[Feedback] Racial Passive update - Bosmer Stealth

BlueRaven

Araneae6537 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I’m glad that Argonians got their poison resistance back, but why do Bosmer have it at all??? It is against lore, even if less flagrant than their lacking any kind of improved stealth.

Bosmers are losing poison and getting disease resistantance. Much more lore appreciate.

Oh, yes, that is better. Sorry I misread — thank you for the correction! I don’t know that there’s any precedent for them being immune to disease, but at least I am not aware of a reason they shouldn’t be.

But it baffles me that ZOS didn’t take this opportunity to return Bosmer’s stealth bonus. All of lore supports it and pretty much everyone wants it.

Well I believe they do drink fermented blood as a type of alcoholic drink, which I can't imagine to be that hygienic. Plus they do practice canabalism. I am guessing they have a pretty robust immune system. :-)

Ratzkifal

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I’m glad that Argonians got their poison resistance back, but why do Bosmer have it at all??? It is against lore, even if less flagrant than their lacking any kind of improved stealth.

Quite right, Bosmer ought not have Poison resistance. It cuts against most of the precedent set in the games.

In Morrowind: Bosmer have no Poison Resistance. Argonians have both it and Disease Resistance.

In Oblivion: Bosmer have no Poison Resistance. Argonians have both it and Disease Resistance.

In Skyrim: Things get weird and Bosmer suddenly have Poison Resistance and Disease Resistance. Argonians now only have Disease Resistance.

So it seems clear that the ESO devs never actually played any of the older ESO games and instead copied the passives from Skyrim directly. They didn't understand that those passives were aberrations from the lore rather than examples of it.

To be honest the resistance case is a weird one anyway. The reason the Bosmer joined the Dominion was because a disease ravaged their lands and the Altmer helped them through it. The speculative argument brought up previously was that carnivores have a greater amount of white blood cells on average than herbivores and Bosmer are religious carnivores, but I have no idea if that's true or not.
The poison resistance also doesn't have a lot of lore support for it because there was a case where a losing tribe of Bosmer drank poison so that the victors would poison themselves on the fallen when they would proceed with the meat mandate. Perhaps all of this needs to be taken with a grain of salt since it's both ESO lore and not previously established lore.
I'd be perfectly fine with either resistance to be honest, but Argonians need both. They have a solid case in both instances and thankfully they finally got them back together!

Now we only need to give Bosmer back their stealth and overlook that Altmer are becoming more and more stamina friendly and the lore in the racial passives is restored.

Ratzkifal

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

But why they nerf pen and movement velocity?

The orc get a buff when they deal any kind of damage they heal for more and get spell dmage too, feels kinda unfair

It's not really a nerf because Bosmer have that active all the time now, regardless if they dodgeroll or sprint. Previously you would only have that for 6 seconds before you'd have to dodgeroll again and that costs a ton of stamina. Now it's free and always active! Orcs need to sprint to be faster while Bosmer are already faster without sprinting. In order to keep up with a walking Bosmer (aside from using gap-closers) others need to sprint now and take a hit on their stamina.

The permanent penetration is also better because if it's not permanent you'll always have damage loss whenever it's not up or overpenetration (meaning damage loss). Trying to balance it just right so you no longer have overpenetration results in a big sustain cost from all that dodgerolling, which, surprise surprise, results in damage loss. Believe me, the lower value is deceptive, it's actually a buff.

Ratzkifal

BlueRaven wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I’m glad that Argonians got their poison resistance back, but why do Bosmer have it at all??? It is against lore, even if less flagrant than their lacking any kind of improved stealth.

Bosmers are losing poison and getting disease resistantance. Much more lore appreciate.

I just logged into PTS and Bosmer do actually have both resistances. That's how I read the patch notes too. Not sure why, but I am not complaining. Let's hope they are so generous with the stealth too. :P

BlueRaven

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I’m glad that Argonians got their poison resistance back, but why do Bosmer have it at all??? It is against lore, even if less flagrant than their lacking any kind of improved stealth.

Bosmers are losing poison and getting disease resistantance. Much more lore appreciate.

I just logged into PTS and Bosmer do actually have both resistances. That's how I read the patch notes too. Not sure why, but I am not complaining. Let's hope they are so generous with the stealth too. :P

Not sure if you noticed, but in the CP tree they actually have a way to increase your stealth radius by 3m in the "craft" tree. (I hate those new names, just call it thief, it's fine.) It cost 30CP to get it to 3m.

Bosmers still need that stealth bonus though.

Ratzkifal

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I’m glad that Argonians got their poison resistance back, but why do Bosmer have it at all??? It is against lore, even if less flagrant than their lacking any kind of improved stealth.

Bosmers are losing poison and getting disease resistantance. Much more lore appreciate.

I just logged into PTS and Bosmer do actually have both resistances. That's how I read the patch notes too. Not sure why, but I am not complaining. Let's hope they are so generous with the stealth too. :P

Not sure if you noticed, but in the CP tree they actually have a way to increase your stealth radius by 3m in the "craft" tree. (I hate those new names, just call it thief, it's fine.) It cost 30CP to get it to 3m.

Bosmers still need that stealth bonus though.

Yes, I have noticed and already preemptively edited the first message of the thread in response.
There is also detection in the "fitness" tree. So people who like detection, like @Machete don't need to go without detection and can still wear the same sets they always wear if we get our stealth back, as long as it is worth the CP investment to them.

I am glad they added these, but to me the issue remains with the purpose of racial passives. They are there to tell people something about their people and for Bosmer that is archery and stealth and since shoehorning people to be archers is not very fun, we should at least get some proper stealth bonus. Detection is just not backed by lore in anyway whatsoever. Not even a "what do your elven eyes see, Legolas?"

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just got onto PTS to check out the new CP system and found that "The Craft" has a star that can give you up to 3m of stealth, which is great for all the other races that want to engage with stealth, but that does not solve the core issue.

Bosmer still less stealthy than an Imperial (who actually got a buff to stealth.)


Pitiful disregard for TES lore. And my Bosmer is still handicapped by passive stealth detection giving him away in PvP.

colossalvoids

At this point can't care less, halved but permanent doesn't cut it in a slightest and more of RP flavour then a useful tool so my bosmer will be in the same position as pre wrathstone - useless. But ok for doing writs on him so at least that lmao.

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just got onto PTS to check out the new CP system and found that "The Craft" has a star that can give you up to 3m of stealth, which is great for all the other races that want to engage with stealth, but that does not solve the core issue.

Bosmer still less stealthy than an Imperial (who actually got a buff to stealth.)


Pitiful disregard for TES lore. And my Bosmer is still handicapped by passive stealth detection giving him away in PvP.

Yeah, it's quite strange, but oh well, I say let them have nice things.
Bosmer got an indirect buff to stealth with their movement speed too, but I feel it's gotta be explicit otherwise it just doesn't feel right.

nqvarihs

Ratzkifal wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

But why they nerf pen and movement velocity?

The orc get a buff when they deal any kind of damage they heal for more and get spell dmage too, feels kinda unfair

It's not really a nerf because Bosmer have that active all the time now, regardless if they dodgeroll or sprint. Previously you would only have that for 6 seconds before you'd have to dodgeroll again and that costs a ton of stamina. Now it's free and always active! Orcs need to sprint to be faster while Bosmer are already faster without sprinting. In order to keep up with a walking Bosmer (aside from using gap-closers) others need to sprint now and take a hit on their stamina.

The permanent penetration is also better because if it's not permanent you'll always have damage loss whenever it's not up or overpenetration (meaning damage loss). Trying to balance it just right so you no longer have overpenetration results in a big sustain cost from all that dodgerolling, which, surprise surprise, results in damage loss. Believe me, the lower value is deceptive, it's actually a buff.

its a nerf. even on my bosmers that i respecced to mag, i had 60%+ uptime on hunter's eye. 80%+ on stam chars (90%+ in cp / 100% wityh bow backbar). 5% speed is worthless and doesnt help with range desyncs, whereas 10% is just enough. that combined with the pen nerf means bosmer is now literally useless in pvp, one of the worst races. it was bis in its niche, and now its trash in every case.

Ratzkifal

nqvarihs wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

But why they nerf pen and movement velocity?

The orc get a buff when they deal any kind of damage they heal for more and get spell dmage too, feels kinda unfair

It's not really a nerf because Bosmer have that active all the time now, regardless if they dodgeroll or sprint. Previously you would only have that for 6 seconds before you'd have to dodgeroll again and that costs a ton of stamina. Now it's free and always active! Orcs need to sprint to be faster while Bosmer are already faster without sprinting. In order to keep up with a walking Bosmer (aside from using gap-closers) others need to sprint now and take a hit on their stamina.

The permanent penetration is also better because if it's not permanent you'll always have damage loss whenever it's not up or overpenetration (meaning damage loss). Trying to balance it just right so you no longer have overpenetration results in a big sustain cost from all that dodgerolling, which, surprise surprise, results in damage loss. Believe me, the lower value is deceptive, it's actually a buff.

its a nerf. even on my bosmers that i respecced to mag, i had 60%+ uptime on hunter's eye. 80%+ on stam chars (90%+ in cp / 100% wityh bow backbar). 5% speed is worthless and doesnt help with range desyncs, whereas 10% is just enough. that combined with the pen nerf means bosmer is now literally useless in pvp, one of the worst races. it was bis in its niche, and now its trash in every case.

I see, you are talking about PvP while I was talking about PvE. I suppose for the roly-poly builds this is a nerf, yes, but now Bosmer are open to more playstyles than just the constant dodgeroll flanking NBs which is true for PvP too.
Personally I don't like when a passive is PvP-only and that's what Hunter's Eye was before. I don't think there is such a thing as a PvE only passive but I wouldn't like that either if it existed. I think it's a change for the better.

Regardless of what anyone's view on the change is, I hope we can agree that Bosmer continues to be the most slippery race out there.

nqvarihs

Ratzkifal wrote: »

nqvarihs wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

But why they nerf pen and movement velocity?

The orc get a buff when they deal any kind of damage they heal for more and get spell dmage too, feels kinda unfair

It's not really a nerf because Bosmer have that active all the time now, regardless if they dodgeroll or sprint. Previously you would only have that for 6 seconds before you'd have to dodgeroll again and that costs a ton of stamina. Now it's free and always active! Orcs need to sprint to be faster while Bosmer are already faster without sprinting. In order to keep up with a walking Bosmer (aside from using gap-closers) others need to sprint now and take a hit on their stamina.

The permanent penetration is also better because if it's not permanent you'll always have damage loss whenever it's not up or overpenetration (meaning damage loss). Trying to balance it just right so you no longer have overpenetration results in a big sustain cost from all that dodgerolling, which, surprise surprise, results in damage loss. Believe me, the lower value is deceptive, it's actually a buff.

its a nerf. even on my bosmers that i respecced to mag, i had 60%+ uptime on hunter's eye. 80%+ on stam chars (90%+ in cp / 100% wityh bow backbar). 5% speed is worthless and doesnt help with range desyncs, whereas 10% is just enough. that combined with the pen nerf means bosmer is now literally useless in pvp, one of the worst races. it was bis in its niche, and now its trash in every case.

I see, you are talking about PvP while I was talking about PvE. I suppose for the roly-poly builds this is a nerf, yes, but now Bosmer are open to more playstyles than just the constant dodgeroll flanking NBs which is true for PvP too.
Personally I don't like when a passive is PvP-only and that's what Hunter's Eye was before. I don't think there is such a thing as a PvE only passive but I wouldn't like that either if it existed. I think it's a change for the better.

Regardless of what anyone's view on the change is, I hope we can agree that Bosmer continues to be the most slippery race out there.

not really. its now always worse than another race in pvp, not that it really matters considering how terrible pvp will be anyway. as for pve, i'll admit i don't know much (if anything at all) but im pretty sure 5% speed is useless anyway and the pen isnt useful either as everyone is already at the pen cap without effort?

im pretty sure it would be balanced with the other races even if it was simply permanent at 10% and 1500 (except for redguard & khajit).

selig_fay

I looked at the champion points and I think that Detection can help a lot in pvp. I don't mind having both bonuses, but people speak negatively about Detection and it scares me. It's not useless, it works all the time and it saves you in pvp. These 3 meters actually look like a much longer distance, but the champion points can provide a longer distance, making the bosmer a better hunter of stealthy characters.
My only complaint is that it is useless for pve. But if there are sets that will give additional bonuses in the radius of detection or detection itself added additional bonuses, maybe this would change people's opinion on this score.
I mean, it works in pve right now, but mobs don't use invisibility (I've only seen it once in the entire game, and it didn't help the mob in any way)

Ratzkifal

nqvarihs wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

nqvarihs wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

But why they nerf pen and movement velocity?

The orc get a buff when they deal any kind of damage they heal for more and get spell dmage too, feels kinda unfair

It's not really a nerf because Bosmer have that active all the time now, regardless if they dodgeroll or sprint. Previously you would only have that for 6 seconds before you'd have to dodgeroll again and that costs a ton of stamina. Now it's free and always active! Orcs need to sprint to be faster while Bosmer are already faster without sprinting. In order to keep up with a walking Bosmer (aside from using gap-closers) others need to sprint now and take a hit on their stamina.

The permanent penetration is also better because if it's not permanent you'll always have damage loss whenever it's not up or overpenetration (meaning damage loss). Trying to balance it just right so you no longer have overpenetration results in a big sustain cost from all that dodgerolling, which, surprise surprise, results in damage loss. Believe me, the lower value is deceptive, it's actually a buff.

its a nerf. even on my bosmers that i respecced to mag, i had 60%+ uptime on hunter's eye. 80%+ on stam chars (90%+ in cp / 100% wityh bow backbar). 5% speed is worthless and doesnt help with range desyncs, whereas 10% is just enough. that combined with the pen nerf means bosmer is now literally useless in pvp, one of the worst races. it was bis in its niche, and now its trash in every case.

I see, you are talking about PvP while I was talking about PvE. I suppose for the roly-poly builds this is a nerf, yes, but now Bosmer are open to more playstyles than just the constant dodgeroll flanking NBs which is true for PvP too.
Personally I don't like when a passive is PvP-only and that's what Hunter's Eye was before. I don't think there is such a thing as a PvE only passive but I wouldn't like that either if it existed. I think it's a change for the better.

Regardless of what anyone's view on the change is, I hope we can agree that Bosmer continues to be the most slippery race out there.

not really. its now always worse than another race in pvp, not that it really matters considering how terrible pvp will be anyway. as for pve, i'll admit i don't know much (if anything at all) but im pretty sure 5% speed is useless anyway and the pen isnt useful either as everyone is already at the pen cap without effort?

im pretty sure it would be balanced with the other races even if it was simply permanent at 10% and 1500 (except for redguard & khajit).

That's the thing about the pen cap, in PvE If you already got permanent penetration, you need to invest less into penetration to reach the pen cap. So you can take some CP out of the penetration star and invest them somewhere else. If the penetration bonus is not permanent, you always end up losing damage or wasting stats. I wouldn't call the 5% speed useless, but I suppose that is something that could be tested on PTS.

The main issue I have with it has always been the detection vs stealth anyway. The other concerns are about Bosmer are just not viable in optimised PvE (just like Redguards).

Ratzkifal

selig_fay wrote: »

I looked at the champion points and I think that Detection can help a lot in pvp. I don't mind having both bonuses, but people speak negatively about Detection and it scares me. It's not useless, it works all the time and it saves you in pvp. These 3 meters actually look like a much longer distance, but the champion points can provide a longer distance, making the bosmer a better hunter of stealthy characters.
My only complaint is that it is useless for pve. But if there are sets that will give additional bonuses in the radius of detection or detection itself added additional bonuses, maybe this would change people's opinion on this score.
I mean, it works in pve right now, but mobs don't use invisibility (I've only seen it once in the entire game, and it didn't help the mob in any way)

@selig_fay Detection only actually does something when there are people in hiding, but stealth is already useful when there is only NPCs around. Stealth is proactive while detection is reactive or passive - accidental, so to speak.
I do not really understand how it scares you that people are talking negatively about detection but I invite you to try and do some testing with it. Every character has, if I remember correctly, 6 meters of detection at base and Bosmer have 9. Detection potions give 20meters. The increase in area from 6 to 9 is rather tiny and it also isn't exactly a circle either, so people sneaking up on you from behind still don't get spotted. Melee range is 7 meters and detection doesn't even affect properly invisible enemies like Cloaked Nightblades at 9m so you are well within their melee range before you spot them at 3m distance due to the buggy nature of the detection passive. And even at 3m distance when you finally spot them, you still cannot attack them with targetted abilities because they automatically dodge unless it's AoE. Yeah, that sounds very bugged to me and I'd rather they just give us stealth back than wasting time and effort to fix something that doesn't belong.

If you really want to hunt stealth characters, detection potions are your best friend. Those 20m are a lot. And there is also a new CP that grants detection to those that wish to invest in it. Then there is always the detection sets nobody ever uses.

But if you want to be a stealth character yourself, then your passive detection actually only helps your enemy as can be seen here.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Basically recreating/reposting my old post, because I can't quote it thanks to the thread being locked.

Test1: No medium Armor on both, the one with the red orbs has 3/3 Hunter's Eye.


Without wearing any armor, the "danger" indicator is nonexistant for the person being revealed. You go from completely hidden straight to full reveal. However there is some very wonky behavior as I am constantly going "hidden" again since no combat is happening, only to be immediately detected as soon as the indicator goes to "hidden" without any of us moving. This is when sneaking face toward face. The fennec fox pet was friendly enough to not go into stealth, so you can still tell where my sneaking Bosmer friend is. Note that he is not standing on top of the flag but slightly behind it (there is room for about another crouching Bosmer between him and the flag).

Test2: One has full medium armor with passives, the other with the red orbs has 3/3 Hunter's Eye


This time the Bosmer without the Hunter's Eye passive put on 7 pieces of medium armor, none of which interact with detection nor stealth beyond the medium armor passive. As you can clearly see, the Bosmer without Hunter's Eye is made aware of a nearby enemy through the "danger" indicator - the half opened eye. The Bosmer with Hunter's eye is still hidden and has no idea an enemy even exists in the area. This time the helpful fox behaved and went properly into hiding. The duel flag is touching the Hunter's Eye Bosmer's heel this time.

The point is, Bosmer have been stealthy for 25 years all the way since The Elder Scrolls Arena and then ZOS just tries to brush that under the rug in Wrathstone while claiming that "no two races should share a passive". And guess what, Altmer, Orcs and Dunmer are sharing a passive now, so there is absolutely no excuse why Bosmer couldn't get their stealth back.

selig_fay

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The point is, Bosmer have been stealthy for 25 years all the way since The Elder Scrolls Arena.

Yes, it is. But the bosmer also focuses on shooting and accuracy. And I think that's what they want to do.
Another point, here everyone follows their own goals. You pursue the goal of stealth, I pursue the goal of my convenience. Yes, there are additional ways to get detection, but they either require a slot and resources, while the passive one always works. Yes, I also use stealth, but I don't have to get close, because I can shoot and run fast.
On the other hand, if it is stealth, then the bonus is bonus. Well. But, this will not be the thing that I often use in both pvp and pve. For this reason, I would prefer improved detection for pve and I think it works well in pvp for me. You know, stealth dont do much for pve. Especially when you play a Stage 4 vampire, you ignore a lot of things and the stealth bonus doesn't matter.

anadandy

Another point on stealth and PVE. We have two entire DLCs that revolve around being sneaky and stealthy. Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood. Stealth being an important game mechanic is not a matter of opinion.

That said - my main beef is Bosmer have always been stealthy, always . Every game manual going back to Arena I think mentions Bosmer stealth. They took that away with no good reason.

Ratzkifal

selig_fay wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The point is, Bosmer have been stealthy for 25 years all the way since The Elder Scrolls Arena.

Yes, it is. But the bosmer also focuses on shooting and accuracy. And I think that's what they want to do.
Another point, here everyone follows their own goals. You pursue the goal of stealth, I pursue the goal of my convenience. Yes, there are additional ways to get detection, but they either require a slot and resources, while the passive one always works. Yes, I also use stealth, but I don't have to get close, because I can shoot and run fast.
On the other hand, if it is stealth, then the bonus is bonus. Well. But, this will not be the thing that I often use in both pvp and pve. For this reason, I would prefer improved detection for pve and I think it works well in pvp for me. You know, stealth dont do much for pve. Especially when you play a Stage 4 vampire, you ignore a lot of things and the stealth bonus doesn't matter.

Since we are on the topic of convenience. I made my Bosmer back in Morrowind because I wanted to be a stealthy character and already had a Khajiit and wanted something else. Bosmer had me covered on that and had other people covered two years prior to me making my own. It was only in Wrathstone when stealth was removed in favor of detection, which nobody had asked for. A lot of people didn't even realize what had happened because of the confusing wording until people on the forums spoke up about it. Back then there was a forum post asking for ZOS to return stealth to the Bosmer with 123 Agrees and 28 awesomes in favor of them doing so on the original post, which is quite an impressive number on this forum. Their convenience was unjustly taken away from them.

The thing is, lore creates expectations. If the lore says that Bosmer are good at archery and stealth, then I expect the Bosmer in ESO to be good with that as well. I can understand why they don't get a racial bonus to bow damage but they should have a bonus to stealth as well, just like they had for 4 years until Wrathstone.

I am not just arguing for my convenience, I am arguing for consistency with the lore too. The lore consistency is what drives me. The convenience does not matter to me as much. I argued for Argonian poison and disease resistance at every turn too, even though I do not actually have an Argonian character.
I can accept that my Imperial will have to invest into stealth to complete heists and contracts because the lore has set up my expectations properly. Similarly you should accept that without lore support for detection, there is no room for such a passive in the Bosmer racial passives, especially if it is taking away the spot of a more lore appropriate effect.
Racial passives are there to tell players about the race they are playing. Champion points, sets and skill lines are all individually acquired specializations and that's where detection should be found for people who want to have it.

The only race that was stated to be good at spotting stealthy people in the lore are Orcs, specifically Woodorcs, who have to deal with Bosmer stealing from their strongholds if they aren't vigilant at all times. Feel free to ask ZOS to give Orcs detection. You can also stretch it and say that the Nightvision of Khajiits is a form of detection, but I doubt you will find a lot of Khajiit willing to give up on their stealth just to get useless detection.

selig_fay

Ratzkifal wrote: »

selig_fay wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The point is, Bosmer have been stealthy for 25 years all the way since The Elder Scrolls Arena.

Yes, it is. But the bosmer also focuses on shooting and accuracy. And I think that's what they want to do.
Another point, here everyone follows their own goals. You pursue the goal of stealth, I pursue the goal of my convenience. Yes, there are additional ways to get detection, but they either require a slot and resources, while the passive one always works. Yes, I also use stealth, but I don't have to get close, because I can shoot and run fast.
On the other hand, if it is stealth, then the bonus is bonus. Well. But, this will not be the thing that I often use in both pvp and pve. For this reason, I would prefer improved detection for pve and I think it works well in pvp for me. You know, stealth dont do much for pve. Especially when you play a Stage 4 vampire, you ignore a lot of things and the stealth bonus doesn't matter.

Since we are on the topic of convenience. I made my Bosmer back in Morrowind because I wanted to be a stealthy character and already had a Khajiit and wanted something else. Bosmer had me covered on that and had other people covered two years prior to me making my own. It was only in Wrathstone when stealth was removed in favor of detection, which nobody had asked for. A lot of people didn't even realize what had happened because of the confusing wording until people on the forums spoke up about it. Back then there was a forum post asking for ZOS to return stealth to the Bosmer with 123 Agrees and 28 awesomes in favor of them doing so on the original post, which is quite an impressive number on this forum. Their convenience was unjustly taken away from them.

The thing is, lore creates expectations. If the lore says that Bosmer are good at archery and stealth, then I expect the Bosmer in ESO to be good with that as well. I can understand why they don't get a racial bonus to bow damage but they should have a bonus to stealth as well, just like they had for 4 years until Wrathstone.

I am not just arguing for my convenience, I am arguing for consistency with the lore too. The lore consistency is what drives me. The convenience does not matter to me as much. I argued for Argonian poison and disease resistance at every turn too, even though I do not actually have an Argonian character.
I can accept that my Imperial will have to invest into stealth to complete heists and contracts because the lore has set up my expectations properly. Similarly you should accept that without lore support for detection, there is no room for such a passive in the Bosmer racial passives, especially if it is taking away the spot of a more lore appropriate effect.
Racial passives are there to tell players about the race they are playing. Champion points, sets and skill lines are all individually acquired specializations and that's where detection should be found for people who want to have it.

The only race that was stated to be good at spotting stealthy people in the lore are Orcs, specifically Woodorcs, who have to deal with Bosmer stealing from their strongholds if they aren't vigilant at all times. Feel free to ask ZOS to give Orcs detection. You can also stretch it and say that the Nightvision of Khajiits is a form of detection, but I doubt you will find a lot of Khajiit willing to give up on their stealth just to get useless detection.

You say that the bosmer has stealth problems, but there are two ways to keep stealth. Either you improve your stealth, or you keep distance. And the bosmer will have a good tool for this - speed. And speaking of which, I wouldn't mind an increase in stealth speed.
The second point is an indication that the Bosmer is concentrating on ranged combat. There's no reason for a Bosmer to be any better at sneaking up on a melee than a Khajiit, for example. And a minor improvement in attack range and abilities would look better than stealth. But this is an OP, so I'm not even considering that option. Although, it all depends on the numbers and how it will work.
Third, lore says that the bosmer is able to control the lower beings. And if we move away from the topic of stealth, then I would like to have a passive one in this direction.

Lore can be interpreted in many ways. Lore does not have statistics and figures. No set will hide you better than a wall, rock, tree, or other large object. This is how I interpret it and I have no problem with it. Hunter ring is really able to improve your stealth at the expense of speed. And as we know, the Bosmer are more hunters than thieves.

But I will not refer to lore. I'm here to defend their interests first and foremost. And if I lose detection, I won't be upset, it's true, but I don't expect an increase in stealth. I don't need this. I'm used to playing without it, including passing the stealthy dls. Yes, the vampire helps, but I don't use the fourth stage, because it really looks very dishonest in terms of stealth in pve. (Or rather, I use it, but only when I'm very lazy xD)

Girl_Number8

Ratzkifal wrote: »

First of all, thanks for listening to the feedback on Hunter's Eye for the penetration and movement speed! It's also great to see Argonians got their Poison AND Disease Resistance back! I am sure our lizard friends will be happy to hear that.

But now that that is over, let's get back to giving more feedback. The title already gave it away.
Bosmer need their stealth back! It is part of their identity as a race. Detection is a pointless bonus. Item sets that grant detection effects are considered "decon trash". People who want detection so badly can already wear these sets if they want, but the Bosmer race was born as a Stealth race. Since The Elder Scrolls Arena they have always been a stealth race up until Wrathstone, which reduced the number of stealth races in ESO from 2 to 1, killing diversity instead of opening it up to more races. When I made my Bosmer Warden back in Morrowind I thought "I want to be stealthy. But I don't want to be Khajiit! So Imma take the other one and be a Bow Elf! Yeah, sneaky bow elf!" I did not race change my character to a Khajiit because I liked her just the way she was and wanted back what I had. The lore is very clear on this too. The Rite of Theft isn't called the Rite of Armed Robbery or The Rite of being a Guard. The "chameleon-like skin" might be an exaggeration but there is a kernel of truth behind that, which this game needs to acknowledge!

Please ZOS, return the Bosmer to their former glory! The racial passives are being updated again - the time is right.

EDIT: I just got onto PTS to check out the new CP system and found that "The Craft" has a star that can give you up to 3m of stealth, which is great for all the other races that want to engage with stealth, but that does not solve the core issue. The core issue is that Racial passives serve a narrative purpose. They are meant to tell players something about the race they are playing and a bonus to stealth would tell players that Bosmer are a stealthy people, which indeed they are in the lore. That's why it is appropriate for them to have a passive like that, regardless of whether they can get those 3m from anywhere else or not. And let's not forget that this is still an investment of 30CP for something that according to the lore Bosmer should have innately (after unlocking and spending 3 skill points in their racial passives). Thanks for listening to my TED talk.

You have been trying for so long whenever you can, I don’t think it will change but good luck.

Minyassa

There's got to be some hope someday for people who refused to race change their beloved Bosmer thieves. It was random and pointless for the stealth passive to be taken away in the first place. I don't know about everyone else but I would be happy to forget it ever happened if they'd just put it back this time and then leave it alone in future.

Ratzkifal

selig_fay wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

selig_fay wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The point is, Bosmer have been stealthy for 25 years all the way since The Elder Scrolls Arena.

Yes, it is. But the bosmer also focuses on shooting and accuracy. And I think that's what they want to do.
Another point, here everyone follows their own goals. You pursue the goal of stealth, I pursue the goal of my convenience. Yes, there are additional ways to get detection, but they either require a slot and resources, while the passive one always works. Yes, I also use stealth, but I don't have to get close, because I can shoot and run fast.
On the other hand, if it is stealth, then the bonus is bonus. Well. But, this will not be the thing that I often use in both pvp and pve. For this reason, I would prefer improved detection for pve and I think it works well in pvp for me. You know, stealth dont do much for pve. Especially when you play a Stage 4 vampire, you ignore a lot of things and the stealth bonus doesn't matter.

Since we are on the topic of convenience. I made my Bosmer back in Morrowind because I wanted to be a stealthy character and already had a Khajiit and wanted something else. Bosmer had me covered on that and had other people covered two years prior to me making my own. It was only in Wrathstone when stealth was removed in favor of detection, which nobody had asked for. A lot of people didn't even realize what had happened because of the confusing wording until people on the forums spoke up about it. Back then there was a forum post asking for ZOS to return stealth to the Bosmer with 123 Agrees and 28 awesomes in favor of them doing so on the original post, which is quite an impressive number on this forum. Their convenience was unjustly taken away from them.

The thing is, lore creates expectations. If the lore says that Bosmer are good at archery and stealth, then I expect the Bosmer in ESO to be good with that as well. I can understand why they don't get a racial bonus to bow damage but they should have a bonus to stealth as well, just like they had for 4 years until Wrathstone.

I am not just arguing for my convenience, I am arguing for consistency with the lore too. The lore consistency is what drives me. The convenience does not matter to me as much. I argued for Argonian poison and disease resistance at every turn too, even though I do not actually have an Argonian character.
I can accept that my Imperial will have to invest into stealth to complete heists and contracts because the lore has set up my expectations properly. Similarly you should accept that without lore support for detection, there is no room for such a passive in the Bosmer racial passives, especially if it is taking away the spot of a more lore appropriate effect.
Racial passives are there to tell players about the race they are playing. Champion points, sets and skill lines are all individually acquired specializations and that's where detection should be found for people who want to have it.

The only race that was stated to be good at spotting stealthy people in the lore are Orcs, specifically Woodorcs, who have to deal with Bosmer stealing from their strongholds if they aren't vigilant at all times. Feel free to ask ZOS to give Orcs detection. You can also stretch it and say that the Nightvision of Khajiits is a form of detection, but I doubt you will find a lot of Khajiit willing to give up on their stealth just to get useless detection.

You say that the bosmer has stealth problems, but there are two ways to keep stealth. Either you improve your stealth, or you keep distance. And the bosmer will have a good tool for this - speed. And speaking of which, I wouldn't mind an increase in stealth speed.
The second point is an indication that the Bosmer is concentrating on ranged combat. There's no reason for a Bosmer to be any better at sneaking up on a melee than a Khajiit, for example. And a minor improvement in attack range and abilities would look better than stealth. But this is an OP, so I'm not even considering that option. Although, it all depends on the numbers and how it will work.
Third, lore says that the bosmer is able to control the lower beings. And if we move away from the topic of stealth, then I would like to have a passive one in this direction.

Lore can be interpreted in many ways. Lore does not have statistics and figures. No set will hide you better than a wall, rock, tree, or other large object. This is how I interpret it and I have no problem with it. Hunter ring is really able to improve your stealth at the expense of speed. And as we know, the Bosmer are more hunters than thieves.

But I will not refer to lore. I'm here to defend their interests first and foremost. And if I lose detection, I won't be upset, it's true, but I don't expect an increase in stealth. I don't need this. I'm used to playing without it, including passing the stealthy dls. Yes, the vampire helps, but I don't use the fourth stage, because it really looks very dishonest in terms of stealth in pve. (Or rather, I use it, but only when I'm very lazy xD)

I would say Bosmer have more of a lore problem than actual stealth problems. Keeping distance will not restore the lore and neither will putting on different gear. The issue lies with racial passives not representing the race they belong to.

Aside from that I feel like "keeping distance" isn't very good advice because that only works for a ranged character or when you are trying to flee, but if you are the aggressor and you are melee then keeping distance isn't an option. It is also not an option in the tight spaces of the Imperial City sewers, because sometimes there just isn't enough room to keep your distance.

Your second point isn't very clear to me. There is no reason for a Bosmer to be any better at sneaking up on a melee than a Khajiit? I might be misunderstanding this, but prior to Skyrim (when Acrobatics was removed) Khajiit weren't as good at sneaking as Bosmer and were much better in acrobatics, however they always have been a stealth race. But conversely there is no reason for Khajiit to be better at that than Bosmer either. They should be equals! And yet ZOS removed stealth from Bosmer claiming that only one of them could have that passive.

Third point - well, come up with a good passive for it then and make a forum post about it. I'd like to see what you come up with, because personally I don't see how that could work. I made my Warden a Bosmer because the whole animal handling theme fit very well. I was under the impression that being a Bosmer would help my Warden make up for the fact that Wardens are not as stealthy as NBs and that worked out for me well until Wrathstone hit. I can still complete the content, but it is less fun now.

Fourth point, Bosmer being hunters. Bosmer are hunters and a hunter needs to be stealthy to ambush and catch prey. It's also not a question of being more hunters than thieves. They are both hunters and thieves. They have been described as thieves in every Elder Scrolls game since Arena. The most famous Bosmer poem is called "One thousand benefits of hiding", their favorite past-time is stealing something difficult or impressive and then offering a trade to the one they stole it from. It's kind of weird that a race, with a culture that revolves around sneaking and thievery as much as the Bosmer's, is exactly as stealthy as races without such cultures. It boggles the mind.

They really should get that stealth radius back. You might not miss it, but a lot of other people do miss it - miss it a lot actually.

Ratzkifal

Minyassa wrote: »

There's got to be some hope someday for people who refused to race change their beloved Bosmer thieves. It was random and pointless for the stealth passive to be taken away in the first place. I don't know about everyone else but I would be happy to forget it ever happened if they'd just put it back this time and then leave it alone in future.

Well said!

Cundu_Ertur

SodanTok wrote: »

Detection Stealth is a pointless bonus. Item sets that grant detection stealth effects are considered "decon trash". People who want detection stealth so badly can already wear these sets if they want,

This is factually incorrect. Compare the prices for Way of Air to Night Mother's Embrace, Night Terror, or Darloc Brae; the stealth sets sell for significantly more. If you don't like stealth, that's fine, but don't lie to make your personal feelings sound like they are universal.

Also, where are these changes listed? I looked in the PTN natch potes, but didn't see anything racial there.
duuuuuuur dur dur derpy derp nevermind found it.

Cundu_Ertur

I think it is important to note that one of the main objections that people had ("Two races can't have the same bonus") now looks like it is moot since Argonians and Bosmer both have Poison and Disease resistance again. So that's no longer a valid reason to deny Bosmer their lore-based inherent bonus to hiding.

Give the detection to Orcs. Bosmer are supposed to be masters of thievery and the art of stealth.

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I think it is important to note that one of the main objections that people had ("Two races can't have the same bonus") now looks like it is moot since Argonians and Bosmer both have Poison and Disease resistance again. So that's no longer a valid reason to deny Bosmer their lore-based inherent bonus to hiding.

Give the detection to Orcs. Bosmer are supposed to be masters of thievery and the art of stealth.

It's not only Argonians and Bosmer sharing a passive now. Orcs, Dunmer and Altmer share a passive now too! All of them have 258 Spell and Weapon damage.

I also want to point out that should Orcs get detection, then ZOS better not remove anything else for that. Detection should not count as a full item set bonus because it does nothing most of the time. Nobody deserves to get nerfed just so they can get detection slapped onto them.

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I think it is important to note that one of the main objections that people had ("Two races can't have the same bonus") now looks like it is moot since Argonians and Bosmer both have Poison and Disease resistance again. So that's no longer a valid reason to deny Bosmer their lore-based inherent bonus to hiding.

Give the detection to Orcs. Bosmer are supposed to be masters of thievery and the art of stealth.

It's not only Argonians and Bosmer sharing a passive now. Orcs, Dunmer and Altmer share a passive now too! All of them have 258 Spell and Weapon damage.

I also want to point out that should Orcs get detection, then ZOS better not remove anything else for that. Detection should not count as a full item set bonus because it does nothing most of the time. Nobody deserves to get nerfed just so they can get detection slapped onto them.

Agreed.

Ratzkifal

I was thinking about the new CPs a bit and the detection bonus you can find in there.
Do you think it needs to be buffed to 6m at max rank if Bosmer get their stealth back and lose detection for it?
Personally I wouldn't be getting it for any of my characters even then but maybe that is a good compromise for the people on the Dev team or whoever keeps pushing for detection.

BlueRaven

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I was thinking about the new CPs a bit and the detection bonus you can find in there.
Do you think it needs to be buffed to 6m at max rank if Bosmer get their stealth back and lose detection for it?
Personally I wouldn't be getting it for any of my characters even then but maybe that is a good compromise for the people on the Dev team or whoever keeps pushing for detection.

I suppose that is reasonable. I wonder still if anyone will bother putting points into it even at 6m. It seems too small of an area.

Ratzkifal

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I was thinking about the new CPs a bit and the detection bonus you can find in there.
Do you think it needs to be buffed to 6m at max rank if Bosmer get their stealth back and lose detection for it?
Personally I wouldn't be getting it for any of my characters even then but maybe that is a good compromise for the people on the Dev team or whoever keeps pushing for detection.

I suppose that is reasonable. I wonder still if anyone will bother putting points into it even at 6m. It seems too small of an area.

6m would definitely be enough to notice NBs in cloak, which would expose its buggy nature. With a total of 12m of detection you are still only at half the distance of a detection potion though, so who knows.