DK dead Class?

TrinityBreaker

evoniee wrote: »

magdk is a beast at dueling, what tf r u talking about

That may or may not be true, however, there is more aspects to this game than dueling.

Banana

Maybe no love in these notes. But no nerfs either

Sleep724

Banana wrote: »

Maybe no love in these notes. But no nerfs either

Major mending was nerfed. So another indirect nerf to the class.

MincVinyl

Sleep724 wrote: »

Huh, been wondering why take flight has been taking a number of button smashes to work. Another bug that I don’t see getting fixed anytime soon.

I could see more stam DKs running 7th legion to combine with the major endurance buff to achieve well over 2k health recovery. However I don’t know if that will help enough in medium armor even.

simple dont run medium armor.....it has been *** since dodge chance got removed from shuffle. If you do the math to convert all the passives into sustain a heavy armor build comes out to be somewhere around 600 recovery more all the time. Even more so since medium's biggest sustain gain was from roll dodging off cooldown. Heavy would be like 900 recov more if you just roll dodge when it is actually needed.....blocking is better in most situations anyways.

ebix_

I tested it on pts and I can assure you sustain feels much better on magdk , intellect buff solves sustain problem of dk and I will switch back to magdk for sure .
as for tanks I think dragonblood was buffed last patch and major mending nerf will only make it feel like prebuff, dk is still the best tank .
what sux however is pvp stamdk , but even then with options like naga shaman or crimson twilight on backbar dk wont have any problem on healing .

Jodynn

I recently looked over all the passives of every class and active abilities, and ALL need rebalanced, but these are my feelings on MagDK specifically and want to say three major things we lack are damage buff passives, resource increase passives and resource sustain passives.

Through testing on Dunmer I can say sustain is terrible unless you use parse food which isn't exactly great for actual content since you have 11k health; without parse food it just feels like spell symmetry is your Spammable. I can also say I am doing substantially less damage than before, as expected by the nerfs but this doesn't feel balanced due to stam being better off than they were even if stamDK is one of the worst stam classes in PvE.

Draconic Power.. The Tank or PvP skill line. It needs to do something useful in PvE for MagDK; Be a great area for damage/resource/sustain passives
Passives

• Iron Skin is tank
• Burning Heart is tank or Pvp
• Elder Dragon is tank or Pvp EXCEPT the range, which is greatly appreciate except it still doesn't affect trap beast.
• Scaled armor is tank or pvp.

Active

• Volatile Armor is pure PvP; Make it do fire damage and not terribly low damage. Make the other morph something useful.
• Burning Talons is useless without elfbane; Make it 10 seconds long
• Coagulating blood is pure PvP, but on that subject is should have something other than Health Recovery Major Buff, absolutely useless to have considering most magDKs use tri pots in pvp and health recovery in PvE is laughable at best; Make it have a purge for one negative effect
• Protective Scales are tank and PvP; this skills is great for both things.
• Inhale, good for PvP, it would be nice to see inhale have a better use in PvE, maybe increase damage based on enemies.

Ardent Flame, our most defining part
Passives

• Combustion doesn't give near enough sustain even with a charged staff ( around 300 per second, without building it's around 150 per second ), the buffs to intellect help elsewhere but it doesn't help much ( only like 100 or so regen which is taken away from magickasteal by double ) unless you use parse/sustain food which then you have to sacrifice even more damage for health if you want it to be viable
• Warmth is only sort of useful in PvP or support
• Searing heat should have a secondary effect, it just buffs skills that should have it innately.
• World in Ruin should affect poison AoE too, it's not like there are that many poison AoEs anyways.

Active

• Molten whip seething stacks should make it cost less per stack, 20, 40, and 60% less.
• Burning Embers, you took away my damage morph
• Engulfing Flames is in a good spot
• Fiery grip is a tank/pvp thing, Neither morph should really be touched even if I never use it.
• Inferno, I wish I could have both morphs in PvP and arenas; flames of oblivion should burst into an AoE on impact instead of flying two random fireballs.

Earthen Heart, what should support
Passives

• Eternal Mountain should do something other than extend duration as this should be innate to the skills
• Battle roar needs an increase and a cap to balance it.
• Minor Brutality is my class buff, doesn't help me, whatever; Ultimate gen should be on cast OR damage done, only ability magDK uses is Eruption, every 18 seconds, a 6 seconds cooldown on this passive.
• Helping hands is great for tank and PvP; but for PvE it doesn't provide anything.

Active

• Stonefist.. Not a mag dps thing but.. Obsidian Shard should not need a target it should just heal to make healers actually somewhat viable. Stamfist shouldn't have a cast time period, it should just all be instant.
• Molten Armaments', and Igneous weapon, this skill really tilts me because it has so much potential and all it does it provide major sorcery/brutality that is best found elsewhere, or heavy attack damage which in PvE both are basically useless. It looks so cool and is such a nice concept, but it's delivery is terrible. It should give more damage/sustain/fire/poison light attack damage/SOMETHING
• Obsidian Shield; StamDK and Tanks relied on this buff to stay alive, you nerfed Major Mending to a point of disregard, it needs compensation. One morph should be a Magicka Based shield with mendnig as well.
• Petrify; Shattering rocks is pretty.. dumb, Fossilize is the best cc in PvP.. leave it alone as it's defining and I'm willing to have this be a pure PvP skill given it's power.
• Eruption; The radius should be wider for Healers, only complaint is the passives for this skill, it works pretty well other than that even if it costs an arm and a leg.

honey_badger82

unless I missed something.... Noxious breath in it's current version applies major fracture not breach. The update notes stated major and minor fracture are no more. There is no updates to DK so I am assuming this ability is losing fracture and not gaining breach since in no place I saw was this skill adressed... so how again are they the only stam class that has access to breach?

relentless_turnip

evoniee wrote: »

magdk is a beast at dueling, what tf r u talking about

Yeah if I'm duelling I get my magdk. It has poor mobility compared to other classes, but you can't have it all.

relentless_turnip

Was this conceived because they reduced the major vitality buff?

I would say both mag and Stam DK are far from dead.

ecru

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Was this conceived because they reduced the major vitality buff?

I would say both mag and Stam DK are far from dead.

Stamdk is terrible and has absolutely nothing to offer compared to any other class aside from leap. There is nothing it does better than any other class aside from the ult. The fact that it has breach and still does completely mediocre damage compared to every other class should tell you all you need to know about how "good" Stamdk is. Recovery is terrible and based on using an ult when you don't want to, and you get almost zero benefit from slotting and using class abilities with it's major "passive" being proccing poisoned, which is a total joke. I almost never run into good players playing stamdk anymore because they've all moved onto something else, nearly every stamdk I meet is just fodder who hasn't gotten the hint yet.

Even stamdk dots are bad. Venomous claw being backloaded so the majority of the damage only happens during the last few ticks is terrible design because it doesn't work the way you want dots to. You want dots to provide pressure, not a tiny burst window of a few large ticks after 8-10 seconds, but it's so weak for the first 4-5 ticks that other players barely notice it. If you're really unlucky after it has tickled your opponent a few times, it's purged off and you get to start the cycle of hoping it actually lasts over 8 seconds again until it actually starts doing some damage. It's bad enough that venomous Smite gives you more pressure on an opponent than what is supposed to be the best class dot in the game, so now every player can just slot that set and enjoy more pressure on an opponent than stamdk dots could ever provide.

Olupajmibanan

ecru wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Was this conceived because they reduced the major vitality buff?

I would say both mag and Stam DK are far from dead.

Stamdk is terrible and has absolutely nothing to offer compared to any other class aside from leap. There is nothing it does better than any other class aside from the ult. The fact that it has breach and still does completely mediocre damage compared to every other class should tell you all you need to know about how "good" Stamdk is. Recovery is terrible and based on using an ult when you don't want to, and you get almost zero benefit from slotting and using class abilities with it's major "passive" being proccing poisoned, which is a total joke. I almost never run into good players playing stamdk anymore because they've all moved onto something else, nearly every stamdk I meet is just fodder who hasn't gotten the hint yet.

Even stamdk dots are bad. Venomous claw being backloaded so the majority of the damage only happens during the last few ticks is terrible design because it doesn't work the way you want dots to. You want dots to provide pressure, not a tiny burst window of a few large ticks after 8-10 seconds, but it's so weak for the first 4-5 ticks that other players barely notice it. If you're really unlucky after it has tickled your opponent a few times, it's purged off and you get to start the cycle of hoping it actually lasts over 8 seconds again until it actually starts doing some damage. It's bad enough that venomous Smite gives you more pressure on an opponent than what is supposed to be the best class dot in the game, so now every player can just slot that set and enjoy more pressure on an opponent than stamdk dots could ever provide.

Could making Searing Strike and Fiery Breath unpurgeable help?

I can speak only from magDK perspective, but having unpurgeable Engulfing Flames and Burning Embers would go a long way. It's the biggest shame that magDK, which is supposed to be the Attrition playstyle king, can be hard-countered with single button. You remember what happened when Magblades cried that DK was able to hard-counter their combo with single button (Reflect Wings)?

With unpurgeable noxious and venom claw, you could tinker some very nice builds (e.g. some maelstrom DW PvP build).

Urzigurumash

High_Solar wrote: »

how again are they the only stam class that has access to breach?

Word on the street is that Noxious and Caltrops both have Major Breach on PTS. I guess in lieu of a specific note that Breach/Fracture was removed from a skill, any skill having either was converted to the new Breach.

ecru wrote: »

Stamdk is terrible and has absolutely nothing to offer compared to any other class aside from leap. There is nothing it does better than any other class aside from the ult.

I feel as though the resource restoration from casting any Ult is the main thing StamDK has going for it that's hard to replicate on another class. You could simulate the effect with Witchman's, and Bone Goliath does confer a sort of "comeback", but I've never been able to achieve the sort of comeback victory with Goliath that I can with Leap and Corrosive, although I'm not very experienced with Necro.

If these PTS notes go live, apparently we're the only class with AoE Breach not tied to a ground-cast (i.e. Unnerving Boneyard and Caltrops). For me, the main issue with other classes is the lack of a reliable instant cast burst heal like GDB, besides Sorc's Dark Conversion. Necro and Warden may have better self-healing overall, but it's much more high maintenance, in my view. However if there's one thing that really strikes me when playing another class, it's how weak my Heavy Attacks are. I would argue overall these are the StamDK's unique strong points: the Ult comeback, easy access to Penetration in Noxious and Corrosive, and the Heavy Attack buff of Molten Armaments.

I would advocate for a tune-up of these 3 features more than anything.

Recapitated

Urzigurumash wrote: »

High_Solar wrote: »

how again are they the only stam class that has access to breach?

Word on the street is that Noxious and Caltrops both have Major Breach on PTS. I guess in lieu of a specific note that Breach/Fracture was removed from a skill, any skill having either was converted to the new Breach.

ecru wrote: »

Stamdk is terrible and has absolutely nothing to offer compared to any other class aside from leap. There is nothing it does better than any other class aside from the ult.

I feel as though the resource restoration from casting any Ult is the main thing StamDK has going for it that's hard to replicate on another class. You could simulate the effect with Witchman's, and Bone Goliath does confer a sort of "comeback", but I've never been able to achieve the sort of comeback victory with Goliath that I can with Leap and Corrosive, although I'm not very experienced with Necro.

If these PTS notes go live, apparently we're the only class with AoE Breach not tied to a ground-cast (i.e. Unnerving Boneyard and Caltrops). For me, the main issue with other classes is the lack of a reliable instant cast burst heal like GDB, besides Sorc's Dark Conversion. Necro and Warden may have better self-healing overall, but it's much more high maintenance, in my view. However if there's one thing that really strikes me when playing another class, it's how weak my Heavy Attacks are. I would argue overall these are the StamDK's unique strong points: the Ult comeback, easy access to Penetration in Noxious and Corrosive, and the Heavy Attack buff of Molten Armaments.

I would advocate for a tune-up of these 3 features more than anything.

I don't have the math handy, but the pseudo-regen from using ults is not great (and not boosted by bigger major end/int next patch, unlike recovery proper).

If I'm right, you're having to manage a comeback where other specs don't have anything to come back from.

Urzigurumash

Recapitated wrote: »

If I'm right, you're having to manage a comeback where other specs don't have anything to come back from.

That's a great point, and probably true, I guess I just enjoy the way the burst restoration plays. Far better to have it tied to a strong ultimate like Leap or Corrosive than Undo or Witchman's. It might not be the most competitive thing going but it is unique to StamDK.

Theignson

Lots of good points made here. The loss of major mending will be a big problem for stam DK in PvP. Already with the healing nerf, I have cauterize, vigor and Rally but they are all boosted by that 30% major mending which makes my sDK very tanky. With only a 10% boost playing solo might be compromised.

Not mentioned here is the dragon leap desync which has variably made leap impossible to use in PvP without dying.

Fossilize is the strongest CC in the game since it is a double cc . Forces opponents to burn resources.

It is sad that proc set dots are so much stronger than StamDK dots-- this should be reversed

Onefrkncrzypope

I say move the whip stacking proc to FOO and have a poison whip. Just damage plus something meh. No need for stam sustain the discount to poison would take care of that. Foo full stack makes it the old aoe flames that deals fire or poison damage which ever higher and does 2k more dps.

As for sdk heals. Link gdb to max health or max stam for the scaling which ever is higher. Burst heal and vigor should be enough for the sdk.

Olupajmibanan

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

I say move the whip stacking proc to FOO and have a poison whip. Just damage plus something meh. No need for stam sustain the discount to poison would take care of that. Foo full stack makes it the old aoe flames that deals fire or poison damage which ever higher and does 2k more dps.

As for sdk heals. Link gdb to max health or max stam for the scaling which ever is higher. Burst heal and vigor should be enough for the sdk.

You know that both Whip morphs are being used quite often?

And, how would stamDK rotation be different of a magDK? Hail=Blockade, Noxious=Engulfing, Venom Claw=Burning Embers, Barbed trap is for both, FoO is for both. Refresh everything and spam Whip. The only difference would be that stamDK has no erruption.

StamDK needs an actual identity and not be a poison copy of magDK.

Onefrkncrzypope

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

I say move the whip stacking proc to FOO and have a poison whip. Just damage plus something meh. No need for stam sustain the discount to poison would take care of that. Foo full stack makes it the old aoe flames that deals fire or poison damage which ever higher and does 2k more dps.

As for sdk heals. Link gdb to max health or max stam for the scaling which ever is higher. Burst heal and vigor should be enough for the sdk.

You know that both Whip morphs are being used quite often?

And, how would stamDK rotation be different of a magDK? Hail=Blockade, Noxious=Engulfing, Venom Claw=Burning Embers, Barbed trap is for both, FoO is for both. Refresh everything and spam Whip. The only difference would be that stamDK has no erruption.

StamDK needs an actual identity and not be a poison copy of magDK.

I mean whats a nightblade stam vs magblade differences?
or just stam vs mag? or just classes? aoes ulti and spammables just different colors.
I know whips are used more often that is why i say move one effect to foo.

Recapitated

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

I say move the whip stacking proc to FOO and have a poison whip. Just damage plus something meh. No need for stam sustain the discount to poison would take care of that. Foo full stack makes it the old aoe flames that deals fire or poison damage which ever higher and does 2k more dps.

As for sdk heals. Link gdb to max health or max stam for the scaling which ever is higher. Burst heal and vigor should be enough for the sdk.

You know that both Whip morphs are being used quite often?

And, how would stamDK rotation be different of a magDK? Hail=Blockade, Noxious=Engulfing, Venom Claw=Burning Embers, Barbed trap is for both, FoO is for both. Refresh everything and spam Whip. The only difference would be that stamDK has no erruption.

StamDK needs an actual identity and not be a poison copy of magDK.

I mean whats a nightblade stam vs magblade differences?
or just stam vs mag? or just classes? aoes ulti and spammables just different colors.
I know whips are used more often that is why i say move one effect to foo.

Could also decide what stonefist is -- a spammable? an aoe? a stun? dragon's appetite in your action bar?

Calypso589

Tank dependend on Major Mending from Obsidian Shield, nerfed without compensation.

@Thor199389

Eh? Major Mending is nice (and will continue to be in this context) but Green Dragon Blood scales off your current health. It will never not be a great "oh snap" heal.

Wing

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

I say move the whip stacking proc to FOO and have a poison whip. Just damage plus something meh. No need for stam sustain the discount to poison would take care of that. Foo full stack makes it the old aoe flames that deals fire or poison damage which ever higher and does 2k more dps.

As for sdk heals. Link gdb to max health or max stam for the scaling which ever is higher. Burst heal and vigor should be enough for the sdk.

You know that both Whip morphs are being used quite often?

And, how would stamDK rotation be different of a magDK? Hail=Blockade, Noxious=Engulfing, Venom Claw=Burning Embers, Barbed trap is for both, FoO is for both. Refresh everything and spam Whip. The only difference would be that stamDK has no erruption.

StamDK needs an actual identity and not be a poison copy of magDK.

I mean whats a nightblade stam vs magblade differences?
or just stam vs mag? or just classes? aoes ulti and spammables just different colors.
I know whips are used more often that is why i say move one effect to foo.

DK is the most obvious because its point blank regardless, and both versions try and use the exact same dots, shield, have the same mobility (or lack their of) etc.

its okay in duels because of the range restriction.

but what a DK does or is good at is just the most unconducive thing to Cyro or battle grounds.

but if i had to narrow and sum up. bad damage type in dots, no mobility, no range, any one of those negatives in a vacuum are fine, but each negative is exacerbated by the former and just becomes a trash class to try and force to work, your really better off playing ANYTHING ELSE.

DK literally brings nothing of value that you would not get on warden or necro and then some, i would class change in an instant if i could.

Urzigurumash

Wing wrote: »

but what a DK does or is good at is just the most unconducive thing to Cyro or battle grounds.

We're still as OP at Chaosball and Relic as we ever were, that counts for something, to me anyway

W0lf_z13

I've mained a mdk since 2016, I don't think it's a dead class. Sure the skills are fairly costly but im still hitting 82k parses on the trial dummy

techyeshic

I have all classes and I think as far as Cyrodiil goes with the testing going on; mDK has become my main. I just love how it plays as much as I love aesthetics. I have no idea how it performs in PVE though; and I run a build that is fun for me in large scale fights knowing I am missing some things in a straight 1v1. I defer to other players there

Jodynn

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

I've mained a mdk since 2016, I don't think it's a dead class. Sure the skills are fairly costly but im still hitting 82k parses on the trial dummy

Htting 87k as magDK on pts, 90k on live, also mained magDK for a long time; the problem isn't are we able to do stuff it's how well?

Sustaining is such a *** in actual content, and many passives and skills are useless in PvE context which is a shame because they are really cool skills or really cool concepts that just aren't... good.

DarknessShallFall

It's only dead if you don't know how to play it.

All classes can become overpowered if you play correctly or know how to.

Vizirith

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

If I'm right, you're having to manage a comeback where other specs don't have anything to come back from.

That's a great point, and probably true, I guess I just enjoy the way the burst restoration plays. Far better to have it tied to a strong ultimate like Leap or Corrosive than Undo or Witchman's. It might not be the most competitive thing going but it is unique to StamDK.

From a pve perspective that's fine but for pvp ult gen tied to ult cost not ult spent means that you ideally should be using your ult whenever it comes up, instead of combo-ing off it or using it to secure a kill.

DUTCH_REAPER

For me as I main a MDK as a dps a tank and in PVP I have to say the single most painful thing about DK is the cost of class skills. It is truly horrific compared to other classes. When a class has to slot a charged staff to sustain or is recommended to slot it that is a problem. Also as for pve I pull my highest parses using elf bane (imagine that a set that makes my dots last longer ) and oh by the way it’s a HEAVy armor set O.o

I’m not saying the DK is trash. Cuz it’s far from that. I have been here since beta and can tell you all it is in a much better place than 2-3 years ago for sure. Resource management is “almost” an issue for every class but the dks resource issue is monumental.

Some of the changes baffle me like flappers. Why the cool down on returning a fireball??? I mean if a pvper is not good enough to stop and wait for the buff to drop or cc me then he should die due to his poor gamesmanship skills. So basically bow users get a pass on this for sure bc of how it currently is. Pfft

Chains. The one that pulls targets to u. Why oh why oh why do you still have a stun immunity tied to it zos? Let me pull them in and fossilize them.

Venom claw - we said when you made the poison Knight to NOT put the damage scaling at the back end but I did it anyways?

Obsidian shard skill tree. Seriously just delete it and start fresh. It sucked then and it sucks now.

Idk. It’s my favorite class to play. But it needs some love. Just a smidge.

Recapitated

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Chains. The one that pulls targets to u. Why oh why oh why do you still have a stun immunity tied to it zos? Let me pull them in and fossilize them.

That seems excessive. Snare, gain major expedition, and then drop the strongest CC in the game? Fossilize is rough to cope with on mag classes, the main way to deal with it is to not be in range.

I would rather some mobility options, maybe on wings.

Urzigurumash

@Recapitated

You've misquoted me but I agree with both you and @DUTCH_REAPER, a slight tune-up to Chains and Wings would go a long way. Wings does give pretty good mobility with the CC immunity though, it's a great evasive skill in my opinion.

Vizirith wrote: »

From a pve perspective that's fine but for pvp ult gen tied to ult cost not ult spent means that you ideally should be using your ult whenever it comes up, instead of combo-ing off it or using it to secure a kill.

Yes it would be stronger if it was Ult Spent, and would allow for better synergy with the strongest offensive Monster Set, Balorgh, although Balorgh now has poor synergy with Corrosive. I wasn't talking about PvE. My point was this burst restoration was something DK did better than any other class, so if it's something you like, it helps to keep the class alive, and if DK is underperforming, this passive might deserve a tune-up.