Why is this game so easy?
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Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
Not even close. I'm going from memory, but if top DPS back then was over 5k, I'd be seriously shocked.
Those videos both predate the stat changes from 1.6, and the introduction of the champion point system, so first shave a zero off. At that point, 3k isn't a bad guess, but I think it might be a bit generous. 2k or 2.5k sounds a little closer, but I was never pushing the envelope back then.
True, I could be thinking of a little later on. It's hard to remember exact numbers from six years ago, but I think you're a little low there. Either way though, it was much, much lower than it is today and not because people just got better at rotations."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
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True, I could be thinking of a little later on. It's hard to remember exact numbers from six years ago, but I think you're a little low there. Either way though, it was much, much lower than it is today and not because people just got better at rotations.
Yeah, 30k is Dark Brotherhood or Morrowind. It's somewhere in there. Maybe Thieves Guild. About two years after those videos.
EDIT: As for my guesses being low? Yeah, very possibly, but worth remembering the cap was V10 when those videos were recorded.Edited by starkerealm on May 15, 2020 12:33AM0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭
True, I could be thinking of a little later on. It's hard to remember exact numbers from six years ago, but I think you're a little low there. Either way though, it was much, much lower than it is today and not because people just got better at rotations.
So what you guys are saying is that DPS has massively out leveled the game. When newbies in today’s ESO are already almost as powerful as highly experienced players from the early days of the game there lies the problem. It seems the enemies didn’t scale with the player.
Also from what I’ve heard of One Tamriel they made everything across the board super easy especially for newer players. I’ve also heard veteran content was very hard for even experienced players. Any insight as to why they neutered it so hard? Also how much has the CP power creep simplified the game over the years from the original CP cap to where it is now at 810? Without a rework what would be the impact of raising that cap further or would law of demising returns basically negate that anyway?
Insights from long term players are important I think. Helps to put things in perspective a little better.2 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Everest_Lionheart wrote: »It seems the enemies didn’t scale with the player.
Well that's the thing. They did. Sort of. When One Tamriel hit, they basically leveled everything in the game to CP160. Then they gave characters below that level an invisible buff so they'd be on equal footing with everything else. As you level, the buff decreases until it finally disappears at character level CP160. This is what enables everyone to quest anywhere at any level and more or less eliminates "dead zones".
But with so many changes having occurred between One Tamriel and now, it's pretty safe to say that the need for a general tune up would not be out of the realm of possibility."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."2 -
parpin✭✭✭another guy asking for dark souls kind of game in a mmo, these people are mostly solo players who for some unknown reason are playing mmo, the difficulty in a mmo comes from playing with other players( vet dungeon, raids etc) or against other players (pvp, cyrodill) rest of content is meant and purposely made for the story only, yes it made to make sure even 5 year old can do them, and it is same for all mmos, from world of warcraft to FFXIV to gw2 to even second class mmos like swtor etc, that being said you still need to group up for world bosses specially in dlc content, eso has good balance between solo content and group content, you want hard solo content then go play dark souls and games like it, there are plenty out there and more are coming out, but understand what is mmo and how to play them. this ain't single player game and stop asking single player features in a mmo for god sake.1 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭another guy asking for dark souls kind of game in a mmo, these people are mostly solo players who for some unknown reason are playing mmo, the difficulty in a mmo comes from playing with other players( vet dungeon, raids etc) or against other players (pvp, cyrodill) rest of content is meant and purposely made for the story only, yes it made to make sure even 5 year old can do them, and it is same for all mmos, from world of warcraft to FFXIV to gw2 to even second class mmos like swtor etc, that being said you still need to group up for world bosses specially in dlc content, eso has good balance between solo content and group content, you want hard solo content then go play dark souls and games like it, there are plenty out there and more are coming out, but understand what is mmo and how to play them. this ain't single player game and stop asking single player features in a mmo for god sake.
[Snip] We're not asking for Dark Souls in overland, we're asking for overland to not be as mindless as "spam left click to kill, while taking next to no damage".
[Edited for bait]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on May 15, 2020 9:47PM6 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everest_Lionheart wrote: »So what you guys are saying is that DPS has massively out leveled the game.
I'm not saying that here, however it is true.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »When newbies in today’s ESO are already almost as powerful as highly experienced players from the early days of the game there lies the problem.
Not really. There was a full rework of stats back with 1.6.
Here's a level 16 character from pre-1.6:
For the time, and level, some of those stats were ridiculously high. Endgame characters would be pushing around 2k health back then.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »It seems the enemies didn’t scale with the player.
Stats were completely reworked, both for players and enemies across the board, back in 1.6. The only things that didn't scale were the damage/blocking/healing achievements for dungeons and trials. If you ever wondered why you'd get an achievement for dealing damage on your first trial pull, when the kill achievements are much slower... yeah, that's why.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »Also from what I’ve heard of One Tamriel they made everything across the board super easy especially for newer players.
Hilariously, when One Tamriel dropped, there were a lot of really brutal one shots mixed in. Scaling was seriously derped for some things. For example: the zombie vomit attack would wax anyone short of a tank.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »I’ve also heard veteran content was very hard for even experienced players.
Again, some of the scaling was seriously screwed up when One Tamriel dropped. The irony though is the biggest problem was the non-vet dungeons. Those were temporarily more difficult than the veteran versions.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »Any insight as to why they neutered it so hard?
Not really. Having met and interacted with the dev team, the overland experience isn't an accident. Nor is it overcompensation.
Late beta and early overland content was particularly brutal. This started being nerfed as early as 1.1. I suspect, the reasoning is because, if someone cannot clear basic content in an MMO, they'll get frustrated and leave. Meaning a potential revenue stream is gone. MMOs that chase "hardcore players," as their primary demographic, don't tend to last long.
I suspect some internal data came back from Morrowind and Summerset. Vvardenfell is an unusually difficult zone to put new players into, while Summerset is arguably too easy. So there's been some fine tuning going on here.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »Also how much has the CP power creep simplified the game over the years from the original CP cap to where it is now at 810?
The CP ceiling is a symptom, not a cause.
The system was originally designed with the idea that people would simply keep earning indefinitely, accruing smaller and smaller bonuses as you went. Spending caps were put in originally because a handful of people were rocketing ahead of others. There were players who broke CP1000 before the spending cap was implemented.
I'd actually argue that CP made things more complex overall, but not for the right reasons. CP is not what allows things like first pad burns, but it is a facilitator. The raw stat inflation it provides is destructive.
Large scale balance changes have had a greater impact on damage. Summerset, which was 750CP saw a massive jump in the ceiling. Going from memory it nearly doubled the DPS ceiling. That came with the same 30 new CP that we'd seen with every release since the spending cap was implemented (with the exception of Morrowind which got 39.) But the massive changes came from the rework of light/heavy attacks, the implementation of all two handed weapons counting as two set pieces.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »Without a rework what would be the impact of raising that cap further or would law of demising returns basically negate that anyway?
Not really. The problem with raising the cap is that characters would become more uniform, and we'd less build variety. At this point, an 810 will have already gotten to a point where it would take far more points to meaningfully increase the stats they're already focusing. However, being able to turn around and shore up weaknesses that are currently covered in other ways would result in higher damage, as builds were further tuned.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »Insights from long term players are important I think. Helps to put things in perspective a little better.
So, something Rich, Finn, and Jeremy all impressed on me several times is, "it's a different game now [than back at launch]." ESO has undergone massive changes, and Rich and Matt had very energized conversations over the development of Wrothgar regarding the long term direction of the game.
It's no secret that the game launched in pretty rough shape. Vet ranks, and champion points were both in the works very early on to help with that, and One Tamriel was in the works since, at least, Wrothgar. The initial version of One Tamriel needed to be revised, however, the specific overland experience was very deliberate.
Judging by the game's success, and comparing to games that released around the same time which focused heavily on hardcore players, I'm inclined to think the decision was the right business choice.
Overland is easy and aimed to be inclusive, but it's not designed to be difficult content. Simultaneously, more challenging content exists in the four player dungeons and trial content, with a variety of difficulties available.1 -
parpin✭✭✭
[Snip] We're not asking for Dark Souls in overland, we're asking for overland to not be as mindless as "spam left click to kill, while taking next to no damage".
[Edited for bait]
[Snip] that is what you and the op is asking by saying double the enemies hp and their damage out put, so stop acting like you know better, another solo player who is bored of killing enemies fast and want so called challenge. why you do not play pvp if you want challenge?, why not playing raids on hardest difficulty if you want challenge?
you still do understand this is mmo right?
if you do not like, or understand why solo content should be easy in a mmo then you are in wrong place and you wont find any modern mmo which gives you the stuff you are asking( other than some very old mmos like ever quest), this is business first and for most and ZOS so far doing fine with their group content and solo content, even the new chapter (gremoor/skyrim) is still designed to be playable from level 1 let alone for cp 810 player, ZOS wont do what you are asking because it is bad for business, [Snip].
[Edited for removed content and bait]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on May 15, 2020 9:49PM0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭another guy asking for dark souls kind of game in a mmo, these people are mostly solo players who for some unknown reason are playing mmo, the difficulty in a mmo comes from playing with other players( vet dungeon, raids etc) or against other players (pvp, cyrodill) rest of content is meant and purposely made for the story only, yes it made to make sure even 5 year old can do them, and it is same for all mmos, from world of warcraft to FFXIV to gw2 to even second class mmos like swtor etc, that being said you still need to group up for world bosses specially in dlc content, eso has good balance between solo content and group content, you want hard solo content then go play dark souls and games like it, there are plenty out there and more are coming out, but understand what is mmo and how to play them. this ain't single player game and stop asking single player features in a mmo for god sake.
I played WoW on release, sonny boy. Apparently five year olds then were a hell of a lot more competent than five year olds today.
I also played TSW. Not the version they have today. The one before that, during which time they took great pains to get you to actually engage your brain a little bit and think about how to solve puzzles or kill certain enemies.
We're not looking for Dark Souls. We're just looking for something more than "story mode". (Amazing how many times I see that false choice presented as an argument against difficulty adjustments to a game.)"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."4 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
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I played WoW on release, sonny boy. Apparently five year olds then were a hell of a lot more competent than five year olds today.
I also played TSW. Not the version they have today. The one before that, during which time they took great pains to get you to actually engage your brain a little bit and think about how to solve puzzles or kill certain enemies.
We're not looking for Dark Souls. We're just looking for something more than "story mode". (Amazing how many times I see that false choice presented as an argument against difficulty adjustments to a game.)
TSW is an excellent example of why ramping damage will not give you Dark Souls. Dark Souls gets a lot of praise for being exquisitely balanced, which isn't entirely fair. However, it does boast very low time to kill going both ways. That was the problem with TSW, you'd spend a long time hammering on enemies, while they could wax you in a couple hits. With Dark Souls, you're usually going to be a couple hits away from death, but you'll be able to kill most foes on a similar number of hits.
Second thing is, Dark Souls isn't hard. It's unforgiving, but once you get up to speed, the game isn't hard. Once you've put a couple hundred (productive) hours in you're not going to find it difficult. The determining factor is, your skill as a player. The same is true for ESO.
Also, with ESO, difficulty does ramp up as you level, because you start with significant stat bonuses. These used to be more pronounced than they are, but it does make the game much easier for low level characters (not, new players.)0 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭[Snip] that is what you and the op is asking by saying double the enemies hp and their damage out put, so stop acting like you know better
You realise you just proved to me that you in fact didn't read the entire thread, right? I've been arguing for an optional player-sided debuff that would allow each individual player to choose their difficulty, for this entire thread. So stop acting like you know better, when you post before even reading the last few pages of the thread to figure out what you're even replying to.another solo player who is bored of killing enemies fast and want so called challenge.
No, I just want to be able to play overland without falling asleep, even on new characters who don't even have proper gear, spamming their spammable without even using light attacks or buffs.why you do not play pvp if you want challenge?, why not playing raids on hardest difficulty if you want challenge?
I've been playing PvP for the past like 2 years, but have stopped because it's literally unplayable for me. And I don't enjoy running vet HM raids, that sort of gameplay just doesn't appeal to me.
And, again, I'm not even looking for challenge, I'm looking for "doesn't put me to sleep".you still do understand this is mmo right?
And? No MMO I've played has had overland be this easy, and, again, I've been arguing for an optional player-sided debuff that would allow me to get a bit more difficulty out of overland, without affecting you or any other player.if you do not like, or understand why solo content should be easy in a mmo then you are in wrong place
ESO overland isn't easy, it's too easy. Even some newer players are asking why it's so easy (was recently a thread posted on the subreddit, which is known for being a lot more casual than anywhere else in the ESO community; and I've had multiple discussions with newer players both in zone chat and in guild chat about the difficulty of overland), though of course you guys will fervently deny that this is the case.and you wont find any modern mmo which gives you the stuff you are asking( other than some very old mmos like ever quest)
I'm literally exclusively playing overland (with some PvP on the side) in GW2, precisely because it's far, far better than overland in ESO, but okay.this is business first and for most and ZOS so far doing fine with their group content and solo content
Having half a dozen threads crop up on your official game forums about overland difficulty, as well as players being vocal about it in game, really doesn't seem like they're "doing fine" to me.even the new chapter (gremoor/skyrim) is still designed to be playable from level 1 let alone for cp 810 player
Which is why I won't be buying it, because it's even more all-flavour-with-no-substance content to throw onto the pile.ZOS wont do what you are asking because it is bad for business
ZOS has already stated that they've heard our complaints about overland difficulty, and are looking into ways to address it. I only hope they address it in a sensible way.
[Removed quote]
[Edited for removed content]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on May 15, 2020 9:51PM2 -
parpin✭✭✭
I played WoW on release, sonny boy. Apparently five year olds then were a hell of a lot more competent than five year olds today.
I also played TSW. Not the version they have today. The one before that, during which time they took great pains to get you to actually engage your brain a little bit and think about how to solve puzzles or kill certain enemies.
We're not looking for Dark Souls. We're just looking for something more than "story mode". (Amazing how many times I see that false choice presented as an argument against difficulty adjustments to a game.)
and why world of warcraft had to become much more casual friendly and today's wow is much more easier if the vanilla was fine? why billizzars lowered the difficulty and survived for 16 years? if vanilla/classic wow was fine why patch it several times and change it. you mean you know better than billizard who survived for 16 years and still the biggest mmo out there. you know eso difficulty is what billizard did to change classic and open world content after that, and they both are doing fine, omg i played wow at release and it was difficult but they changed it did you ever asked yourself why? if the difficulty was fine why would billizard change it?
same goes for the dead game tsw, oh now ZOS should follow foot steps of dead game, funcom took down the game and made much more casual friendly version in order to survive and even after that they still failed and swl is another dead game.
you are giving example of totally changed games or dead games to make non sense point sonny boy?
your post made me realize who you people are and i am sure ZOS is smarter to listen to you and your kind and follow a dead game, i am wasting my time here, peace out.Edited by parpin on May 15, 2020 3:30AM0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
TSW is an excellent example of why ramping damage will not give you Dark Souls. Dark Souls gets a lot of praise for being exquisitely balanced, which isn't entirely fair. However, it does boast very low time to kill going both ways. That was the problem with TSW, you'd spend a long time hammering on enemies, while they could wax you in a couple hits. With Dark Souls, you're usually going to be a couple hits away from death, but you'll be able to kill most foes on a similar number of hits.
Second thing is, Dark Souls isn't hard. It's unforgiving, but once you get up to speed, the game isn't hard. Once you've put a couple hundred (productive) hours in you're not going to find it difficult. The determining factor is, your skill as a player. The same is true for ESO.
To be honest, I've never actually played Dark Souls. But I see it referenced all the time as the most difficult game ever made, or close to it at any rate, so I just went with it because that was his intended meaning.
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
parpin✭✭✭
You realise you just proved to me that you in fact didn't read the entire thread, right? I've been arguing for an optional player-sided debuff that would allow each individual player to choose their difficulty, for this entire thread. So stop acting like you know better, when you post before even reading the last few pages of the thread to figure out what you're even replying to.
No, I just want to be able to play overland without falling asleep, even on new characters who don't even have proper gear, spamming their spammable without even using light attacks or buffs.
I've been playing PvP for the past like 2 years, but have stopped because it's literally unplayable for me. And I don't enjoy running vet HM raids, that sort of gameplay just doesn't appeal to me.
And, again, I'm not even looking for challenge, I'm looking for "doesn't put me to sleep".
And? No MMO I've played has had overland be this easy, and, again, I've been arguing for an optional player-sided debuff that would allow me to get a bit more difficulty out of overland, without affecting you or any other player.
ESO overland isn't easy, it's too easy. Even some newer players are asking why it's so easy (was recently a thread posted on the subreddit, which is known for being a lot more casual than anywhere else in the ESO community; and I've had multiple discussions with newer players both in zone chat and in guild chat about the difficulty of overland), though of course you guys will fervently deny that this is the case.
I'm literally exclusively playing overland (with some PvP on the side) in GW2, precisely because it's far, far better than overland in ESO, but okay.
Having half a dozen threads crop up on your official game forums about overland difficulty, as well as players being vocal about it in game, really doesn't seem like they're "doing fine" to me.
Which is why I won't be buying it, because it's even more all-flavour-with-no-substance content to throw onto the pile.
ZOS has already stated that they've heard our complaints about overland difficulty, and are looking into ways to address it. I only hope they address it in a sensible way.
[Removed quote]
[Edited for removed content]
this is my last post here because obviously this is pointless discussion.
i am not whining because i am not the one who complaining and writing negative post, it is you and i am simply defending ZOS and responding to you which was mistake to begin with.
you pretty much confirmed you are solo player by saying you do not like raids and you can not play pvp, so i was right you are solo player in a mmo that is where all problems starts.
and gw2 open world is harder than eso? what? i can solo champions in that game with my mesmer easy let alone with ranger, other classes can do it too with little bit of effort and skill from player.
what are you guys talking about? one guy giving me dead game as example and you are giving gw2 as example, what?
man this is point less specially with your examples, peace out i am out of here.Edited by ZOS_Volpe on May 15, 2020 9:53PM0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
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To be honest, I've never actually played Dark Souls. But I see it referenced all the time as the most difficult game ever made, or close to it at any rate, so I just went with it because that was his intended meaning.
It was his intended meaning.
There are a lot of people who hold Dark Souls up as something it's not, to justify their position. With TSW specifically, Funcom's team held up Dark Souls as proof that there was a market for really hard games. Except, like I said, Dark Souls isn't hard. It's lethal, and has absolutely no respect for your time. But, that's not the same thing as being hard.
I heartily recommend it if you want to kill some time. It's an unforgiving combat system, but very enjoyable if you can come to grips with it. It can also be extremely frustrating if you get impatient with it. It's got a marvelous quality for punishing impatience, so, plan accordingly. That's part of where the difficulty reputation comes from. If you're careful, it's very manageable. If you try to rush things, it will get out of hand fast.
There is a major similarity between ESO and Dark Souls. Both games put a priority on player proficiency over your build. If you know what you're doing you can do some really wild stuff in both games. However, if you're just starting out, they'll take your teeth.0 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭you pretty much confirmed you are solo player by saying you do not like raids and you can not play pvp, so i was right you are solo player in a mmo that is where all problems starts.
Nice putting words in my mouth.
I don't play PvP because it's a broken, laggy, unplayable mess of unbalanced and frankly unenjoyable gameplay, that bugs and lags out so frequently for me that my anger levels peak barely even 10 minutes into playing it. Between the horrible ping, *** targeting, skills not firing, ultimates consuming my ult but not properly firing, potions firing the sound but not being consumed, CC break failing to actually break CC, dodge roll failing to actually dodge attacks, resources somehow disappearing into thin air, I've come to the conclusion that it's simply better for my sanity to not do PvP, no matter how much I enjoy it.
I don't do vet HM trials pushing scores, because that gameplay doesn't appeal to me. Vet base game and DLC dungeons going after achievements? Sure. Vet dungeon and trial runs with guild mates? Sign me up. Specifically running vet dungeons and trials pushing scores? Nah.
Nothing to do with me being a solo player, everything to do with my taste in content, and the game being an unplayable mess in PvP.and gw2 open world is harder than eso? what? i can solo champions in than game with my mesmer easy let alone with ranger, other classes can do it too with little bit of effort and skill from player.
And I've solo'd world bosses in ESO on a level 43 Nightblade with no CP allocated, and a mixture of green/blue gear that's half set pieces and half random pieces, where I'm arguably at my weakest while leveling.
In my experience, GW2 overland is harder than ESO. Mobs don't just immediately drop dead from a single skill cast, you can't just turn your brain off and mow through mobs in higher level zones (especially not expansion and LW zones), you can't just sit in a stun and be completely fine coming out of the stun, you actually need to make use your defensive tools (evade, blocks, blinds, heals), you need to decide when it's best to use your defensive tools since they're often on fairly long cooldowns or consume too many resources (in the case of evade and defensive weapon skills for Thief), not to mention there's actual content meant for groups in GW2 overland.
Almost none of that is the case in ESO. Mobs immediately drop dead from a single skill cast on even a half-built PvE character, mobs have some of the dumbest AI and some of the most pointless mechanics that just allow you to mow through them with stuns and slows being just annoyances instead of actual threats, you can literally sit in a stun and come out of it with next to no health lost, defensive tools are there simply as an option to not be annoyed by mobs rather than actually being defensive tools that keep you alive, there's next to no penalty for using a defensive tool at the wrong time (except maybe on a magicka character if you dodge at the wrong time), and the only content that's really meant for groups is world bosses (including dragons), but even most of them can be soloed by someone who has half an idea of what they're doing.what are you guys talking about? one guy giving me dead game as example and you are giving gw2 as example, what?
man this is point less specially with your examples, peace out i am out of here.
K, bye.1 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
It was his intended meaning.
There are a lot of people who hold Dark Souls up as something it's not, to justify their position. With TSW specifically, Funcom's team held up Dark Souls as proof that there was a market for really hard games. Except, like I said, Dark Souls isn't hard. It's lethal, and has absolutely no respect for your time. But, that's not the same thing as being hard.
I heartily recommend it if you want to kill some time. It's an unforgiving combat system, but very enjoyable if you can come to grips with it. It can also be extremely frustrating if you get impatient with it. It's got a marvelous quality for punishing impatience, so, plan accordingly. That's part of where the difficulty reputation comes from. If you're careful, it's very manageable. If you try to rush things, it will get out of hand fast.
There is a major similarity between ESO and Dark Souls. Both games put a priority on player proficiency over your build. If you know what you're doing you can do some really wild stuff in both games. However, if you're just starting out, they'll take your teeth.
I have to wonder though, if there was a thread on any imagined Dark Souls forum insisting that the game needed to be harder? I do cite it's difficulty, but I haven't delved into the nuances of it being "fair" about it. To be fair, all of the reviews I've read by actual gamers, instead of game journalists, have said roughly the same thing, "hard, but fair". As pointed out though, once you have the mechanics, it's not all that hard. It's ironic, I've seen a million posts on MMO/SP game forums about people needing to learn to play, and then once people start doing just that it's "the game needs to be harder".
Aside from some observations however, my argument is still limited developer resources, and where they're supposed to stop work to do this? They could jack up the difficulty in overland 10 fold as far as I'm concerned, I could still play it. I could probably still do a lot of the stuff I do, or have done. I may have to stop trying WBs solo, or random "wander on someone about to get owned attempting to solo and helping out". I am not the best player that ever walked into this game, but I'd wager I'm in the top 15%, just based on my own past experiences with gaming and progression raiding. But developer resources are finite, and something has to be sacrificed to devote time to this project, and I'm curious what everyone thinks that should be? PvP? Any work they're doing to quash lag in Cyrodill? They can't stop content, since that's where their money is, so something has to give.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »I have to wonder though, if there was a thread on any imagined Dark Souls forum insisting that the game needed to be harder?
Wouldn't matter. FromSoft really doesn't pay attention to feedback, or the foreign community at all, really.robertthebard wrote: »I do cite it's difficulty, but I haven't delved into the nuances of it being "fair" about it. To be fair, all of the reviews I've read by actual gamers, instead of game journalists...
Okay, well I no longer care about anything you might have to say.0 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
Wouldn't matter. FromSoft really doesn't pay attention to feedback, or the foreign community at all, really.
Okay, well I no longer care about anything you might have to say.
Uh oh, found a game journalist...
I wonder, why would anyone possibly have a low opinion of them? I watched one struggling with jumping in Cuphead, maybe? Or the articles about how games need an easy mode, even when they're not built for one? The game escapes me, maybe Sakiro, or one of the other Souls clones. Or the Stirling incident, where he messed up a puzzle, and claimed the game was bugged beyond all belief? Yeah, they're absolute bastions of the gaming community... However, if you are truly a game journalist, I now know I don't have to pay any attention to what you have to say.0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So, just for fun, I hopped onto the PTS, made a new character which consisted of the first randomly generated character when you click the new character button, skipped the tutorial and immediately ran over to join the fighters guild. I then just slotted the junk gear you're given on new characters, which was a two handed sword, a light jacket and pants, and proceeded to do the first fighters guild quest as noobishly as I possibly could. No, not even green quality gear. Just the plain white ones.
I did it by standing still and mashing buttons. Did not slot any CP points. Got to level 3 from the exploration XP, which I deposited both attribute points into health and the skill points into assassin's blade and veiled strike. Of the two, I mashed veiled strike. Sometimes. Mostly I just clicked the left mouse button. No health potions either. Just passive health regen.
Died a grand total of two times. Once when the clannfear showed up. The second was to Doshia, after I almost had her beat. All other enemies were no threat whatsoever. Literally just standing there in the fire with more fire being hurled at me while I mashed the left mouse button. They died in very short order and I was not in any danger at all.
As for the clannfear and Doshia, again, just mashing left mouse button and vieled strike. Didn't try to flank or dodge or anything like that. No LA weaving either. Just click, click, click, click, click, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, click, click, click, click.....
Deliberately let them hit me until my health was really low, which is when I moved like I was running away, much like a total noob would. Oh, and on Doshia, I killed maybe two of her orbs. I'm not sure if I actually got the second one or not before it popped. Total fight time on the second attempt on her was maybe a minute if I'm being generous.
So, despite having died twice, what are my impressions from this little experiment? Was it hard? Do I think it would be even remotely challenging or rewarding to a brand spanking new player who has just gotten into ESO as their very first MMO ever?
There can be only one response to that question.
You can take from that whatever you like, but as for me, it's pretty clear that ESO could use a little tune up. Doesn't have to be uber hard or anything. I just think it would be nice if you couldn't win by falling asleep and drooling all over the keyboard."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."5 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Glurin, Doshia and Gutripper both need tune ups. They got neutered back in the day and never recovered.
I supposed, given they're both still in discrete solo instances, it's better to err on the side of too easy than too hard, but, yeah. That example? They could do with some love.0 -
Jayroo✭✭✭✭I've yearned for some kind of vet questing mode that gives purple gear for deconing and harder content.
I adore the story of the quests, but it lacks any sort of challenge. I'm glad this has been brought up3 -
Dahveed✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You realise you just proved to me that you in fact didn't read the entire thread, right? I've been arguing for an optional player-sided debuff that would allow each individual player to choose their difficulty, for this entire thread. So stop acting like you know better, when you post before even reading the last few pages of the thread to figure out what you're even replying to.
No, I just want to be able to play overland without falling asleep, even on new characters who don't even have proper gear, spamming their spammable without even using light attacks or buffs.
I've been playing PvP for the past like 2 years, but have stopped because it's literally unplayable for me. And I don't enjoy running vet HM raids, that sort of gameplay just doesn't appeal to me.
And, again, I'm not even looking for challenge, I'm looking for "doesn't put me to sleep".
And? No MMO I've played has had overland be this easy, and, again, I've been arguing for an optional player-sided debuff that would allow me to get a bit more difficulty out of overland, without affecting you or any other player.
ESO overland isn't easy, it's too easy. Even some newer players are asking why it's so easy (was recently a thread posted on the subreddit, which is known for being a lot more casual than anywhere else in the ESO community; and I've had multiple discussions with newer players both in zone chat and in guild chat about the difficulty of overland), though of course you guys will fervently deny that this is the case.
I'm literally exclusively playing overland (with some PvP on the side) in GW2, precisely because it's far, far better than overland in ESO, but okay.
Having half a dozen threads crop up on your official game forums about overland difficulty, as well as players being vocal about it in game, really doesn't seem like they're "doing fine" to me.
Which is why I won't be buying it, because it's even more all-flavour-with-no-substance content to throw onto the pile.
ZOS has already stated that they've heard our complaints about overland difficulty, and are looking into ways to address it. I only hope they address it in a sensible way.
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ZOS has already stated that they've heard our complaints about overland difficulty, and are looking into ways to address it. I only hope they address it in a sensible way.
Can you give a source for this? (Not because I want to argue, I'm actually done posting here but still lurking.)
I'm actually in the "I want things to be much harder" camp, and I'd be curious to see their official(ish?) take on this.
Thanks.Edited by ZOS_Volpe on May 15, 2020 9:56PM0 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭
ZOS has already stated that they've heard our complaints about overland difficulty, and are looking into ways to address it. I only hope they address it in a sensible way.
Can you give a source for this? (Not because I want to argue, I'm actually done posting here but still lurking.)
I'm actually in the "I want things to be much harder" camp, and I'd be curious to see their official(ish?) take on this.
Thanks.
Might have misremembered it. I distinctly remember a fairly recent interview either about Harrowstorm or Greymoor, where at the end they vaguely touched on overland and questing difficulty, and the interviewee (I remember Rich, might have been someone else) basically gave a quick passing "we've heard that not everyone is happy with the current difficulty of overland, and we're looking into ways to address it", but I can't seem to find it. I'll continue looking, and update if I do.Edited by ZOS_Volpe on May 15, 2020 9:57PM0 -
Galwylin✭✭✭✭✭I've played MMORPGs since old EverQuest in which if a group gained a level or even close to it in a single day you were considered to have basically facerolled the content. I certainly don't want to go back to that. But the biggest reason I don't care at all for these suggestions is the endgame content isn't the overland. It basically hasn't been the overland since EverQuest. The releases have been at best anemic from ZOS in which you content is basically do the same thing over 30 times. I don't want to see them go from the pitiful amount they develop to shift to something that is by their own design for beginner players.
All new content is developed for players coming into the game. That's why the new character creation drops you off in them today. When you started in Morrowind it drop you off in Morrowind. Summerset in Summerset, etc. The overland is for new players. Veteran players should stop wanting those areas changed because it simply can't be. Some slider is never going to be enough because it would do the job you can already do by removing the progression you have achieved simply by not spending all your Champion Points or not wearing any armor sets except those you find in the area you're currently in or staying in greens. Whatever it is you want you already have.
But even that might not be enough because this game isn't exactly designed around gear and stats as it is around player expected skill. If you've played for a length of time, veteran content is expecting you to have the skills to survive regardless of gear/stats. That's why there are no gear checks to enter. The dps checks are dependent on gear but we've been so far above those that I doubt we even would notice one if we encountered it.
The solution is simply. Push yourself more. Stop hanging out in overland that is designed for new players. If you're feeling godly enough go solo veteran dungeons. Take just one other person with you. Ignore the holy trinity of tank, healer and dps taking only dps. Or only healers. Or maybe ask for more than the paltry eight delves, two dungeons and one trail we get for our $40 so maybe we aren't noticing what $60 bought just six years ago. Crying that you wish more steak was in the baby food seems so ironic at this point.1 -
Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
Different people enjoy & experience things differently. Like, going to the movies - I like a nice empty theater so I can watch the movie in peace - other people like a big boisterous crowd, and do things like clap & cheer (god, that would suck).
Games? I play games for entertainment & relaxation mostly, not for "adrenaline rush". Finishing a Big Impressive Multi-stage JRPG boss fight leaves me thinking "thank god that's over", not "Woohoo! /fistpump"
There's probably a correlation to those "Gamer personality types" studies people have made - you know, the ones where they classify gamers in categories like Achiever, Socializer, Explorer, Killer? (Achiever/Killer types go for pvp and direct competition, etc. That kind of thing)
Personally, I've never been a "Challenge" gamer - throwing myself at the Cliffs Of Difficulty in order to feel that rush you talk about? Isn't what I go for most of the time. It's not what I look for in a game. So yeah - I don't pvp, I'm not interested in leaderboards, and I don't turn up the difficulty setting on most things. (Heck, I turned down the difficulty of Dragon Age:Origins because I was sick of the tedious combat but wanted to play out the story to see where it went. Didn't help that I was playing a fighter/rogue party in a game where AoE mages were the meta.)
(hmm, also like the difference between people who are "passionate" about things, and others who are more low-key. My mother can tell you all about how what she's eating is her favorite thing ever - this week; or she'll totally love that contractor she got to do her painting - until they do something wrong, at which point they become utter scum who she always thought were terrible. Meanwhile, I couldn't give you a list of my "10 favorite" anything, because they're all pretty good and I can't really pick one as better than the others. /shrug)
tl;dr - not everyone enjoys games for the same reasons you do. Even the same exact games.
110% Agree. But some people are so narrow minded that they can't even conceptualize that. Also, this need for these people to put others down for not being at the same skill level is getting tiresome, they've raised this passive-aggressive hyperbole to an art form.0 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭Veinblood1965 wrote: »I read all 600 plus posts and came to the conclusion that I like Pickles.
I have consulted with my cat, and she has determined that I too like pickles.
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Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
I'm not saying that here, however it is true.
Not really. There was a full rework of stats back with 1.6.
Here's a level 16 character from pre-1.6:
For the time, and level, some of those stats were ridiculously high. Endgame characters would be pushing around 2k health back then.
Stats were completely reworked, both for players and enemies across the board, back in 1.6. The only things that didn't scale were the damage/blocking/healing achievements for dungeons and trials. If you ever wondered why you'd get an achievement for dealing damage on your first trial pull, when the kill achievements are much slower... yeah, that's why.
Hilariously, when One Tamriel dropped, there were a lot of really brutal one shots mixed in. Scaling was seriously derped for some things. For example: the zombie vomit attack would wax anyone short of a tank.
Again, some of the scaling was seriously screwed up when One Tamriel dropped. The irony though is the biggest problem was the non-vet dungeons. Those were temporarily more difficult than the veteran versions.
Not really. Having met and interacted with the dev team, the overland experience isn't an accident. Nor is it overcompensation.
Late beta and early overland content was particularly brutal. This started being nerfed as early as 1.1. I suspect, the reasoning is because, if someone cannot clear basic content in an MMO, they'll get frustrated and leave. Meaning a potential revenue stream is gone. MMOs that chase "hardcore players," as their primary demographic, don't tend to last long.
I suspect some internal data came back from Morrowind and Summerset. Vvardenfell is an unusually difficult zone to put new players into, while Summerset is arguably too easy. So there's been some fine tuning going on here.
The CP ceiling is a symptom, not a cause.
The system was originally designed with the idea that people would simply keep earning indefinitely, accruing smaller and smaller bonuses as you went. Spending caps were put in originally because a handful of people were rocketing ahead of others. There were players who broke CP1000 before the spending cap was implemented.
I'd actually argue that CP made things more complex overall, but not for the right reasons. CP is not what allows things like first pad burns, but it is a facilitator. The raw stat inflation it provides is destructive.
Large scale balance changes have had a greater impact on damage. Summerset, which was 750CP saw a massive jump in the ceiling. Going from memory it nearly doubled the DPS ceiling. That came with the same 30 new CP that we'd seen with every release since the spending cap was implemented (with the exception of Morrowind which got 39.) But the massive changes came from the rework of light/heavy attacks, the implementation of all two handed weapons counting as two set pieces.
Not really. The problem with raising the cap is that characters would become more uniform, and we'd less build variety. At this point, an 810 will have already gotten to a point where it would take far more points to meaningfully increase the stats they're already focusing. However, being able to turn around and shore up weaknesses that are currently covered in other ways would result in higher damage, as builds were further tuned.
So, something Rich, Finn, and Jeremy all impressed on me several times is, "it's a different game now [than back at launch]." ESO has undergone massive changes, and Rich and Matt had very energized conversations over the development of Wrothgar regarding the long term direction of the game.
It's no secret that the game launched in pretty rough shape. Vet ranks, and champion points were both in the works very early on to help with that, and One Tamriel was in the works since, at least, Wrothgar. The initial version of One Tamriel needed to be revised, however, the specific overland experience was very deliberate.
Judging by the game's success, and comparing to games that released around the same time which focused heavily on hardcore players, I'm inclined to think the decision was the right business choice.
Overland is easy and aimed to be inclusive, but it's not designed to be difficult content. Simultaneously, more challenging content exists in the four player dungeons and trial content, with a variety of difficulties available.
Thanks for all of this.
I’ve mentioned in this thread a few times that I am fairly new to this game so the end user experience is way different. Part of me wishes I had seen where it came from and part of me is glad I waited to have a more fleshed out and complete experience to play.
I’ve yet to experience the ups and downs of rebalancing in this game, but have left others because of constant changes, mostly due to P2W mechanics. I hate it when there is a forced meta and that meta changes because other P2W mechanics are introduced. I don’t see that as a problem here. Even with changes it’s still possible to adjust so long as you invest time to relearn mechanics or in game currency/material to adjust sets. For people here that haven’t played games like this changes may be a huge deal but the nerfs don’t necessarily target the wallet unless of course you want to make an instant change.
I suspect you are right in that overland content is pretty much exactly where they want it or at least where they wanted it back when One Tamriel released. Several year of adjustments, stronger sets, new classes and expanded CP have grown past the game. It seems they have prioritized new content over scaling existing content to match. Understandable given new content is their bread and butter. Balancing selected content seems to be on their radar as well. You can see that in the patches.
LA/HA rework looked like an attempt to balance the overall game but was just not received well because players don’t want to lose all of their power or progression. Wouldn’t this go a long way towards also better balancing the base content? It seems however the players don’t want to have their damage affected negatively only have the enemies buffed to a certain level to increase difficulty. I think a viable solution would be a little of both, maybe not the way they have presented the LA/HA changes but some form of change is probably warranted even though it’s not a popular opinion.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everest_Lionheart wrote: »I’ve yet to experience the ups and downs of rebalancing in this game, but have left others because of constant changes, mostly due to P2W mechanics.
Yeah, ESO tries to stay away from P2W as much as possible. The most you'll usually see is acceleration towards fixed caps.
The one thing I'm legitimately uncomfortable with is the skyshards for crowns combined with being able buy skill line completion. Either one of these would be fine on their own, but combined they're a nasty situation for low level PvP.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »I hate it when there is a forced meta and that meta changes because other P2W mechanics are introduced.
Yeah, that doesn't happen here often. The biggest problems have been the new classes when they were released. At launch, Warden was ridiculously strong in PvP, and Necro was ridiculously powerful across the board. In both cases, they've been brought back down. They're still very strong in the right hands, but we're back to a situation where, "the best," class picks are usually base game ones.
EDIT: The Imperial race is another example. It's a very powerful racial pick, and used to be even stronger. It's not, really, P2W, but it was a fair accusation at one time, and I still recommend it as a top shelf pick for Tanks and Stam DPS.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »I don’t see that as a problem here. Even with changes it’s still possible to adjust so long as you invest time to relearn mechanics or in game currency/material to adjust sets. For people here that haven’t played games like this changes may be a huge deal but the nerfs don’t necessarily target the wallet unless of course you want to make an instant change.
Yeah, and particularly for PvP, you can see pretty significant meta shifts based on some non-obvious things. Two years ago, Bleed was ridiculously powerful in PvP, because it bypassed the victim's damage resists and didn't have a major visual cue to indicate you'd been hit. It got nerfed, the damage resist bypass, but every bleed in the game was pumped up to partially compensate. People saw the damage bump and immediately flocked to it, even though, as I said, it had been nerfed.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »I suspect you are right in that overland content is pretty much exactly where they want it or at least where they wanted it back when One Tamriel released. Several year of adjustments, stronger sets, new classes and expanded CP have grown past the game. It seems they have prioritized new content over scaling existing content to match. Understandable given new content is their bread and butter. Balancing selected content seems to be on their radar as well. You can see that in the patches.
Existing content does get tuned when there are issues. However the priority is on cleaning out roadblocks. Doshia was an example of that back at launch, where she could be a complete show stopper, and she was nerfed.
Last year, Finn's team went through and toned down a couple DLC dungeon bosses that had completion rates which would break groups.
There is a pattern to overland difficulty, and it roughly follows the original leveling pattern. So, the starter islands (Stros M'kai, Betnikh, Khenarthi's Roost, Bleak Rock, and Bal Foyen) are the easiest content in the game. Difficulty will build as you go through an alliance (ex: Stros M'kai/Betnikh -> Glenumbra -> Stormhaven -> Rivenspire -> Alik'r -> Bangkorai -> Coldharbour.)
Originally there were three difficulty versions for each of the base game zones, which leveled everything up to vet ranks (Silver was v1-v5, Gold was v6-v10.) However Silver and Gold zones were removed with One Tamriel, and you now complete Silver and Gold using the default versions of those zones.
Above that, DLC zones tend to be a step up in difficulty. Overland isn't much of a jump, but quests can get much less forgiving. It's also a little idiosyncratic depending on your build.
Of course, once you're up and running vet content, you can pretty much smear all of this. But, if you're going through content as you're learning the game, there is a definite progression curve. If you grind to cap, which a lot of players do because South Park told them, "that's how you play an MMO," you skip more than 90% of the content.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »LA/HA rework looked like an attempt to balance the overall game but was just not received well because players don’t want to lose all of their power or progression. Wouldn’t this go a long way towards also better balancing the base content?
No. The damage loss would have been significant, but not meaningful for overland content. Ironically, it might have even increased DPS for newer players who can weave but have a hard time with sustain.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »It seems however the players don’t want to have their damage affected negatively only have the enemies buffed to a certain level to increase difficulty. I think a viable solution would be a little of both, maybe not the way they have presented the LA/HA changes but some form of change is probably warranted even though it’s not a popular opinion.
That's a common thread. Players complain about overland being to easy. Players complain about the stuff they like being nerfed, and asking for the weaker stuff to be brought up to par with the over performing builds. The problem is on the whole, the statistical difficulty for ESO is fairly flat. The starter island mobs have reduced health, but once you're out in the main game, enemies will be roughly as durable as one another (in the same kind of content), the difficulty climb is in mechanical complexity over time.
Now, to be fair, these two groups aren't always the same people, but the goals do conflict. Make it harder, or make players more powerful, don't do both, because that will close the door on newer players.Edited by starkerealm on May 15, 2020 7:04PM0