DK dead Class?

Vizirith

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

For me as I main a MDK as a dps a tank and in PVP I have to say the single most painful thing about DK is the cost of class skills. It is truly horrific compared to other classes. When a class has to slot a charged staff to sustain or is recommended to slot it that is a problem. Also as for pve I pull my highest parses using elf bane (imagine that a set that makes my dots last longer ) and oh by the way it’s a HEAVy armor set O.o

I’m not saying the DK is trash. Cuz it’s far from that. I have been here since beta and can tell you all it is in a much better place than 2-3 years ago for sure. Resource management is “almost” an issue for every class but the dks resource issue is monumental.

Some of the changes baffle me like flappers. Why the cool down on returning a fireball??? I mean if a pvper is not good enough to stop and wait for the buff to drop or cc me then he should die due to his poor gamesmanship skills. So basically bow users get a pass on this for sure bc of how it currently is. Pfft

Chains. The one that pulls targets to u. Why oh why oh why do you still have a stun immunity tied to it zos? Let me pull them in and fossilize them.

Venom claw - we said when you made the poison Knight to NOT put the damage scaling at the back end but I did it anyways?

Obsidian shard skill tree. Seriously just delete it and start fresh. It sucked then and it sucks now.

Idk. It’s my favorite class to play. But it needs some love. Just a smidge.

You need to have some immunity attached to chains, could you imagine the trolling? 2 dks just spam chaining somebody back and forth.

In my opinion venomous claw damage should be flipped, start high and decrease over time.

Obsidian shard is in an awkward place, the mag morph fills the high heal class healing ability niche. Breath of Life (Templar), Blood Sacrifice (Necro), Matriarch (Sorc), Bursting Vines (Warden), Healthy Offering (NB). The Stam morph isn't too bad it's just clunky.

Urzigurumash

Vizirith wrote: »

In my opinion venomous claw damage should be flipped, start high and decrease over time.

I agree but at least the instant Poisoning gives us some damage up front that isn't reflected in the tooltip

Vizirith

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Recapitated

You've misquoted me but I agree with both you and @DUTCH_REAPER, a slight tune-up to Chains and Wings would go a long way. Wings does give pretty good mobility with the CC immunity though, it's a great evasive skill in my opinion.

Vizirith wrote: »

From a pve perspective that's fine but for pvp ult gen tied to ult cost not ult spent means that you ideally should be using your ult whenever it comes up, instead of combo-ing off it or using it to secure a kill.

Yes it would be stronger if it was Ult Spent, and would allow for better synergy with the strongest offensive Monster Set, Balorgh, although Balorgh now has poor synergy with Corrosive. I wasn't talking about PvE. My point was this burst restoration was something DK did better than any other class, so if it's something you like, it helps to keep the class alive, and if DK is underperforming, this passive might deserve a tune-up.

Stam sorc has great burst regen. Ignoring the 240 stam regen component of dark deal, you trade 2259 (my toon, 5 med, no-cp) magicka for 3600 stam. If we compare battleroar to dark deal:

Battleroar, ult cost x 46 stam , 46 health, 46 mag. 3 ult /sec presuming no buffs/sets. With leap being 125 ult that'd be 5750 stam, mag and health every 42 secs.

Dark Deal, 2259 mag for X health (depends on stats) and 3600 stam + 2400 over 20 secs. My toon has an unbuffed mag regen of 586 (1 LA). That would mean I could cast dark deal once every 8 secs infinitely just based on regen not the fact that I already have some magicka to start.

Recapitated

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Recapitated
Wings does give pretty good mobility with the CC immunity though, it's a great evasive skill in my opinion.

Evasive but not aggressive, I bring it up as an alternative to chains not giving stun immunity. Some stamina soft CC like talons would be nice too, that or buff Warmth so that it can stack two or three times. IDK, maybe do something with one of the Inhale morphs.

Urzigurumash

@Vizirith

StamSorc is definitely second when it comes to burst restoration and instant cast burst heal thanks to Dark Exchange, but neither component of that skill is as strong as Battle Roar or GDB. I'm not talking about anything over time, just what happens within the very moment I cast an Ult. Venomous Claw does more damage than Leap if we talk about things over time. Again I say tune it up, focus on the characterizing features of the class if its underperforming, in my opinion.

Urzigurumash

Of course Dark Conversion isn't quite Instant, it does have a cast time, right? Battle Roar is stronger because you get the resources back at the same time you cast a strong skill - Leap, Onslaught, Corrosive, etc., rather than spending a GCD or more just to get resources. I don't doubt for a second that other classes' recovery features are stronger than Battle Roar in the long haul, and so I say tune it up, but the nature of Battle Roar allows for "feats" that other classes can't pull off.

Urzigurumash

While we're on that subject, how nice it would be to have the old morph of Onslaught back, where it restored the Ult spent on a successful kill. It was mostly a parlor trick, but it was really fun when you got a successful "Onslaught chain" going on a StamDK.

techyeshic

Really obnoxious on pop locked campaigns and lag that dragon leap desyncs you. WTH is the deal with targeted gap closers which cover a distance fast, desync you; but untargeted streak does not? What's in the code?

Recapitated

techyeshic wrote: »

Really obnoxious on pop locked campaigns and lag that dragon leap desyncs you. WTH is the deal with targeted gap closers which cover a distance fast, desync you; but untargeted streak does not? What's in the code?

I don't think there's any target relative math with streak, your end position is going to be the same regardless of where other players are. OTOH when you move to a target the chance that the server doesn't know where one of you is is higher, and maybe some problems are unique to situations where you're both lagging so they can't happen with streak. Just speculating.

Vizirith

techyeshic wrote: »

Really obnoxious on pop locked campaigns and lag that dragon leap desyncs you. WTH is the deal with targeted gap closers which cover a distance fast, desync you; but untargeted streak does not? What's in the code?

Well streak just doesn't go off, it'll consume magicka but nothing happens which is still better than desyncing

DUTCH_REAPER

Recapitated wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Chains. The one that pulls targets to u. Why oh why oh why do you still have a stun immunity tied to it zos? Let me pull them in and fossilize them.

That seems excessive. Snare, gain major expedition, and then drop the strongest CC in the game? Fossilize is rough to cope with on mag classes, the main way to deal with it is to not be in range.

I would rather some mobility options, maybe on wings.

I think u r missing the point. you essentialy give snare immunity to people if u use this skill. otherwise u pull them to you and now they just run away/streak/cloak again.

DUTCH_REAPER

Vizirith wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

For me as I main a MDK as a dps a tank and in PVP I have to say the single most painful thing about DK is the cost of class skills. It is truly horrific compared to other classes. When a class has to slot a charged staff to sustain or is recommended to slot it that is a problem. Also as for pve I pull my highest parses using elf bane (imagine that a set that makes my dots last longer ) and oh by the way it’s a HEAVy armor set O.o

I’m not saying the DK is trash. Cuz it’s far from that. I have been here since beta and can tell you all it is in a much better place than 2-3 years ago for sure. Resource management is “almost” an issue for every class but the dks resource issue is monumental.

Some of the changes baffle me like flappers. Why the cool down on returning a fireball??? I mean if a pvper is not good enough to stop and wait for the buff to drop or cc me then he should die due to his poor gamesmanship skills. So basically bow users get a pass on this for sure bc of how it currently is. Pfft

Chains. The one that pulls targets to u. Why oh why oh why do you still have a stun immunity tied to it zos? Let me pull them in and fossilize them.

Venom claw - we said when you made the poison Knight to NOT put the damage scaling at the back end but I did it anyways?

Obsidian shard skill tree. Seriously just delete it and start fresh. It sucked then and it sucks now.

Idk. It’s my favorite class to play. But it needs some love. Just a smidge.

You need to have some immunity attached to chains, could you imagine the trolling? 2 dks just spam chaining somebody back and forth.

In my opinion venomous claw damage should be flipped, start high and decrease over time.

Obsidian shard is in an awkward place, the mag morph fills the high heal class healing ability niche. Breath of Life (Templar), Blood Sacrifice (Necro), Matriarch (Sorc), Bursting Vines (Warden), Healthy Offering (NB). The Stam morph isn't too bad it's just clunky.

that is such a valid point. thanks never thought of that

ke.sardenb14_ESO

PVE Stam DK player here, asking a serious question to anyone that has an answer for me. Does anyone at all use empowering morph for chains?

hakan

not really. i enjoy battle roar and all of the ultis (and morphs of them) it has a good theme but dot nerfs destroyed that. some tweaks here and there and some skill changes (esp some of the passives) it will be good again. cant talk for pve.

JohnOfMarkarth

Vizirith wrote: »

Obsidian shard is in an awkward place, the mag morph fills the high heal class healing ability niche. Breath of Life (Templar), Blood Sacrifice (Necro), Matriarch (Sorc), Bursting Vines (Warden), Healthy Offering (NB). The Stam morph isn't too bad it's just clunky.

I agree. Persobally i'd like the stam fist thingy to be melee, like whip. Cover yer arm with rock then hit them with a stone fist. Litteral stone fist not... stone orbie that flies after doing a small aoe. You hit the enemy like a brick with a haymaker made of stone. For loads of physical damage. Setting them staggered 3 times then last punch hits extra hard due to the 2 staggers and stuns. (would perhaps increase the damage a bit to compensate for melee range)
Instant, fun to look at, feels powerful and less clunky with no hidden cast times

Recapitated

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Obsidian shard is in an awkward place, the mag morph fills the high heal class healing ability niche. Breath of Life (Templar), Blood Sacrifice (Necro), Matriarch (Sorc), Bursting Vines (Warden), Healthy Offering (NB). The Stam morph isn't too bad it's just clunky.

I agree. Persobally i'd like the stam fist thingy to be melee, like whip. Cover yer arm with rock then hit them with a stone fist. Litteral stone fist not... stone orbie that flies after doing a small aoe. You hit the enemy like a brick with a haymaker made of stone. For loads of physical damage. Setting them staggered 3 times then last punch hits extra hard due to the 2 staggers and stuns. (would perhaps increase the damage a bit to compensate for melee range)
Instant, fun to look at, feels powerful and less clunky with no hidden cast times

That stun is so clunky though, it takes forever to get to compared to landing Dizzy -> medium. Make it reduce the cost of your next mag Earthen Heart ability. That way we can use the DK CC toolkit instead of trying to shoehorn 4 different things into one ability.

Drdeath20

There are clear winners and losers in pvp but generally the people in the better organized groups do well regardless of class.

When it comes to pve you are either a dk tank or a magdk DD and thats it. It is tied for last with a templar but the difference is that dks are still a salvageable class.

ecru

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Obsidian shard is in an awkward place, the mag morph fills the high heal class healing ability niche. Breath of Life (Templar), Blood Sacrifice (Necro), Matriarch (Sorc), Bursting Vines (Warden), Healthy Offering (NB). The Stam morph isn't too bad it's just clunky.

I agree. Persobally i'd like the stam fist thingy to be melee, like whip. Cover yer arm with rock then hit them with a stone fist. Litteral stone fist not... stone orbie that flies after doing a small aoe. You hit the enemy like a brick with a haymaker made of stone. For loads of physical damage. Setting them staggered 3 times then last punch hits extra hard due to the 2 staggers and stuns. (would perhaps increase the damage a bit to compensate for melee range)
Instant, fun to look at, feels powerful and less clunky with no hidden cast times

The idea behind stonefist is solid, but it doesn't come through on the damage. The concept (I believe, I might be wrong) is that since stamdk has "a lot" of dots, the stacking damage buff that applies to everything will synergize with every dot tick. Unfortunately for us, the damage buff is so low at 'full' stacks that it's essentially worthless. So good in concept, terrible in execution.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

ecru wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Obsidian shard is in an awkward place, the mag morph fills the high heal class healing ability niche. Breath of Life (Templar), Blood Sacrifice (Necro), Matriarch (Sorc), Bursting Vines (Warden), Healthy Offering (NB). The Stam morph isn't too bad it's just clunky.

I agree. Persobally i'd like the stam fist thingy to be melee, like whip. Cover yer arm with rock then hit them with a stone fist. Litteral stone fist not... stone orbie that flies after doing a small aoe. You hit the enemy like a brick with a haymaker made of stone. For loads of physical damage. Setting them staggered 3 times then last punch hits extra hard due to the 2 staggers and stuns. (would perhaps increase the damage a bit to compensate for melee range)
Instant, fun to look at, feels powerful and less clunky with no hidden cast times

The idea behind stonefist is solid, but it doesn't come through on the damage. The concept (I believe, I might be wrong) is that since stamdk has "a lot" of dots, the stacking damage buff that applies to everything will synergize with every dot tick. Unfortunately for us, the damage buff is so low at 'full' stacks that it's essentially worthless. So good in concept, terrible in execution.

I actually get a great deal of DPS with stone fist on my Stam DK, particularly when compared to using noxious breath or wrecking blow as main spammable. Once you get the hang or 100% up time of stagger stacks, you can see big gains in group content and make the tanks join easier. But I can't deny how clunky it is. Until ZOS makes any of the major DPS passives trigger off the ability, it is kinda average.

Jodynn

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Obsidian shard is in an awkward place, the mag morph fills the high heal class healing ability niche. Breath of Life (Templar), Blood Sacrifice (Necro), Matriarch (Sorc), Bursting Vines (Warden), Healthy Offering (NB). The Stam morph isn't too bad it's just clunky.

I agree. Persobally i'd like the stam fist thingy to be melee, like whip. Cover yer arm with rock then hit them with a stone fist. Litteral stone fist not... stone orbie that flies after doing a small aoe. You hit the enemy like a brick with a haymaker made of stone. For loads of physical damage. Setting them staggered 3 times then last punch hits extra hard due to the 2 staggers and stuns. (would perhaps increase the damage a bit to compensate for melee range)
Instant, fun to look at, feels powerful and less clunky with no hidden cast times

The idea behind stonefist is solid, but it doesn't come through on the damage. The concept (I believe, I might be wrong) is that since stamdk has "a lot" of dots, the stacking damage buff that applies to everything will synergize with every dot tick. Unfortunately for us, the damage buff is so low at 'full' stacks that it's essentially worthless. So good in concept, terrible in execution.

I actually get a great deal of DPS with stone fist on my Stam DK, particularly when compared to using noxious breath or wrecking blow as main spammable. Once you get the hang or 100% up time of stagger stacks, you can see big gains in group content and make the tanks join easier. But I can't deny how clunky it is. Until ZOS makes any of the major DPS passives trigger off the ability, it is kinda average.

The initial cast time still feels like ***.

Jodynn

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

PVE Stam DK player here, asking a serious question to anyone that has an answer for me. Does anyone at all use empowering morph for chains?

@ke.sardenb14_ESO
When I'm really bored and feel bad I don't use the skill; while farming antiquities or something RP/Overland like but still prefer unrelenting grip.

satanio

Is there anyone willing to post his/her best stamDK dummy parse, or the best seen?
Been witness to comments proclaiming that "stamina dd hit 90 - 95, and with upcoming changes to Iron Atro it will surely hit 100k". So, I just want to see if I am doing something wrong on my stamDK (84k dps) or that stamDK is actually the worst stamDD now.
Thanks

rrimöykk

I can do 82k on stamdk (on live), stamcros hit 94k and will break 100k after the dummy is fixed (on pts). We are far behind and have been for a year now.

I've seen a stamblade parse with vma staff on backbar hitting 92k (pts). Yeah, that's how crazy those two are.

ecru

Jodynn wrote: »

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Obsidian shard is in an awkward place, the mag morph fills the high heal class healing ability niche. Breath of Life (Templar), Blood Sacrifice (Necro), Matriarch (Sorc), Bursting Vines (Warden), Healthy Offering (NB). The Stam morph isn't too bad it's just clunky.

I agree. Persobally i'd like the stam fist thingy to be melee, like whip. Cover yer arm with rock then hit them with a stone fist. Litteral stone fist not... stone orbie that flies after doing a small aoe. You hit the enemy like a brick with a haymaker made of stone. For loads of physical damage. Setting them staggered 3 times then last punch hits extra hard due to the 2 staggers and stuns. (would perhaps increase the damage a bit to compensate for melee range)
Instant, fun to look at, feels powerful and less clunky with no hidden cast times

The idea behind stonefist is solid, but it doesn't come through on the damage. The concept (I believe, I might be wrong) is that since stamdk has "a lot" of dots, the stacking damage buff that applies to everything will synergize with every dot tick. Unfortunately for us, the damage buff is so low at 'full' stacks that it's essentially worthless. So good in concept, terrible in execution.

I actually get a great deal of DPS with stone fist on my Stam DK, particularly when compared to using noxious breath or wrecking blow as main spammable. Once you get the hang or 100% up time of stagger stacks, you can see big gains in group content and make the tanks join easier. But I can't deny how clunky it is. Until ZOS makes any of the major DPS passives trigger off the ability, it is kinda average.

The initial cast time still feels like ***.

Yeah this too. Blocking a weapon swap with what's supposed to be a spammable is a major annoyance.

satanio

rrimöykk wrote: »

I can do 82k on stamdk (on live), stamcros hit 94k and will break 100k after the dummy is fixed (on pts). We are far behind and have been for a year now.

I've seen a stamblade parse with vma staff on backbar hitting 92k (pts). Yeah, that's how crazy those two are.

Yeah, that's why I ask for the parses, cause you never know what one might oversee, some crazy build for full HA rotation or whatnot.
So far, what I've tried is:
vMA DW/vMA bow + Rele + Deadly - dot static rotation with rapid strikes = 82k+

AY front bar nirnhoned 2h/vBRP DW (both Infused and with Berserker and Poison enchant) + Rele + Sele - dot dynamic rotation with Stone Giant with executioner spam starting at 30% or lower = 82k+

AY front bar Charged 2h/vBRP DW (both Infused and with Flame and Poison enchant) + Rele + Zaan - dot dynamic rotation with Stone Giant with executioner spam starting at 30% or lower = 84k+

I have also came up to the conclusion that stam DK does not have the BIS monster set (until the recent patch it was MAW, bonus burning status ). Selene is not performing as good as on other classes if using StoneGiant (cause it is ranged), Stormfist, veli, domihaus are meh. I think that there is no good monster set that would support the stamDK theme or synergize well with any of the DK passives. Poison based Monster sets basically (who wants to heavy attack?) do not exist, all that the PvE stamina gets again and again is disease dmg based monster sets. Fire base sets have very "stamina-unfriendly" 1pc bonuses. Dmg wise, of course, Zaan is the best even on stamDK, but I am not sure if the dps loss bcs of 1pc is not what invalidates the Zaan dps on stamDD.

What is left to try for me are these set ups, they may be the best...
AY front bar DW/vMA bow + Rele + Selene, dynamic rota
AY front bar DW/vBRP DW + Rele + Selene, dynamic rota
And I guess that trying bow/bow would be a complete waste of time.

Hotdog_23

satanio wrote: »

rrimöykk wrote: »

I can do 82k on stamdk (on live), stamcros hit 94k and will break 100k after the dummy is fixed (on pts). We are far behind and have been for a year now.

I've seen a stamblade parse with vma staff on backbar hitting 92k (pts). Yeah, that's how crazy those two are.

Yeah, that's why I ask for the parses, cause you never know what one might oversee, some crazy build for full HA rotation or whatnot.
So far, what I've tried is:
vMA DW/vMA bow + Rele + Deadly - dot static rotation with rapid strikes = 82k+

AY front bar nirnhoned 2h/vBRP DW (both Infused and with Berserker and Poison enchant) + Rele + Sele - dot dynamic rotation with Stone Giant with executioner spam starting at 30% or lower = 82k+

AY front bar Charged 2h/vBRP DW (both Infused and with Flame and Poison enchant) + Rele + Zaan - dot dynamic rotation with Stone Giant with executioner spam starting at 30% or lower = 84k+

I have also came up to the conclusion that stam DK does not have the BIS monster set (until the recent patch it was MAW, bonus burning status ). Selene is not performing as good as on other classes if using StoneGiant (cause it is ranged), Stormfist, veli, domihaus are meh. I think that there is no good monster set that would support the stamDK theme or synergize well with any of the DK passives. Poison based Monster sets basically (who wants to heavy attack?) do not exist, all that the PvE stamina gets again and again is disease dmg based monster sets. Fire base sets have very "stamina-unfriendly" 1pc bonuses. Dmg wise, of course, Zaan is the best even on stamDK, but I am not sure if the dps loss bcs of 1pc is not what invalidates the Zaan dps on stamDD.

What is left to try for me are these set ups, they may be the best...
AY front bar DW/vMA bow + Rele + Selene, dynamic rota
AY front bar DW/vBRP DW + Rele + Selene, dynamic rota
And I guess that trying bow/bow would be a complete waste of time.

Stamina Dragonknight - 88k - Stonethorn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_R0myK4sBQ

ESO Stonethorn - Stamina Dragonknight [87.5k] - Easy Rotation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJomLgJENQE

Be safe and have fun

Olupajmibanan

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

rrimöykk wrote: »

I can do 82k on stamdk (on live), stamcros hit 94k and will break 100k after the dummy is fixed (on pts). We are far behind and have been for a year now.

I've seen a stamblade parse with vma staff on backbar hitting 92k (pts). Yeah, that's how crazy those two are.

Yeah, that's why I ask for the parses, cause you never know what one might oversee, some crazy build for full HA rotation or whatnot.
So far, what I've tried is:
vMA DW/vMA bow + Rele + Deadly - dot static rotation with rapid strikes = 82k+

AY front bar nirnhoned 2h/vBRP DW (both Infused and with Berserker and Poison enchant) + Rele + Sele - dot dynamic rotation with Stone Giant with executioner spam starting at 30% or lower = 82k+

AY front bar Charged 2h/vBRP DW (both Infused and with Flame and Poison enchant) + Rele + Zaan - dot dynamic rotation with Stone Giant with executioner spam starting at 30% or lower = 84k+

I have also came up to the conclusion that stam DK does not have the BIS monster set (until the recent patch it was MAW, bonus burning status ). Selene is not performing as good as on other classes if using StoneGiant (cause it is ranged), Stormfist, veli, domihaus are meh. I think that there is no good monster set that would support the stamDK theme or synergize well with any of the DK passives. Poison based Monster sets basically (who wants to heavy attack?) do not exist, all that the PvE stamina gets again and again is disease dmg based monster sets. Fire base sets have very "stamina-unfriendly" 1pc bonuses. Dmg wise, of course, Zaan is the best even on stamDK, but I am not sure if the dps loss bcs of 1pc is not what invalidates the Zaan dps on stamDD.

What is left to try for me are these set ups, they may be the best...
AY front bar DW/vMA bow + Rele + Selene, dynamic rota
AY front bar DW/vBRP DW + Rele + Selene, dynamic rota
And I guess that trying bow/bow would be a complete waste of time.

Stamina Dragonknight - 88k - Stonethorn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_R0myK4sBQ

ESO Stonethorn - Stamina Dragonknight [87.5k] - Easy Rotation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJomLgJENQE

Be safe and have fun

From what I understand, he asks for Markarth parses and the results he mentioned are also from Markarth.

I understand his concerns, because PTS is full of stamina parses (be it stamblade, stamnecro, heck even stamden) of 90-95k claiming that stamina can do it with ease. I am also yet to see 90k+ stamDK parse from Markarth. So far, these claims seems to be from people that forget that stamina doesn't involve only three classes.

satanio

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

From what I understand, he asks for Markarth parses and the results he mentioned are also from Markarth.

I understand his concerns, because PTS is full of stamina parses (be it stamblade, stamnecro, heck even stamden) of 90-95k claiming that stamina can do it with ease. I am also yet to see 90k+ stamDK parse from Markarth. So far, these claims seems to be from people that forget that stamina doesn't involve only three classes.

Of course. Am I not on the PTS forums?

Olupajmibanan

I am too tired to try more.

Looking at all those 95k PTS parses I can definitely say that stamDK is deeply under his other stamina colleagues.

stefj68

DK is on one leg, stamplar his dead