Harder Main Story Bosses
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ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭Having just beat Markarth bosses I can say it is incredibly anticlimactic to blow through a boss that has been hyped up for a year. Especially when you get mid fight dialog or mid fight mechanics. I I have to stop damaging a boss just to hear all that they have to say, it is kinda a problem.Edited by ke.sardenb14_ESO on November 21, 2020 12:11PM5 -
red_emu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I remeber when I first defeated Molag Bal. Level maybe 25-30. I was nervous that this is gonna be a hard fight. 10 seconds later, the big bad Daedric Prince was dead... I felt it was very anticlimactic and it was the first time I played the game.
I don't think the difficulty of main story lines is ever gonna change. It's designed to be a sandbox story mode. For challenges you do dungeons, trials and PvP.PC - EU:
Falathren Noctis - AD MagNecro
Falathren - AD StamSorc
Falathren Eryndaer - AD StamDen
Falathren Irimion - AD MagPlar
Talagan Falathren - AD StamDK
Falathren Infernis - AD MagDK
Your-Ex - AD MagBlade1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ESO harder story bosses
NOTES:
1. This is NOT about “veteran overland mode“ nor is it saying, in any way whatsoever, that there is a lack of difficult content in the game.
This is purely about how the gameplay of a main story boss impacts the story.
2. This is an old proposal that has gone through drastic review.
3. *New* please read the whole thing before you give questions or critiques.
Post
The Story does not have to purely cater to new or casual players.
Many Longtime Endgame Players, including myself, are tired of Story Bosses that are designed for casual players which can be easily dispatched. It’s hard to care about the story when the final antagonist can be beaten in 2 seconds.
It can seriously undercut the story.
We want the Main Antagonists to be memorable experiences that live up the how the stories build them up. We want to look forward to fighting them.
In order to balance this out with new or casual players, this would require the separate veteran instance to have different mechanics.
Because story bosses like the Dragons in Elweyr we’re just pure time gates.
They were seriously extremely anti-climatic.
That issue would not be resolved by “self nerfing“.
Speaking as somebody that was using less than ideal gear & stats, it was still a boring fight - in fact even more so because it just took longer.
Mechanics are what makes or breaks a good boss fight. End of story.
So - only for Main Story Bosses - have two separate instances for them.
- Normal
- Veteran
Up to four people can load into your instance, but you do not require four people to participate.
In either instance, bosses would still be designed to be beaten by a single player, but your friends can still tagalong.
The difference being that boss in veteran mode would have more challenging mechanics than they do in normal mode.
With Mechanics being reviewed here are the story bosses that would be getting a Veteran Mode
Solo Story Dungeons - Full Breakdown
(NOTE: reminder that friends can still tag along but the bosses can still be beaten solo)[/spoiler]SpoilerNEW group activities
PlanemeldSpoilerThe King of worms - Defeat Mannimarco
The God of Schemes - Make your way to Molag Bal and defeat the God of SchemesSpoiler
OrsiniumSpoilerScarp Keep - Stop King Kurog from killing the Orc Clan ChiefsSpoiler
Daedric WarSpoilerThe Clockwork Vault - Defeat Barbas in the Clockwork City to restore VivecSpoiler
Cogitum Centralis - Find the Shadow of Sotha Sil and stop him before the Clockwork city is lost foreverSpoiler
The Crystal Tower - stop Nocturnal before she uses the tower to remake reality.Spoiler
MurkmireSpoilerVakka-Bok Xanmeer - Prevent Kassandra from acquiring the Remnant of ArgonSpoiler
Season of the DragonSpoilerJode's Core - Defend Jode's core and defeat Mulaamnir to save Northern ElsweyrSpoiler
Doomstone Keep - Assist Nahfahlar end his feud with Laatvulon to save Southern ElsweyrSpoiler
Dragonhold - Journey to Dragonhold and Defeat Kaalgrontiid to save TamrielSpoiler
This of course would translate over to main bosses in the “Dark Heart of Skyrim” story arc
Reward
Since this has separate modes and therefore would become a repeatable activity -
It would not hurt to throw in some cosmetic rewards for certain achievements in veteran mode.
They could earn titles, colors, emotes, costumes, pets, mounts, decorations, single signature motif item, etc.
The quality of the item would be dependent on the achievement accomplished.
Overall the point being is that this is a story boss and not a dungeon or trial, also the focus of this post is on the challenge and not monetary reward.
(EDIT#2: But maybe a mythic item tied to a specific Story Boss would be cool)
Conclusion
This is the basic idea and I think it works. It would work for both casual and endgame players.
It’d make the story Bosses more exciting for many of us.
And It doesn’t drastically split the player base and there’s something for everyone.
Sounds good to me. A lot of those story quest bosses are anti climatic to put it mildly.
Your idea sounds similar to something LOTRO attempted to do back in the day when they added story fights to an instance list.Edited by Jeremy on November 21, 2020 11:35AM1 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The story boss fights are getting a little harder than they used to be or at least they have more health. Still easy to do either way.
All for a hard mode flag type if people want it they activate it but the reward needs to stay the same. After all it is a story quest accessible to everyone. The reward is enough. Maybe make the reward purple quality on hard mode and blue on normal.
ZOS will not go back and add hard mode flag to older content but going forward I don’t see why they can’t do it. Even add it to all delves going forward. Throw one up at world bosses to activate before the fight, but again the reward stays the same to be fair to lower level players except like I said a higher quality item or a guarantee purple item at least.
Be safe and have fun
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hafgood✭✭✭✭✭
✭Whilst I have no problems with a quest boss being harder to kill I do have a problem with the overall idea.
Quests are designed to be done once on a character, they are not designed to be repeated. Would I want to repeat them? No. Would I feel obligated to repeat them? Yes. If there are achievements associated with doing so.
I don't like the grind of 30 dailies to get the achievements, hated the grind to 150 for JeeLar Binks. I'd do it because I had to, not because I wanted to. Once I've done a majn quest once my interest in repeating it is zero.
And storyline wise how do you justify it? Oh I've finished the main quest or normal so I'm going to assume it didn't happen and restart it on vet? Sorry, once you've beaten Molag Bal you've beaten Molag Bal.
I just can't raise any enthusiasm for this idea0 -
MirandaSharp✭✭✭✭I'd like to have a difficulty slider in the settings for overland questing that simply changes the level scaling ratio, making the player character effectively lower level than the enemies. Just a way to nerf oneself to make questing fun again on higher level characters. Now I make a new low level character if I want to enjoy a quest line, cause it's just not fun with an uber powered high level char.2
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barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OK
First off, I have a issues with posts that start out by distinguishing New/Casual player vs Very Experienced player and therefore changes need to be made for the Experienced player.
Second - It's the Main Quest. By definition, a character can Only run this Once. The OP seems to want to turn this into a Dungeon that is repeatable. I don't see a need for this.
Third - Since it IS the Main Quest, when you run it with additional characters, Of Course it is going to be 'easier' to complete.
I don't get the complaint. Aren't there enough repeatable dungeons/trials/whatever in the game to challenge powerful characters and experienced players? Why advocate that the Main Quest (or Part of it ) become repeatable?
IMHO
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Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@hafgood
To address questions.
Only the boss encounter would become repeatable, not the entire quest line, mainly for the sake of allowing the player to adjust the difficulty between normal and veteran. (also what if a player did on Normal but wants to try it on Veteran) These encounters would be on the map as "Lairs" to distinguish themselves from Dungeons and Trials.
The reason I proposed cosmetic rewards is because the last time I made a similar proposal with higher tier gear rewards it divided people and it became entirely about the reward. So I thought cosmetic reward was a good compromise seeing as how many MMOs (WoW in particular) have cosmetic rewards for endgame content including main story bosses.
The reason I propose any reward at all is because all in-game activities with difficulty options have a tier reward system, so I'm following that logic.
@barney2525
Bosses are not just easier because the player may be experienced. The bosses are specifically designed for the new player which is odd because the writing continues the narrative for longtime players - many of whom play endgame content.
Like I said in the OP; this is Not about a lack of difficult content, this is about how the gameplay experience affects the story and hyping up a main villain for a year only to have a mediocre, short lived fight is really anti-climatic and sours the story. It leaves us with a feeling of "That's it?" and to be quite honest I feel that it is a waste of resources to NOT at the very least have a difficulty option for the main boss of a story that a whole year was dedicated to.Edited by Iccotak on November 21, 2020 8:04PM3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Main story quests are for everyone. Therefor they need to be accessible to everyone.
Creating vet zones will only separate the player population, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to correct.
If you want more of a challenge, there are vet dungeons and trials.Edited by SilverBride on November 21, 2020 8:50PMPCNA2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Main story quests are for everyone. Therefor they need to be accessible to everyone.
Creating vet zones will only separate the player population, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to correct.
If you want more of a challenge, there are vet dungeons and trials.
Read the post again.
I said this is specifically about the main story boss. It is not about general Overland content or the entire main quest. Just the main story bosses.1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Read the post again.
I said this is specifically about the main story boss. It is not about general Overland content or the entire main quest. Just the main story bosses.
Main story bosses are part of the main story quest lines. As such they should be doable by all players, not just those who are decked out in vet gear.PCNA2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
Main story bosses are part of the main story quest lines. As such they should be doable by all players, not just those who are decked out in vet gear.
Hence Why I said “Optional” difficultly.
The story boss does not have to purely cater to new players.
Again. Read The OPEdited by Iccotak on November 21, 2020 10:06PM2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
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Hence Why I said “Optional” difficultly.
The story boss does not have to purely cater to new players.
Again. Read The OP
It's really not that optional when you try to tie achievements and cosmetics and such into it. Questing is one of the only pieces of content in this game where anyone can get the associated achievements and rewards, alone, no matter their style. It is okay for some things to be for casual players. Not all content should gate it's rewards to vet players only.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 21, 2020 10:17PM5 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
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Hence Why I said “Optional” difficultly.
The story boss does not have to purely cater to new players.
Again. Read The OP
I did, and I disagree with it for the reasons I stated, and one more. Where would it end?
First you get the option for a harder quest boss, then vet zones, then as you keep getting stronger those aren't challenging enough any more. It would end up a perpetual spiral of always wanting harder content.
If they do introduce more challenging difficulty for storyline quest bosses, would you be satisfied if the loot table stayed the same? Or would you expect better drops?
Also, they don't cater to new players. They create storyline quests and bosses for the average player, which is a large part of the game population.Edited by SilverBride on November 21, 2020 10:18PMPCNA3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Also, they don't cater to new players. They create storyline quests and bosses for the average player, which is a large part of the game population.
Not only that but the casual players have been new content starved for ages now. Only quests and delves are still designed for them. World Events and Bosses have been taken away for years now.
Some content should be for everyone. Leave the quests and delves alone. If you make a challenge option, make it not repeatable and no difference in rewards. This way it's truly optional.
Edited by spartaxoxo on November 21, 2020 10:21PM4 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Main story quests are for everyone. Therefor they need to be accessible to everyone.
Creating vet zones will only separate the player population, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to correct.
If you want more of a challenge, there are vet dungeons and trials.
"Everyone" should include those who aren't level 1. That goes both ways. Unless you just picked up the game yesterday, these hyped boss fights are going to be the most anti climactic thing you'll experience in game. And that would be for a large majority of the player base.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna5 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
"Everyone" should include those who aren't level 1. That goes both ways. Unless you just picked up the game yesterday, these hyped boss fights are going to be the most anti climactic thing you'll experience in game. And that would be for a large majority of the player base.
It being anti-climatic doesn't make it inaccessible. It being too hard for a low level to complete does. Quests are for people who did just pick up the game yesterday.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 21, 2020 10:37PM2 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
It being anti-climatic doesn't make it inaccessible. It being too hard for a low level to complete does.
It would seem no one actually read the original post, in which case I'm not going to waste time making my point. I'll say this only, however: if you can pick up a video game, and beat the entirety of its story without putting any effort into making yourself stronger and leveling, then that game's story is a failure in my eyes.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
It would seem no one actually read the original post, in which case I'm not going to waste time making my point. I'll say this only, however: if you can pick up a video game, and beat the entirety of its story without putting any effort into making yourself stronger and leveling, then that game's story is a failure in my eyes.
I did read it. And i responded multiple times directly to your points. The response you quoted is a response to your idea it should "go both ways." Anti-climatic is NOT an accessibility issue. So no, that point does not go both ways. Anything a new player can do, a vet player can do too. The same is NOT true in reverse.
This is not a single player game. It is an MMO. Some content is designed for new players to complete and get ALL of the rewards. Questing is that content for this game, and any suggestion for making the bosses harder for vet players should respect that.
This one doesn't, taking the most desirable rewards and giving them to vet players. There is enough of that type of content in this game.
Newer and more casual players only have quests and delves, they don't need to lose anymore content.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 21, 2020 10:46PM4 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
It's really not that optional when you try to tie achievements and cosmetics and such into it. Questing is one of the only pieces of content in this game where anyone can get the associated achievements and rewards, alone, no matter their style. It is okay for some things to be for casual players. Not all content should gate it's rewards to vet players only.
Tying achievements to an optional difficulty for a story boss in no way makes it mandated.
Plenty of players play the normal dungeons for the story and aren’t too worried about getting veteran achievements.
Also Achievements are tied to it because there’s a difficulty option. This is the case for any content in the game - if there’s a veteran mode for it then there are achievements for doing things on veteran mode.
A basic part of the proposal is that it’s following the logic in the game.
It’s giving something to the player, acknowledging their accomplishment.SilverBride wrote: »
I did, and I disagree with it for the reasons I stated, and one more. Where would it end?
First you get the option for a harder quest boss, then vet zones, then as you keep getting stronger those aren't challenging enough any more. It would end up a perpetual spiral of always wanting harder content.
If they do introduce more challenging difficulty for storyline quest bosses, would you be satisfied if the loot table stayed the same? Or would you expect better drops?
Also, they don't cater to new players. They create storyline quests and bosses for the average player, which is a large part of the game population.
Your original reason stated was accessibility, which would not go away if there are optional difficulties. Players could still play it on the same difficulty it is now but now people who want a harder version of it have access to it as well.
They do cater to new players because they are included in the average population. Zones are designed to be out as accessible as possible - this especially means for new players as well. The problem is that this leaves out the endgame players (many of which are longtime players) who also follow the story
But accessibility should not have to come at the cost of endgame players enjoyment of storylines, which others in this thread have pointed out.
Also, using your reasoning; people would be clamoring right now for a harder version of existing veteran dungeons, which they aren’t because they are perfectly difficult the way they are right now.
So your “slippery slope” is not a strong argument and is oddly gatekeeping.
@Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
Agreed, they don’t seem to get how their arguments for accessibility are in advertently exclusionary.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tying achievements to an optional difficulty for a story boss in no way makes it mandated.
Plenty of players play the normal dungeons for the story and aren’t too worried about getting veteran achievements
They do worry about it, which is why devs have made some changes to how cosmetics are rewarded to make them more accessible. And they would worry about them a lot more if ALL content kept them away from getting nice things. Right now they are content because they have things they can do for those kinds of rewards too, in particular the quests.
Taking away new players ONLY means to get the nice rewards does make that content inarguably worse for those players.
The vet system does not belong in all content, that is why it's not a part of all content.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 21, 2020 10:52PM2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
I did read it. And i responded multiple times directly to your points. The response you quoted is a response to your idea it should "go both ways." Anti-climatic is NOT an accessibility issue. So no, that point does not go both ways. Anything a new player can do, a vet player can do too. The same is NOT true in reverse.
This is not a single player game. It is an MMO. Some content is designed for new players to complete and get ALL of the rewards. Questing is that content for this game, and any suggestion for making the bosses harder for vet players should respect that.
And anti-climatic Bossfight is an accessibility issue. Because those bosses were made it easier for the sake of accessibility.
Many bosses and mini-bosses were harder before the accessibility revamp.
Don’t get me wrong accessibility has done great things for the zones and we’re getting more people into the game.
But it has robbed some fun from the challenge found in story bosses.
And again I don’t see how having an option for a veteran mode hurt you in anyway. It doesn’t take anything away from new players accessibility.
Also if anything adding a veteran mode to old story bosses, and giving them cosmetic achievements, Would enrich older content and give some players a reason to revisit that stuff if they want to
(Edited for speech to text errors)Edited by Iccotak on November 22, 2020 7:16AM3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
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And anti-climatic Bossfight is an accessibility issue. Because those bosses were made it easier for the sake of accessibility.
No. It is not. Anti-climatic is a purely emotional and subjective feeling, and not an accessibility issue at all. You can play any story content you want, whether you have the desire to is not the same as being literally unable to do it.
New players have a singular source of cosmetics, quests, that is it. Turning those into vet rewards takes away one group's sole source of getting them to hand it over to a group that has every other route in the game to obtain them. New players deserve something they can get all the rewards too.
Edited by spartaxoxo on November 21, 2020 10:56PM4 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
They do worry about it, which is why devs have made some changes to how cosmetics are rewarded to make them more accessible. And they would worry about them a lot more if ALL content kept them away from getting nice things. Right now they are content because they have things they can do for those kinds of rewards too, in particular the quests.
Taking away new players ONLY means to get the nice rewards does make that content inarguably worse for those players.
The vet system does not belong in all content, that is why it's not a part of all content.
Taking it away from new players?
There’s nothing there for new players in the first place.
This is about giving something to other players who also enjoy getting into the story.
You are making it out to be a way bigger issue than it actually is.2 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
I did read it. And i responded multiple times directly to your points. The response you quoted is a response to your idea it should "go both ways." Anti-climatic is NOT an accessibility issue. So no, that point does not go both ways. Anything a new player can do, a vet player can do too. The same is NOT true in reverse.
This is not a single player game. It is an MMO. Some content is designed for new players to complete and get ALL of the rewards. Questing is that content for this game, and any suggestion for making the bosses harder for vet players should respect that.
This one doesn't, taking the most desirable rewards and giving them to vet players. There is enough of that type of content in this game.
Newer and more casual players only have quests and delves, they don't need to lose anymore content.
You're right, it's an mmo. That's trying to act like a single player game, and doing a terrible job of it. Once again, the OP stated there should be an *optional* difficulty for those of us who would actually like to immerse ourselves in the story. There is not a single downside to an optional difficulty, no matter how hard you try to convince me.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna2 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »if you can pick up a video game, and beat the entirety of its story without putting any effort into making yourself stronger and leveling, then that game's story is a failure in my eyes.
In your eyes. Those are the key words. But not everyone feels that way, especially in a game that offers so many different activities and playstyles.
I don't do vet content for a variety of reasons, but I do put effort into making myself stronger for how I play and the things I choose to do. I find satisfaction in completing every zone, every quest, and fully completing the maps. I also love harrowstorms and world boss fights. And I gear up so I can do these without being carried by the group I am engaging these with.
But I still think this is more about wanting upgraded drops than the difficulty of the boss. And that would not be fair to the rest of the playerbase.PCNA2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
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Taking it away from new players?
There’s nothing there for new players in the first place.
This is about giving something to other players who also enjoy getting into the story.
You are making it out to be a way bigger issue than it actually is.
Yes. There is. When you do all the quests you get a series of rewards for doing them. And the satisfaction of having completed a zone
You want to take away stuff from new players to give it to vet players. Vet players have every other piece of content, and you want to take away the only thing for new ones.
That is a big deal. Completing things and getting all of the rewards is a major part of what makes video games fun. You're talking about taking away the only real accomplishment and reward new players have (total completion of quests and the associated rewards) to reward a group that has everything.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 21, 2020 10:59PM3 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Tying achievements to an optional difficulty for a story boss in no way makes it mandated.
Plenty of players play the normal dungeons for the story and aren’t too worried about getting veteran achievements.
Also Achievements are tied to it because there’s a difficulty option. This is the case for any content in the game - if there’s a veteran mode for it then there are achievements for doing things on veteran mode.
A basic part of the proposal is that it’s following the logic in the game.
It’s giving something to the player, acknowledging their accomplishment.
Your original reason stated was accessibility, which would not go away if there are optional difficulties. Players could still play it on the same difficulty it is now but now people who want a harder version of it have access to it as well.
They do cater to new players because they are included in the average population. Zones are designed to be out as accessible as possible - this especially means for new players as well. The problem is that this leaves out the endgame players (many of which are longtime players) who also follow the story
But accessibility should not have to come at the cost of endgame players enjoyment of storylines, which others in this thread have pointed out.
Also, using your reasoning; people would be clamoring right now for a harder version of existing veteran dungeons, which they aren’t because they are perfectly difficult the way they are right now.
So your “slippery slope” is not a strong argument and is oddly gatekeeping.
@Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
Agreed, they don’t seem to get how their arguments for accessibility are in advertently exclusionary.
Inadvertently exclusionary and poor for the long term health of the game. You shouldn't be able to outgrow the story to an mmo like this before you even reach level ten... Terrible for player retention. But even if you do insist on keeping the game mind numbingly easy, why is there any reason to protest an optional difficulty level? Optional? As in not forced? What possible reason could there be to deny the end game community that. It's mind blowing.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
You're right, it's an mmo. That's trying to act like a single player game, and doing a terrible job of it. Once again, the OP stated there should be an *optional* difficulty for those of us who would actually like to immerse ourselves in the story. There is not a single downside to an optional difficulty, no matter how hard you try to convince me.
There are up and downsides to any position. New players being gate kept out of all the rewards in the only content designed for them, is objectively a downside to this suggestion. A new player is not a vet player. Anything challening for a vet player will be impossible for most any new player. So objectively, they are gate kept out of that content.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 21, 2020 11:03PM1 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
There are up and downsides to any position. New players being gate kept out of all the rewards in the only content designed for them, is objectively a downside to this suggestion. A new player is not a vet player. Anything challening for a vet player will be impossible for most any new player. So objectively, they are gate kept out of that content.
op·tion·al
/ˈäpSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
available to be chosen but not obligatory.Edited by Suna_Ye_Sunnabe on November 21, 2020 11:11PMAngua Anyammis Ae Sunna2
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