Why is this game so easy?

Tandor

Adonexus wrote: »

I had the same thoughts as I lvled. But I figured I might as well enjoy the story

That is, after all, the heart of the game. People who find the game too easy are often those same people who find quests boring. They're playing the wrong type of game.

Faulgor

Tandor wrote: »

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Adonexus wrote: »

I had the same thoughts as I lvled. But I figured I might as well enjoy the story

That is, after all, the heart of the game. People who find the game too easy are often those same people who find quests boring. They're playing the wrong type of game.

On the contrary. I love quests, but they feel meaningless when the final boss of the questline falls over after three light attacks. Putting the whole weight of the game on questing is also not a good solution IMO, people eventually only show up for content releases, and one bad story (cough Greymoor) can sour the whole game.

All my friends already quit because the game is too easy. Well, I say that's the reason, but the issue is interwoven with other things. There is just no point to maxing out your character - in gear, skills, etc, the meat of a progression RPG - unless you plan to do group dungeons or trials, two insanely restrictive modes as they are only for 4 or 12 players. So if say you usually play in a group of 3 friends, or any number between 5 and 11, you're just out of luck. Whole dedicated raiding guilds threw in the towel because they just had to quit too many trial runs because one person or another was missing.

So what ESO really needs is challenging PvE content that can be tackled with any group size. I don't care how they do it, but more rewarding difficulty settings for overland content are an obvious solution that ZOS just seems too disinterested to pursue.

Thechuckage

Tandor wrote: »

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Adonexus wrote: »

I had the same thoughts as I lvled. But I figured I might as well enjoy the story

That is, after all, the heart of the game. People who find the game too easy are often those same people who find quests boring. They're playing the wrong type of game.

Its possible to have great story and at least somewhat challenging gameplay. SWTOR Imperial agent has one of if not the best in game story I've ever played. But there was no way you could clear it all buy using just basic attacks, or slapping down a boss in seconds.

The scaling is not working properly IMO, or maybe its scaling to gear instead of CP levels. Maybe it could get fixed with the CP rework, but I'm not going to be holding my breath.

Mayrael

Because ESO overland PvE is made for milk drinkers, for people who like to play browser games where you have to water some plants etc. It's a game made for total gaming casuals, not just for ESO casuals. You may never see ESO before and you still will be able to finish 99% of ESO overland content. ESO used to be amazing and challenging, overland veteran zones was preparing us for more difficult content. It had challenging quests and challenging fights, I was proud because of finishing some quests, titles was worth something, helping each other was crucial and very welcomed.

Dusk_Coven

It's mechanics exploitation (weaving, animation cancellation) plus short-sighted demands (CP power creep) that is counter to the global scaling ZOS uses. Then there's giving everyone CP benefits even when your toon is under level 50. Reduces grind but overpowers you when you are playing new toons.
Players push for more power in various ways when the challenge comes with LESS power.

If you look at mods for single player games, the most popular ones after naked-toon mods are challenge mods that increase difficulty WITHOUT giving you more power. It's generally about doing more with LESS rather than simply getting more power with gear and abilities. Mods that give you piles of powerful items just end up ruining the game.

ESO gives people so many options to do things and try things but so many people just go with meta then say things ae too easy and they are bored. Duh.

juliandracos

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

They want people to play right away the same content as their friends when they join.
Not spend weeks grinding or buying a level jump item to access the newest content, or, like FFXIV, buy a level jump that also unlocks all story so you can play in the same area, because areas are level and story locked.

Most of the PvE content is just too easy. The reason being is not so that you can play with your friends. Rather, it is such that anyone can do almost any of the content in the game. That is the problem.

You can have everything scale, as it does now. However, there can be some PvE content that it is best to group up for. Or, if they are done solo, will require top end gear and strategy. There should be a progression of content difficulty that a player can experience. The game is not designed for the content to have any degree of difficulty outside of PvP, dungeons, and trials.

Currently, there seems to be three different games. You have PvP (which they have to bribe players to do battlegrounds), there is the Vet Dungeon/Trial group (your min/max hardcore/do it as fast as you can crowd), and then there is the you don't need to even pay attention to anything solo PvE game. The solo PvE experience becomes even more of a yawn due to CP points being available to all toons. Currently, it is just world bosses and sometimes world events that people do as a group. I would not even call it grouping up. It is show up because it takes a few lower CP toons 4+ PCs to take it out. Then you move on.

I think what the OP wants, and is certainly what I want, is a bit of a challenge. Yes, you can have PCs scale up to match the zone content. However, you can make at least some of the zone content challenging. How about having quests that you will need to group up for that are more than just finding a world boss and killing it? How about making the zone story quests instanced? This solves the problem of your CP 810 going through and ruining things for the newer players. It also allows to scale to difficulty for the level/group size.

Most things I suppose can be kept on snooze mode. However, I am not a person to repeat dungeons for gear so I am not sure what this game has to offer me. This is why I have not subscribed. Why pay a monthly fee just to access more of the same easy content or do dungeons? I am hoping that Camelot Unchained comes out soon, but I am not hopeful.

Morgha_Kul

It's been a while since I read any of this thread, so I may be repeating myself here...

I don't know that the problem is that the overland content is too hard. It's that players are allowed to become too powerful. When you can obliterate whole groups of enemies in one shot, enemies that other, newer players take several minutes to defeat... the problem isn't the enemies.

The discrepancy between the lower and higher power characters is too extreme. THAT is the real problem.

starkerealm

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

It's been a while since I read any of this thread, so I may be repeating myself here...

I don't know that the problem is that the overland content is too hard. It's that players are allowed to become too powerful. When you can obliterate whole groups of enemies in one shot, enemies that other, newer players take several minutes to defeat... the problem isn't the enemies.

The discrepancy between the lower and higher power characters is too extreme. THAT is the real problem.

I'm probably repeating myself as well, but, it's not the characters, it's the players. The statistical power growth on characters isn't that impressive. The biggest factor is the player. That's where you see the real power explosion. So, you'll see experienced players, even on low level characters, who just smear through content, while actual newbies struggle.

There's no real way to address that, either. Because it comes down to things like DoT/AoE uptime management, which you can't do away with, and animation canceling (specifically weaving) which you also can't get rid of without seriously altering how the game plays.

deviousthevile

The main problem is everyone wants something different. Yes, there are numerous outcries for harder overland content now. Back when ESO first launched, it was the other way around. I remember quest bosses that people struggled super hard to get passed. If you look at the posts back in 2014, there are a bunch of people complaining content was too hard. I wish I could remember the name of the boss. It was like Doria or something that started with a D. Point is, we are at this point because the way ZoS pandered to the community voice in it's early years. Now we are stuck with a less responsive group of people that are tired of people calling for nerfs or buffs to whatever they feel should be changed.
I am in NO WAY disagreeing with things said, I am just trying to shed some light on why things are the way they are now. The community (no one person can take the blame or credit for this) abused the voice we were given. That's why there is no longer a support phone number like we had in 2014. We as gamers are hard to please because we are split into groups with different opinions, goals and expectations. My best advice is do the things you enjoy in the game. Even if you have to just power through leveling, there has got to be something that interests you. For some it's Trails and Achievements, for some it's PvP. Find your happy place and live there. That's why I'm still here after 6 years of ups and downs. I will admit I am easier on the company (ZoS) than most, but it is only because I still love my day to day routine in game. So if there is ABSOLUTELY nothing that you enjoy, maybe ESO just isn't right for you. As much as I hate to say that to anyone, because I like meeting new people and forging new friendships, I would rather have a smaller player base than have people feel/ act out in a toxic fashion. Well that's my piece. Much love for all the farmers, grinders, killers and chillers out there!

*drops mic*

SilverBride

I think it's fine just as it is. I enjoy going into a new zone and completing all the objectives, such as finding all the Lorebooks, unlocking all the Wayshrines, completing all the quest hubs, etc.. My enjoyment comes from completing everything, not struggling to complete everything.

If you want more of a challenge do vet dungeons and trials, or Harrowstorms. There is actually a thread up right now complaining that Harrowstorms are too hard. This is why it's good that we have content for everyone, because one size doesn't fit all.

starkerealm

deviousthevile wrote: »

It was like Doria or something that started with a D.

Drosha. Bonus points there because she was in a solo-only instance. Gutripper was another showstopper for some players. Those two would, effectively, gate off the Mages and Fighter's Guild quest lines, and both of them were in instances where you couldn't bring friends to help out. Halls of Torment had a similar difficulty spike on the main questline for certain builds, if you hadn't grasped some mechanics (or if the encounter bugged out which, yeah, it did that too.) Finally, Molag Bal was brutal back at launch, and if you cleared him, Silver and Gold were basically, Welcome to Dark Souls, where you'd get smeared by mudcrabs if you weren't on your game.

The biggest issue was that you'd hit Drosha and Gutripper very early on. Possibly within your first hour. I'm not sure how many people those two drove from the game, but I'd be surprised if it was a trivial number.

Smitch_59

Wow, I didn't read all 24 pages of this topic. Still lots of good points being made by both side.

Just my 2 cents: I personally think overland is easy but that's okay with me. The main thing I do in overland these days is farm nodes, fetch surveys, dig treasure maps and more recently, dig antiquities. When I'm in that mode, I don't want overland mobs to bother me; I just want to farm my stuff and be on my way. If I'm in the mood for a fight, there are plenty of options for me aside from overland mobs.

On the other hand, I'm probably in the minority when I say that I rather miss the pre-One Tamriel days. I still remember taking my first character, probably around level 10, along the road from Stonefalls into the Rift. I got smacked down real fast by those level 40 skeletons. And doing Cadwell's Silver and Gold on my first character was a challenge as well, because I was still a long way from max CP. Overland could be challenging back then. But perhaps I'm looking at the past through rose-colored glasses of nostalgia. When I ponder it further, I really wouldn't want to go back to those days.

newtinmpls

deviousthevile wrote: »

It was like Doria or something that started with a D.

starkerealm wrote: »

Drosha. Bonus points there because she was in a solo-only instance. Gutripper was another showstopper for some players. Those two would, effectively, gate off the Mages and Fighter's Guild quest lines, and both of them were in instances where you couldn't bring friends to help out. Halls of Torment had a similar difficulty spike on the main questline for certain builds, if you hadn't grasped some mechanics (or if the encounter bugged out which, yeah, it did that too.) Finally, Molag Bal was brutal back at launch, and if you cleared him, Silver and Gold were basically, Welcome to Dark Souls, where you'd get smeared by mudcrabs if you weren't on your game.

The biggest issue was that you'd hit Drosha and Gutripper very early on. Possibly within your first hour. I'm not sure how many people those two drove from the game, but I'd be surprised if it was a trivial number.

I have spent a lot of time over the past week watching a streamer who is starting ESO for the very first time.

No guild.

No ESO+

Mismatched drops for weapons, no sets, no crafting, playing alone with the support of various stream-watchers.

He is really struggling with a lot of things that are so "easy" for me now.

Speaking to the "showstopper" instances.....I can recall that at the point in the main questline where you are supposed to get Flesh Atronauch parts - had me blocked. That fight with the gargoyle....I couldn't survive it.

Over and over and over.

I didn't know how to kite. I didn't know how to stack my abilities to buff myself. I didn't have potions other than dropped ones (this was before the daily rewards).

Oh sure it's easy now, but for that same streamer - man it's gonna be a struggle.

volkeswagon

Cause if they made it harder they'd lose half its player base. There's plenty of hard content designed just for you. Until they decide to have two servers with varying difficulty then you’ll have to make due with vet content or trying to solo dragons and Harrowstorms. This game isn't all about being tough anyway. That's not its purpose. They threw you guys a bone when they made vet mode and the no death and speed challenges. You can't have your Sweetroll and eat it too.

dazee

This is literally what one of my guildies sa]id. He was complaining that he couldn't kill anyone in PvP with his PvE toon.

You can if your PVE toon is very high burst dps. The reason it wouldn't be ideal for pvp is if it happened to get hit first it'd be finished, but the very high dps characters can kill you before you can react at times, PVE nonwithstanding.

Power creep is real, and this is exactly why nerfs are essential for game balance. Otherwise you just keep inflating the numbers.

No you do not nerf people after selling them expansions and power creep that is dishonest bait and switch business practice and loses customers in huge droves.

Calling for nerfs, especially from ZOS is an incredibly self destructive, generally destructive, and just WHY dumb idea. as someone's signature pointed out, its the same as asking the Death Star for close air support from the Superlaser.

starkerealm

newtinmpls wrote: »

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deviousthevile wrote: »

It was like Doria or something that started with a D.

show previous quotes

starkerealm wrote: »

Drosha. Bonus points there because she was in a solo-only instance. Gutripper was another showstopper for some players. Those two would, effectively, gate off the Mages and Fighter's Guild quest lines, and both of them were in instances where you couldn't bring friends to help out. Halls of Torment had a similar difficulty spike on the main questline for certain builds, if you hadn't grasped some mechanics (or if the encounter bugged out which, yeah, it did that too.) Finally, Molag Bal was brutal back at launch, and if you cleared him, Silver and Gold were basically, Welcome to Dark Souls, where you'd get smeared by mudcrabs if you weren't on your game.

The biggest issue was that you'd hit Drosha and Gutripper very early on. Possibly within your first hour. I'm not sure how many people those two drove from the game, but I'd be surprised if it was a trivial number.

I have spent a lot of time over the past week watching a streamer who is starting ESO for the very first time.

No guild.

No ESO+

Mismatched drops for weapons, no sets, no crafting, playing alone with the support of various stream-watchers.

He is really struggling with a lot of things that are so "easy" for me now.

Speaking to the "showstopper" instances.....I can recall that at the point in the main questline where you are supposed to get Flesh Atronauch parts - had me blocked. That fight with the gargoyle....I couldn't survive it.

Over and over and over.

I didn't know how to kite. I didn't know how to stack my abilities to buff myself. I didn't have potions other than dropped ones (this was before the daily rewards).

Oh sure it's easy now, but for that same streamer - man it's gonna be a struggle.

Yeah, that gargoyle fight was infamous back in the day. I can't remember if it gave me trouble, if I over leveled it, or if I lucked out originally, but I do remember it was still a stumbling block for one of my alts. Ironically, this was far enough back that a lot of the considerations we'd take for granted now simply didn't exist yet. There were no good guides out there. I'm pretty sure the two leading theory crafters were Deltia and Sypher.

Yeah, it was a different era.

No shame for that fight messing you up, it was brutal.

Magdalina

Tandor wrote: »

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Adonexus wrote: »

I had the same thoughts as I lvled. But I figured I might as well enjoy the story

That is, after all, the heart of the game. People who find the game too easy are often those same people who find quests boring. They're playing the wrong type of game.

It's more of the other way for a lot of us I think. I love questing, I love the stories, I really like some of the NPCs and all the little details in their stories/environment, I listen to the dialogue, I read all the books/notes I can find, BUT...

The fighting ('fighting' even) is what breaks it. It's boring and, more than anything, immersion-breaking. Instead of exciting fight, monsters and even bosses are just an annoying distraction that dies as soon as you look in their direction. How can I be immersed in the story where an NPC desperately asks for my help against an abhorrent monster that ate all of his village and shred to pieces the king's militia that came to help, I run out expecting the monster, kill something in my way in 3 light attacks, look around for the big bad monster...and apparently I'd just killed it. With 3 light attacks. Without even noticing what it looks/sounds like or if it has any mechanics (some of them actually have really neat mechanics but in order to see them you gotta basically stand there not even sneezing in their direction so they actually live to use them). And the NPC is praising me for being so OP but it just feels... fake now.

I know that most my 'hardcore' friends don't quest (much) anymore because of this - it's boring and unimmersive:/