires you to follow someone from a distance in stealth will be hit hard with this and may be impossible to complete. For example, the quest to follow a traitor/spy through Ebonheart. That quest likes to fail out if you are not within a certain precise distance range with the NPC, saying that you failed to follow him if you are too distant or he detects you and bolts if you are too close. As small as the radius is for quests like this, that massively increased detection range is most likely going to bug the quest out to the point you have to strip naked or respec to finish it.

So, to review, two entire DLC packs are functionally going to be barred from tanks and even overland quests are going to be heavily impaired because of these changes. So, which is it ZOS? Are we really allowed to play any content we want with any kind of character? Because right now, it really doesn't feel that way.

I really did not consider how the changes to heavy armor would effect stealth quests. This is something to keep in mind, even if your character only has one piece of heavy armor on, say from a monster set.

Ratzkifal

BlueRaven wrote: »

This was posted in the “Heavy armor is dead” thread and I thought I should repost it here as it effects stealth.

Scolopendra wrote: »

One of my biggest gripes is the glaring contradictions that arise with the "you can play whatever character you want for any content" statements and their consistent pattern of making it borderline impossible or just plain miserable for some characters to play certain types of content. For this though, I will just point out a few bits of content that are now functionally barred for heavy armor players:

1. Dark Brotherhood quests (particularly sacraments) are now nigh impossible to do without either trying them naked or spending a bunch of time and money to respect your character away from a tanking build temporarily. Sacraments are already buggy nightmares to begin with, but the hugely increased heavy armor detection range makes it impossible to escape detection.
2. Thieves Guild quests are now just laughably problematic for the same reasons, but now you get to throw patrolling, unkillable city guards into the mix as well.
3. Literally any quest that requires you to follow someone from a distance in stealth will be hit hard with this and may be impossible to complete. For example, the quest to follow a traitor/spy through Ebonheart. That quest likes to fail out if you are not within a certain precise distance range with the NPC, saying that you failed to follow him if you are too distant or he detects you and bolts if you are too close. As small as the radius is for quests like this, that massively increased detection range is most likely going to bug the quest out to the point you have to strip naked or respec to finish it.

So, to review, two entire DLC packs are functionally going to be barred from tanks and even overland quests are going to be heavily impaired because of these changes. So, which is it ZOS? Are we really allowed to play any content we want with any kind of character? Because right now, it really doesn't feel that way.

I really did not consider how the changes to heavy armor would effect stealth quests. This is something to keep in mind, even if your character only has one piece of heavy armor on, say from a monster set.

Yeah, the penalty isn't great. Each piece of heavy armor makes you 10% more detectable, so at 5 pieces you are 50% easier to detect. For PvP that makes sense, but it also works for NPCs which sucks. Thankfully you can still get those 3m of stealth now through CP which will help with that a bit. Something worth looking into is how those 10% are beind calculated and how they interact with those 3m. If the 3m stealth radius decreases the base value from which the 10% are calculated, as is the case with any other stat, then those 3m of stealth radius will scale up and reduce the effectiveness of the penalty. Heavy Armor Khajiits would be glad to hear that. Bosmer tanks would be even more frustrated with ZOS for getting their stealth removed though.