Why is this game so easy?

MartiniDaniels

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

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MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Indoril_Nerevar wrote: »

terrordactyl1971 wrote: »

Have you played the arenas, vet dungeons or trials yet?

Wow.

He literally said, essentially, that he was excluding that kind of content from this equation; post.

And 30 people or more will still agree with it. This is why the player community sucks and other players are better off without their opinion. Did you even read what he posted or did you just want to read your own post? Kind of like people who enjoy hearing themselves talk...?

Nerevar Out.

There is another thread with poll right now. More then 50% of forum members support optional veteran mode. And there was 30-pages thread with more then 100 likes... Maybe not majority, but substantial part of player base want this and ZOS must consider adding it. Of course it is tricky because ZOS can't do it without adding monetization and adding mode with higher difficulty/rewards for extra fee will be immediately labeled pay-to-win. I think in the moment when ZOS figure out how to sell it without offending those who don't want to use it, this idea will go to production.

Edit: there was L2R issue on my side.

It's not a substantial part, it is a very vocal minority that constantly upvotes each other. The person that made the new poll was mad because the last 4 threads on this topic have already shown the opposite so why not make another one 🤥🤥🤥🤥

Of course, this topic can't be brought up without the people fighting for it bringing up more rewards 🙄🙄🙄.
You. Don't. Need. More. Rewards. For. Easy. Overland. Content.

Odd they want more difficulty but that part is always just glossed over, like "yeah, yeah overland's not hard, but let me tell you about the things you could give me for clearing it." 😔😔😔

Plz show me last 4 polls. As a regular forum reader, I don't remember 4 polls on the matter as of late. I only see non-stop stream of polls to delete animation cancelling/guild traders and each time those polls fail, despite their authors and supporters claims that they are majority and others are "vocal minority".

The person that made the new poll was mad because the last 4 threads on this topic have already shown the opposite so why not make another one

I said threads not polls but this could be an insight into why these topics keep coming up and the only answers you have to detractors are "don't talk about the points that prove us wrong, we only want to discuss what we want"

What thread showed opposite? Every thread have different topic starter and then ~10 people repeating the same page after page. Closest consensus we had is an optional mode in form of difficulty slider with de-buff to player and with cosmetic rewards attached for some grand achievement. I don't see it as total rejection of mode by community.
And even this thread though controversial (no OPTIONAL word in it's title or text), has 64 likes and nearest counter-argument has 45 likes. So 64 vs 45 = 60% for harder overland. Of course such small numbers are not representative, but it is more then enough to talk about that request for OPTIONAL harder overland comes from substantial amount of players and not some mythical "vocal minority".

Moose_Scout

Agreed that the overland needs more spice and danger. IT IS OKAY TO DIE, ZOS.


They love rainbows and sunshine--but will ultimately lose in the long run because they don't know a simple psychological principal: challenges motivate people. But hard challenges need worthy rewards.

[Snip]

This has been an issue since One Tamriel, so don't hold your breath.

[Snip] They are good at building content but are poor on adjusting details.
Especially compared to Indy companies like POE (Grinding Gear Games) who are totally fine having difficult content.

They got hit with a guar once and nerfed the entire world.

They got ganked by a NB once and nerfed the class to oblivion instead of learning that they are easy to counter.

vDSA was too hard so "Masters weapons for everyone!"


[Edited for bashing]

wild_kmacdb16_ESO

It's difficult to make compelling solo play in MMOs due to the nature of MMO combat; it all boils down to a numbers game, even if this one is more action oriented.

Upping a mobs health significantly will only make people see mobs as an annoyance to avoid when possible;
Upping their damage to world boss levels will make players frustrated and quit
Doing anything less than those 2 things above means you probably wont die anyway, so why bother?


In traditional MMOs, pulling 'adds' is probably the #1 way folks died and maybe that could be explored here; more patrolling packs of monsters.

Rave the Histborn

wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »

It's difficult to make compelling solo play in MMOs due to the nature of MMO combat; it all boils down to a numbers game, even if this one is more action oriented.

Upping a mobs health significantly will only make people see mobs as an annoyance to avoid when possible;
Upping their damage to world boss levels will make players frustrated and quit
Doing anything less than those 2 things above means you probably wont die anyway, so why bother?


In traditional MMOs, pulling 'adds' is probably the #1 way folks died and maybe that could be explored here; more patrolling packs of monsters.

Pulling dungeon adds is the #1 way folks died in MMOs, not pulling overland adds

Everest_Lionheart

Today I died in overworld content. Granted it was a boss fight where I forgot to use food, equipped the wrong potion, forgot to activate my bear and didn’t get my heal over time down before jumping in the bosses face and getting swallowed by all the adds, but I still died!

I laughed, the boss laughed, the other players laughed, even the mudcrabs on that particular beach laughed! It was glorious! 😆

Isarii

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

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Isarii wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

StormeReigns wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

StormeReigns wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

Here, I made this video earlier today, I'll post it JUST for you, pudding.

My naked, CP-less, skill-less brand new character with no stats and no buffs killing an elite enemy in the overworld, pressing two buttons: The directional arrow key "left", and the "1" key.

I finish the fight with 100% health.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB-3LANzQAQ&feature=youtu.be

EDIT: sorry, I forgot that I used break free once, or maybe twice, I don't remember. In case you accuse me of lying, or something.


EDIT 2: The resolution is awful, I think it takes some time for youtube to process it into 1080 quality...

My favorite part is the mention of being Skill-less, while utilizing skill. I.E: Years of accumulated knowledge of how certain mobs work, in this case gryphons and how to move to limit damage and avoid melee combat, spamming skull from range to maximize cheese to try to make point that every single new player will know this and will have the same outcome in every single encounter cause your personal experience dictates and defines every encounter for every single player.

Wow.

You are seriously telling me that new players won't know about the directional arrow keys?

Really?

No, your telling everyone that your actions, encounters and experience speak for every and all players, new and old. You explicitly and countless times in this thread and others stated this. You have already mentally set yourself to believe that your personal encounters, no matter if new character or fully built, that everyone (especially brand new players with zero knowledge of the game) in every single outcome will drop any overworld mob, be it normal, elite or worldboss/dragon in matter of mere seconds cause you and a select few find it personally easy.

So, since Overland is SO easy. How come in this video that I made especially just for you the random player that visited the WB I was soloing happened to die a few times despite your claims of every single aspect of OL being painfully easy?

https://youtu.be/hBBgzsTN3ZI

According to your logic, since I was able to survive and beat it, the random player (at 03:49) should have been able to do the exact same thing and not die at all no matter what, even if they had zero knowledge of the fight, no CP, poor gear or low in levels.

I'm saying it's really easy for people who aren't terrible.

That's why we need a difficulty OPTION.

I didn't say (nor have I EVER said) that it should be hardmode for everyone.

I'm saying if that if you cannot do this content, then you aren't good at video games. That's fine, there are other things in life that I am also terrible at that those people excel at.

But in this video game it would be nice if we had a difficulty toggle so that people who aren't terrible at it can make things challenging and dangerous, so it would be more engaging.


Again you're trying to make this straw-man argument that I just want to up the difficulty of everything, everywhere for everyone without any consideration of newbies or baddies.

When I started this game it was horribly easy. When I tried this game again with a different class it was very very easy for me. When I came several months later it was still very easy. When Tamriel Unlimited came out - astoundingly - it became even easier. For me, and for the majority of players who aren't bad.

Of course there is a percentage of players who are bad. Only an idiot would think otherwise, and I am not an idiot. Quit trying to make me out to be one, and just acknowledge that a very large portion of players - impossible to say what percentage, my gut tells me that it's two thirds, at least (probably more like 90 percent) - has no trouble WHATSOEVER with this mindless content.

So I'm confused, do you think adding a debuff on to yourself is going to make an enemy that you can hold left and light attack more difficult or just take longer? It sounds like if you add 1 million hp to it then you're still going to be doing the same thing just for significantly longer and that isn't increased difficulty. I think thats a major disconnect for the overland difficulty crowd, the reality that more hp doesn't = more difficulty, because in your own words, "I forgot that I used break free once, or maybe twice, I don't remember." you're not going to be challenged on overland by mechanics.

My other problem is the constant thinking they need to be rewarded for everything they do. You don’t need or deserve extra rewards because you intentionally gimped yourself and made a normal enemy take longer.

I actually disagree with your premise here - one of the problems with overland difficulty right now is that everything is easily killed before mobs or bosses even have a chance to use any abilities. As a result, raising TTK even moderately would result in a tangible difficulty increase because the mechanics that never even have a chance to be seen now would be re-introduced.

That said, I don't think anyone is asking for something as limited as just raising the mob HP pool. Ideally a harder mode world tier would include:

• Higher TTK (duh)
• Higher mob damage
• Faster cast on mob abilities and heavy attacks
• Higher damage on avoidable mechanics like the above

No one is asking for Dark Souls combat here, but even something as simple as just making mobs live long enough to use a heavy attack and making that heavy attack actually punishing if not blocked would be a huge improvement over the current overland combat.

Players need to have some reason to react to what their PvE opponents are doing. Any reason at all. That's the core of what needs to change.

You keep trying to compare ESO to other games but you don't seem to realize games that have changed their TTK do so to overwhelmingly negative responses.

Just because I suddenly get bashed more often doesn't make my combat more difficult, I can still nuke things down, it does however make it way more annoying. That's why vet dungeons and trials exist, because mechanics are supposed to more than just relentlessly stunning you.

Since we're talking about other games, the system I've brought up for comparison is world tiers, which are fundamental to the experience in games like Diablo 3, The Division 1 and 2, etc... There's been no negative response to those systems at all, because they're incentivized, opt-in systems where the player chooses when they want to tackle harder content, which is exactly how ESO should do it.

The rest of your comment seems to be a weird strawman you've decided to construct and then tear apart, so I'm not really sure what to say there. Yeah, constantly being stunned would be annoying, but that has absolutely nothing to do with any of my suggestions.

Rave the Histborn

Isarii wrote: »

show previous quotes

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Isarii wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

StormeReigns wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

StormeReigns wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

Here, I made this video earlier today, I'll post it JUST for you, pudding.

My naked, CP-less, skill-less brand new character with no stats and no buffs killing an elite enemy in the overworld, pressing two buttons: The directional arrow key "left", and the "1" key.

I finish the fight with 100% health.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB-3LANzQAQ&feature=youtu.be

EDIT: sorry, I forgot that I used break free once, or maybe twice, I don't remember. In case you accuse me of lying, or something.


EDIT 2: The resolution is awful, I think it takes some time for youtube to process it into 1080 quality...

My favorite part is the mention of being Skill-less, while utilizing skill. I.E: Years of accumulated knowledge of how certain mobs work, in this case gryphons and how to move to limit damage and avoid melee combat, spamming skull from range to maximize cheese to try to make point that every single new player will know this and will have the same outcome in every single encounter cause your personal experience dictates and defines every encounter for every single player.

Wow.

You are seriously telling me that new players won't know about the directional arrow keys?

Really?

No, your telling everyone that your actions, encounters and experience speak for every and all players, new and old. You explicitly and countless times in this thread and others stated this. You have already mentally set yourself to believe that your personal encounters, no matter if new character or fully built, that everyone (especially brand new players with zero knowledge of the game) in every single outcome will drop any overworld mob, be it normal, elite or worldboss/dragon in matter of mere seconds cause you and a select few find it personally easy.

So, since Overland is SO easy. How come in this video that I made especially just for you the random player that visited the WB I was soloing happened to die a few times despite your claims of every single aspect of OL being painfully easy?

https://youtu.be/hBBgzsTN3ZI

According to your logic, since I was able to survive and beat it, the random player (at 03:49) should have been able to do the exact same thing and not die at all no matter what, even if they had zero knowledge of the fight, no CP, poor gear or low in levels.

I'm saying it's really easy for people who aren't terrible.

That's why we need a difficulty OPTION.

I didn't say (nor have I EVER said) that it should be hardmode for everyone.

I'm saying if that if you cannot do this content, then you aren't good at video games. That's fine, there are other things in life that I am also terrible at that those people excel at.

But in this video game it would be nice if we had a difficulty toggle so that people who aren't terrible at it can make things challenging and dangerous, so it would be more engaging.


Again you're trying to make this straw-man argument that I just want to up the difficulty of everything, everywhere for everyone without any consideration of newbies or baddies.

When I started this game it was horribly easy. When I tried this game again with a different class it was very very easy for me. When I came several months later it was still very easy. When Tamriel Unlimited came out - astoundingly - it became even easier. For me, and for the majority of players who aren't bad.

Of course there is a percentage of players who are bad. Only an idiot would think otherwise, and I am not an idiot. Quit trying to make me out to be one, and just acknowledge that a very large portion of players - impossible to say what percentage, my gut tells me that it's two thirds, at least (probably more like 90 percent) - has no trouble WHATSOEVER with this mindless content.

So I'm confused, do you think adding a debuff on to yourself is going to make an enemy that you can hold left and light attack more difficult or just take longer? It sounds like if you add 1 million hp to it then you're still going to be doing the same thing just for significantly longer and that isn't increased difficulty. I think thats a major disconnect for the overland difficulty crowd, the reality that more hp doesn't = more difficulty, because in your own words, "I forgot that I used break free once, or maybe twice, I don't remember." you're not going to be challenged on overland by mechanics.

My other problem is the constant thinking they need to be rewarded for everything they do. You don’t need or deserve extra rewards because you intentionally gimped yourself and made a normal enemy take longer.

I actually disagree with your premise here - one of the problems with overland difficulty right now is that everything is easily killed before mobs or bosses even have a chance to use any abilities. As a result, raising TTK even moderately would result in a tangible difficulty increase because the mechanics that never even have a chance to be seen now would be re-introduced.

That said, I don't think anyone is asking for something as limited as just raising the mob HP pool. Ideally a harder mode world tier would include:

• Higher TTK (duh)
• Higher mob damage
• Faster cast on mob abilities and heavy attacks
• Higher damage on avoidable mechanics like the above

No one is asking for Dark Souls combat here, but even something as simple as just making mobs live long enough to use a heavy attack and making that heavy attack actually punishing if not blocked would be a huge improvement over the current overland combat.

Players need to have some reason to react to what their PvE opponents are doing. Any reason at all. That's the core of what needs to change.

You keep trying to compare ESO to other games but you don't seem to realize games that have changed their TTK do so to overwhelmingly negative responses.

Just because I suddenly get bashed more often doesn't make my combat more difficult, I can still nuke things down, it does however make it way more annoying. That's why vet dungeons and trials exist, because mechanics are supposed to more than just relentlessly stunning you.

Since we're talking about other games, the system I've brought up for comparison is world tiers, which are fundamental to the experience in games like Diablo 3, The Division 1 and 2, etc... There's been no negative response to those systems at all, because they're incentivized, opt-in systems where the player chooses when they want to tackle harder content, which is exactly how ESO should do it.

The rest of your comment seems to be a weird strawman you've decided to construct and then tear apart, so I'm not really sure what to say there. Yeah, constantly being stunned would be annoying, but that has absolutely nothing to do with any of my suggestions.

Since we're talking about other games, the system I've brought up for comparison is world tiers, which are fundamental to the experience in games like Diablo 3, The Division 1 and 2, etc... There's been no negative response to those systems at all, because they're incentivized, opt-in systems where the player chooses when they want to tackle harder content, which is exactly how ESO should do it.

I guess I'll repeat myself for the millionth time, those games were designed around those systems and are completely different genres. They're games with very limited playability issues and in order to fix those problems they introduce what is essentially a new game+ but those come with drawbacks to. Diablo 3's difficulty didn't ever ramp up to the level you seem to be asking for in ESO where the normal dungeon enemies posed an actual threat and weren't just there to be mowed down. The only mode they had in there with any real difficulty is HC and that's because of character permadeath which I don't think most people are going to risk.

Linaleah

Isarii wrote: »

show previous quotes

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Isarii wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

StormeReigns wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

StormeReigns wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

Here, I made this video earlier today, I'll post it JUST for you, pudding.

My naked, CP-less, skill-less brand new character with no stats and no buffs killing an elite enemy in the overworld, pressing two buttons: The directional arrow key "left", and the "1" key.

I finish the fight with 100% health.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB-3LANzQAQ&feature=youtu.be

EDIT: sorry, I forgot that I used break free once, or maybe twice, I don't remember. In case you accuse me of lying, or something.


EDIT 2: The resolution is awful, I think it takes some time for youtube to process it into 1080 quality...

My favorite part is the mention of being Skill-less, while utilizing skill. I.E: Years of accumulated knowledge of how certain mobs work, in this case gryphons and how to move to limit damage and avoid melee combat, spamming skull from range to maximize cheese to try to make point that every single new player will know this and will have the same outcome in every single encounter cause your personal experience dictates and defines every encounter for every single player.

Wow.

You are seriously telling me that new players won't know about the directional arrow keys?

Really?

No, your telling everyone that your actions, encounters and experience speak for every and all players, new and old. You explicitly and countless times in this thread and others stated this. You have already mentally set yourself to believe that your personal encounters, no matter if new character or fully built, that everyone (especially brand new players with zero knowledge of the game) in every single outcome will drop any overworld mob, be it normal, elite or worldboss/dragon in matter of mere seconds cause you and a select few find it personally easy.

So, since Overland is SO easy. How come in this video that I made especially just for you the random player that visited the WB I was soloing happened to die a few times despite your claims of every single aspect of OL being painfully easy?

https://youtu.be/hBBgzsTN3ZI

According to your logic, since I was able to survive and beat it, the random player (at 03:49) should have been able to do the exact same thing and not die at all no matter what, even if they had zero knowledge of the fight, no CP, poor gear or low in levels.

I'm saying it's really easy for people who aren't terrible.

That's why we need a difficulty OPTION.

I didn't say (nor have I EVER said) that it should be hardmode for everyone.

I'm saying if that if you cannot do this content, then you aren't good at video games. That's fine, there are other things in life that I am also terrible at that those people excel at.

But in this video game it would be nice if we had a difficulty toggle so that people who aren't terrible at it can make things challenging and dangerous, so it would be more engaging.


Again you're trying to make this straw-man argument that I just want to up the difficulty of everything, everywhere for everyone without any consideration of newbies or baddies.

When I started this game it was horribly easy. When I tried this game again with a different class it was very very easy for me. When I came several months later it was still very easy. When Tamriel Unlimited came out - astoundingly - it became even easier. For me, and for the majority of players who aren't bad.

Of course there is a percentage of players who are bad. Only an idiot would think otherwise, and I am not an idiot. Quit trying to make me out to be one, and just acknowledge that a very large portion of players - impossible to say what percentage, my gut tells me that it's two thirds, at least (probably more like 90 percent) - has no trouble WHATSOEVER with this mindless content.

So I'm confused, do you think adding a debuff on to yourself is going to make an enemy that you can hold left and light attack more difficult or just take longer? It sounds like if you add 1 million hp to it then you're still going to be doing the same thing just for significantly longer and that isn't increased difficulty. I think thats a major disconnect for the overland difficulty crowd, the reality that more hp doesn't = more difficulty, because in your own words, "I forgot that I used break free once, or maybe twice, I don't remember." you're not going to be challenged on overland by mechanics.

My other problem is the constant thinking they need to be rewarded for everything they do. You don’t need or deserve extra rewards because you intentionally gimped yourself and made a normal enemy take longer.

I actually disagree with your premise here - one of the problems with overland difficulty right now is that everything is easily killed before mobs or bosses even have a chance to use any abilities. As a result, raising TTK even moderately would result in a tangible difficulty increase because the mechanics that never even have a chance to be seen now would be re-introduced.

That said, I don't think anyone is asking for something as limited as just raising the mob HP pool. Ideally a harder mode world tier would include:

• Higher TTK (duh)
• Higher mob damage
• Faster cast on mob abilities and heavy attacks
• Higher damage on avoidable mechanics like the above

No one is asking for Dark Souls combat here, but even something as simple as just making mobs live long enough to use a heavy attack and making that heavy attack actually punishing if not blocked would be a huge improvement over the current overland combat.

Players need to have some reason to react to what their PvE opponents are doing. Any reason at all. That's the core of what needs to change.

You keep trying to compare ESO to other games but you don't seem to realize games that have changed their TTK do so to overwhelmingly negative responses.

Just because I suddenly get bashed more often doesn't make my combat more difficult, I can still nuke things down, it does however make it way more annoying. That's why vet dungeons and trials exist, because mechanics are supposed to more than just relentlessly stunning you.

Since we're talking about other games, the system I've brought up for comparison is world tiers, which are fundamental to the experience in games like Diablo 3, The Division 1 and 2, etc... There's been no negative response to those systems at all, because they're incentivized, opt-in systems where the player chooses when they want to tackle harder content, which is exactly how ESO should do it.

The rest of your comment seems to be a weird strawman you've decided to construct and then tear apart, so I'm not really sure what to say there. Yeah, constantly being stunned would be annoying, but that has absolutely nothing to do with any of my suggestions.

all of those are instanced. no literally - all of those tiers are instanced. you don't opt in by playing in the same world as everyone else, you opt in by moving to a different instance.

if ESO does it that way? awesome. I mean... swtor has opt in difficulty selection for all of their story missions starting with few expansions ago. granted - its only for instanced missions and they literally had to resort to almost extreme instancing to accomplish this where the only open world left outside of vanilla zones - are daily areas and they didn't go and retroactively change original stories, only newly added expansions have this option. but they did it.

so if that's what ESO ends up doing, maybe no with graymoor but the following story DLC? it could work. they could pull it off. but that's not what OP is asking for, at least. (also there is a LOT of negative response to tuning in heroic and legendary difficulties in Division 2, as well as the fact that those particular difficulties have restricted checkpoints - in that if you die solo, you have to start over completely and believe it or not - players are NOT happy, to the point where massive is re-balancing some of that in upcoming, currently delayed patch)

eKsDee

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

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eKsDee wrote: »

Onigar wrote: »

If you are CP 810 and familiar with what you are doing then some content will be easy.

This does not mean you have to leave it easy.

take off your gear and jewelry. Just leave weapons and see how you get on.

If its still too easy for you then look at your skills.

Could you choose skills that don't need weapons. for instance have swords on a Mag dps char.

There is a lot you can do.

When fully equipped can you solo Vet dungeons?

In nHelRa can you solo to the first boss? if so can you do the same in vHelRa?

Come on, this is a game with so many possibilities. Don't just rely on the Dev team to set the bar. Push it up yourself!!

So in other words, play like a complete beginner? Serious question, how does that not sound off to you guys? "If you wanna have fun in overland, play like a complete beginner who is completely new to the game."

"If you wanna have fun in overland, play like a complete beginner who is completely new to the game."

Imagine being a vet player and saying something like this 😅😅. Serious question, does it not sound off to you? " If you wanna have fun in ESO, set the tutorial and overland difficulty to match the endgame."

Imagine if you said this irl, "If you wanna have fun in 1st grade math, solve like a complete beginner who is completely new to math"

Now, just so you know for when you actually get to endgame there's all this content made specifically for you (woweeee really????? You mean I don't have to just spend my time on overland??????). That is the content specifically geared to you.

Don't put words into my mouth. Not once did I ask for difficulty to be brought up to end game, and you know that, so stop trying to put words into my mouth to make me look bad.

Is it really so bad that I want to be able to enjoy the content that makes up the vast majority of this game's PvE content, and takes up the vast majority of Zenimax's attention and resources? After all, overland is meant to be for everyone.

I've even offered a solution that won't even affect other players, and won't result in extra instances being spun up, and yet you can't even give a concrete answer as to why that solution is a bad idea.

So rather than putting words in my mouth, maybe give an actual answer as to why something like a debuff shouldn't be introduced.

Rave the Histborn

eKsDee wrote: »

show previous quotes

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

eKsDee wrote: »

Onigar wrote: »

If you are CP 810 and familiar with what you are doing then some content will be easy.

This does not mean you have to leave it easy.

take off your gear and jewelry. Just leave weapons and see how you get on.

If its still too easy for you then look at your skills.

Could you choose skills that don't need weapons. for instance have swords on a Mag dps char.

There is a lot you can do.

When fully equipped can you solo Vet dungeons?

In nHelRa can you solo to the first boss? if so can you do the same in vHelRa?

Come on, this is a game with so many possibilities. Don't just rely on the Dev team to set the bar. Push it up yourself!!

So in other words, play like a complete beginner? Serious question, how does that not sound off to you guys? "If you wanna have fun in overland, play like a complete beginner who is completely new to the game."

"If you wanna have fun in overland, play like a complete beginner who is completely new to the game."

Imagine being a vet player and saying something like this 😅😅. Serious question, does it not sound off to you? " If you wanna have fun in ESO, set the tutorial and overland difficulty to match the endgame."

Imagine if you said this irl, "If you wanna have fun in 1st grade math, solve like a complete beginner who is completely new to math"

Now, just so you know for when you actually get to endgame there's all this content made specifically for you (woweeee really????? You mean I don't have to just spend my time on overland??????). That is the content specifically geared to you.

Don't put words into my mouth. Not once did I ask for difficulty to be brought up to end game, and you know that, so stop trying to put words into my mouth to make me look bad.

Is it really so bad that I want to be able to enjoy the content that makes up the vast majority of this game's PvE content, and takes up the vast majority of Zenimax's attention and resources? After all, overland is meant to be for everyone.

I've even offered a solution that won't even affect other players, and won't result in extra instances being spun up, and yet you can't even give a concrete answer as to why that solution is a bad idea.

I didn't I copy and pasted your quote and it's called

hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
"he vowed revenge with oaths and hyperboles"

obviously I don't think you mean that literally it should be endgame, but there are vets here saying the tutorials and first quests aren't hard which I mean obviously if you're a vet they'll be easy and the players that come in and say they're new to MMOs and that they aren't easy are scoffed off.

Is it really so bad that I want to be able to enjoy the content that makes up the vast majority of this game's PvE content, and takes up the vast majority of Zenimax's attention and resources? After all, overland is meant to be for everyone.

It is for everyone and just because it isn't the hardest difficulty ever (again hyperbole) doesn't mean it isn't for you. You're still able to do the stories and quests and get skyshards just like everyone else. Being meant for everyone means catering to no one because everyone has to be included, that included the difficulty. I'm sure if you opened up the question to the entire player base you'd be very surprised at how many people can't clear all the content that we've now deemed easy.

I've even offered a solution that won't even affect other players, and won't result in extra instances being spun up, and yet you can't even give a concrete answer as to why that solution is a bad idea.

So rather than putting words in my mouth, maybe give an actual answer as to why something like a debuff shouldn't be introduced.

I'm pretty sure if you took a second to not give me a snippy answer and looked at page 1 that was already discussed and the OP had to edit his post to reflect it. I'm not trying to be mean here but this is page 18 of the thread and you're getting mad because I haven't answered your specific point which was already answered on page 1.

eKsDee

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

I didn't I copy and pasted your quote and it's called

hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
"he vowed revenge with oaths and hyperboles"

So you're admitting that you're making *** up by exaggerating what I've said, in an effort to make me look bad? I don't even need to pull this apart to show how much of a *** this makes you look like.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

obviously I don't think you mean that literally it should be endgame, but there are vets here saying the tutorials and first quests aren't hard which I mean obviously if you're a vet they'll be easy and the players that come in and say they're new to MMOs and that they aren't easy are scoffed off.

And they aren't.

This is a discussion that is irrelevant to this thread (difficulty of overland for vets is entirely different to difficulty of overland overall), so I won't go too far into detail, but the tutorials barely even teach players how to properly play the game, then they're immediately thrown into an overland where nothing except world bosses and maybe public dungeons requires you to actually play the game properly.

Sure, have the first few zones players are introduced to the game within be easy, so players aren't immediately turned off, but by the time players reach the last few zones in their alliance, they should be difficult enough to where players are required to properly play the game. Actively use skills for damage instead of just light attacking or spamming the one skill, actively dodge and block attacks, move out of red, bash certain telegraphs, use food buffs, etc.

Why? Because literally everything outside of overland requires this, which I believe is part of the reason for the huge skill gap. Players come out of the tutorial, are thrown into an overland that takes "play how you want" way too literally, and when they start wanting to do group content, they start venturing into content where you can't literally play how you want, you must play as the game expects you to play.

There's a huge disconnect between overland and the rest of the game, that I believe is partly to blame for the huge skill gap. There's tools in place for even newer players to break the 15k DPS mark that they need to hit for most base game vet content (outside of vet trials), but because overland has coddled them and allowed them to form all these bad habits, they literally don't know how to use any of those tools, at all, by the time they hit 50 and start doing end game content.

Overland shouldn't be encouraging players to literally "play how you want", it should be coaxing players towards the proper style of play that is expected of them in the rest of the game.

I could go further and actually break down why I believe this is the case, but as I said, it's irrelevant to this thread, so I'll leave it here. All I'm arguing for in this thread is the introduction of a player-sided debuff, tied to a difficulty option, so that I can scale myself down and enjoy other 2/3's of the game I've paid for, and I'd still argue for such a debuff in an overhauled overland, too.

Next bit I'll respond to out of order, so I can better form a response.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Being meant for everyone means catering to no one because everyone has to be included, that included the difficulty.

And yet the difficulty currently caters to complete beginners who haven't learned how to properly play the game yet, so by your definition, it's not for everyone, it's for complete beginners, because the difficulty currently caters to them.

Even then, I disagree with your definition, because...

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

It is for everyone and just because it isn't the hardest difficulty ever (again hyperbole) doesn't mean it isn't for you. You're still able to do the stories and quests and get skyshards just like everyone else.

... I believe being for everyone should mean it is enjoyable for everyone, and currently it's not enjoyable for me, precisely because of the difficulty catering to complete beginners. I don't do questing in ESO because it puts me to sleep, because of the difficulty, or lack thereof.

To me, ESO questing currently plays like those "interactive movie experience" games like Heavy Rain or Beyond: Two Souls, which, while I enjoy in moderation provided the stories are captivating enough, I absolutely don't enjoy for extended periods of time, which ESO questing is.

There's a distinct lack of actual gameplay in ESO questing, currently it's just fluff used to complement the story content, which is fine and all if that's your thing, but it's not for me. I like it when they're both in the spotlight equally, and complement each other. Which is why I'm arguing for a personal difficulty increase, so I can bring the gameplay more in the spotlight for myself, without affecting other players.

So, no matter which definition you go with, overland is not for everyone, it's for complete beginners and the more casual players who either haven't yet learned how to properly play the game, or prefer gameplay to take a back seat over story. And what I'm trying to point out is this contradiction and hypocrisy that's going on in these discussions, whenever people say no to personal difficulty increases, because it goes to show that overland is indeed not for everyone, but for complete beginners and the more casual players.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

I'm pretty sure if you took a second to not give me a snippy answer and looked at page 1 that was already discussed and the OP had to edit his post to reflect it. I'm not trying to be mean here but this is page 18 of the thread and you're getting mad because I haven't answered your specific point which was already answered on page 1.

And I've been talking about my specific point since like page 10 (introduction of a player-sided debuff to scale damage done and damage received based on a chosen difficulty setting), of which multiple people have just said "no" without giving a concrete answer as to why, including yourself on page 15.

seipher09

I agree. When doing quests I think It is rather silly they talk about a terrible monster that has taken countless lives and murdered an entire army and you look at it hit 1 button and it dies with doing 0 damage.

I really miss the old cadwell silver and gold as it added difficulty improvements. Removing it really hurt the game in my opinion. I think cadwell silver and gold should be an option for every single zone in the game and not just the base game.

Will this separate the player base? Yes but if the players are having fun who cares. For trade and chat and vendors they can add a new small map that's only a large city with everything in it that isn't based on silver or gold and is free to teleport to.Amazon

eKsDee

Again, we don't even need to split the player base, at all.

1. Copypaste Battle Spirit, give it a new name and ID, and change it's application rules so it only applies to players in overland instances when not in a duel
2. Remove everything except the damage received and healing received reductions, add a damage done reduction, and change the adjustments so that damage done and healing received are reduced, while damage received is increased
3. Add a new setting to the character sheet for difficulty, tie the stat adjustments in this new Battle Spirit to the new difficulty setting
4. Add multiple levels of stat adjustments for each difficulty setting, such that the higher the difficulty, the less damage players deal, the less health players heal for, and the more damage players take

Easy 4-step process on how to deal with overland difficulty, in a way that players can change their individual difficulties, without affecting other players, and without introducing more instances. See spoilers below for a rundown on how this compares to just introducing new instances and increasing mob health and damage.

Spoiler

Say a player is fighting a mob. To just throw out some numbers, mob has 20k health, player has 25k health. Player deals 2k DPS to mob, mob deals 500 DPS to player. (Player might have been healing to offset mob's damage, or might have high resists.)

Player kills mob in 10 seconds, while losing only around 5k health over that 10 seconds, or 20% health.

Now say the player enters a vet zone, where mob health and damage is doubled. Mob now has 40k health, and deals 1k damage a second to player. Player still has 25k health, and still deals 2k DPS to mob.

Player kills mob in 20 seconds, player loses 20k health over that 10 seconds, or 80% health. Mob health doubled, so fight duration doubled. Mob damage doubled, which when combined with fight duration, means total received damage quadrupled for the player.

Now say the player goes back to a regular zone, but instead increases his difficulty up to a setting, where his damage done is halved, and damage received is doubled. Mob goes back to 20k health every second, but still deals 1k damage a second to player, as player damage received doubled. Player still has 25k health, but now deals only 1k DPS to mob, as player damage done halved.

Player kills mob in 20 seconds, player loses 20k health over that 10 seconds, or 80% health. Mob health has gone back to normal, but player damage has been halved, which has had the same effect as doubling mob health, meaning fight duration still doubles. Player's damage received has also doubled, which has the effect of the mob damage effectively being doubled, which when combined with the fight duration still doubling, means the total received damage still quadrupled for the player.

One difficulty system changes the mobs, another changes the player, but they both resulted in the same outcome. This works for any percentage increase, provided the player's damage done is the reciprocal of the mob changes (ie `player_change = 1.0 / mob_change`), because math. Player's damage received can stick to the original percentage increase, again because math.

An increase in 50% would be a 1.5x increase, and the reciprocal of that (`1.0 / 1.5`) is 0.6666667, ie 2/3's. So increasing mob health and damage by 50% would have the same effect as reducing the player's damage done by 33.334%, and increasing the player's damage received by 50%.

If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Open your calculator app, and type in `30000 / 2000` (1.5x mob health, divided by regular player DPS), then type in `20000 / (2000 * 0.6666667)` (regular mob health, divided by 2/3's player DPS), and compare. Both should result in ~15, or around 15 seconds.

starkerealm

eKsDee wrote: »

Again, we don't even need to split the player base, at all.

1. Copypaste Battle Spirit, give it a new name and ID, and change it's application rules so it only applies to players in overland instances when not in a duel
2. Remove everything except the damage received and healing received reductions, add a damage done reduction, and change the adjustments so that damage done and healing received are reduced, while damage received is increased
3. Add a new setting to the character sheet for difficulty, tie the stat adjustments in this new Battle Spirit to the new difficulty setting
4. Add multiple levels of stat adjustments for each difficulty setting, such that the higher the difficulty, the less damage players deal, the less health players heal for, and the more damage players take

Easy 4-step process on how to deal with overland difficulty, in a way that players can change their individual difficulties, without affecting other players, and without introducing more instances. See spoilers below for a rundown on how this compares to just introducing new instances and increasing mob health and damage.

Spoiler

Say a player is fighting a mob. To just throw out some numbers, mob has 20k health, player has 25k health. Player deals 2k DPS to mob, mob deals 500 DPS to player. (Player might have been healing to offset mob's damage, or might have high resists.)

Player kills mob in 10 seconds, while losing only around 5k health over that 10 seconds, or 20% health.

Now say the player enters a vet zone, where mob health and damage is doubled. Mob now has 40k health, and deals 1k damage a second to player. Player still has 25k health, and still deals 2k DPS to mob.

Player kills mob in 20 seconds, player loses 20k health over that 10 seconds, or 80% health. Mob health doubled, so fight duration doubled. Mob damage doubled, which when combined with fight duration, means total received damage quadrupled for the player.

Now say the player goes back to a regular zone, but instead increases his difficulty up to a setting, where his damage done is halved, and damage received is doubled. Mob goes back to 20k health every second, but still deals 1k damage a second to player, as player damage received doubled. Player still has 25k health, but now deals only 1k DPS to mob, as player damage done halved.

Player kills mob in 20 seconds, player loses 20k health over that 10 seconds, or 80% health. Mob health has gone back to normal, but player damage has been halved, which has had the same effect as doubling mob health, meaning fight duration still doubles. Player's damage received has also doubled, which has the effect of the mob damage effectively being doubled, which when combined with the fight duration still doubling, means the total received damage still quadrupled for the player.

One difficulty system changes the mobs, another changes the player, but they both resulted in the same outcome. This works for any percentage increase, provided the player's damage done is the reciprocal of the mob changes (ie `player_change = 1.0 / mob_change`), because math. Player's damage received can stick to the original percentage increase, again because math.

An increase in 50% would be a 1.5x increase, and the reciprocal of that (`1.0 / 1.5`) is 0.6666667, ie 2/3's. So increasing mob health and damage by 50% would have the same effect as reducing the player's damage done by 33.334%, and increasing the player's damage received by 50%.

If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Open your calculator app, and type in `30000 / 2000` (1.5x mob health, divided by regular player DPS), then type in `20000 / (2000 * 0.6666667)` (regular mob health, divided by 2/3's player DPS), and compare. Both should result in ~15, or around 15 seconds.

This wouldn't be enough to have the effect you're looking for. It wouldn't make the content more difficult, only more time consuming. Avoiding incoming attacks in overland is already trivial, and the damage they hit for is similarly irrelevant. Simply moving the damage around wouldn't change anything unless you outright broke the content in question by ramping damage received from hitscan attacks into unsurvivable ranges.

This might be effective for players who are unused to vet content, but if you can push north of 30k (and that's low DPS for the vet content players who are asking for this), these tweaks wouldn't matter. You'd still roflstomp everything in your path.

eKsDee

starkerealm wrote: »

show previous quotes

eKsDee wrote: »

Again, we don't even need to split the player base, at all.

1. Copypaste Battle Spirit, give it a new name and ID, and change it's application rules so it only applies to players in overland instances when not in a duel
2. Remove everything except the damage received and healing received reductions, add a damage done reduction, and change the adjustments so that damage done and healing received are reduced, while damage received is increased
3. Add a new setting to the character sheet for difficulty, tie the stat adjustments in this new Battle Spirit to the new difficulty setting
4. Add multiple levels of stat adjustments for each difficulty setting, such that the higher the difficulty, the less damage players deal, the less health players heal for, and the more damage players take

Easy 4-step process on how to deal with overland difficulty, in a way that players can change their individual difficulties, without affecting other players, and without introducing more instances. See spoilers below for a rundown on how this compares to just introducing new instances and increasing mob health and damage.

Spoiler

Say a player is fighting a mob. To just throw out some numbers, mob has 20k health, player has 25k health. Player deals 2k DPS to mob, mob deals 500 DPS to player. (Player might have been healing to offset mob's damage, or might have high resists.)

Player kills mob in 10 seconds, while losing only around 5k health over that 10 seconds, or 20% health.

Now say the player enters a vet zone, where mob health and damage is doubled. Mob now has 40k health, and deals 1k damage a second to player. Player still has 25k health, and still deals 2k DPS to mob.

Player kills mob in 20 seconds, player loses 20k health over that 10 seconds, or 80% health. Mob health doubled, so fight duration doubled. Mob damage doubled, which when combined with fight duration, means total received damage quadrupled for the player.

Now say the player goes back to a regular zone, but instead increases his difficulty up to a setting, where his damage done is halved, and damage received is doubled. Mob goes back to 20k health every second, but still deals 1k damage a second to player, as player damage received doubled. Player still has 25k health, but now deals only 1k DPS to mob, as player damage done halved.

Player kills mob in 20 seconds, player loses 20k health over that 10 seconds, or 80% health. Mob health has gone back to normal, but player damage has been halved, which has had the same effect as doubling mob health, meaning fight duration still doubles. Player's damage received has also doubled, which has the effect of the mob damage effectively being doubled, which when combined with the fight duration still doubling, means the total received damage still quadrupled for the player.

One difficulty system changes the mobs, another changes the player, but they both resulted in the same outcome. This works for any percentage increase, provided the player's damage done is the reciprocal of the mob changes (ie `player_change = 1.0 / mob_change`), because math. Player's damage received can stick to the original percentage increase, again because math.

An increase in 50% would be a 1.5x increase, and the reciprocal of that (`1.0 / 1.5`) is 0.6666667, ie 2/3's. So increasing mob health and damage by 50% would have the same effect as reducing the player's damage done by 33.334%, and increasing the player's damage received by 50%.

If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Open your calculator app, and type in `30000 / 2000` (1.5x mob health, divided by regular player DPS), then type in `20000 / (2000 * 0.6666667)` (regular mob health, divided by 2/3's player DPS), and compare. Both should result in ~15, or around 15 seconds.

This wouldn't be enough to have the effect you're looking for. It wouldn't make the content more difficult, only more time consuming. Avoiding incoming attacks in overland is already trivial, and the damage they hit for is similarly irrelevant. Simply moving the damage around wouldn't change anything unless you outright broke the content in question by ramping damage received from hitscan attacks into unsurvivable ranges.

This might be effective for players who are unused to vet content, but if you can push north of 30k (and that's low DPS for the vet content players who are asking for this), these tweaks wouldn't matter. You'd still roflstomp everything in your path.

The point of these changes would be to raise the damage of incoming attacks by increasing the damage a player receives from attacks, rather than straight increasing the damage of the attack itself for all players. So that solves the "the damage they hit for is similarly irrelevant" part.

As for avoiding attacks being too easy, a system like this could be accompanied with a rebalance of overland (one that I think is sorely needed, even for newer players -- see my reply to Rave the Histborn), that overhauls enemy AI to be more punishing if you fail to react in time.

(Newer players could default to an easier difficulty with such an overland rebalance, such that although the AI is more punishing, the consequences for failing are still fairly forgiving.)

I can already predict the response to such an overland rebalance, though, as I said to Rave, that is a topic for another thread, so for now I'd just settle on being able to control how our characters are scaled, so I don't literally one shot mobs without even trying, while not even receiving a tickle back.

robertthebard

eKsDee wrote: »

Again, we don't even need to split the player base, at all.

1. Copypaste Battle Spirit, give it a new name and ID, and change it's application rules so it only applies to players in overland instances when not in a duel
2. Remove everything except the damage received and healing received reductions, add a damage done reduction, and change the adjustments so that damage done and healing received are reduced, while damage received is increased
3. Add a new setting to the character sheet for difficulty, tie the stat adjustments in this new Battle Spirit to the new difficulty setting
4. Add multiple levels of stat adjustments for each difficulty setting, such that the higher the difficulty, the less damage players deal, the less health players heal for, and the more damage players take

Easy 4-step process on how to deal with overland difficulty, in a way that players can change their individual difficulties, without affecting other players, and without introducing more instances. See spoilers below for a rundown on how this compares to just introducing new instances and increasing mob health and damage.

Spoiler

Say a player is fighting a mob. To just throw out some numbers, mob has 20k health, player has 25k health. Player deals 2k DPS to mob, mob deals 500 DPS to player. (Player might have been healing to offset mob's damage, or might have high resists.)

Player kills mob in 10 seconds, while losing only around 5k health over that 10 seconds, or 20% health.

Now say the player enters a vet zone, where mob health and damage is doubled. Mob now has 40k health, and deals 1k damage a second to player. Player still has 25k health, and still deals 2k DPS to mob.

Player kills mob in 20 seconds, player loses 20k health over that 10 seconds, or 80% health. Mob health doubled, so fight duration doubled. Mob damage doubled, which when combined with fight duration, means total received damage quadrupled for the player.

Now say the player goes back to a regular zone, but instead increases his difficulty up to a setting, where his damage done is halved, and damage received is doubled. Mob goes back to 20k health every second, but still deals 1k damage a second to player, as player damage received doubled. Player still has 25k health, but now deals only 1k DPS to mob, as player damage done halved.

Player kills mob in 20 seconds, player loses 20k health over that 10 seconds, or 80% health. Mob health has gone back to normal, but player damage has been halved, which has had the same effect as doubling mob health, meaning fight duration still doubles. Player's damage received has also doubled, which has the effect of the mob damage effectively being doubled, which when combined with the fight duration still doubling, means the total received damage still quadrupled for the player.

One difficulty system changes the mobs, another changes the player, but they both resulted in the same outcome. This works for any percentage increase, provided the player's damage done is the reciprocal of the mob changes (ie `player_change = 1.0 / mob_change`), because math. Player's damage received can stick to the original percentage increase, again because math.

An increase in 50% would be a 1.5x increase, and the reciprocal of that (`1.0 / 1.5`) is 0.6666667, ie 2/3's. So increasing mob health and damage by 50% would have the same effect as reducing the player's damage done by 33.334%, and increasing the player's damage received by 50%.

If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Open your calculator app, and type in `30000 / 2000` (1.5x mob health, divided by regular player DPS), then type in `20000 / (2000 * 0.6666667)` (regular mob health, divided by 2/3's player DPS), and compare. Both should result in ~15, or around 15 seconds.

The irony here, of course, is that these are things you can already do on your own, w/out having to have developers divert resources to a complete rework of a mechanic. "But it doesn't affect anyone" falls flat. It affects anyone that's waiting for new content, or that has been waiting for bug fixes. A part of QA will have to be diverted to test these changes to make sure they're as smooth as possible, and then, of course, there's the aftermath.

They introduce the system as laid out, and then players attempting to use it come here and complain that it's "stupid hard", by doing all the things you list need to be done. I've seen it happen. Some will love it, some will rage because it didn't go far enough, and some will rage that it went too far. The deeper irony is that some of the people here, in this very thread, or one of the dizzying array of identical threads, will be in that last list, and if you tell them to play a lower difficulty if they can't handle it, they're going to hitting that report post button so fast, it'll make your head swim, and I've seen that happen too. It happened to me, and resulted in a permanent ban from the DDO forums.

eKsDee

robertthebard wrote: »

The irony here, of course, is that these are things you can already do on your own, w/out having to have developers divert resources to a complete rework of a mechanic.

1. No where near to the extent needed. You can quite literally run in all white gear, with no CP and only a single skill on bar, and still faceroll content.

2. I shouldn't have to go out of my to undo all of my progression, some of which requires paying a gold fee to undo, just to be able to enjoy overland. That's what a system built into the game is meant to address.

robertthebard wrote: »

"But it doesn't affect anyone" falls flat. It affects anyone that's waiting for new content, or that has been waiting for bug fixes. A part of QA will have to be diverted to test these changes to make sure they're as smooth as possible, and then, of course, there's the aftermath.

You do realise that there are multiple teams working on various parts of the game simultaneously, right? And you do realise that each of these teams likely has multiple staff, who have each got their own tasks delegated to them, right?

This literally only stresses one of the gameplay teams, and likely only one or two people in that team, who can, as I mentioned, reference Battle Spirit, where half of their job is done for them.

There are far more impactful QoL changes rolled out in the same patches as entire new zones, filled with quests, several delves, maybe a public dungeon or two, possibly a new trial or arena, that releases alongside other major gameplay changes that impact many aspects of gameplay, such as general gameplay, combat, itemisation, class and skill balance, etc.

No reason why one more QoL change, of which is already half implemented in the form of Battle Spirit, couldn't be added to the list of an upcoming patch.

robertthebard wrote: »

They introduce the system as laid out, and then players attempting to use it come here and complain that it's "stupid hard", by doing all the things you list need to be done. I've seen it happen. Some will love it, some will rage because it didn't go far enough, and some will rage that it went too far.

Again, this is why multiple difficulty settings are a thing. Add many difficulty settings, ranging from "absolute beginner who's repeatedly dying to an early quest boss", to "diehard veteran who wants to the equivalent of soloing a vet HM dungeon in overland", with many steps in between.

The great thing is, this really is not that hard to do, with a system like I've described. It's just different sets of multipliers within a table, that can be tweaked, added or removed at will, based on player feedback. When the difficulty system is first introduced, Zenimax can only implement a few difficulties, that have been tweaked based on player feedback on the PTS, and later patches may introduce more difficulties, with their own tweaks on their own PTS periods.

robertthebard wrote: »

The deeper irony is that some of the people here, in this very thread, or one of the dizzying array of identical threads, will be in that last list, and if you tell them to play a lower difficulty if they can't handle it, they're going to hitting that report post button so fast, it'll make your head swim, and I've seen that happen too. It happened to me, and resulted in a permanent ban from the DDO forums.

And those people shouldn't be listened to, because the various difficulties are there exactly for that reason. So, I say, who cares? Let them complain, and keep responding with "turn the difficulty down/up".

Galwylin

Its it all but proven that companies that provide players rewards the fastest earn more money than challenge? I only ask this because its not rocket science that if you cast a wide net where you don't throw out any potentially bad player you will ensure that player doesn't look for a more "rewarding" game. This game is easy and thus popular. It doesn't take much to find the gravestones of all the games that wanted to provide more challenge to players. People, by and large, do not appreciate hard work in games.

I'm not pointing fingers here. I'd much rather have a easier ride to whatever shiney I'm after than difficult if the reward is the same regardless. Its a problem WoW has faced when you have rewards just as good as raiding provides suddenly you lose tons of raiding guilds. And until recent years all they did was increase in profit. They may still be profitable but are receiving a lot more criticism. As should be pointed out they also made raiding the only way to obtain the best gear so maybe that has something to do with it.

I'm not saying you shouldn't present challenge but I'm not sure anyone would appreciate a green non-set piece of gear regardless what you did to get it. If you make facing the challenge worthwhile chances are you'll have people appreciate it if they can showoff what they did just by looking at their character. What ZOS has done is offered up skins you cover up with gear because gear is the most apparent method of showing accomplishment. But gear is in such a bad state of late I'm not sure anyone would be impressed at seeing some of the stuff they bring out lately. So titles? Do we even see those? Mounts? Like better than crates? Oh that's going to be an issue. For better of worse, ZOS seems to just say hey everyone, whether you know how to play this game or not you will be able to stand next to any top raider and no one will be able to tell the difference between you. There's simply not much these type of games can do when their whole financial structure depends on you buying, not earning, the best rewards in the game. Same issue GW2 has. Best looks are in the cash shops not the dungeons.

I've long accepted this idea. I thought when Morrowind offered costumes and personalities through gameplay this game might turn around and start rewarding playing over paying. But those hopes are long dashed. I just accept it and thus have my desire to play challenging content lesser day after day. I basically play once or twice a month at this rate and my character never needs to improve beyond what I knew way back when even after balance patch after balance patch. My gear is so old that really the only reason I see of ever changing it (since I don't do group content beyond a one time run through normal for the quest) unless they completely nerf it to garbage. And even then I'm not sure I would bother.

What's the point if there's not a total redesign of how they deliver content and rewards. They basically are getting me to pay for ESO+ (I dunno why either) and whatever new chapter they bring out with playing the exact same thing I've been playing since I began. I'm sure there are lots like me that mindlessly pay for this game even though its not really giving me anything new. Playing with Crown Crates sometimes is the most interesting thing being offered as it feeds my gambling itch Well, I guess its pretty.

robertthebard

eKsDee wrote: »

show previous quotes

robertthebard wrote: »

The irony here, of course, is that these are things you can already do on your own, w/out having to have developers divert resources to a complete rework of a mechanic.

1. No where near to the extent needed. You can quite literally run in all white gear, with no CP and only a single skill on bar, and still faceroll content.

2. I shouldn't have to go out of my to undo all of my progression, some of which requires paying a gold fee to undo, just to be able to enjoy overland. That's what a system built into the game is meant to address.

show previous quotes

robertthebard wrote: »

"But it doesn't affect anyone" falls flat. It affects anyone that's waiting for new content, or that has been waiting for bug fixes. A part of QA will have to be diverted to test these changes to make sure they're as smooth as possible, and then, of course, there's the aftermath.

You do realise that there are multiple teams working on various parts of the game simultaneously, right? And you do realise that each of these teams likely has multiple staff, who have each got their own tasks delegated to them, right?

This literally only stresses one of the gameplay teams, and likely only one or two people in that team, who can, as I mentioned, reference Battle Spirit, where half of their job is done for them.

There are far more impactful QoL changes rolled out in the same patches as entire new zones, filled with quests, several delves, maybe a public dungeon or two, possibly a new trial or arena, that releases alongside other major gameplay changes that impact many aspects of gameplay, such as general gameplay, combat, itemisation, class and skill balance, etc.

No reason why one more QoL change, of which is already half implemented in the form of Battle Spirit, couldn't be added to the list of an upcoming patch.

show previous quotes

robertthebard wrote: »

They introduce the system as laid out, and then players attempting to use it come here and complain that it's "stupid hard", by doing all the things you list need to be done. I've seen it happen. Some will love it, some will rage because it didn't go far enough, and some will rage that it went too far.

Again, this is why multiple difficulty settings are a thing. Add many difficulty settings, ranging from "absolute beginner who's repeatedly dying to an early quest boss", to "diehard veteran who wants to the equivalent of soloing a vet HM dungeon in overland", with many steps in between.

The great thing is, this really is not that hard to do, with a system like I've described. It's just different sets of multipliers within a table, that can be tweaked, added or removed at will, based on player feedback. When the difficulty system is first introduced, Zenimax can only implement a few difficulties, that have been tweaked based on player feedback on the PTS, and later patches may introduce more difficulties, with their own tweaks on their own PTS periods.

show previous quotes

robertthebard wrote: »

The deeper irony is that some of the people here, in this very thread, or one of the dizzying array of identical threads, will be in that last list, and if you tell them to play a lower difficulty if they can't handle it, they're going to hitting that report post button so fast, it'll make your head swim, and I've seen that happen too. It happened to me, and resulted in a permanent ban from the DDO forums.

And those people shouldn't be listened to, because the various difficulties are there exactly for that reason. So, I say, who cares? Let them complain, and keep responding with "turn the difficulty down/up".

...and yet, that's exactly what you're asking the devs to do, undo all your progression to make the game more challenging. I can already see where this is going to go, and it's all plainly presented in the post you quoted here. Then you want to complicate it even further with multiple settings? I guess you believe that there's just some button the devs need to press to give you what you are asking for? There's not. This is something that could literally take a year, or more, to implement, and heavens forbid something in it bugs out, right?

This code would have to be run on every mob, in every zone of the game. It would have to be tuned multiple times to get these multiple difficulties, and it would have to be tested for every one of them, in every zone. There is a heavy cost in both developer time, which is finite, after all, and money spent, because those developers have to be paid, for something that they couldn't possibly monetize to try to recoup some of the expenditures, so it's just money out the window.

Everest_Lionheart

Last night I decided to start my second character. My new magplar and went straight into Northern Elsweyr and he is pretty much owning the content despite his newbie status. Now that can be attributed to a couple of things. The main being that I am familiar with the game and it’s mechanics. The second being that I know which skills to get first and have already morphed 3 of them by the time I hit level 8 plus picked up half a dozen sky shards.

Now being low level and even though I have a larger health pool on my magplar versus my main stamwarden I noticed I am quite squishy in my white equipment and I have to manage my rss when firing off skills. It’s an adjustment in play style to be sure plus setting up skills that make sense on my controller took more time than anything because I want the skill sets to make sense with the way I already know how to press buttons.

So I ran around in search of some harder encounters in the early Elsweyr content. There was some challenge even with the current skill level I was bringing to the game and I had an instance where clearing out the camps of skeletons on one of the early quests where I accidentally pulled one mob into 2 others that respawned on top of me. I was able to pull enemies and get them stuck in my dots to wear them down enough to die. New players won’t have any concept of this.

Later while heading to another mission I saw another newish player struggling with 3 Euraxian guards. I showed them how to kite the enemies and use HA/skill to manage rss better and explained The importantance if dots and aoe to them. I think I was level 5 at the time and she was level 12. We went through the rest of that camp and I went on my way.

Near the first real dragon encounter at the Senche mines I tried to do something a little more advanced and ended up dying. Along the way I encountered a solo gryphon which I was able to handle with all of the techniques I currently know. But closer to the mine there is a gryphon and a Haj-mota facing off in a pool just below the entrance. I tried to take both at once but my player was no match for that yet at lv5. I fought valiantly but with my noobie gear and lack of rss I was doomed from the start. The pool isn’t there to fight these fights or sustain them. A good lesson on just how I have to rethink the strategy on this new character.

I even managed to join a help kill a couple dragons with my 1.1k DPS! The goal was more not dying but you get the idea. Again I know mechanics well enough to avoid the real danger though I got caught a few times with my pants down and died 1 time on each of the 3 encounters. To be fair they were all storm dragons and I screw up with those mechanics even on my main.

So that gets me to thinking about the overall difficulty here. When I rolled my first toon through these same situations I was working a lot harder because I had zero understanding on mechanics and even less understanding about builds. It was challenging and I died several times but by level 25 or so I had the basics down and only got into trouble when I wandered into a dungeon.

Now for sure I’ve basically rolled an EZ mode character this time with magplar so I expect to be OP quickly especially given what I know about the game already. And therein lies the problem. The game is easy once you understand it and does not get any more difficult unless you seek out new challenges.

So how do you change that in a way that is fair to both the new players and veteran players? That’s where we have the rub, people seem to want harder content but without and actual nerfing of their current power. No matter how much power of HP you give an enemy you are going to be significantly stronger than they are outside of bosses which can be DPSed into oblivion with a well timed heal over time unless they have 1 shot mechanics. Outside of this kinds of mechanics it’s hard to die in the game unless you do fall asleep at the wheel and a high enough CP can fall asleep and still LA their way to victory.

Will a difficulty slider actually add anything to the game? It’s not The HP and DMG that need adjustment so much as the battle mechanics. I mean globally every Overworld enemy should probably get a few more HP anyway but they have mechanics that are laughable with their long windups for heavy attacks and their retreating for ranged attacks where they are dead by the time they turn around and begin channeling an ability. It’s kind of sad actually how bad the enemies are. Oh look another assassin jumped over me while already under the influence of a DOT and died upon landing. That wasted two seconds could be dealing damage to me. The wasted retreat could have hit me 2x. The game had the change to hit me but it chose some horrible tactics.

Also most enemies are just smart enough to chase you half way across Tamriel only to retreat once you engage. I can pull 20 enemies together for a challenge only watch 10 of them retreat once I lay down my AOE. What happened to strength in numbers? Sorry guys not my jurisdiction you’ll have to kill this guy on your own!

That’s the real issue here. The AI is lacking the intelligence part!

Linaleah

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

That’s the real issue here. The AI is lacking the intelligence part!

this right here is the core of the problem for sure. that's why all these suggestions about individual player toggle - are NOT going to work. if you only change the health and damage (both taken and given) of a player and keep everything else the same? the game is NOT going to get harder, things will just take a little longer to die.

couple of times, people brought up games with difficulty sliders, world tiers, you name it.

now, I cannot speak for every single game, but since I probably spend more time in Division 2 than ESO at the moment - i can speak for that. AI changes on higher difficulties. mobs become more aggressive, they notice you faster, they flank you better, their aim is stronger, they get special ammo that can stun you or stick you in place etc etc. you just get more mobs spawning sometimes which ALSO changes tactics. MECHANICS change. its not just mobs turning into bullet sponges. not unlike normal vs vet vs vet HM mechanics in ESO.

this is why people here can bring up how easy it was for them to defeat some more beefed up mob in ESO, while posting 12 minute videos of them meleeing a troll or something. scaling down a player while keeping a world the same - is just going to turn most mobs into these trolls. changing mechanics in the world may make it too difficult for new players to figure out the game before getting discouraged and moving on to something they enjoy more.

this is why I personaly will continue supporting separate instances with higher difficulties while fighting adjustments to existing overworld. because its the ONLY way to keep it fair for new players, while also giving veteran players interested in challenge - actual challenge

starkerealm

eKsDee wrote: »

show previous quotes

starkerealm wrote: »

eKsDee wrote: »

Again, we don't even need to split the player base, at all.

1. Copypaste Battle Spirit, give it a new name and ID, and change it's application rules so it only applies to players in overland instances when not in a duel
2. Remove everything except the damage received and healing received reductions, add a damage done reduction, and change the adjustments so that damage done and healing received are reduced, while damage received is increased
3. Add a new setting to the character sheet for difficulty, tie the stat adjustments in this new Battle Spirit to the new difficulty setting
4. Add multiple levels of stat adjustments for each difficulty setting, such that the higher the difficulty, the less damage players deal, the less health players heal for, and the more damage players take

Easy 4-step process on how to deal with overland difficulty, in a way that players can change their individual difficulties, without affecting other players, and without introducing more instances. See spoilers below for a rundown on how this compares to just introducing new instances and increasing mob health and damage.

Spoiler

Say a player is fighting a mob. To just throw out some numbers, mob has 20k health, player has 25k health. Player deals 2k DPS to mob, mob deals 500 DPS to player. (Player might have been healing to offset mob's damage, or might have high resists.)

Player kills mob in 10 seconds, while losing only around 5k health over that 10 seconds, or 20% health.

Now say the player enters a vet zone, where mob health and damage is doubled. Mob now has 40k health, and deals 1k damage a second to player. Player still has 25k health, and still deals 2k DPS to mob.

Player kills mob in 20 seconds, player loses 20k health over that 10 seconds, or 80% health. Mob health doubled, so fight duration doubled. Mob damage doubled, which when combined with fight duration, means total received damage quadrupled for the player.

Now say the player goes back to a regular zone, but instead increases his difficulty up to a setting, where his damage done is halved, and damage received is doubled. Mob goes back to 20k health every second, but still deals 1k damage a second to player, as player damage received doubled. Player still has 25k health, but now deals only 1k DPS to mob, as player damage done halved.

Player kills mob in 20 seconds, player loses 20k health over that 10 seconds, or 80% health. Mob health has gone back to normal, but player damage has been halved, which has had the same effect as doubling mob health, meaning fight duration still doubles. Player's damage received has also doubled, which has the effect of the mob damage effectively being doubled, which when combined with the fight duration still doubling, means the total received damage still quadrupled for the player.

One difficulty system changes the mobs, another changes the player, but they both resulted in the same outcome. This works for any percentage increase, provided the player's damage done is the reciprocal of the mob changes (ie `player_change = 1.0 / mob_change`), because math. Player's damage received can stick to the original percentage increase, again because math.

An increase in 50% would be a 1.5x increase, and the reciprocal of that (`1.0 / 1.5`) is 0.6666667, ie 2/3's. So increasing mob health and damage by 50% would have the same effect as reducing the player's damage done by 33.334%, and increasing the player's damage received by 50%.

If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Open your calculator app, and type in `30000 / 2000` (1.5x mob health, divided by regular player DPS), then type in `20000 / (2000 * 0.6666667)` (regular mob health, divided by 2/3's player DPS), and compare. Both should result in ~15, or around 15 seconds.

This wouldn't be enough to have the effect you're looking for. It wouldn't make the content more difficult, only more time consuming. Avoiding incoming attacks in overland is already trivial, and the damage they hit for is similarly irrelevant. Simply moving the damage around wouldn't change anything unless you outright broke the content in question by ramping damage received from hitscan attacks into unsurvivable ranges.

This might be effective for players who are unused to vet content, but if you can push north of 30k (and that's low DPS for the vet content players who are asking for this), these tweaks wouldn't matter. You'd still roflstomp everything in your path.

The point of these changes would be to raise the damage of incoming attacks by increasing the damage a player receives from attacks, rather than straight increasing the damage of the attack itself for all players. So that solves the "the damage they hit for is similarly irrelevant" part.

As for avoiding attacks being too easy, a system like this could be accompanied with a rebalance of overland (one that I think is sorely needed, even for newer players -- see my reply to Rave the Histborn), that overhauls enemy AI to be more punishing if you fail to react in time.

(Newer players could default to an easier difficulty with such an overland rebalance, such that although the AI is more punishing, the consequences for failing are still fairly forgiving.)

I can already predict the response to such an overland rebalance, though, as I said to Rave, that is a topic for another thread, so for now I'd just settle on being able to control how our characters are scaled, so I don't literally one shot mobs without even trying, while not even receiving a tickle back.

Again, ramping damage dealt and damage received would have a negligible on experienced players. If you're used to running vet content where a single heavy attack or ability hit will kill you, and the time between call out and attack is much shorter. Simply doubling the damage enemies do in overland doesn't matter. Quadrupling wouldn't matter.

You'd need to completely rework the movesets for all overland enemies, and that's a lot more work than just slapping a battle spirit debuff on players who ask for it.

Isarii

starkerealm wrote: »

show previous quotes

eKsDee wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

eKsDee wrote: »

Again, we don't even need to split the player base, at all.

1. Copypaste Battle Spirit, give it a new name and ID, and change it's application rules so it only applies to players in overland instances when not in a duel
2. Remove everything except the damage received and healing received reductions, add a damage done reduction, and change the adjustments so that damage done and healing received are reduced, while damage received is increased
3. Add a new setting to the character sheet for difficulty, tie the stat adjustments in this new Battle Spirit to the new difficulty setting
4. Add multiple levels of stat adjustments for each difficulty setting, such that the higher the difficulty, the less damage players deal, the less health players heal for, and the more damage players take

Easy 4-step process on how to deal with overland difficulty, in a way that players can change their individual difficulties, without affecting other players, and without introducing more instances. See spoilers below for a rundown on how this compares to just introducing new instances and increasing mob health and damage.

Spoiler

Say a player is fighting a mob. To just throw out some numbers, mob has 20k health, player has 25k health. Player deals 2k DPS to mob, mob deals 500 DPS to player. (Player might have been healing to offset mob's damage, or might have high resists.)

Player kills mob in 10 seconds, while losing only around 5k health over that 10 seconds, or 20% health.

Now say the player enters a vet zone, where mob health and damage is doubled. Mob now has 40k health, and deals 1k damage a second to player. Player still has 25k health, and still deals 2k DPS to mob.

Player kills mob in 20 seconds, player loses 20k health over that 10 seconds, or 80% health. Mob health doubled, so fight duration doubled. Mob damage doubled, which when combined with fight duration, means total received damage quadrupled for the player.

Now say the player goes back to a regular zone, but instead increases his difficulty up to a setting, where his damage done is halved, and damage received is doubled. Mob goes back to 20k health every second, but still deals 1k damage a second to player, as player damage received doubled. Player still has 25k health, but now deals only 1k DPS to mob, as player damage done halved.

Player kills mob in 20 seconds, player loses 20k health over that 10 seconds, or 80% health. Mob health has gone back to normal, but player damage has been halved, which has had the same effect as doubling mob health, meaning fight duration still doubles. Player's damage received has also doubled, which has the effect of the mob damage effectively being doubled, which when combined with the fight duration still doubling, means the total received damage still quadrupled for the player.

One difficulty system changes the mobs, another changes the player, but they both resulted in the same outcome. This works for any percentage increase, provided the player's damage done is the reciprocal of the mob changes (ie `player_change = 1.0 / mob_change`), because math. Player's damage received can stick to the original percentage increase, again because math.

An increase in 50% would be a 1.5x increase, and the reciprocal of that (`1.0 / 1.5`) is 0.6666667, ie 2/3's. So increasing mob health and damage by 50% would have the same effect as reducing the player's damage done by 33.334%, and increasing the player's damage received by 50%.

If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Open your calculator app, and type in `30000 / 2000` (1.5x mob health, divided by regular player DPS), then type in `20000 / (2000 * 0.6666667)` (regular mob health, divided by 2/3's player DPS), and compare. Both should result in ~15, or around 15 seconds.

This wouldn't be enough to have the effect you're looking for. It wouldn't make the content more difficult, only more time consuming. Avoiding incoming attacks in overland is already trivial, and the damage they hit for is similarly irrelevant. Simply moving the damage around wouldn't change anything unless you outright broke the content in question by ramping damage received from hitscan attacks into unsurvivable ranges.

This might be effective for players who are unused to vet content, but if you can push north of 30k (and that's low DPS for the vet content players who are asking for this), these tweaks wouldn't matter. You'd still roflstomp everything in your path.

The point of these changes would be to raise the damage of incoming attacks by increasing the damage a player receives from attacks, rather than straight increasing the damage of the attack itself for all players. So that solves the "the damage they hit for is similarly irrelevant" part.

As for avoiding attacks being too easy, a system like this could be accompanied with a rebalance of overland (one that I think is sorely needed, even for newer players -- see my reply to Rave the Histborn), that overhauls enemy AI to be more punishing if you fail to react in time.

(Newer players could default to an easier difficulty with such an overland rebalance, such that although the AI is more punishing, the consequences for failing are still fairly forgiving.)

I can already predict the response to such an overland rebalance, though, as I said to Rave, that is a topic for another thread, so for now I'd just settle on being able to control how our characters are scaled, so I don't literally one shot mobs without even trying, while not even receiving a tickle back.

Again, ramping damage dealt and damage received would have a negligible on experienced players. If you're used to running vet content where a single heavy attack or ability hit will kill you, and the time between call out and attack is much shorter. Simply doubling the damage enemies do in overland doesn't matter. Quadrupling wouldn't matter.

You'd need to completely rework the movesets for all overland enemies, and that's a lot more work than just slapping a battle spirit debuff on players who ask for it.

No one is asking for the overworld content to be challenging compared to veteran group content. The constant straw manning in this thread is getting absurd.

The request is that there be an available form of the overland content that is challenging enough so that you have to actually engage with some mechanics, versus the current iteration where the primary risk is that you fall asleep of boredom.

I don't really even want to be seriously challenged while I'm just questing (maybe by boss encounters, but that's about it). I just want to have to actually block attacks and dodge abilities that overland mobs don't currently live long enough to even use.

starkerealm

Isarii wrote: »

No one is asking for the overworld content to be challenging compared to veteran group content. The constant straw manning in this thread is getting absurd.

Just because you are not, does not mean that no one is. You do not speak for everyone, and judging by the history of this forum, a number of players do want vet difficulty for overland.

Hell, I'm receptive to the idea.

However, simply ramping damage done/damage received is one of the laziest ways to adjust difficulty, and would not be a satisfying resolution to this goal.

Isarii wrote: »

The request is that there be an available form of the overland content that is challenging enough so that you have to actually engage with some mechanics, versus the current iteration where the primary risk is that you fall asleep of boredom.

Which is fine, except the methods proposed in this thread wouldn't achieve that.

Isarii wrote: »

I don't really even want to be seriously challenged while I'm just questing (maybe by boss encounters, but that's about it). I just want to have to actually block attacks and dodge abilities that overland mobs don't currently live long enough to even use.

Again, simply put, ramping damage wouldn't achieve this.

Halving player damage would extend the time to kill, but we're still functionally talking about one shotting enemies. Doubling enemy damage dealt wouldn't have an effect, because the they wouldn't get a shot off anyway.

Ramping it further than that could quickly create a situation where you'd get one tapped by a standard "light attack" from the enemy.

I've seen what this game was like at extreme level differences. What you're asking for wouldn't give you the experience you want. Working to get that experience would require far more work than it initially appears.

Everest_Lionheart

Linaleah wrote: »

show previous quotes

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

That’s the real issue here. The AI is lacking the intelligence part!

this right here is the core of the problem for sure. that's why all these suggestions about individual player toggle - are NOT going to work. if you only change the health and damage (both taken and given) of a player and keep everything else the same? the game is NOT going to get harder, things will just take a little longer to die.

couple of times, people brought up games with difficulty sliders, world tiers, you name it.

now, I cannot speak for every single game, but since I probably spend more time in Division 2 than ESO at the moment - i can speak for that. AI changes on higher difficulties. mobs become more aggressive, they notice you faster, they flank you better, their aim is stronger, they get special ammo that can stun you or stick you in place etc etc. you just get more mobs spawning sometimes which ALSO changes tactics. MECHANICS change. its not just mobs turning into bullet sponges. not unlike normal vs vet vs vet HM mechanics in ESO.

this is why people here can bring up how easy it was for them to defeat some more beefed up mob in ESO, while posting 12 minute videos of them meleeing a troll or something. scaling down a player while keeping a world the same - is just going to turn most mobs into these trolls. changing mechanics in the world may make it too difficult for new players to figure out the game before getting discouraged and moving on to something they enjoy more.

this is why I personaly will continue supporting separate instances with higher difficulties while fighting adjustments to existing overworld. because its the ONLY way to keep it fair for new players, while also giving veteran players interested in challenge - actual challenge

I would say make the starter islands super basic like the game is now and ramp up the difficulty (mechanics) through each zone. By the second to last zone difficulty is at its max level. So zones are gated a bit but when you’ve hit Alik’r, Eastmarch or Malab Tor the game is as hard as it gets. And have all DLC start at the hardest level. This is kind of how it is already though except the only true watered down zones are the first island in AD and the first 2 zones of DC and EP. DLC zones are already harder introducing more robust enemies early and more often.

So to implement a full overhaul of game mechanics I would leave the starter zones as is. Have the second zones introduce More mobs. 3rd zone buff HP and atk of the enemies slightly. 4th zone speed up mechanics with shorter channel and wind up times for enemies. And finally 5th zone AI that learns how to block, interrupt and exploit players that make mistakes.

Now when I say buff I don’t mean anything huge, just enough so that they can’t be out DPSed. Maybe a DPS cap is in order as well per zone. They cap penetration, speed and other stats why not cap DPS as well. Again zone specific with no caps for group content or maelstrom arena.

Again it’s something I would implement across the board globally. No opt in, no toggle just a buff to overall mechanics. Maybe the game can’t handle this kind of change, but I would love to see people freak out the minute their DPS gets capped! Nobody needs to do 90K in overland anyway. Hell you don’t even need 10K to roll through overland without impunity as it is now.

And if it turns out to be too hard for new players still just give them a bigger assist than what is currently in place now.

starkerealm

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

I would say make the starter islands super basic like the game is now and ramp up the difficulty (mechanics) through each zone. By the second to last zone difficulty is at its max level. So zones are gated a bit but when you’ve hit Alik’r, Eastmarch or Malab Tor the game is as hard as it gets. And have all DLC start at the hardest level. This is kind of how it is already though except the only true watered down zones are the first island in AD and the first 2 zones of DC and EP. DLC zones are already harder introducing more robust enemies early and more often.

This is how it already works, except that The Rift, Bangkorai, and Reaper's March are noticeably more difficult than Alik'r, Eastmarch and Malabal Tor.

Also, DLC and chapters, (with a few exceptions), are significantly more difficult than the base game zones.

It all tends to look like it's flattened out once you've advanced beyond that content, but it does get progressively more complicated as you go.

max_only

Yeah so I’ve been playing classic wow and it’s very easy. The one time I died was from an elite bat in the forest respawning on top of me while resting.
The time in between fights is so long.

I see videos of kiting, strafing, keeping out of range, etc. That is absolutely not what a noob will do. A noob will stand still. You may not be using spells but you are using player experience.
I haven’t been convinced. A difference in combat philosophy is the biggest factor to what an individual finds “easy”. There are people, real people, who do not find ESO easy. I meet them, I’m in guilds with them, I do events with them, I see them struggling everywhere I go.

Having played wow classic, wow live, and eso this week I’m still firmly in the belief that wow is the easier game.

Linaleah

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

show previous quotes

Linaleah wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

That’s the real issue here. The AI is lacking the intelligence part!

this right here is the core of the problem for sure. that's why all these suggestions about individual player toggle - are NOT going to work. if you only change the health and damage (both taken and given) of a player and keep everything else the same? the game is NOT going to get harder, things will just take a little longer to die.

couple of times, people brought up games with difficulty sliders, world tiers, you name it.

now, I cannot speak for every single game, but since I probably spend more time in Division 2 than ESO at the moment - i can speak for that. AI changes on higher difficulties. mobs become more aggressive, they notice you faster, they flank you better, their aim is stronger, they get special ammo that can stun you or stick you in place etc etc. you just get more mobs spawning sometimes which ALSO changes tactics. MECHANICS change. its not just mobs turning into bullet sponges. not unlike normal vs vet vs vet HM mechanics in ESO.

this is why people here can bring up how easy it was for them to defeat some more beefed up mob in ESO, while posting 12 minute videos of them meleeing a troll or something. scaling down a player while keeping a world the same - is just going to turn most mobs into these trolls. changing mechanics in the world may make it too difficult for new players to figure out the game before getting discouraged and moving on to something they enjoy more.

this is why I personaly will continue supporting separate instances with higher difficulties while fighting adjustments to existing overworld. because its the ONLY way to keep it fair for new players, while also giving veteran players interested in challenge - actual challenge

I would say make the starter islands super basic like the game is now and ramp up the difficulty (mechanics) through each zone. By the second to last zone difficulty is at its max level. So zones are gated a bit but when you’ve hit Alik’r, Eastmarch or Malab Tor the game is as hard as it gets. And have all DLC start at the hardest level. This is kind of how it is already though except the only true watered down zones are the first island in AD and the first 2 zones of DC and EP. DLC zones are already harder introducing more robust enemies early and more often.

So to implement a full overhaul of game mechanics I would leave the starter zones as is. Have the second zones introduce More mobs. 3rd zone buff HP and atk of the enemies slightly. 4th zone speed up mechanics with shorter channel and wind up times for enemies. And finally 5th zone AI that learns how to block, interrupt and exploit players that make mistakes.

Now when I say buff I don’t mean anything huge, just enough so that they can’t be out DPSed. Maybe a DPS cap is in order as well per zone. They cap penetration, speed and other stats why not cap DPS as well. Again zone specific with no caps for group content or maelstrom arena.

Again it’s something I would implement across the board globally. No opt in, no toggle just a buff to overall mechanics. Maybe the game can’t handle this kind of change, but I would love to see people freak out the minute their DPS gets capped! Nobody needs to do 90K in overland anyway. Hell you don’t even need 10K to roll through overland without impunity as it is now.

And if it turns out to be too hard for new players still just give them a bigger assist than what is currently in place now.

1. DLC's nowadays, especially bigger "expansion" ones are sold as starting areas. they can already be rougher then original starting areas on new players..
2. as pointed out above - zones being slightly more difficult in story progression order - is already a thing.
3. most people will scream bloody murder if you cap their dps in any way. just look at pts forums with spillover to general, whenever any sort of nerf is proposed.
4. unless I am misunderstanding - you are proposing to change the base game, rather then add separate veteran instances. NO. absolutely NO. the skill gap is so wide that in order to make this challenging for experienced players, they would have to making unplayable for the newbies. even if people somehow agree having their dps to be capped.

Dahveed

max_only wrote: »

Yeah so I’ve been playing classic wow and it’s very easy. The one time I died was from an elite bat in the forest respawning on top of me while resting.
The time in between fights is so long.

I see videos of kiting, strafing, keeping out of range, etc. That is absolutely not what a noob will do. A noob will stand still. You may not be using spells but you are using player experience.
I haven’t been convinced. A difference in combat philosophy is the biggest factor to what an individual finds “easy”. There are people, real people, who do not find ESO easy. I meet them, I’m in guilds with them, I do events with them, I see them struggling everywhere I go.

Having played wow classic, wow live, and eso this week I’m still firmly in the belief that wow is the easier game.

[snip]

WoW classic is easier than ESO? Okay, show me a video of your solo, non-twinked level 14 character easily soloing four level 14 murlocs with ease. I want to see that. Maybe you're just way better than me, but I already showed you guys video footage of my geared paladin (who has lay on hands, two bubbles and self heals) getting repeatedly destroyed if more than a couple murlocs attack me at once. I mean I suppose if I played one of the noob pet classes (i.e. hunter) I could kite and let my pet tank etc, and things would be easier. But that is because you made a decision at character creation.

So go ahead mate, roll an arms warrior and give me some raw footage of your level 10 non-twink warrior melting down with ease 3 other level 10 murlocs like we can melt down 3 same-level npcs in ESO. I truly want to see that. I'd be impressed, and honestly I'd be in awe... because that is something that is clearly beyond my skill. My paladin tries this regularly because I enjoy a challenge, and I get destroyed all the time.

I've also showed video of my completely naked ESO character literally standing there doing nothing, taking no damage at all. This is not possible in classic WoW. In classic WoW you take damage from EVERYTHING. Hell while I was farming ore I even got cocky while I was level 14 or something and tried farming ore in a cave with level 6 kobolds. I wasn't paying attention and my hp dropped down to like 30% while there were 5 of them on me.

In ESO this just doesn't happen.


So, just to be clear, so that there is no confusion:

In Elder Scrolls Online, I am able to go AFK while my naked level 3 character stands there and takes (literally) infinite damage against an enemy.

In classic WoW, my fully geared, fully buffed, heavy armor-wearing paladin can barely hold his own against 2 npcs at the same time.



Ugh, I keep trying to leave this thread, but just like the Godfather said... "Every time I get out..."

[Minor Edit for Baiting]

Dahveed

max_only wrote: »

Yeah so I’ve been playing classic wow and it’s very easy. The one time I died was from an elite bat in the forest respawning on top of me while resting.
The time in between fights is so long.

I see videos of kiting, strafing, keeping out of range, etc. That is absolutely not what a noob will do. A noob will stand still. You may not be using spells but you are using player experience.
I haven’t been convinced. A difference in combat philosophy is the biggest factor to what an individual finds “easy”. There are people, real people, who do not find ESO easy. I meet them, I’m in guilds with them, I do events with them, I see them struggling everywhere I go.

Having played wow classic, wow live, and eso this week I’m still firmly in the belief that wow is the easier game.

By the way, this is a video of PROFESSIONAL WoW players getting their butts kicked in classic.

Enjoy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8unROhEnwY