PTS Update 26 - Feedback Thread for Vampire & Werewolf

HackTheMinotaur

After testing more builds I was hoping to run Blood for Blood (Eviscerate morph that costs health) on a stamina build. Imagine this skill on a stam sorc also running crit surge? This could be extremely fun and unique in terms of build potential BUT the skill only scales with Max magicka and spell damage!

Why is this? On the flip side, the Blood Frenzy buff gives you spell damage AND weapon damage, so clearly there was some thought about having the Vampire skills support stamina builds. Please take it a step further and make Blood For Blood scale with highest resource!

That is all, thank you 🦇😎🦇

Noxavian

Oathunbound wrote: »

Vampire

1.If you played with a copied character, did your existing skill line XP progress transfer properly?
Sort of, i was able to fully convert elusive mist. i was also able to morph the ult and eviscerate but their morphs were still level 1

2.Did you enjoy the questline/tutorial? Did you find it sufficiently taught you how to use the abilities?
Was on a transfer character ans was unable to test this

3.Did you find the justice gameplay fun and intuitive?
Sort of. It feels kinda half completed, yes i can't user certain skills in game because they would out me as a vamp, yet merchants and service providers recognize me as a vamp and will not deal with me, yet guards don't seem to notice at all. It feels patchwork in its current state but i like the concept.

4.Do you feel the idea of being a vampire feels reinforced in the game world?
again sort of. The need to feed for power is there buuuuut that's it. again the interactions thing is just kinda blah even with the "workaround" it just seems kinda meh.

5.Does the skill line feel up to date with the current modern game?
In a way yet, it went from passives only to actively using vamp skills to utilize it properly/full extent. Also the need to feed to maintain power coupled with npc interactions makes you feel like a vampire rather then just forgetting about it .

6.Does the skill line fit into your current build and feel useful? Do you primarily play as a Tank, Healer or DPS?
For the most part yes. As a magblade dps I can work in vampires skills into my build/rotation and change the way i play, however there are 2 drawbacks that feel a tad overdone. 1 is the cost increase at the lowest level of vampire, and the second is the 100% health regen at level 4 vampire. The first makes it hard to in essence "turn off". On live the penalty at low level vampire are minimal enough that you can practically play as a "mortal" again, but with the passive cost increase it makes it almost worth just staying at the level vamp you want to use and staying vamp, keep stages 2-4 the same cost increase and just remove the cost increase at stage 0, possibly increase the other penalty's slightly to compensate? On the second note it feels weird that regen is 0. I see why you did that as it would make it easier to sustain either the hp cost of the spammable or the frenzy skill but it feels strange that a powerful creature has no regenerative capability outside of stealing life fore from others. Perhaps a 95 percent reduction or something around that degree? otherwise i feel hollow and brittle rather then a powerful vampire.

7.Does the new direction feel faithful to the lore?
In all ways other then the transformation. I like the concept of the transformation but id rather see it as a temporary ascension then a transformation. I don't like the look personally and it feels like a big xivkin rather then a vampiric creature. Id rather the "transformation" fully envelop your character in shadows and give them piercing red eyes and you fully embrace your scion powers. But again this is more of a personal opinion but i just don't like the transformation as is, I don't mind if it was an ascension thing but a transformation makes it feel like too much of a vampire lord and not a blood scion

8.How does feeding feel overall?
I really like the animations but i would prefer an option to feed at close range as well and have it trigger the physical bite animations, but as others have pointed out blade of woe overrides feed at close range, if there was a way to separate the key binds or to suppress blade of woe in the menu somehow it would allow us that option.


Overall i like the direction you have taken with vampire. I was in the camp at first to the drawbacks being far too harsh but they seem to be in a ok spot atm, need some tweaking here and there but the drawbacks work as long as you plan to use the vampire skills. But again in my above mention, the cost increase at stage 0 is the main thing it needs adjusted. Werewolf can easily "abandon" werewolf and play there class with the only drawback being that, their skill points aren't being utilized and they take some more damage from fighter guild skills, and that only apply to pvp. While vampires suffer the same+cost increase, seems a tad much since the only passive active is the sneak one, 5% cost increase does not seem like a fair trade for faster sneak time and speed.

P.S. would it be possible to change the drain skill to become a viable ranged attack and not a utility skill? i know people are suggesting convert eviscerate into a ranged skill and i don't agree with that, but i see drain still as a niche/useless skill and could be better suited to be a ranged damage skill for vampire.

People aren't asking for eviscerate to be changed into a ranged ability. People are asking for it to have a MORPH that makes it a ranged one and another that keeps it melee. Nobody wants it to be an all out ranged skill. What is wrong with that?

skypantherb14_ESO

Vampire Healer Idea/Feedback.

Currently the Vampire Skill Line seems more Magicka DPS friendly then Magicka healing. After playing around with the line as DPS it seems to do well, but requires change in CP and playstyle.

For Healers, however, it is not worth going beyond level 1, so Feeding, and other Vampire themed Interaction/playstyles are going to be irrelevant (set it and forget it, which is the current status quo) .

However, I think it does not have to stay that way, and would only require minimal changed to the Level 4 Passive.

If a Healer Vampire has a Resto Staff equipped, has points in it, and has Reso Staff (and Class Healing) spells equipped, what if part of the damage you do with the Vampire abilities (which is scaled, down for damage, but up for healing with how many points you have in Resto Staff (or maybe how many Healing spells you have in your other bar)) heals the party? The idea is that the Vampire is siphoning vitality/blood/life from the enemy, and giving it to his party members?

For Tanks, if they have 1h and shield equipped, part of the damage they do goes to giving them an absorb Blood Mist (or something like that)?

With this you do not have to change the ability costs, or the abilities themselves, just the Level 4 passive, and it will reinforce the Feeding/Vampire theme/playstyle. It will also give both Healers and Tanks viable Vampire themed abilities as incentive to staying at level 4 and Feeding, etc...

Erelah

* Do you have any other general feedback?

Vampire
I tested both of the vampire morphs and for the perfect Scion morph it feels as if they made the class worse simply to have a morph to remove the race being unplayable.

I use skins and it was immersion breaking for the NPCs to react to not how my character looked and assumed they were vampires when they were actively hiring it. One vampire was covered completely.

The sprint run invisibility was nice for escaping.

Werewolf

I play a Pack Leader on live, thus most of my wolves have turned into vampires. I see no reason to change this.

Overall

There are some interesting choices, some may be fun I enjoyed my Breton, Necromancer racial and skill in order to lower it. The changes seems to even the playing field between vampire and werewolf. Unforgettably this was lowering the enjoyablity of a vampire rather than making werewolves killing machines.

Maxdevil

I think it would be interesting for werewolf to have their own synergy to howl of despair with a cooldown

Like: Grants a synergy to you or your allies that increases their damage done with Light Attacks.

So howl of despair would be great in solo and group and the other morph won’t be the only one used for solo players

katorga

Aliyavana wrote: »

vampire feed and blade of woe should have an option to prioritize one over the other

This pls. Or just a simple option to disable blade of woe completely.

Oathunbound

Noxavian wrote: »

Oathunbound wrote: »

Vampire

1.If you played with a copied character, did your existing skill line XP progress transfer properly?
Sort of, i was able to fully convert elusive mist. i was also able to morph the ult and eviscerate but their morphs were still level 1

2.Did you enjoy the questline/tutorial? Did you find it sufficiently taught you how to use the abilities?
Was on a transfer character ans was unable to test this

3.Did you find the justice gameplay fun and intuitive?
Sort of. It feels kinda half completed, yes i can't user certain skills in game because they would out me as a vamp, yet merchants and service providers recognize me as a vamp and will not deal with me, yet guards don't seem to notice at all. It feels patchwork in its current state but i like the concept.

4.Do you feel the idea of being a vampire feels reinforced in the game world?
again sort of. The need to feed for power is there buuuuut that's it. again the interactions thing is just kinda blah even with the "workaround" it just seems kinda meh.

5.Does the skill line feel up to date with the current modern game?
In a way yet, it went from passives only to actively using vamp skills to utilize it properly/full extent. Also the need to feed to maintain power coupled with npc interactions makes you feel like a vampire rather then just forgetting about it .

6.Does the skill line fit into your current build and feel useful? Do you primarily play as a Tank, Healer or DPS?
For the most part yes. As a magblade dps I can work in vampires skills into my build/rotation and change the way i play, however there are 2 drawbacks that feel a tad overdone. 1 is the cost increase at the lowest level of vampire, and the second is the 100% health regen at level 4 vampire. The first makes it hard to in essence "turn off". On live the penalty at low level vampire are minimal enough that you can practically play as a "mortal" again, but with the passive cost increase it makes it almost worth just staying at the level vamp you want to use and staying vamp, keep stages 2-4 the same cost increase and just remove the cost increase at stage 0, possibly increase the other penalty's slightly to compensate? On the second note it feels weird that regen is 0. I see why you did that as it would make it easier to sustain either the hp cost of the spammable or the frenzy skill but it feels strange that a powerful creature has no regenerative capability outside of stealing life fore from others. Perhaps a 95 percent reduction or something around that degree? otherwise i feel hollow and brittle rather then a powerful vampire.

7.Does the new direction feel faithful to the lore?
In all ways other then the transformation. I like the concept of the transformation but id rather see it as a temporary ascension then a transformation. I don't like the look personally and it feels like a big xivkin rather then a vampiric creature. Id rather the "transformation" fully envelop your character in shadows and give them piercing red eyes and you fully embrace your scion powers. But again this is more of a personal opinion but i just don't like the transformation as is, I don't mind if it was an ascension thing but a transformation makes it feel like too much of a vampire lord and not a blood scion

8.How does feeding feel overall?
I really like the animations but i would prefer an option to feed at close range as well and have it trigger the physical bite animations, but as others have pointed out blade of woe overrides feed at close range, if there was a way to separate the key binds or to suppress blade of woe in the menu somehow it would allow us that option.


Overall i like the direction you have taken with vampire. I was in the camp at first to the drawbacks being far too harsh but they seem to be in a ok spot atm, need some tweaking here and there but the drawbacks work as long as you plan to use the vampire skills. But again in my above mention, the cost increase at stage 0 is the main thing it needs adjusted. Werewolf can easily "abandon" werewolf and play there class with the only drawback being that, their skill points aren't being utilized and they take some more damage from fighter guild skills, and that only apply to pvp. While vampires suffer the same+cost increase, seems a tad much since the only passive active is the sneak one, 5% cost increase does not seem like a fair trade for faster sneak time and speed.

P.S. would it be possible to change the drain skill to become a viable ranged attack and not a utility skill? i know people are suggesting convert eviscerate into a ranged skill and i don't agree with that, but i see drain still as a niche/useless skill and could be better suited to be a ranged damage skill for vampire.

People aren't asking for eviscerate to be changed into a ranged ability. People are asking for it to have a MORPH that makes it a ranged one and another that keeps it melee. Nobody wants it to be an all out ranged skill. What is wrong with that?

I understand that but vampire already has a ranged skill in drain that in its current form will barely see use. Id rather see that get turned into a decent ranged attack so we have more options overall.

navystylz_ESO

Sahidom wrote: »

Dear ZOS.

The Scion ultimate transformations new forms

The vamp drain was repurposed to be your "oh crap" heal to sustain the health cost of your abilities. I like this, it lets you vamp without having to have a class heal, or some other kind of drain sustain. But it also makes it so that one of our new abilities is taken up by a sustain skill.

Oathunbound

Another thing i thought that would possibly please all while being lore friendly would keep the vamp we have now on live as the basic vamp, but should we choose we can go through the ritual to become a blood sicon and we get the skills and passives from the pts. If im not mistaken we would be regular vamps if infected and after x days become a vampire, but if we show promise lamiea can invite us to participate in the ritual to ascend into a scion, but have it so there is no going back and if you want to go from scion back to basic you need to be cured then reinfected

navystylz_ESO

Noxavian wrote: »

People aren't asking for eviscerate to be changed into a ranged ability. People are asking for it to have a MORPH that makes it a ranged one and another that keeps it melee. Nobody wants it to be an all out ranged skill. What is wrong with that?

Don't agree with either. There are already spammables you can use that aren't vampire specific. I believe the melee aspect of this skill is to force the vampire to get in close to danger. It also allows for it to be low cost etc... maybe the dmg could use a tweak. But I don't think having it at range should be a thing.

Even in the lord vampires aren't this range caster class without using other skills you've learn that aren't vampire. Unless you go into vamp lord form with dawnguard in Skyrim. Drain is pretty much the only semi ranged caster ability they normally get. I don't agree making all skills allowing the vampire to stay at range.

navystylz_ESO

katorga wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

vampire feed and blade of woe should have an option to prioritize one over the other

This pls. Or just a simple option to disable blade of woe completely.

The blade of Woe distance is outside of the feed distance. Blade of Woe shouldn't stop your feed animation at all. Distance might disable it.

YOU /- - - Feed - - -/- - - BoW - -/
There's a threshold where you move from this distance = feed, to getting closer to this distance = blade of woe. While I have had no issues with feeding after understanding this, and realizing some spots don't give you the distance needed to feed, I won't discount there might be bug with people who are Imperial Nightblade vampires.

But if Feeding is like 15-10M away from target (just to use fake numbers) if you are less than 10, you will get blade of woe, even if there is no spae to actually get 15-10, it's just a "well crap, this guy isn't sitting in an opportune spot" thing.

WhyMustItBe

So the new vampire brochure says "considerable damage buffs," "efficient self healing," "risk vs. reward." Sounds great, right?

Well, after several days extensively testing builds on the PTS with various classes both as vampire and non, as full magic, full stam, or hybrid, I am sad to report these statements simply do NOT pan out in actual gameplay and vampire on a whole is a significant net DPS loss vs. mortal characters, while werewolf characters enjoy the same DPS or even a little more.

Sadly the devil is in the details of how these abilities actually work in the real world.

Vampires "buffing their damage considerably" is basically a constant scaling health drain that at Rank 4 and 10 stacks is doing over 2k damage per second to you. The "efficient heal" of drain does not keep pace with this by itself, especially if you are taking ANY damage from other sources. So without specific class abilities to stop and heal or special gearsets that will nerf your damage, this is a constant fear of killing yourself.

To try and heal with drain means you stop doing anything else because it is a channel for 3 seconds, losing DPS, and that 2200 damage per second to your health doesn't stop unless you turn off your damage boost, which then has to build back up to full strength (10 stacks, one per second), so you would basically have to keep doing nothing but draining constantly just to prevent yourself from dying to your own buff. Not really as practical in a real world rotation as it sounds on paper.

The base benefit of the toggle is a roughly 660 spell power boost, maybe a tiny bit more than three gold spell damage enchants on your jewelry. HOWEVER again, this is at Rank 4 with a 20% cost penalty to skills. Even with NB siphoning strikes up 100% of the time, the only way I was able to sustain a rotation was to replace my jewelry with all cost reduction glyphs, so the balance mostly equals out.

Now if you let the damage boost scale to 10 stacks that boost doubles it is true, so you are getting around 1200 spell power total, plus if you block cancel mist form you can eek out another 300 for 6 seconds if you can keep it up in a rotation.

The problems simply outweigh any gains however. The rotation is hectic, clunky, lots of time mist doesn't block cancel, transforming has a roughly 2 second delay on changing into and out of Scion where you completely stop being able to do your rotation, you have to change your gear to compensate for the 20% ability cost penalty which is WAY over the top off the balance map, plus you have no health regen at all and 20% weakness to fire on top of this.

Using Burning Spellweave and Mother's Sorrow with all divines and Shadow Mundus I was able to barely eek out a 28k raw parse (no major fracture debuff on the boss) which was lower than my non-vampire parses on the same class, for a whole lot of hectic juggling and risk of dying and micromanaging cost reduction and keeping buffs up that would otherwise just be passive on my gear and not something I'd think about.

It may be fun for solo and RP as I said. But in real world scenarios there is no way you would survive in PVP with the damage buff up, and the Scion doesn't really do anything interesting other than look cool, so you are really left with mostly WAY over the top downsides (particularly the cost increase on non-vampire skills which is an absolute DEAL BREAKER), for very little if any gain other than that RP reward of being a vampire for the sake of it.

TONS of work and risk for very little if any reward.

The system is in a TERRIBLE place as it currently stands in terms of balance (again mainly due to the 20% normal ability cost increase).

@ZOS_GinaBruno

That doesn't mean people can't still have fun. It just won't be for serious players interested in competitive content.

RavemasterCrow

Vampire

If you played with a copied character, did your existing skill line XP progress transfer properly?

I've got many Vampires, and the 3 I tested all had their skills brought over and their XP so they were still rank 10. So it transferred perfectly. No complaints there.

Did you enjoy the questline/tutorial? Did you find it sufficiently taught you how to use the abilities?

Edited (6 am Mountain time) because I was able to get a bite late late yesterday morning. I went through the tutorial and while I enjoy the voice acting and the fact that you were able to get Lamae to sound pretty much the same as she used to way back when the game launched with little noticeable differences, I think that's great and I love it.

The tutorial actually teaching people how to use some of the skills similar to the tutorial is nice. But it goes by so fast - too fast in my opinion. A single cast of the ability and the enemy automatically dies rather than going through and teaching people more in-depth how to use the abilities.

I also found it very insane that it didn't bother to teach people Blood Frenzy or Mist Form - maybe it was too difficult to work out how to teach someone a self-damaging buff toggle. And Mist Form could have been as simple as having someone doing the heavy attacks in the normal game tutorial where you needed to mist form for the mitigation.

The Blood Scion is probably the most disappointing thing because you literally get to kill 1 out of the 10 enemies in the last area and then the tutorial ends and the enemies despawn.

On top of just being underwhelming as an ultimate.

Great bones, not enough meat and muscle.

Did you find the justice gameplay fun and intuitive?

I feel like if you left it to JUST NPC's that sit around and don't provide a service. Having to run all the way to use a fence or having to buy the Merchant support companions to circumvent the fact that none of the "normal" merchants would talk to me got a little grating after the 10th time I forgot and wasted time trying to empty my inventory.

I get the feeling since you made quest NPC's still interact with you, you realised that if you put that stuff on quest NPC's, people could likely never get any actual playing done.

Other than that, I'm not sure how most of these skills qualify as "Criminal Acts".

I could see drain, because you're literally pulling someone's blood out.

But unless Blood Frenzy is supposed to look a LOT worse than it should in-game, I don't want to have it there in case fat fingering it gets me a bounty for activating a buff.

Similar to mist form. Why even have it be a criminal act when you're literally just mist? Who's out there training these guards to recognize all mists/fogs for being vampiric in nature or not? I'm just a whole lot of confused.

I can understand and accept Scion for being Illegal, turning into a Vampire Lord was illegal in Skyrim as well.

Do you feel the idea of being a vampire feels reinforced in the game world?


I may be in a small minority as someone who RP's *and* tries to do all content in the game, including Veteran Modes. I always] felt like I was reinforced in the game world. Not to mention I'm one of the few people that probably played the game almost exclusively at stage 4 Vampirism even on live client.

Does the skill line feel up to date with the current modern game?

I mean, yes.

In the terms that it looks like it's been updated to be more reflective of current game design. But I think NO, because it feels like you are making an attempt to sort of make Vampire a CLASS rather than a character defining disease. Which -would- work, if it had all the stuff needed for that. Having 3 skill lines that serve to round out a whole theme.

As it is now, it feels like a loose collection of vaguely, barely synergistic skills that only fits the playstyle of 2-3 types of characters.

Does the skill line fit into your current build and feel useful? Do you primarily play as a Tank, Healer or DPS?

I tried it on my Night Blade Tank and 3 different DPS, and I've got to say. I found myself using the same abilities I use on live (Mist and occasionally Drain) and swapped out my Bat Swarm for Scion as the ultimate. And didn't change my build at all. Nothing in this new, updated skill tree really felt compelling enough to try and use outside of my initial testing.

Eviscerate looks like a reskinned Venomous Claw, with less weight behind it. It feels less impactful and non-responsive.

I'm sure Blood Frenzy could find a place in someone's build. But I found that unless you're playing a class with quite a bit of self healing (mostly Necro and Night Blade I found), you're going to wind up hurting yourself far more than you're helping yourself.

Mist is as good as it's ever been, and the blood morph looks great and feels fun. I just think that it's still WAY too slow, and serves more as just an "OH CRAP" 75% damage resistance toggle rather than anything else.

Mesmerize is probably the best new thing to come out of the skill tree. And It looks great, sounds wonderful, and if you're doing solo content, it can actually be quite impactful. But due to its limitation that the targets having to be looking at YOU, it feels like this is either meant for a solo character OR a Tank that needs some sort of big, group CC. As it is now, the ONLY reason I would use it is to get around the Stage 4 stuff with the NPC's.

Scion - oh how I wanted to love Scion. When I saw and heard that we'd be getting Vampire Lords in ESO I was actually quite excited. As other than Werewolf - Vampire Lord was my favorite way to play Skyrim. But instead, we get short-lived - roided up Count Orlock from Nosferatu. The very fact that NPC's get the better looking Vampire Lord models that seem to be better versions of Skyrim's Lords makes my blood boil.

The transformation is so short that it feels like a glorified HP reset for those ickiest of sticky moments. Something to be used reactively/defensively rather than with any other sort of use.

Granted, due to the reduced Vampire costs - I could have it up every fight basically. But that doesn't help the fact it feels and plays like a slightly worse version of Bone Colossus.

Does the new direction feel faithful to the lore?

Not really, it feels like you're having a grab bag/pick and choose of the Vampire's "greatest hits" from TES games. Rather than doing anything that would FEEL right.

If you wanted people to be Vampire Lords, you could have pulled a Skyrim and have Base Vampirism (Lamae Bal's Noxiphilic) and Vampire Lord. And maybe see how many people stick with base Vampirism over becoming a Lord rather than wholesale changing something people have been used to since the launch of the game into something so alien and foreign that you either have to fully embrace it - or largely just leave it where it falls.


How does feeding feel overall?

Probably the single greatest thing you could have done right here. It feels impactful, cinematic, it doesn't get boring (at least in my opinion), and the very fact that you can finally have a way to have feed actually KILL the person you're feeding on rather than just stunning them is great. It's top notch. I always hated having to leave town and find a humanoid NPC to feed off of if I needed to reduce my stages so I wouldn't wind up with a bounty.



In summary - in the humble opinion of this singular person: This change did almost nothing for me.

If you were trying to make people play more into "Being a Vampire" (whatever that means), all you've done is have me stick with the same 3 abilities, stick with being stage 4, and essentially just be getting hit with more negatives than net positives. The very fact I had to change around some of my characters to throw their worst heals on their bars to overcome the annoying nature of 0 health recovery would up being far more frustrating than "immersive". I forgot how Vampires, whom were known for their strength, agility, cunning, and magical prowess, and also their immortal nature literally couldn't heal a twisted ankle unless they had someone to sip on nearby.

The amount of ambient creatures I had to hit with a life stealing ability to recover from fall damage or damage I took in combat is significantly more than I've ever killed on live.

All because I nicked a bit of wonky terrain and lost 10% of my HP that wouldn't be healed any other way.

I think you guys had an excellent IDEA of how you wanted things to be.

And trust me, the exhilaration I got from experiencing the first few Vampire "boss fights" in the quests has shown me that you did.

I just think what you're giving players lacks in style, substance, and just seems to me - like just an overall blanket nerf to make Vampire less "mass appealing" - in the same style of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

WhyMustItBe

RavemasterCrow wrote: »

How does feeding feel overall?

Probably the single greatest thing you could have done right here. It feels impactful, cinematic, it doesn't get boring (at least in my opinion), and the very fact that you can finally have a way to have feed actually KILL the person you're feeding on rather than just stunning them is great. It's top notch. I always hated having to leave town and find a humanoid NPC to feed off of if I needed to reduce my stages so I wouldn't wind up with a bounty.

The problem I have with the new feeding is that they made it so you have to be really far away from your victim for the synergy to show up. Not only is this counter intuitive (let me bite you with my fangs from 40 paces!) but in real-world uses where you want to feed on say a Bosmer in their hut, the environment will often not allow you to get far enough away to actually use it.

I feel this is a quick and dirty attempt to resolve the issue the addon Vampires Woe addresses, which is ZOS needs to add a toggle for Blade of Woe/Feeding so you can choose which one will pop up when approaching NPC's. It is a very simple fix and far better than this current stop-gap which I find incredibly jarring from an immersion standpoint.

RavemasterCrow

The problem I have with the new feeding is that they made it so you have to be really far away from your victim for the synergy to show up. Not only is this counter intuitive (let me bite you with my fangs from 40 paces!) but in real-world uses where you want to feed on say a Bosmer in their hut, the environment will often not allow you to get far enough away to actually use it.

I feel this is a quick and dirty attempt to resolve the issue the addon Vampires Woe addresses, which is ZOS needs to add a toggle for Blade of Woe/Feeding so you can choose which one will pop up when approaching NPC's. It is a very simple fix and far better than this current stop-gap which I find incredibly jarring from an immersion standpoint.

Oh yeah, I can certainly see that, and I hope that gets some tweaking and fixing.

I haven't really experienced that particular downside yet because I tend to be one of those people that knows where the isolated folks in the overworld tend to be. So I don't really go into buildings to nom on people.

If there was one thing I would definitely change if I had the ability to, it would be that feeding provides NO healing. I tested it quite a bit, especially on enemies out in the overworld between combats - and it seems like they decided it shouldn't be able to heal (funny how using drain heals you, but full on drinking all their blood and killing them with feed doesn't).

Was annoyed for quite a while on my Sorcerer until I had to throw Twilight Matriarch on his bar to heal. Didn't want to be spamming my potions outside of combat (granted it's PTS so no skin off my nose for doing it, but it's the principle).

navystylz_ESO

RavemasterCrow wrote: »

I forgot how Vampires, whom were known for their strength, agility, cunning, and magical prowess, and also their immortal nature literally couldn't heal a twisted ankle unless they had someone to sip on nearby.

This. In Skyrim unless you modded with Better Vampires or Sacrosanct you lost your regen for health, magicka and stamina. I remember how much I hated that. At least in ESO you can just drain something to heal if you don't have a self heal. Drain is comat is fine, you can easily have a travel bar set up (people do this already to have their maneuvers) that would allow you to heal fall damage.

Cameron991

RavemasterCrow wrote: »

Vampire

If you played with a copied character, did your existing skill line XP progress transfer properly?

I've got many Vampires, and the 3 I tested all had their skills brought over and their XP so they were still rank 10. So it transferred perfectly. No complaints there.

Did you enjoy the questline/tutorial? Did you find it sufficiently taught you how to use the abilities?

I wasn't able to get a bite, so I haven't tested the new tutorial yet. So, I'll update this if that changes.

Did you find the justice gameplay fun and intuitive?

I feel like if you left it to JUST NPC's that sit around and don't provide a service. Having to run all the way to use a fence or having to buy the Merchant support companions to circumvent the fact that none of the "normal" merchants would talk to me got a little grating after the 10th time I forgot and wasted time trying to empty my inventory.

I get the feeling since you made quest NPC's still interact with you, you realised that if you put that stuff on quest NPC's, people could likely never get any actual playing done.

Other than that, I'm not sure how most of these skills qualify as "Criminal Acts".

I could see drain, because you're literally pulling someone's blood out.

But unless Blood Frenzy is supposed to look a LOT worse than it should in-game, I don't want to have it there in case fat fingering it gets me a bounty for activating a buff.

Similar to mist form. Why even have it be a criminal act when you're literally just mist? Who's out there training these guards to recognize all mists/fogs for being vampiric in nature or not? I'm just a whole lot of confused.

I can understand and accept Scion for being Illegal, turning into a Vampire Lord was illegal in Skyrim as well.

Do you feel the idea of being a vampire feels reinforced in the game world?


I may be in a small minority as someone who RP's *and* tries to do all content in the game, including Veteran Modes. I always] felt like I was reinforced in the game world. Not to mention I'm one of the few people that probably played the game almost exclusively at stage 4 Vampirism even on live client.

Does the skill line feel up to date with the current modern game?

I mean, yes.

In the terms that it looks like it's been updated to be more reflective of current game design. But I think NO, because it feels like you are making an attempt to sort of make Vampire a CLASS rather than a character defining disease. Which -would- work, if it had all the stuff needed for that. Having 3 skill lines that serve to round out a whole theme.

As it is now, it feels like a loose collection of vaguely, barely synergistic skills that only fits the playstyle of 2-3 types of characters.

Does the skill line fit into your current build and feel useful? Do you primarily play as a Tank, Healer or DPS?

I tried it on my Night Blade Tank and 3 different DPS, and I've got to say. I found myself using the same abilities I use on live (Mist and occasionally Drain) and swapped out my Bat Swarm for Scion as the ultimate. And didn't change my build at all. Nothing in this new, updated skill tree really felt compelling enough to try and use outside of my initial testing.

Eviscerate looks like a reskinned Venomous Claw, with less weight behind it. It feels less impactful and non-responsive.

I'm sure Blood Frenzy could find a place in someone's build. But I found that unless you're playing a class with quite a bit of self healing (mostly Necro and Night Blade I found), you're going to wind up hurting yourself far more than you're helping yourself.

Mist is as good as it's ever been, and the blood morph looks great and feels fun. I just think that it's still WAY too slow, and serves more as just an "OH CRAP" 75% damage resistance toggle rather than anything else.

Mesmerize is probably the best new thing to come out of the skill tree. And It looks great, sounds wonderful, and if you're doing solo content, it can actually be quite impactful. But due to its limitation that the targets having to be looking at YOU, it feels like this is either meant for a solo character OR a Tank that needs some sort of big, group CC. As it is now, the ONLY reason I would use it is to get around the Stage 4 stuff with the NPC's.

Scion - oh how I wanted to love Scion. When I saw and heard that we'd be getting Vampire Lords in ESO I was actually quite excited. As other than Werewolf - Vampire Lord was my favorite way to play Skyrim. But instead, we get short-lived - roided up Count Orlock from Nosferatu. The very fact that NPC's get the better looking Vampire Lord models that seem to be better versions of Skyrim's Lords makes my blood boil.

The transformation is so short that it feels like a glorified HP reset for those ickiest of sticky moments. Something to be used reactively/defensively rather than with any other sort of use.

Granted, due to the reduced Vampire costs - I could have it up every fight basically. But that doesn't help the fact it feels and plays like a slightly worse version of Bone Colossus.

Does the new direction feel faithful to the lore?

Not really, it feels like you're having a grab bag/pick and choose of the Vampire's "greatest hits" from TES games. Rather than doing anything that would FEEL right.

If you wanted people to be Vampire Lords, you could have pulled a Skyrim and have Base Vampirism (Lamae Bal's Noxiphilic) and Vampire Lord. And maybe see how many people stick with base Vampirism over becoming a Lord rather than wholesale changing something people have been used to since the launch of the game into something so alien and foreign that you either have to fully embrace it - or largely just leave it where it falls.


How does feeding feel overall?

Probably the single greatest thing you could have done right here. It feels impactful, cinematic, it doesn't get boring (at least in my opinion), and the very fact that you can finally have a way to have feed actually KILL the person you're feeding on rather than just stunning them is great. It's top notch. I always hated having to leave town and find a humanoid NPC to feed off of if I needed to reduce my stages so I wouldn't wind up with a bounty.



In summary - in the humble opinion of this singular person: This change did almost nothing for me.

If you were trying to make people play more into "Being a Vampire" (whatever that means), all you've done is have me stick with the same 3 abilities, stick with being stage 4, and essentially just be getting hit with more negatives than net positives. The very fact I had to change around some of my characters to throw their worst heals on their bars to overcome the annoying nature of 0 health recovery would up being far more frustrating than "immersive". I forgot how Vampires, whom were known for their strength, agility, cunning, and magical prowess, and also their immortal nature literally couldn't heal a twisted ankle unless they had someone to sip on nearby.

The amount of ambient creatures I had to hit with a life stealing ability to recover from fall damage or damage I took in combat is significantly more than I've ever killed on live.

All because I nicked a bit of wonky terrain and lost 10% of my HP that wouldn't be healed any other way.

I think you guys had an excellent IDEA of how you wanted things to be.

And trust me, the exhilaration I got from experiencing the first few Vampire "boss fights" in the quests has shown me that you did.

I just think what you're giving players lacks in style, substance, and just seems to me - like just an overall blanket nerf to make Vampire less "mass appealing" - in the same style of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Trust me I couldn’t agree more! Did you see the vampire video that @Noxavian posted in this thread and some other vampire threads? It shows the NPCs vampire abilities and I believe that’s what our vampire needs to feel more immersed and powerful as a vampire rather than just being a vampire that suffers from all the negatives without any reward. The NPCs Abilities are so awesome! And are exactly what so many if not most vampire player would like implemented for our vampires.

RavemasterCrow

Trust me I couldn’t agree more! Did you see the vampire video that @Noxavian posted in this thread and some other vampire threads? It shows the NPCs vampire abilities and I believe that’s what our vampire needs to feel more immersed and powerful as a vampire rather than just being a vampire that suffers from all the negatives without any reward. The NPCs Abilities are so awesome! And are exactly what so many if not most vampire player would like implemented for our vampires.

I have seen, and every time I see the video or play on the PTS and see Vampires crashing down in a cloud of red smoke and bats. And then fight them? I actually fight them slow to experience their mechanics more than any other thing in game because I think it's so *** awesome and cool for a Vampire.

A rush that knocks people over. Combat Savage Feeding. Boiling blood pool AOE. Bat Swarm AoE. They've got so many cool abilities that have ACTUAL use and can round out the anemic (hehe) skill set being presented.

But we get reskinned venomous claw without a Dot. Damaging DPS buff. And a stun that only works if you're playing solo or as the tank.

Cameron991

RavemasterCrow wrote: »

Trust me I couldn’t agree more! Did you see the vampire video that @Noxavian posted in this thread and some other vampire threads? It shows the NPCs vampire abilities and I believe that’s what our vampire needs to feel more immersed and powerful as a vampire rather than just being a vampire that suffers from all the negatives without any reward. The NPCs Abilities are so awesome! And are exactly what so many if not most vampire player would like implemented for our vampires.

I have seen, and every time I see the video or play on the PTS and see Vampires crashing down in a cloud of red smoke and bats. And then fight them? I actually fight them slow to experience their mechanics more than any other thing in game because I think it's so *** awesome and cool for a Vampire.

A rush that knocks people over. Combat Savage Feeding. Boiling blood pool AOE. Bat Swarm AoE. They've got so many cool abilities that have ACTUAL use and can round out the anemic (hehe) skill set being presented.

But we get reskinned venomous claw without a Dot. Damaging DPS buff. And a stun that only works if you're playing solo or as the tank.

Yeah I know I think those abilities are kind of what we all expected and wanted from the start with vampire! Wouldn’t you agree?

fxeconomisteb17_ESO

Last time I was a vampire was 5 years ago when I was playing the main quest on my crafter sorc.
When I realized what it was doing to me, I gave up on it. 75% health regen was too high a toll, a maintenance was difficult.
Even for Nightblades. I don't like sneaking on people and feeding off them.

From all the characters I made, I kept these years as vampire only the Templar which I abandoned. But it was good to sell vampire bites time to time.

At first I was excited in the vampire changes. Still like the general idea that it doesn't go up in vampire stage as it uses vampire abilities, and I have to pay only 10% health regen and 5% extra fire damage. The cost is ok and I'm fine.
I get to use the abilities.

The drain was very good before the changes. It forces you to take hits for 3 seconds but at least it's a cheap heal. And it used to make 15 ultimate, not 12.

Now the drain is expensive. It's cheaper and more effective than Green Dragon Blood, but it's still expensive and doesn't do any relevant damage. Certainly something that drains vitality out of enemies can't leave them virtually unharmed, right ? It would be interesting to have a variable damage, depending on healing done.

And yes, percentual heals should go straight forward thru Battle Spirit. It has to do what it says it does.

Still, the drain is relatively okay to keep as an emergency heal.

Mist Form is extremely expensive. I like the idea of a toggle, but since it's a toggle. it should have added functionalities.
It should allow casting some spells. It should allow the drain. And it should allow some buffs that do not damage the enemy.
Equilibrium, why not ? Instead of the enemy damaging me I do it myself just to keep it running. Seems okay. It's 5000 hp loss for... less than 3 seconds.

I don't think I have uses for the Mesmerize. Sorc has stun, DK has stun, NB has stun, Psijic Guid has stun, don't remember about the others.

I will not use however Blood Frenzy. It's from the same wicked register as paying with health regen. Not me. Probably others.

Oh, if it would be healing received taxed instead of health regen, that would be interesting. Battle Spirit takes 60% of it anyway. An extra 70% of the remaining 40% ? I don't know. Maybe. Certainly nothing should be completely swallowed, as it is this 100% health regen cost. But I find the idea amusing. Pro players and streamers have totally taken the bait. I'm a noob, I'm a Cancer, I like safety.

But if you wanna keep this way, make it attractive for those paper thin, glass cannon damagers. They don't care about the health anyway. Make it irresistible. 600 spell damage per extra stage. They sold 75% of their health regen for a pesky 10% magicka regen, I tell you it works!

That's my take on the vampire. At least it has some usability compared to before. But certainly underwhelming.

ichsuisme

I liked colorful the animations and everything as far as I know fits the lore.

At the core of this rework though, I liked very few things about the vampire changes. On the live server I had been leveling a vampire but I just cured him. I really did not like the art design of the vampire lord. I did not like the abilities. I did not like the passives. Mist form is still the only vampire skill I would consider using and I did face a nice dilemma choosing a morph for it, gj on that skill; all the other skills and passives fall flat though. The vampire lord ultimate is too close to the necromancer's Goliath ultimate, the vampire has: a better healing effect from all damage done, the same duration, larger aoe, same idea of increased stats, and potentially lower cost. I value the necromancer class identity.

The vampire lord ability shouldn't increase your health, but when you activate it, you should still heal to full. While transformed, your vampire abilities should all gain an additional effect, examples: the drain skill gives minor protection, the mesmerize skill inflicts minor vulnerability, eviscerate should be an execute, mist form pauses the timer of your transformation, etc. Having multiple vampire skills on your bars would really pay off once you transformed which would help players feel like a lord rather than a purple, clunky monstrosity. At the same time, I'd suggest healing for 15% of all your damage done be changed to: 15% of damage done with your vampire skills, further increasing the importance of your vampire skills. Lastly, I think 20 seconds for both the vampire ulti and the goliath is too short. Werewolfs can stay transformed for what, indefinitely? I'd be much happier if the vampire ulti lasted 30 seconds (with mist form pausing the timer as needed) and the Goliath lasting 35 seconds.

XomRhoK

RavemasterCrow wrote: »

How does feeding feel overall?

Probably the single greatest thing you could have done right here. It feels impactful, cinematic, it doesn't get boring (at least in my opinion), and the very fact that you can finally have a way to have feed actually KILL the person you're feeding on rather than just stunning them is great. It's top notch. I always hated having to leave town and find a humanoid NPC to feed off of if I needed to reduce my stages so I wouldn't wind up with a bounty.

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

RavemasterCrow wrote: »

How does feeding feel overall?
Probably the single greatest thing you could have done right here. It feels impactful, cinematic, it doesn't get boring (at least in my opinion), and the very fact that you can finally have a way to have feed actually KILL the person you're feeding on rather than just stunning them is great. It's top notch. I always hated having to leave town and find a humanoid NPC to feed off of if I needed to reduce my stages so I wouldn't wind up with a bounty.

The problem I have with the new feeding is that they made it so you have to be really far away from your victim for the synergy to show up. Not only is this counter intuitive (let me bite you with my fangs from 40 paces!) but in real-world uses where you want to feed on say a Bosmer in their hut, the environment will often not allow you to get far enough away to actually use it.

I feel this is a quick and dirty attempt to resolve the issue the addon Vampires Woe addresses, which is ZOS needs to add a toggle for Blade of Woe/Feeding so you can choose which one will pop up when approaching NPC's. It is a very simple fix and far better than this current stop-gap which I find incredibly jarring from an immersion standpoint.

I personally, don't like the fact that feeding now kills victim, i can't feed not noticeably in town now, i forced to leave blood trail. But in open field, in precombat situations, it feels good, to kill one of the enemies by feeding on him. As compromise i already suggested to allow players to feed on Mesmerized NPCs from the front, in close range, and don't kill victim by this type of feeding. It will solve problems with overlap with Blade of Woe in close range, feeding in cramped rooms and will allow to keep victim alive if you want.

OlumoGarbag

WW ponce AoE damage doesent proc tormentor set. If it would, WWs could play PvE tanks. But without it they are limited to DDs.

TheBinarySurfer

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Vampire and Werewolf changes. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:
@ZOS_GinaBruno

• Werewolf
  • 1 Is your play pattern as a werewolf different with these changes?
  • 2 Do you find playing a werewolf as enjoyable as what’s currently live?
• 3 Do you have any other general feedback?

1 Yes the playstyle is different and improved a bit. Some abilities don to make sense however; such as Carnage preventing you re-pouncing for 5 seconds. Also please fix the cost of the heal; it's massively out of proportion with other healing, and makes no sense with the way it scales.

2 It's better, but as a primarily PvP player it needs to be moved to a 'toggle' IMO, the timer mechanic is very very clunky and frustrating (often bugs also); if not, then at least make it so that being in combat (taking/dealing damage in the last 10s?) full stop halts timer-loss. Again, still haven't addressed the biggest problem; the cost of the heal or the fact it scales off the wrong stat.

3 Yes; please consider buffing the claws of life a little bit (10-20%) if you aren't going to reduce the cost of the self-heal. I have a full sustain build using desert rose, engine guardian etc. and I can still only heal through 1 person's damage. If I drop those sets for *actual* damage or tankiness sets, I have 1-2 heals in the tank then i'm dry. Contrast this with Vigor which I can spam in human form 15+ times back-back with the same sets. Please consider doing one of the following; cut the cost of the heal by a large (33%+) amount, make it run off stamina but add a short duration minor maim to ourselfs by using it (dropping our damage as a penalty temporarily). Also the major berserk buff is just not going to be used in pve or pvp by 90% of WW players given the above; your stats will bear this out once it goes live.

TLDR:
-Please make the heal viable, it isn't right now (cost, scaling, resource type)
-Carnage mechanic needs further work (make it so it applies a portion of remaining dot damage on re-pounce after it's up?)
-Address snares (pvp) / and tanking (pve) as a WW, the former is nightmarish and the later is weak.

PS, Savage Werewolf could use a buff given that bleeds now go through resists like everything else.

TheBinarySurfer

There's something else in my comment above I forgot to say; WW is in no-mans land still, even with these changes from a PvP perspective. You aren't enough of a threat to people and you can't self-heal, so every fight is basically someone either ignoring you and finishing off someone else, or pressuring you until you (<10s) run out of self-sustain and die horribly.

Here's another idea; consider a stacking self-resist buff the longer the WW is in melee combat if you don't want to buff the heal. So for example, you gain say 1k resist per 2 seconds you are hitting something, with stacks dropping if you aren't able to hit something for a short time (2-5 seconds?), capping out at an additional 5-10k resist? That way, if you just let the WW hammer on you, it'll be a nightmare to deal with when you go for it, and would remove the need to chose claws of life to have even a vain hope of self-sustaining vs. damage. @ZOS_ginabruno .

Tommy_The_Gun

So, I had an idea recently and since we have a Patch that affects Werewolves, it is really a simple change that may help a lot.

How about updating WW ultimate tooltip, to indicate clearly that:

"While in Werewolf form, your weapon passive are disabled and you can only use Werewolf skills"

Many people seem to don't know that, and are confused about this - to this very day. Especially if they want to be a Werewolf for the 1st time - they don't know that. The game is not telling it. We know we take more damage from poison damage & Fighters guild (as it is written in a Lycanthrophy active effect) - but there are many things people do not know and are surprised later on.

This is not intuitive & transparent. If it is not written anywhere in game, then people assume otherwise. It is cryptic. This is abnormal as no other things in game do that (disables certain passives).

Chrlynsch

TheBinarySurfer wrote: »

There's something else in my comment above I forgot to say; WW is in no-mans land still, even with these changes from a PvP perspective. You aren't enough of a threat to people and you can't self-heal, so every fight is basically someone either ignoring you and finishing off someone else, or pressuring you until you (<10s) run out of self-sustain and die horribly.

Here's another idea; consider a stacking self-resist buff the longer the WW is in melee combat if you don't want to buff the heal. So for example, you gain say 1k resist per 2 seconds you are hitting something, with stacks dropping if you aren't able to hit something for a short time (2-5 seconds?), capping out at an additional 5-10k resist? That way, if you just let the WW hammer on you, it'll be a nightmare to deal with when you go for it, and would remove the need to chose claws of life to have even a vain hope of self-sustaining vs. damage. @ZOS_ginabruno .

What if werewolf heavy attacks restored both magicka and stamina? *Gasssp*

Narvuntien

Vampire Re-Vamped.

Eviscerate (New Skill)

This new skill is a direct damage melee attack that deals more damage based on your own missing Health.
Slit Throat (Morph 1) – Costs Health Costs Stamina to use and increases the damage bonus based on your own missing Health. (Alternatively scale with highest stat at least)
Arterial Burst (Morph 2) – Will always be a Critical Strike if you use it while under half Health. Increase range to 28 meters

Blood Frenzy (New Skill)

This new skill is a permanent buff that can be toggled off and on outside of the global cooldown. While it is toggled on, you gain a massive bonus to Weapon and Spell Damage, but your Health is drained every second and you cannot be healed by other players.
Simmering Frenzy (Morph 1) – Increases the Weapon and Spell Damage bonus, but also increases the Health cost the longer it remains toggled on.
Sated Fury (Morph 2) – When it is toggled off, you heal for a portion of the Health you spent while it was toggled on.

I like these, It is interesting that in PVE self heals are strong enough but the battle spirit healing nerf makes these worse in PVP

Vampiric Drain (New Skill)

This new skill is a short channeled beam ability, which deals low damage to an enemy but heals you for a significant amount of your missing Health over time.
Vicious Drain (Morph 1) – Restores a portion of your missing Stamina over the channel. Deals significantly more damage It has to at minimum be as much as Flurry/Bloodthirst for a comparison to a similar skill
Exhilarating Drain (Morph 2) – Generates Ultimate over the channel. Restores a portion of your missing Stamina over the channel.

Mesmerize (New Skill)

This new skill is a crowd control ability that affects all enemies in a cone in front of you, stunning them if they are facing your direction.
Hypnosis (Morph 1) – Affects all enemies around you instead of enemies in front of you.
Stupefy (Morph 2) – Enemies are snared after the stun ends.

Blood Scion (New Skill)

This new Ultimate is a transformation skill that turns you into a horrific Vampire monster. Transforming instantly heals you into full Health. While transformed, you have increased Health, Stamina, and Magicka, you heal for a percentage of all damage caused, and you can see enemies through walls.
Swarming Scion (Morph 1) – Bats swarm around you while transformed, dealing damage to enemies that come close.
Perfect Scion (Morph 2) – You ascend to Vampire Stage 5 while transformed, which grants all the benefits of Vampire Stage 4 with none of the drawbacks.

This skill needs a lot longer uptime as a blood scion transformation locks you out of skills for critical seconds and it isn't up long enough to be worth using (in PVE). I feel like having a long transformation animation is also bad in PVP.

TheBinarySurfer

Chrlynsch wrote: »

TheBinarySurfer wrote: »

There's something else in my comment above I forgot to say; WW is in no-mans land still, even with these changes from a PvP perspective. You aren't enough of a threat to people and you can't self-heal, so every fight is basically someone either ignoring you and finishing off someone else, or pressuring you until you (<10s) run out of self-sustain and die horribly.

Here's another idea; consider a stacking self-resist buff the longer the WW is in melee combat if you don't want to buff the heal. So for example, you gain say 1k resist per 2 seconds you are hitting something, with stacks dropping if you aren't able to hit something for a short time (2-5 seconds?), capping out at an additional 5-10k resist? That way, if you just let the WW hammer on you, it'll be a nightmare to deal with when you go for it, and would remove the need to chose claws of life to have even a vain hope of self-sustaining vs. damage. @ZOS_ginabruno .

What if werewolf heavy attacks restored both magicka and stamina? *Gasssp*

Radical

Argonianwerecroc212

Werewolf needs a visual update it looks outdated or add more forms ex: werebear werelion and change color for their morphs.