VMA and VDSA weapons will have perfected versions but your weapon won't be upgraded automatically.

CleymenZero

Elsonso wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Speaking for myself, the issue is not the one stat for min/maxing. It’s the fact they’re telling me all my time and effort on vMA was worth jack s. and only qualified me for normal rewards. They are literally telling me to do the same exact content for the upgraded version and treating me as if I’d never cleared vMA at all.

You did the content, and you got the reward you were looking for. They have not said that your reward is changing, so you still have your reward. It has not changed. It is still the same weapon.

The weapon is not just a weapon. It is a trophy representative of completing certain content on certain difficulty.

I want to point out something, because I think that people forget this. ZOS employees play this game. They have done vMA, and they have received their trophy for completing it. The Creative Director has been doing vMA for years and likely has more than one of these trophies. He just posted another vMA clear last week. In that person, we are talking about someone who has done this work, received the reward, is in the same position as a lot of you, and is actually in a position to influence how ZOS handles these weapons. Yet, here we are.

You may or may not aim to appear serene and compassionate but by trying to do so (or not), you show just how out of touch you are.

Yes, they may play the game but not at the level a lot of us do.

Yes they may be human and there may not be a conspiracy but there is a very influential corporate layer above even them (ZOS != Zenimax).

The bonus to the weapons is almost insignificant so there is no point in not giving it to the ones who already have many weapons. You're already giving away 95%+ of the functionality of the weapon that used to take effort to obtain (at least in terms of time), why not just upgrade the weapons.

You'll say "if the bonus is so insignificant, why complain that you won't obtain it from the get-go?" Well to that I would simply answer that it is because we've met the requirements to obtain the weapons. What do you have to do to obtain the new perfected weapons? Complete vMA. What did I do obtain my dozens of vMA weapons? Complete vMA. I did not farm normal normal MA, I obtained those weapons by farming vMA. Again they're giving away 95% of the functionality of the weapon for completing a trivial activity. It's almost basic decency and common sense to upgrade the weapon.

It's surely not out of malice that this decision was made but it can't be abything else than capriciousness.

There is no reason why they can't recode the current weapons to be perfected and add the "new" non-perfected weapons into the game at least on the technical side of it. I could probably do it myself and I'm only a very tech-savvy healthcare professional who builds computers as a hobby and dabbled into coding for a bit.

So if there are no technical limitations, what other reason would they have to not upgrade the weapons?

This upcoming patch exposes A LOT of questionable choices. Between these new weapons, the perfected asylum staff and many more, I wonder what went into this. As polite as I wish to remain, I have to say that stupid came to mind MANY times when I read the notes.

leepalmer95

Elsonso wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

It's an Id in a data table, just like when they nerfed it, they updated the base item which affected all instances of it.

Elsonso wrote: »

I guess my first question is whether it is even realistic, from the game/server perspective, to upgrade them? Is it even something that they could do, and get it right? I mean, I can see the "no soup for you" coming from them, but there might be more to it than just an arbitrary "no" decision.

Just clone the existing Id for non perfected, update the original to perfected. 5minute job for a grad developer on pittance pay.

The thing is that these people are not stupid, and they are not blind to what players want. If it was simply a matter that a grad student could have done in 5 minutes, then I would expect that they would be doing it. They are not evil, and they are not deliberately mean. If we start to assume that they are doing this for no good reason, or just to be mean, or just because they don't listen, we might as well blame it on 5G cell towers.

Now, I could be wrong. I am not an insider. It just seems implausible that this is just some arbitrary decision to avoid "5 minutes of work".

Just because they cant doesnt mean they will.

Why would they do it when they can force people to redo old content to maake it seem like this dlc is bigger than it is. More playtime for them, better numbers and they don't need to do anything.

Zos never think for player conveniance its always how they can exploit things to make the business look better.

xaraan

code65536 wrote: »

I want to try to cut through the noise a little and look at things from the developers' perspective. Look at where the they are coming from and why they see non-upgrade as the right thing to do. And try to explain why that perspective is so sharply at odds with how players see things.

Floating around various Discords are screenshots of a conversation that @ZOS_RichLambert had with a player who messaged him, in which Rich lays out ZOS's point of view.

How the developers see things...

The developers see Perfected arena weapons as something new. They've changed the sourcing of existing weapons to make them more accessible. And they've added new weapons to the game. And, since these are new things that they're introducing to the game, it makes sense that people have to acquire them from scratch. When a motif is added to a dungeon, you have to re-run that dungeon to get it and aren't retroactively granted copies from previous clears of that dungeon, so why should arena weapons be different?

How the players see things...

Most players don't see the weapons as new. Instead, they see it as a buff to the veteran reward weapons. And that the new thing isn't the Perfected weapon. Instead, the new things are the imperfect weapons that's being added to normal. From the players' perspective, rewards are being added to something that previously had no rewards (normal). It's the normal reward that are new, and existing rewards that are being buffed.

So what exactly is "new" here?

Both perspectives make sense. It all hinges on the question of, What new is being added here? Do we go with the developers' claim that Perfected is new, because Perfected Dragonstar/Maelstrom weapons had never existed before? Or do we go with the players' claim that Perfected is just a buff of existing veteran rewards and that non-Perfected is new, since normal had never granted weapons before?*

If people agree that Perfected weapons are "new", then the developers' perspective makes complete sense. If people agree that Perfected weapons are just a buff of existing weapons and that non-Perfected weapons are the truly "new" thing, then the developers' perspective falls apart.

Historical perspective: Master's weapons in 2016

I think the best analogue would be DSA's Master's weapons. In 2016, the Master's weapons that you'd get from DSA were VR14, back when the max player level was VR16. In the latter half of 2016, they introduced max-level Master's weapons. Everyone's existing VR14 weapons remained unchanged. If you wanted the new max-level Master's weapons, you had to run vDSA all over again and reacquire them all from scratch. And nobody batted an eye at this. Nobody complained about having to reacquire their weapons.

And I imagine the folks at ZOS are thinking right now, "This is no different than adding max-level Master's weapons in 2016, why the hell are players going crazy over this?!"

But there is one very important difference here: The addition of max-level Master's weapons coincided with the rescaling of Dragonstar Arena. DSA was no longer VR14 content, it was now max-level content, with a significant difficulty buff. You could no longer blow through vDSA with no support characters--you had to actually bring a tank and a healer. The incoming damage was increased significantly. The enemy health levels were buffed substantially. Portals granted damage immunity and you could no longer kill enemies before they even appeared out of the portal. The new max-level vDSA was a proper, difficult challenge.

It may have been the same content, but it was a new experience.

And I think the argument here for why the developers missed the mark is that their supposedly "new" arena gear does not require new experiences.

When you get new gear, it's associated with new content. There are, for example, new dungeon sets... that require running a new dungeon. Or, in the example that I just gave above, a new experience could be old content that had gotten a facelift.

Why the players are right

The main problem with the developers' perspective is that the means of acquisition is identical. It's hard to convince a player that something is "new" when the conditions of that reward are identical. Unlike the developers, players don't see this as Perfected vs. Imperfect. They see it as Veteran-difficulty-reward vs. Normal-difficulty-reward. ZOS thinks they added a new reward. Players think that ZOS is buffing an existing reward, but not buffing it retroactively.

As I've said in an earlier post, if ZOS changes the means of acquisition--either by buffing vMA or adding additional requirements (e.g., requiring a single-session clear; after all, Perfected Asylum weapons are rewarded not for simple vAS clears, but for vAS +2 clears, though that's looking increasingly like an aberrant outlier)--then what they suggest probably wouldn't have raised players' hackles nearly as much. But not when the requirements for acquisition are identical.

Point of comparison: Gear cap increases

As I had already mentioned with the 2016 Master's weapon buff, the closest analogue to ZOS's line of thinking are gear cap increases. As expected in ESO (and any other MMO), if the gear cap increases, existing gear doesn't get upgraded. You have to reacquire it.

And this fits with what @ZOS_RichLambert had been arguing: When gear cap increases, existing gear doesn't get nerfed. It just doesn't get the extra power that's being added. (Though to argue that existing gear doesn't lose power in absolute terms is a disingenuous argument despite being technically correct, because it's losing power in relative terms, and that's what matters in the long run.)

As I had already argued earlier, the main problem with comparing Perfected weapons to gear cap increases is that gear cap increases are associated with difficulty rescaling. When ESO introduced VR15/16 gear, it required that we defeat VR15/16 enemies that were tougher than older VR14 enemies. When DSA weapons were upgraded from VR14 to CP160, it required beating a DSA that had received a substantial buff to difficulty.

The second problem with comparing Perfected weapons to gear cap increases is that gear cap increases are extremely unpopular. Time and again, when players have discussed the potential of gear cap increases, the response has been overwhelmingly negative. People really don't like the idea of having to arbitrarily re-earn things.

So even if you could compare Perfected weapons to a gear cap increase (despite the lack of any "new experiences"), it's still not a very flattering comparison because gear cap increases are so widely reviled.

Point of comparison: Adding new drops to a dungeon

As I alluded to earlier, if extra rewards get added to a dungeon after its release--e.g., motifs--people don't clamor for making this rewards retroactive for previous clears. So... how's this different?

It's different because in the case of motifs, you go from nothing-is-dropping to something-is-dropping. With arena weapons, you already have a reward dropping in vet. It's not a new reward--it's a different reward. Or, as the players see it, it's the same reward with buffs. If we continue with this comparison, it's actually the normal modes that are seeing something new that hadn't existed before. Which fits in with the general player perspective that the vet rewards are buffed and that the actual new rewards are the normal weapons.

So... what's the point of this post?

I guess my target audience for this post is @ZOS_RichLambert and other devs, and my hope is that I'm able to convey the players' perspective, why it differs from the developers' perspective and why, if you are to pick between the two, the players' perspective makes more sense and why the developers' perspective, while reasonable, does not pass the muster.

I want this to be about convincing the devs to see things as we see them, without the anger and outrage that we see in 90% of the other posts here.

One last thing: Why this has touched a nerve with players

While this post is mostly to lay out why I think the developer perspective misses the mark, I also want to touch on why there's been so much anger in this thread (though this is irrelevant to the point that I want to make).

The first is the RNG of acquiring weapons. While it's possible to get extremely lucky (one of my alt accounts got an infused Inferno on its first and only run of vMA), there are just as many stories about people who aren't lucky. I know someone who has just two inferno staves, and at least 60 ice staves (they stopped keeping track after 60). I know people who have farmed vMA literally hundreds of times to get their gear. Too many people have been burned by the RNG for there to be anything other than anger at the suggestion that they would have to endure that all over again.

I've run vMA somewhere between 200 and 300 times, and I kinda enjoy it, but I'm able to enjoy it only because I already have my weapons and don't have this question of gear drops hanging over me when I run it. The very idea of having to battle the potentially brutal drop roulette all over again really saps the fun out of it, because the arena should be about battling the enemies in the arena, not the RNG drops, but that RNG is what often dominates the experience. I think that the RNG loot has made these weapons more precious to players than the devs had intended, hence the strong reactions.

The second is the extremely strong player perception of disrespect coming from ZOS. Update 25 has been terrible. Performance has never been this bad, trials groups are cancelling runs or rescheduling them for weird hours, and I haven't seen morale this low in years. Yet there's been virtually no communication from ZOS about this important matter. All we have are vague reassurances about ongoing investigations. For many people, this arena weapon issue is yet another sign of disrespect coming from a company that had already expended the last of their goodwill with these game-breaking issues in Update 25.

Please do the right thing, Rich.




* Nitpicker's corner: Yes, I know that's not quite true, since back when DSA was still VR14 content, normal DSA dropped VR13 Master's weapons.

[snip]

And the fact they've looped in a lot of the stream team to echo their message even though some disagree privately tells me it's nothing but spin.

If I run vMA today, I should not get a better version of the drop in two months.
I ran vMA to get a vMA drop, not to get a nMA drop. So it's making me farm the same content for the same level of reward.
And the game does not occur in a vacuum, so the whole "your weapon is still the same" argument doesn't work. If a new player runs the exact same content as me just two months later, I am now behind them in build. Even if it only equates to .1dps (all other things being equal of course in the build and performance). Is it the end of the world? No, but it is insulting IMO for them to put players in this position, essentially making their hard work mean nothing.

They are trying to make people re-farm the same content even when they know it's hated far more than enjoyed in the community just because the game lead thinks the content is fun. I do not want to re-run this content over and over and over and over again for the same level of rewards I already suffered through it for. So in my view, they are not only putting people in a position to re-farm content they already farmed for the same level of reward, but they are making people re-farm content they don't enjoy and didn't want to farm to begin with (by-and-large) just to re-earn those drops.

Why do some feel like we 'have' to run it: one of the things I enjoy in the game is building my character with the best gear, so even if it's a .1% improvement I've golded jewelry out for example, which isn't sometimes worth it (esp for some sets). But feeling like I am leaving something on the table in my build, even if it's a tiny amount, does make me feel like it's something that HAS to be done. Trying to accomplish that with the existing game is the fun part: new content, new options, more gear to figure out and balance and earn, etc. But feeling like they are just coming in and taking an accomplishment away to make you re-accomplish it does not create that enjoyment. Makes you feel instead like, why bother, they will just screw me again later. And I don't think we should be making players feel like "why bother." And if you care about the health of the game then no player would revel in others feeling that way even if they didn't themselves.

And I'm all for nMA dropping a non-perfect weapon. Requested it years ago when they first started adding perfected items to the game. That did not mean all existing weapons earned from vMA are now turned into nMA weapons that takes a lot less work to clear.

It's a vMA drop, end of story. Is my vMA drop going to be equal to a vMA drop post patch? If the answer is no, then you are screwing me over. Telling me it's just screws me a little bit doesn't change the feeling of "wow, this company doesn't value the work we put in to earn the things we earn." And combining it with putting me in a position of now having the same reward as someone doing a much much much easier version of the run earns if I do not re-farm it makes that feeling of disrespect even greater. Nor should someone running vMA the first time a month later than me get a better version of what previous people earned. There is no justification for this IMO.

If it's not a big deal, then they should just take care of their players. (You know not a single person that has vMA on farm will have trouble re-earning them, so there is literally no reason or achievement in making them re-run it constantly except to be petty). If it is a big deal, then they should not be doing it to their players to begin with.

[edited for bashing comment]

xaraan

Just to take this in a different direction instead of what they shouldn't do, want to bring up what I think they should do.

If they want to make the content more appealing to re-farm and don't have the resources to actually change or re-do the arenas, they can add some other rewards to obtain.

If they added Tokens to the vet version, that would encourage people to run it again. Even if all the weapons I had were upgraded to perfected, I'd still want to earn some tokens. That would help with inventory management as I could decon a bunch of the items I'm saving in case they prove useful one day and I could just save my tokens for that time instead.

They could also add some new/different drop sets to the arenas or improve the existing sets as I doubt tons of players have saved them b/c of the amount of room entire 5pc's would take up vs. extra MA weapons.

And they could add undaunted plunder to the end or even drop some at the end and half way through.

reiverx

They're not going to change their stance on this. I remember a similar thing happened when they introduced jewelry crafting. I've still got a bunch of old rings that can't be deconstructed.

Having people go through 4 year old content to get items they've already spent a lot of time farming, well it's just chronic.

xaraan

It's possible reiverx they won't.

But I think it's worth people making it known how they feel and how strongly those feelings are.

I just don't see any good reason for them to do it. As in, not from a player perspective, but from a management perspective, I don't see any logical reason to treat this many of your customers like this. Just can't wrap my head around it.

mairwen85

xaraan wrote: »

It's possible reiverx they won't.

But I think it's worth people making it known how they feel and how strongly those feelings are.

I just don't see any good reason for them to do it. As in, not from a player perspective, but from a management perspective, I don't see any logical reason to treat this many of your customers like this. Just can't wrap my head around it.

I agree. It won't likely come to much, so avidly protesting it is pointless, but at least making our voices heard might influence future decisions, and at the very least provides a very real marker for customer (dis)satisfaction at this idea.

silvereyes

reiverx wrote: »

They're not going to change their stance on this. I remember a similar thing happened when they introduced jewelry crafting. I've still got a bunch of old rings that can't be deconstructed.

Not really the same at all. JC was a brand new system. There was a really good reason for the health of the game to not allow JC decon at the time. They didn't want speculators hoarding jewels before the patch and then flooding the market with deconned mats on day one. I was perfectly fine with that decision.

MLGProPlayer

khajiitNPC wrote: »

Oh well — I’m fine with running vet content again, it might take a while but, I mean this is an MMO. Stuff gets nerfed, buffed, nerfed again. I just want a working Cyrodiil.

Name one successful MMO that makes you re-farm content you've already farmed.

reiverx

silvereyes wrote: »

reiverx wrote: »

They're not going to change their stance on this. I remember a similar thing happened when they introduced jewelry crafting. I've still got a bunch of old rings that can't be deconstructed.

Not really the same at all. JC was a brand new system. There was a really good reason for the health of the game to not allow JC decon at the time. They didn't want speculators hoarding jewels before the patch and then flooding the market with deconned mats on day one. I was perfectly fine with that decision.

Given the huge limitations of bank space, there's only so many jewels you can hoard. And you don't really get that much back from deconstruction. I guess it doesn't matter now though. It's water under the bridge at this stage.

I've got around 20 or so VMA weapons. I don't have the energy to farm it all over again so I'll go without the upgrade. I've long accepted the fact that everything ZOS gives us comes with some kind of negative penalty.

K1NGPALM3R1

I grinded for months to get the 3 weapons I needed, at least 6 months once a week. Pathetic to farm again. Is this solely due the fact some people are unable to complete the content? I did VMa around 300cp it’s not the gear you wear it’s the practice you put in to get the completion. I see why so many people have left the game

xaraan

I don't even think it's because people can't farm the content K1NG, I mean most of us haven't said we have any problem with them adding MA weapons to normal MA.

Most people are just upset because they ran vMA to get vMA weapons and now they will have nMA weapons and have to re-run vMA to get vMA weapons.

I don't care that they offer a non-perfected version to easier content for people that can't or don't want to run the vet content. But those of us that did not care to run it over and over and over again before the patch did and don't deserve to be told to do it all over again just because they don't care about screwing over end game players.

And it doesn't matter if 'we still have the same weapon after the patch as now'. It's still a nMA drop. The game doesn't occur in a vacuum. So you have done the same content for the same drop as someone doing vMA in June yet somehow you are behind them in gear progression. And someone doing extremely easy version of the content in June will now have equal gear progression to you. I see a pretty big change in my vMA drop there. There is no difference in the arguments in favor of screwing us over that wouldn't also apply to a gear cap increase to CP180. Yet the same people I've seen go off about that possibility seem to turn a blind eye to understanding this b/c it effects a smaller portion of the community.

One of the positives ESO has vs some other MMOs is that the gear grind is about new content and new gear, not re-earning the same gear over and over. So seeing that change, even if it's just an arena and not all gear with a gear cap raise is very disheartening.

I guess from a management standpoint I don't see any reason to take the wind out of so many players sails about the game going into a major patch. I guess the thinking could be: better to do it now with a big population increase coming so no one notices, but I'd rather see the population in the game grow and not just get shuffled around. But I also think there are other things to be said about not having people go into the patch feeling screwed over, even if they stay, they might be more into the game, spend more money on it, talk more people into checking it out or coming back, etc. Sure, sometimes you'll have to make a tough call that players don't like, but those should be last resort calls where you have no other choice. They have a choice in this case.

Tsar_Gekkou

Are we positive that the spell pen from the [snip] vMA staff doesn't carry across both bars like the light attack damage?

[edited for profanity]

SpiderCultist

this is beyond stupid, i'm out

AndyMac

I'm likely in the tiny minority here, but I really like vMA as content so I'm happy to have a reason to get back in there and run it.

Whether or not I'll feel that way after 200 runs and no fire staff..eh, idk

xaraan

AndyMac wrote: »

I'm likely in the tiny minority here, but I really like vMA as content so I'm happy to have a reason to get back in there and run it.

Whether or not I'll feel that way after 200 runs and no fire staff..eh, idk

I'd rather they add new reasons to go back.

Some different 5 pc sets that are worthwhile. Undaunted plunder. Tokens, etc.

Not just to re-earn more vMA drops.

RaunHunter

My girlfriend and I farmed vMA weapons just last month. She was lucky; got her precise inferno staff in her second completion. Me? Not so lucky. I had to run it at least a couple dozen times to get my bow... which was powered. So, I had to grind more to get transmute crystals and transmute it to a non-trash trait. Then upgraded it to gold. Now, you are telling me I could have had it in less than quarter the time I spent, had I just waited a couple months? Really ZOS?! You have got to be kidding me, right?


When I thought about why ZoS would do this, I couldn't help but wonder how many people must have actually completed vMA. Let's assume (generously) about 20% of the player base actually completed it for the weapon.

The 20% - These are the people who are dedicated to getting the BiS gear. ZoS knows we'll moan and groan, but if we really want the gear, we'll put in the effort and grind for it. So, by making this decision, they are forcing a good chunk of this population back to vMA.

The 80% - These are the people who probably did nMA once for the story, tried vMA, found it too difficult and never returned. By making the BiS gear available to them in nMA, a lot of them are going to be grinding the arena as well.

So, in their eyes, this is a win-win. People are going to be playing a largely neglected part of their game, and they didn't have to do much work for it. Even in the worst case scenario where the 20% who had done it already don't return to it (which won't happen if vMA weapons continue to be BiS), they still get the 80% to Orsinium. This is purely a business decision, and a nasty exploitative one at that.


And to all those white-knights who come here to tell me I shouldn't assume such a thing, I say this: ZoS has not explained themselves. They have just stated their decision without giving a reason; a decision that is highly controversial, and to put it bluntly, one that doesn't make any sense. So, they have allowed us to wonder. And with the trend of changes I've been seeing, I can't help but assume the worst. If they don't want us to assume, they should communicate more effectively.

Elsonso

.

RaunHunter wrote: »

When I thought about why ZoS would do this, I couldn't help but wonder how many people must have actually completed vMA. Let's assume (generously) about 20% of the player base actually completed it for the weapon.

My thinking is that the percentage of all players is probably single digits, closer to 1% than 10%. It would certainly be an interesting number for ZOS to reveal.

MattT1988

Elsonso wrote: »

.

RaunHunter wrote: »

When I thought about why ZoS would do this, I couldn't help but wonder how many people must have actually completed vMA. Let's assume (generously) about 20% of the player base actually completed it for the weapon.

My thinking is that the percentage of all players is probably single digits, closer to 1% than 10%. It would certainly be an interesting number for ZOS to reveal.

I highly doubt it’s that low.

Elsonso

MattT1988 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

.

RaunHunter wrote: »

When I thought about why ZoS would do this, I couldn't help but wonder how many people must have actually completed vMA. Let's assume (generously) about 20% of the player base actually completed it for the weapon.

My thinking is that the percentage of all players is probably single digits, closer to 1% than 10%. It would certainly be an interesting number for ZOS to reveal.

I highly doubt it’s that low.

Probably not among the players that frequent the forum, no. Still, it would be an interesting number to hear.

RaunHunter

Elsonso wrote: »

.

RaunHunter wrote: »

When I thought about why ZoS would do this, I couldn't help but wonder how many people must have actually completed vMA. Let's assume (generously) about 20% of the player base actually completed it for the weapon.

My thinking is that the percentage of all players is probably single digits, closer to 1% than 10%. It would certainly be an interesting number for ZOS to reveal.

The actual number does not really matter, IMO. The point is, those who are serious about their gear and challenging content are severely outnumbered by those who are not.

I have also noticed that Crown store cosmetics, housing, and furnishing don't tend to interest those who do the harder content, generally. So, these people--who are the minority--pay for ESO+ and buy chapters. Meanwhile, the people who are happy doing the easy content and also are interested in the cosmetics, etc., are the majority. These people pay for ESO+, buy chapters, AND potentially buy Crowns for their miscellaneous purchases.

Now, keeping in mind the fact that it is a business, who do you think they will try to cater? The minority who don't bring in as much money and are much harder to please? Or the majority who are easier to please with a much higher potential for profit?

They disrespect the hard work we put in because they can afford to. We are not their targeted, valued player base. It is as simple as that.

I assure you, this is just a start. At this rate, U27 will read as such: Imperfect monster helmets now available through normal dungeon runs. All previously obtained monster helmets will be downgraded to imperfect. Grind all the dungeons again in Vet for the perfect ones.

BreakaerB

RaunHunter wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

.

RaunHunter wrote: »

When I thought about why ZoS would do this, I couldn't help but wonder how many people must have actually completed vMA. Let's assume (generously) about 20% of the player base actually completed it for the weapon.

My thinking is that the percentage of all players is probably single digits, closer to 1% than 10%. It would certainly be an interesting number for ZOS to reveal.

The actual number does not really matter, IMO. The point is, those who are serious about their gear and challenging content are severely outnumbered by those who are not.

I have also noticed that Crown store cosmetics, housing, and furnishing don't tend to interest those who do the harder content, generally. So, these people--who are the minority--pay for ESO+ and buy chapters. Meanwhile, the people who are happy doing the easy content and also are interested in the cosmetics, etc., are the majority. These people pay for ESO+, buy chapters, AND potentially buy Crowns for their miscellaneous purchases.

Now, keeping in mind the fact that it is a business, who do you think they will try to cater? The minority who don't bring in as much money and are much harder to please? Or the majority who are easier to please with a much higher potential for profit?

They disrespect the hard work we put in because they can afford to. We are not their targeted, valued player base. It is as simple as that.

I assure you, this is just a start. At this rate, U27 will read as such: Imperfect monster helmets now available through normal dungeon runs. All previously obtained monster helmets will be downgraded to imperfect. Grind all the dungeons again in Vet for the perfect ones.

Careful, posts like this make waay too much sense. Cant be exposing them like that

Elsonso

RaunHunter wrote: »

I have also noticed that Crown store cosmetics, housing, and furnishing don't tend to interest those who do the harder content, generally. So, these people--who are the minority--pay for ESO+ and buy chapters. Meanwhile, the people who are happy doing the easy content and also are interested in the cosmetics, etc., are the majority. These people pay for ESO+, buy chapters, AND potentially buy Crowns for their miscellaneous purchases.

Now, keeping in mind the fact that it is a business, who do you think they will try to cater? The minority who don't bring in as much money and are much harder to please? Or the majority who are easier to please with a much higher potential for profit?

Yup. This has been brought up many times in relation to the Crown Store and Crown Crates. When the bulk of the revenue does not come from the game, but from the accessories, the game only exists to support the accessories. Water down the toilet.

daemonios

Elsonso wrote: »

RaunHunter wrote: »

I have also noticed that Crown store cosmetics, housing, and furnishing don't tend to interest those who do the harder content, generally. So, these people--who are the minority--pay for ESO+ and buy chapters. Meanwhile, the people who are happy doing the easy content and also are interested in the cosmetics, etc., are the majority. These people pay for ESO+, buy chapters, AND potentially buy Crowns for their miscellaneous purchases.

Now, keeping in mind the fact that it is a business, who do you think they will try to cater? The minority who don't bring in as much money and are much harder to please? Or the majority who are easier to please with a much higher potential for profit?

Yup. This has been brought up many times in relation to the Crown Store and Crown Crates. When the bulk of the revenue does not come from the game, but from the accessories, the game only exists to support the accessories. Water down the toilet.

Which is what I keep repeating since 2015 when ZOS pulled the old switcheroo. Monetize the game via mandatory subscription and you have to make a decent game. Monetize it by selling fluff and you only have to get people to browse the shop, regardless of the state of the game.

virtus753

Even an exclusively monetary-based system of priorities doesn’t call for actively disrespecting players. It merely permits the decision-makers to feel they can do so with minimal repercussions; the choice is still theirs, and it reflects on them accordingly.

Personally I won’t be returning to vMA. Not after the way they’ve chosen to handle this. I know I earned my weapons on vet, even if the devs themselves insist on erasing that distinction statistically. No BiS is worth my self-respect.

clocksstoppe

virtus753 wrote: »

Even an exclusively monetary-based system of priorities doesn’t call for actively disrespecting players. It merely permits the decision-makers to feel they can do so with minimal repercussions; the choice is still theirs, and it reflects on them accordingly.

Personally I won’t be returning to vMA. Not after the way they’ve chosen to handle this. I know I earned my weapons on vet, even if the devs themselves insist on erasing that distinction statistically. No BiS is worth my self-respect.

Finally someone who gets it. By regrinding all that crap, you're letting ZOS win here and get away with this horrible bait and switch. For what, for 0.5% damage boost on a target dummy? Like virtus said, our dignity should be worth more than that.

El_Borracho

Ugh, why? These two arenas are such a grind. Throw in the RNG and I don't know if its even worth it

Elsonso

daemonios wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Yup. This has been brought up many times in relation to the Crown Store and Crown Crates. When the bulk of the revenue does not come from the game, but from the accessories, the game only exists to support the accessories. Water down the toilet.

Which is what I keep repeating since 2015 when ZOS pulled the old switcheroo. Monetize the game via mandatory subscription and you have to make a decent game. Monetize it by selling fluff and you only have to get people to browse the shop, regardless of the state of the game.

Next thing you know, ZOS will have to put a full screen advertising window into the game when you log in so that you know to go to the Store to help stock them up on ZOS revenue. Oh. Wait...

clocksstoppe wrote: »

By regrinding all that crap, you're letting ZOS win here and get away with this horrible bait and switch. For what, for 0.5% damage boost on a target dummy? Like virtus said, our dignity should be worth more than that.

Is it a contest? You really have to walk away, or ZOS wins. If you play, you accept the situation. You can say you don't accept it, but ZOS chooses, and you can bet what they choose. Regrind... don't regrind... if you stay in the game, ZOS does not care.

Knowledge

El_Borracho wrote: »

Ugh, why? These two arenas are such a grind. Throw in the RNG and I don't know if its even worth it

I know, I wish the RNG was gone at least. Let us choose right?

leepalmer95

Elsonso wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

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RaunHunter wrote: »

When I thought about why ZoS would do this, I couldn't help but wonder how many people must have actually completed vMA. Let's assume (generously) about 20% of the player base actually completed it for the weapon.

My thinking is that the percentage of all players is probably single digits, closer to 1% than 10%. It would certainly be an interesting number for ZOS to reveal.

I highly doubt it’s that low.

Probably not among the players that frequent the forum, no. Still, it would be an interesting number to hear.

Wouldnt be able to get an accurate number with how artificailyl inflate the playercount is in this game.

The bot farms combined the the numerous free weekends and such has inflated the 'total players' by so much. The number of actual concurrent players is much, much lower.

And zos lose to inflate stats so even if you did get a reply it would one of those thats not exactly a lie but its misrepresented.