VMA and VDSA weapons will have perfected versions but your weapon won't be upgraded automatically.

Septimus_Magna

angelncelestine wrote: »

HllCntryHrrcane wrote: »

I love this game and love the combat. I have refrained from commenting on this because I felt it would be addressed, but it looks like it may not. I like having so many set options to mix and match. I love the idea of a vMA and a Perfected vMA weapon. Same for vDSA. That being said, I think it is a terrible decision by ZOS to not upgrade all existing vMA and vDSA weapons that were earned in the same combat level that the new perfected weapons will drop in. All existing weapons should be upgraded...period. I will not enjoy farming for perfected versions under the current proposed conditions. I will be sour and likely will not do it. Also there is little incentive to battle through through Vet Arenas for the little gain that perfected is going to give. There should be more difference between the versions.

1. All existing weapons should be upgraded given that the arena difficultly is not being altered from which they were won
2. Perfect and normal weapons should have a higher difference as the difficulty of doing the content is not proportional to the gains in they give
3. if you ignore my previous 2 comments, a completion of the Arena content should allow for a choice in weapon reward...maybe not the trait but at least in the weapon type (i.e. destro staff, DW, 2H, Resto Staff, S&B)...whether you receive an ax or sword or infused or sharpened can still be random if you like but give some better incentive to doing the hard content

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @xynode

I have also been lurking hoping for some sort of communication. It sadly doesn’t look like we will be getting any. I found it interesting that you tagged a streamer. I sure hope that they aren’t making this stupid decision to not upgrade our vet weapons because some streamer wanted a reason to run vMA again.

Yeah, I bet streamers will be really happy and positively promote ESO when the vMA RNG gives another useless weapon for the 30th time in a row.

Deathanubis

So the PVP portions can be updated, but not vMA or vDSA weapons. Curious and Curious

https://youtu.be/CZ2cFi5sdII

MattT1988

I see a lot of people on here saying “all we want is an explanation” or “I’ll just be happy if they told us why”

No. *** that.

The only acceptable response to this is a reversal on the decision to not upgrade the current weapons to perfected. They were earned in vet, they should remain a vet reward. It is an absolute insult to the people who have taken the absurd amount of time to learn and farm that arena over and over to simply take away vet level rewards.

There is no other acceptable response @ZOS_BrianWheeler can give. Don’t settle for simply being “given a reason”. There is no acceptable reason they can give. Nothing short of a reversal should be acceptable.

Deathanubis

MattT1988 wrote: »

I see a lot of people on here saying “all we want is an explanation” or “I’ll just be happy if they told us why”

No. *** that.

The only acceptable response to this is a reversal on the decision to not upgrade the current weapons to perfected. They were earned in vet, they should remain a vet reward. It is an absolute insult to the people who have taken the absurd amount of time to learn and farm that arena over and over to simply take away vet level rewards.

There is no other acceptable response @ZOS_BrianWheeler can give. Don’t settle for simply being “given a reason”. There is no acceptable reason they can give. Nothing short of a reversal should be acceptable.

Well they do but just wont tell ya.

"Now it is good time to buy Osirium dlc to power up your 'skyrim' experience (pay us premium £ for skyrim".

mairwen85

MattT1988 wrote: »

I see a lot of people on here saying “all we want is an explanation” or “I’ll just be happy if they told us why”

No. *** that.

The only acceptable response to this is a reversal on the decision to not upgrade the current weapons to perfected. They were earned in vet, they should remain a vet reward. It is an absolute insult to the people who have taken the absurd amount of time to learn and farm that arena over and over to simply take away vet level rewards.

There is no other acceptable response @ZOS_BrianWheeler can give. Don’t settle for simply being “given a reason”. There is no acceptable reason they can give. Nothing short of a reversal should be acceptable.

Of course reversal of the decision is the ultimate goal, but it would be greatly appreciated to know why the decision was made in the first place. The fact that none has been given, and no thought or attempt to even broach it, is already an indication that there isn't a reasonable explanation for it. So if there is no reason, why can't they just undo it? It is unacceptable that this step has been taken, no one disagrees with you, but rather than just outright demands, some of us are trying to understand the why of it -- that 'why' may not matter to some, but to me it's important to know if this is a new precedent/trend in the making and whether we can expect more of the same in future... likewise if this is a one-off, I want to know what qualifies all this disregard for the players for that to be the case. Either way, a roll back will be the only acceptable outcome whichever way you view it; I'm just looking at this with a wider view for the implications of such a decision, and not just the granular point of this one occurrence.

[ As a decision maker, in my job I am required to provide justifications for all decision I make, and provide a review of all potential pros, cons, risks and impact to service and customer satisfaction and experience. ]

daemonios

There are reasons. But they wouldn't be popular if stated outright.

Not upgrading existing weapons from vMA/vDSA translates to X hours of additional playing time as some fraction of the player base regrind them, at 0 cost of developing new content.

There's also Y number of people who will subscribe or buy clowns to be able to access the Orsinium DLC in order to refarm vMA weapons.

virtus753

daemonios wrote: »

There are reasons. But they wouldn't be popular if stated outright.

Not upgrading existing weapons from vMA/vDSA translates to X hours of additional playing time as some fraction of the player base regrind them, at 0 cost of developing new content.

There's also Y number of people who will subscribe or buy clowns to be able to access the Orsinium DLC in order to refarm vMA weapons.

And I would add that all that bodes extremely poorly for future decision-making.

This game has long differentiated itself from more generic MMOs (the devs even going so far as to deny it is one) by not requiring us to regrind the same tired — not to mention buggy — content for upgraded (excuse me, “new”) versions of our current gear. It has established the precedent of offering new cosmetic rewards for rerunning old content (e.g. motifs), while new gameplay-related rewards (like sets) are tied to new content. The decision here not to keep vet weapons as vet weapons and thus try to send us back to a 5-year-old hamster wheel is a marked shift away from the distinctiveness of ESO as an online RPG towards the genericness of an MMO with RPG elements. The contention over class identity seems to pale by comparison when the game itself is becoming the very thing the devs have categorically disavowed.

xaraan

Maulkin wrote: »

angelncelestine wrote: »

HllCntryHrrcane wrote: »

I love this game and love the combat. I have refrained from commenting on this because I felt it would be addressed, but it looks like it may not. I like having so many set options to mix and match. I love the idea of a vMA and a Perfected vMA weapon. Same for vDSA. That being said, I think it is a terrible decision by ZOS to not upgrade all existing vMA and vDSA weapons that were earned in the same combat level that the new perfected weapons will drop in. All existing weapons should be upgraded...period. I will not enjoy farming for perfected versions under the current proposed conditions. I will be sour and likely will not do it. Also there is little incentive to battle through through Vet Arenas for the little gain that perfected is going to give. There should be more difference between the versions.

1. All existing weapons should be upgraded given that the arena difficultly is not being altered from which they were won
2. Perfect and normal weapons should have a higher difference as the difficulty of doing the content is not proportional to the gains in they give
3. if you ignore my previous 2 comments, a completion of the Arena content should allow for a choice in weapon reward...maybe not the trait but at least in the weapon type (i.e. destro staff, DW, 2H, Resto Staff, S&B)...whether you receive an ax or sword or infused or sharpened can still be random if you like but give some better incentive to doing the hard content

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @xynode

I have also been lurking hoping for some sort of communication. It sadly doesn’t look like we will be getting any. I found it interesting that you tagged a streamer. I sure hope that they aren’t making this stupid decision to not upgrade our vet weapons because some streamer wanted a reason to run vMA again.

Why would a streamer want to re-run vMA and why do you think that would matter to ZOS? That’s a helluva lot of unbased suspicion. Tinfoil hat-like.

I don't know that he'd want to re-run it, but I can tell you this: I got put in his stream by a raid once and it didn't take him long to start talking about the subject. He was all for it for some reason and not only that, but I said in comments that I did not like the change at all and did not agree with it and he (or one of his mods) deleted my post and timed me out while he went on a five minute rant about how elitists just didn't want more players having access to the weapons. Times someone out so they can't speak up for themselves (I was not rude or trolling) and starts creating an argument to argue against using things no one said in order to have a point because he really didn't have one based off what I said. When I asked a mod why I was timed out for not being rude or trolling they said he didn't want to talk about the subject and "I was cool" even though he's the one that started the topic and continued on it for another five minutes. It's his house, if that's the way they run things, it's on him, but I'm not going to contribute to that sort thing, so I found a different stream that wasn't so toxic. Maybe he was dealing with someone before I got put in the raid and was already pissy about it, but that's on him.

I can also tell you that when people get access to devs and other company people their views tend to change, a bias creeps in that you don't even notice. I saw among staff when I wrote for a site (we covered games but mainly comics and geek stuff) and as we got into various things like E3, SDCC, and other cons and had more and more interactions with writers, artists, editors, etc. in interviews or even informal stuff like parties, lunches, dinners, etc. that bias starts to creep in because you don't want to lose access. These guys consider some of the zos staff friends and that's fine if you go into it knowing that fact, but if you look at a streamer expecting unbiased news or views of the game, you are looking in the wrong place. The couple I've seen that dislike the change barely mention it in passing, but the guys in support of it will go on rants about why it's fine. You can't tell me they just don't want to 'care' or 'rant' that much about a topic when they are willing to do it on the zos side of the argument. If it was really about not caring to get that involved in a topic they wouldn't get that involved either way.

And zos is more concerned with that perception/promotion than they are with ticking off small groups of players that don't have a big enough voice to influence new players. You don't think that these guys with access to devs and being able to private message staff and also get info on coming changes aren't prepped about changes and what zos hopes to accomplish with them ahead of time? I can tell you for a fact that the LA/HA changes that they rolled out and some of the Greymoor first looks went to stream team even before it went to class reps (unless they were part of both). So that tells you their #1 concern is controlling the message, not getting the message right. They didn't go to class reps about a huge change for feedback before rolling it out and getting streamers on message first. And there were streamers testing it day one and lying about the results of the changes, saying there was only 1-2k change of dps for LA rotations when it was more like 10k+ loss.

I don't think we should inflate it much past zos trying to control their message/promotions like any company would, even if it comes off a bit shady sometimes or streamers having bias (sometimes without realizing it) and not wanting to lose access to something that's providing a living for them. You don't have to go into tin-foil hat territory to see that's fairly probable.

Dragonnord

GO FARM IT AGAIN!!!

Or when you buy a Samsung TV model in Wallmart for $750 and two years later that same Samsung TV model, in the same Wallmart shop, is upgraded with new features and now costs $500, you are going to complain and say: "Oh! I bought this same TV here, with less features for $750 two years ago, I want this new model upgraded for free!"? Nah!

STOP COMPLAINING AND GO FARM IT (BUY THE PRODUCT) AGAIN IF YOU WANT THE NEW FEATURES.

Happens in real life; if you want the new model of a product you have to get it again.
 

mairwen85

Dragonnord wrote: »

GO FARM IT AGAIN!!!

Or when you buy a Samsung TV model in Wallmart for $750 and two years later that same Samsung TV model, in the same Wallmart shop, is upgraded with new features and now costs $500, you are going to complain and say: "Oh! I bought this same TV here, with less features for $750 two years ago, I want this new model upgraded for free!"? Nah!

STOP COMPLAINING AND GO FARM IT (BUY THE PRODUCT) AGAIN IF YOU WANT THE NEW FEATURES.

Happens in real life; if you want the new model of a product you have to get it again.
 

Except this isn't real life, this is a game where there is a quarterly promise of new content and horizontal progression. Your point is misplaced and moot in this context. There is no prior example of this method of implementation at any point in the last 6 years.

😂 And, naturally, you fail to see how this impacts potential future changes? This is a new methodology they are applying here. A whole new approach to content, but cool, see what else they depricate and devalue if they see a major statement of agreement with this.

Also, as many have said. Its not the bloody stats on the weapons that people are pissed about. It's the principle.

reiverx

Dragonnord wrote: »

GO FARM IT AGAIN!!!

Or when you buy a Samsung TV model in Wallmart for $750 and two years later that same Samsung TV model, in the same Wallmart shop, is upgraded with new features and now costs $500, you are going to complain and say: "Oh! I bought this same TV here, with less features for $750 two years ago, I want this new model upgraded for free!"? Nah!

STOP COMPLAINING AND GO FARM IT (BUY THE PRODUCT) AGAIN IF YOU WANT THE NEW FEATURES.

Happens in real life; if you want the new model of a product you have to get it again.
 

Another analogy is if you buy the TV at Walmart, then a few years later they come into your home and remove a feature. And then, after a few more years they offer to put the feature back -- if you pay for it again.

xaraan

"Go buy the tv again" -- there are a reason people use straw man arguments.

Make your point using the actual example before us, we don't need to argue about something different to try and discuss what we already have in front of us.

We ran vMA for vMA rewards. My rewards should not turn into nMA rewards and then I'm told to farm vMA again for vMA rewards.

IMO what should have been done is make nMA drop non-perfect CP150 items, vMA drop non-perfect CP160 and a perfect run of vMA drop perfected.

But I don't see how it's fair to tell a player that the reward they get today for vMA will be worse than the one they get in two weeks for doing the exact same content and double that with telling them they did vMA for nothing b/c nMA (something that is a thousand times easier) would have just given them that same reward. There is a reason players worry about them raising CP to 180 and it's because players don't want to regrind for the exact same gear just at a higher level (and perfected counts as that) like a lot of other MMOs do. They actually enjoyed the fact that you do new content for new rewards in this game and it's less of a constant re-grind. I don't think ESO should give that advantage up.

jecks33

btw the silence from Zos is ridiculous

20 days after the bomb dropped by Brian we don't have any explanation. Ridiculous.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Tommy_The_Gun

Dragonnord wrote: »

GO FARM IT AGAIN!!! 

I think I'll pass for now.

Gonna wait for perfected arena 5 pcs sets (as this is the next logical step).

tim99

MattT1988 wrote: »

I see a lot of people on here saying “all we want is an explanation” or “I’ll just be happy if they told us why”

No. *** that.

The only acceptable response to this is a reversal on the decision to not upgrade the current weapons to perfected. They were earned in vet, they should remain a vet reward. It is an absolute insult to the people who have taken the absurd amount of time to learn and farm that arena over and over to simply take away vet level rewards.

There is no other acceptable response @ZOS_BrianWheeler can give. Don’t settle for simply being “given a reason”. There is no acceptable reason they can give. Nothing short of a reversal should be acceptable.

virtus753

Dragonnord wrote: »

GO FARM IT AGAIN!!!

Or when you buy a Samsung TV model in Wallmart for $750 and two years later that same Samsung TV model, in the same Wallmart shop, is upgraded with new features and now costs $500, you are going to complain and say: "Oh! I bought this same TV here, with less features for $750 two years ago, I want this new model upgraded for free!"? Nah!

STOP COMPLAINING AND GO FARM IT (BUY THE PRODUCT) AGAIN IF YOU WANT THE NEW FEATURES.

Happens in real life; if you want the new model of a product you have to get it again.
 

This is as fallacious as the car model analogy from Discord.

Since at least One Tamriel, there have not been “new models” of sets of any sort introduced in this game, at least not when it comes to stats. There have been changes to sets that have been universally and retroactively applied. That’s why we don’t have an updated 2016 vMA model, an updated 2017 vMA model, etc., distinct from all other years. These weapons are not TVs, and they’re not cars. vMA weapons in particular can’t even be sold for gold without violating the TOS, so an economic analogy seems especially inappropriate there. They are not acquired the same way as TVs and cars, and they don’t represent the same thing. Moreover, it’s disingenuous to imply that this decision is expected or normal for this particular game when the closest in-game analogy (as Code mentioned earlier) is raising the level cap and not raising extant gear to it. ESO stopped doing that ages ago for good reason. Imagine the uproar (and the exodus) if they tried to do it again now.

There has been no justification offered for this decision that does not rely on false analogies. I find it especially questionable to alienate a segment of the player population so unnecessarily at a moment when the game and the devs can little afford to lose any further goodwill.

zvavi

Dragonnord wrote: »

GO FARM IT AGAIN!!!

Or when you buy a Samsung TV model in Wallmart for $750 and two years later that same Samsung TV model, in the same Wallmart shop, is upgraded with new features and now costs $500, you are going to complain and say: "Oh! I bought this same TV here, with less features for $750 two years ago, I want this new model upgraded for free!"? Nah!

STOP COMPLAINING AND GO FARM IT (BUY THE PRODUCT) AGAIN IF YOU WANT THE NEW FEATURES.

Happens in real life; if you want the new model of a product you have to get it again.
 

You pay for a premium card in a gym, unlocking all gym features (as advertised). Then they add 1 specific punching machine. And introduce new membership, diamond cards for that gym. Which has the price of the previous premium membership, and has everything in the gym, in addition to the punching machine. While the premium card cost is reduced by 60%.

That's more accurate imo. And If that situation happens in real life, some annoyed customers would demand a refund.

khajiitNPC

@virtus753 i know people who’ve paid on both Xbox NA and PC EU. So — while it is and should be frowned upon for having others actually play the game for you, it happens more so than people realize.

mairwen85

khajiitNPC wrote: »

@virtus753 i know people who’ve paid on both Xbox NA and PC EU. So — while it is and should be frowned upon for having others actually play the game for you, it happens more so than people realize.

Which is why I don't get why anyone would brag or boast they did it... I don't think I'd trust a stranger with my account. Just the thought gives me the shudders -- the only person you're fooling by doing so is yourself.

Curious_Death

G.G

Matchimus

Dragonnord wrote: »

GO FARM IT AGAIN!!!

Or when you buy a Samsung TV model in Wallmart for $750 and two years later that same Samsung TV model, in the same Wallmart shop, is upgraded with new features and now costs $500, you are going to complain and say: "Oh! I bought this same TV here, with less features for $750 two years ago, I want this new model upgraded for free!"? Nah!

STOP COMPLAINING AND GO FARM IT (BUY THE PRODUCT) AGAIN IF YOU WANT THE NEW FEATURES.

Happens in real life; if you want the new model of a product you have to get it again.
 

No depreciation in a mmo.

You say it comes out with new features...not a single new feature in vma.

Moose_Scout

MattT1988 wrote: »

I see a lot of people on here saying “all we want is an explanation” or “I’ll just be happy if they told us why”

No. *** that.

The only acceptable response to this is a reversal on the decision to not upgrade the current weapons to perfected. They were earned in vet, they should remain a vet reward. It is an absolute insult to the people who have taken the absurd amount of time to learn and farm that arena over and over to simply take away vet level rewards.

There is no other acceptable response @ZOS_BrianWheeler can give. Don’t settle for simply being “given a reason”. There is no acceptable reason they can give. Nothing short of a reversal should be acceptable.

Even though I am one of the "give me an explanation" people....I totally agree with you. It is too unacceptable that the more I think about it, I don't think any explanation will be good enough.

precambria

I wonder if they will address the desync and disconnects that happen every time I do this now considering they are forcing us back there.

Matchimus

precambria wrote: »

I wonder if they will address the desync and disconnects that happen every time I do this now considering they are forcing us back there.

Desync? Is an example where u block but it doesn't?

precambria

Matchimus wrote: »

precambria wrote: »

I wonder if they will address the desync and disconnects that happen every time I do this now considering they are forcing us back there.

Desync? Is an example where u block but it doesn't?

Yes or delayed bash, or mobs that stay alive slightly after 0 hp ect,

Matchimus

precambria wrote: »

Matchimus wrote: »

precambria wrote: »

I wonder if they will address the desync and disconnects that happen every time I do this now considering they are forcing us back there.

Desync? Is an example where u block but it doesn't?

Yes or delayed bash, or mobs that stay alive slightly after 0 hp ect,

Ty. Then I completely agree with your 1st statement. The amount of times I got knocked off the top ledge when blocking in the last round was beyond frustrating, and I had only finished it 6 times (stop doing it after 'the' announcement).

DCs happened frequently but don't recall me getting too upset as they seemed to happen between rounds.

I won't be going back there. That time has passed even on normal. Even if they reversed their decision. The place made with sick with frustration & while I was getting better as a learned the mechanics, it is the principle of the matter. While I continue to play I do not trust them.

FatFred

I can sense a tremendous server crushdown in the first week after greymoor officially released, 500+ players doing vma at the same time , how nice it could be.

nine9six

Dragonnord wrote: »

GO FARM IT AGAIN!!!

Or when you buy a Samsung TV model in Wallmart for $750 and two years later that same Samsung TV model, in the same Wallmart shop, is upgraded with new features and now costs $500, you are going to complain and say: "Oh! I bought this same TV here, with less features for $750 two years ago, I want this new model upgraded for free!"? Nah!

STOP COMPLAINING AND GO FARM IT (BUY THE PRODUCT) AGAIN IF YOU WANT THE NEW FEATURES.

Happens in real life; if you want the new model of a product you have to get it again.
 

Swing and a miss.

blkjag

Deathanubis wrote: »

So the PVP portions can be updated, but not vMA or vDSA weapons. Curious and Curious

https://youtu.be/CZ2cFi5sdII

Dragonnord wrote: »

GO FARM IT AGAIN!!!

Or when you buy a Samsung TV model in Wallmart for $750 and two years later that same Samsung TV model, in the same Wallmart shop, is upgraded with new features and now costs $500, you are going to complain and say: "Oh! I bought this same TV here, with less features for $750 two years ago, I want this new model upgraded for free!"? Nah!

STOP COMPLAINING AND GO FARM IT (BUY THE PRODUCT) AGAIN IF YOU WANT THE NEW FEATURES.

Happens in real life; if you want the new model of a product you have to get it again.
 

Hahahhahaha nah bro

Moose_Scout

Any news on this?