Feels like ZOS is actively trying to drive away veteran players

John_Falstaff

Surak73 wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

Mh, thinking about what you are doing maybe?... Elaborating some strategy, with goals and means? Even a well trained monkey can quickly press buttons...

And top Players Arent doing that Right now? Who knew that you could get all the trifecta Achievements for vet hm Trials without thinking About what you are doing.
Top PvP Players Arent thinking About what they are doing either? Hard to believe.

Of course, if they are top players (but even if they are middle players, actually...) they are already playing like this: they don't just press buttons quickly and efficiently but - as you said - they think about what they are doing. This is exactly why I'm a bit perplexed in front of all this fuss about Gina's critics not against "playing" but against "pressing buttons"... A good player has nothing to worry about this.

You're not getting it. Thinking about what you're doing includes thinking about your damage/tanking/healing (read: pressing buttons efficiently) and movement in response to mechanics (again: pressing button efficiently). Combination of all those efficient button presses done together constitutes skilled gameplay.

Allow me to ask, you're probably a good player, so you're already on PTS and probably have tested your damage, right? Do you have enough, after the nerfs, to clear Eternal Servant in vSS HM?

Sanguinor2

Surak73 wrote: »

Of course, if they are top players (but even if they are middle players, actually...) they are already playing like this: they don't just press buttons quickly and efficiently but - as you said - they think about what they are doing. This is exactly why I'm a bit perplexed in front of all this fuss about Gina's critics not against "playing" but against "pressing buttons"... A good player has nothing to worry about this.

Playing efficiently and Pressing Buttons efficiently go Hand in Hand. All the planning and thinking in the world will not help you if you cannot execute it correctly. Gina is essentially saying that it is a drawback that if two People think of the very same Thing to do but one cannot execute it and the other can, that the one who executes it correctly gets rewarded.
I really struggle with this line of thought. Why on earth shouldnt the one having the correct execution together with the correct thought be rewarded? Why would it be a drawback that someone can execute something better than someone else?

Surak73

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

Mh, thinking about what you are doing maybe?... Elaborating some strategy, with goals and means? Even a well trained monkey can quickly press buttons...

And top Players Arent doing that Right now? Who knew that you could get all the trifecta Achievements for vet hm Trials without thinking About what you are doing.
Top PvP Players Arent thinking About what they are doing either? Hard to believe.

Of course, if they are top players (but even if they are middle players, actually...) they are already playing like this: they don't just press buttons quickly and efficiently but - as you said - they think about what they are doing. This is exactly why I'm a bit perplexed in front of all this fuss about Gina's critics not against "playing" but against "pressing buttons"... A good player has nothing to worry about this.

You're not getting it. Thinking about what you're doing includes thinking about your damage/tanking/healing (read: pressing buttons efficiently) and movement in response to mechanics (again: pressing button efficiently). Combination of all those efficient button presses done together constitutes skilled gameplay.

Allow me to ask, you're probably a good player, so you're already on PTS and probably have tested your damage, right? Do you have enough, after the nerfs, to clear Eternal Servant in vSS HM?

No I'm not on PTS, I'm on console actually, but I read PTS notes and they didn't seem that bad to me. Course you have to think about new strategies, you can't expect to do the same content in the exact same way with these changes, but well, this doesn't mean that it is impossible. Players are conservative folks, they tend to see every change that takes them out of their comfort zone as a sign of some impending apocalypse, but usually it's not...

John_Falstaff

Surak73 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

Mh, thinking about what you are doing maybe?... Elaborating some strategy, with goals and means? Even a well trained monkey can quickly press buttons...

And top Players Arent doing that Right now? Who knew that you could get all the trifecta Achievements for vet hm Trials without thinking About what you are doing.
Top PvP Players Arent thinking About what they are doing either? Hard to believe.

Of course, if they are top players (but even if they are middle players, actually...) they are already playing like this: they don't just press buttons quickly and efficiently but - as you said - they think about what they are doing. This is exactly why I'm a bit perplexed in front of all this fuss about Gina's critics not against "playing" but against "pressing buttons"... A good player has nothing to worry about this.

You're not getting it. Thinking about what you're doing includes thinking about your damage/tanking/healing (read: pressing buttons efficiently) and movement in response to mechanics (again: pressing button efficiently). Combination of all those efficient button presses done together constitutes skilled gameplay.

Allow me to ask, you're probably a good player, so you're already on PTS and probably have tested your damage, right? Do you have enough, after the nerfs, to clear Eternal Servant in vSS HM?

No I'm not on PTS, I'm on console actually, but I read PTS notes and they didn't seem that bad to me. Course you have to think about new strategies, you can't expect to do the same content in the exact same way with these changes, but well, this doesn't mean that it is impossible. Players are conservative folks, they tend to see every change that takes them out of their comfort zone as a sign of some impending apocalypse, but usually it's not...

I have no more questions for you.

Surak73

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

Of course, if they are top players (but even if they are middle players, actually...) they are already playing like this: they don't just press buttons quickly and efficiently but - as you said - they think about what they are doing. This is exactly why I'm a bit perplexed in front of all this fuss about Gina's critics not against "playing" but against "pressing buttons"... A good player has nothing to worry about this.

Playing efficiently and Pressing Buttons efficiently go Hand in Hand. All the planning and thinking in the world will not help you if you cannot execute it correctly. Gina is essentially saying that it is a drawback that if two People think of the very same Thing to do but one cannot execute it and the other can, that the one who executes it correctly gets rewarded.
I really struggle with this line of thought. Why on earth shouldnt the one having the correct execution together with the correct thought be rewarded? Why would it be a drawback that someone can execute something better than someone else?

You have certainly a point, but that is not what Gina is saying, at least as far as I understand it. I mean, we are not talking about turning ESO in a turn-based strategy game: even with these changes, pressing buttons efficiently will remain a important part of the game. The question is only about finding some balance to prevent mindless, mechanical spamming of buttons from becoming the most important part of the game. A good player, I insist, has nothing to worry about it.

Rave the Histborn

Surak73 wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

Of course, if they are top players (but even if they are middle players, actually...) they are already playing like this: they don't just press buttons quickly and efficiently but - as you said - they think about what they are doing. This is exactly why I'm a bit perplexed in front of all this fuss about Gina's critics not against "playing" but against "pressing buttons"... A good player has nothing to worry about this.

Playing efficiently and Pressing Buttons efficiently go Hand in Hand. All the planning and thinking in the world will not help you if you cannot execute it correctly. Gina is essentially saying that it is a drawback that if two People think of the very same Thing to do but one cannot execute it and the other can, that the one who executes it correctly gets rewarded.
I really struggle with this line of thought. Why on earth shouldnt the one having the correct execution together with the correct thought be rewarded? Why would it be a drawback that someone can execute something better than someone else?

You have certainly a point, but that is not what Gina is saying, at least as far as I understand it. I mean, we are not talking about turning ESO in a turn-based strategy game: even with these changes, pressing buttons efficiently will remain a important part of the game. The question is only about finding some balance to prevent mindless, mechanical spamming of buttons from becoming the most important part of the game. A good player, I insist, has nothing to worry about it.

Been wondering why everyone's been freaking out about these changes, they're more hysterical than normal. I bolded the part that stuck out and it really hit home and answered my question.

newtinmpls

Arca94 wrote: »

[tiny snip] concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

Instead of lowering the ceiling and raising the floor of player skill you should be aiming to effectively teach your players how to use your mechanics to their full potential.

I agree. But I also see that in the system as it is, "full potential" is incumbent on fast typing, and the effective ceiling (assuming minimal lag) is typing speed...essentially.

That's not theory skill, that's not build skill, that's not combo and creativity and synergy skill.

IF this will make or break players THEN those players aren't really skilled, they are just fast. IF they are really truly skilled, then it will NOT make or break anyone.

Agenericname

Surak73 wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

Of course, if they are top players (but even if they are middle players, actually...) they are already playing like this: they don't just press buttons quickly and efficiently but - as you said - they think about what they are doing. This is exactly why I'm a bit perplexed in front of all this fuss about Gina's critics not against "playing" but against "pressing buttons"... A good player has nothing to worry about this.

Playing efficiently and Pressing Buttons efficiently go Hand in Hand. All the planning and thinking in the world will not help you if you cannot execute it correctly. Gina is essentially saying that it is a drawback that if two People think of the very same Thing to do but one cannot execute it and the other can, that the one who executes it correctly gets rewarded.
I really struggle with this line of thought. Why on earth shouldnt the one having the correct execution together with the correct thought be rewarded? Why would it be a drawback that someone can execute something better than someone else?

You have certainly a point, but that is not what Gina is saying, at least as far as I understand it. I mean, we are not talking about turning ESO in a turn-based strategy game: even with these changes, pressing buttons efficiently will remain a important part of the game. The question is only about finding some balance to prevent mindless, mechanical spamming of buttons from becoming the most important part of the game. A good player, I insist, has nothing to worry about it.

I'm quite certain that you're correct in that good players will survive. We will all survive. Neither make this is healthy move on their own though.

When people struggle with vSCP (just an example) do they struggle with damage or the mechanics? In most cases its mechanics since the only real DPS check is on the statues in the Zaan fight. Positioning and situational awareness are easily just as important as the mechanical smashing of buttons.

Will this change alleviate that in any way or will it exacerbate the current issues? I have a hard time seeing how tying resource recovery to light attacks and reducing damage across the board is going to help someone who is overwhelmed by the mechanics by giving them even more to deal with.

I'm far less concerned about good players because they will adapt, however, in order to play in the content that I enjoy, I need a group. Attrition will take its toll on veteran players and the ranks need to be replenished. I also need the content to be interesting enough and accessible enough that others will opt to play it, otherwise ZOS will divert those resources to something else or water the content down. Will this change empower players?

When I play I do so in various groups ranging from "help me get Zaans please" to "let's go get Mountain God." There is a skill gap in this game and it is rather large, too large IMO. It should exist, and it will regardless of the change, but it shouldn't be quite this large. Will this change close that gap? If it doesn't, then I do not believe that its healthy and I'm very skeptical of this one.

Making the light attack vs heavy attack seems more intuitive, however tying resource recovery to light attacks could make them even more necessary than they are now or reduce the damage of lower APM players so much that this would have had the opposite effect.

Sanguinor2

Surak73 wrote: »

You have certainly a point, but that is not what Gina is saying, at least as far as I understand it. I mean, we are not talking about turning ESO in a turn-based strategy game: even with these changes, pressing buttons efficiently will remain a important part of the game. The question is only about finding some balance to prevent mindless, mechanical spamming of buttons from becoming the most important part of the game. A good player, I insist, has nothing to worry about it.

Eh, I am a good Player and I worry About a 78% nerf to light attacks, which are among our highest dps. But mostly I worry About getting nerfed to close the gap between top Players and bad Players, frankly I dont really like getting nerfed in General and getting nerfed to close the gap between good and bad Players doesnt sit Right with me.

Arca94

Surak73 wrote: »

You have certainly a point, but that is not what Gina is saying, at least as far as I understand it. I mean, we are not talking about turning ESO in a turn-based strategy game: even with these changes, pressing buttons efficiently will remain a important part of the game. The question is only about finding some balance to prevent mindless, mechanical spamming of buttons from becoming the most important part of the game. A good player, I insist, has nothing to worry about it.

From my perspective pushing buttons 'efficiently' includes tactical awareness, split decision making, responding to attacks/the environment etc, whereas pushing 'quickly'/spamming/mashing does not and does not make you proficient in ESO combat.

I also agree that with the specific changes proposed, players shouldn't be too concerned.

But I'm looking at the bigger picture with this thread. Stating that they don't want to reward players playing 'efficiently' suggests to me that taking time to learn the combat and improve to maximise your own performance is not something the devs value going forward with the game. This is what I'm most worried about.

newtinmpls

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Gina is essentially saying that it is a drawback that if two People think of the very same Thing to do but one cannot execute it and the other can, that the one who executes it correctly gets rewarded.
I really struggle with this line of thought. Why on earth shouldnt the one having the correct execution together with the correct thought be rewarded? Why would it be a drawback that someone can execute something better than someone else?

If this was a sport, if this was the Olympics, if this was an actual contest, then I would agree with you.

It's not.

Gina's comment (and I essentially agree with it's interpretation and most of the ramifications) serves to remind us is that this is a GAME and we want it to be the most fun and the most accessible for the most people. Frankly, any time there is change I have to adapt (and I grumble).

This change seems to have a good chance to make this GAME more accessible at higher levels to more people. It may not work out that way, but nothing is perfect and things are always changing.

newtinmpls

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

I worry About getting nerfed to close the gap between top Players and bad Players, frankly I dont really like getting nerfed in General and getting nerfed to close the gap between good and bad Players doesnt sit Right with me.

Is it really "good players" and "bad players" or is it people who can type fast VS people who cannot.

For "good players", any given change won't really matter, because thoughtful combinations of skill, gear, race, class and playing with a good group and working together - all those will remain.

If it's really "super fast typing" that is making the difference - then it's not really skill at all.

Sanguinor2

newtinmpls wrote: »

Is it really "good players" and "bad players" or is it people who can type fast VS people who cannot.

Try taking 11 People into vSS hm that can type fast but havent practiced the game much and tell me how it goes. Then we´ll see if typing fast clears Content for you or if Player skill does.

newtinmpls wrote: »

For "good players", any given change won't really matter, because thoughtful combinations of skill, gear, race, class and playing with a good group and working together - all those will remain.

If it's really "super fast typing" that is making the difference - then it's not really skill at all.

So because I have a good Group no Change whatsoever will matter to me just because we can adjust better.
What a load of rubbish, just because I can adapt to something better than someone that has no Group and is a mediocre Player doesnt mean that a Change doesnt matter to me.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

There have been a few more baiting and bashing comments that had to be removed from this discussion. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful with the Forum Rules in mind to avoid thread derailment

idk

Zos is not trying to actively drive away veteran players. They are just challenged trying to manage combat and server load in this game.

Unfortunately, they have made major changes more than once without thinking through the implications. In Morrowind, they added an emphasis on LAs which increased the skill gap though they were stating they were working on minimizing the skill gap with that update. That is a prime example that someone is not aware of how actual mechanics play out in their game. Lets now forget that Zos released the CP system without a cap even though we warned them it was too strong at 3600 points which we tested on the PTS. They eventually added the cap we have now but it is another sign of short-sightedness with their vision and planning.

Icaruzs

marius_buys wrote: »

Dear Salty player, what we have here is a faiure to adapt. Here, let me dedicate a song

https://youtu.be/XorCG9p_nP4

That.

I hate those babys that always when changes comes they whine about it. This is an alive MMO there will be changes, deal with it. That's the process of balancing, if you want a true balance you will have to change even things that everyone loves.

Pets nerfs and AOE nerfs a couple patch ago just hit me hard, because it was my playstyle. But i didn't stay whining, i just changed my build.

Adapt period

Rave the Histborn

idk wrote: »

Zos is not trying to actively drive away veteran players. They are just challenged trying to manage combat and server load in this game.

Unfortunately, they have made major changes more than once without thinking through the implications. In Morrowind, they added an emphasis on LAs which increased the skill gap though they were stating they were working on minimizing the skill gap with that update. That is a prime example that someone is not aware of how actual mechanics play out in their game. Lets now forget that Zos released the CP system without a cap even though we warned them it was too strong at 3600 points which we tested on the PTS. They eventually added the cap we have now but it is another sign of short-sightedness with their vision and planning.

No, ZoS (the people the forums rail against for predatory monetary practices) is actively trying to force their "vets"(whales) out of the game. That is the only possible reason for every change they ever do.

Once this goes live it will cause the sun to explode and envelope the world in fire causing the extinction of mankind. Have I done any testing on the PTS. NO! Why would I do that!? I have streamers and other forums posters that tell mr what to think? WHAT!? You're telling me this is the forums reaction to any and all changes no matter how minimal. I can't possibly believe that. Everyone here is best of the best MLG, been gaming since the womb, and doesn't need to form their own opinions thank you.

mikemacon

::chuckle snort::

How long have "endgame players" complained about how ZOMG soooooo boooooring ZOMG heavy attacks were?

Well...if the changes go live, you won't need those pesky HAs for sustain.

Rave the Histborn

Sorbin wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

Look again at their aim
"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

The are saying that pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible is a drawback. They are not saying complex combat would be a drawback.

They are saying people that practice to make perfect is somehow a draw back, and thats the most ridiculou thing I have ever heard. Imagine if CoD devs were like " we are decreasing head shot damage because we dont want there to be a skill gap between people who can aim and those who cannot "

I was totally thinking of that example earlier. But you know the reply coming hot on the heels of that will be "oh please not another fps comparison. This is an mmo ect". Your totally not wrong lol it's a great example but im sure you too have perused thread after thread on this and this isn't going away. The long term players certainly are lol but not these changes. Small tid bit on a fps like COD; if you do have slow button mashing your going to not have much gaming in there. But ESO? there's PLENTY to do in the game other than just pvp and vet/hard mode trials. Plenty. Yet big changes are being made inspite of the plethora of options that dont utilize ani cancel and fast paced combat. COD? no changes. Yet...somehow they do just fine. Ah well...practice makes perfect in COD, and err crafting makes cool outfits in ESO

Have you ever played COD? Lol The games dont change because they're made to be as cookie cutter as possible to put out once a year and maximize money. They don't balance because that would be less profitable, not because they're stellar games by any means.

Also when has practice ever helped in CoD? How would practice help in CoD when every game has a cheater in it?

That's cool man. If I primarily played MMOs only...I probably would have said exactly the same things you did. Different worlds. @TheFM comment still makes sense to me and him.

LOL That's cool man, if CoD is your only FPS experience I can understand why the comment makes sense but if you've got experience playing video games in general you'd realize why it's a bad analogy.

I used to play halo in mlg , gears of war and cod. So I have enough experience kthnxbye.

So Halo and CoD experience, sounds about right

If you think halo 3, Halo Reach, CoD MW, BO 1 and 2, Gears of war 1, 2 and 3 on Xbox did not require significant skill in MLG matches, then I dont even know what to say xD.

No, they don't take significant skill lol. I mean the Halo 3 is probably the most unique among the games you're referencing but that's just a Quake clone in the end and Halo: Reach came out in a time when every FPS was trying to emulate CoD games so if you have a grasp on those games you're good to jump in. As for CoD games, once you have one down, you have them ALL down. That's the basis of the formula, don't do anything new, don't do anything spectacular, don't even improve on your own formula, just churn out the exact same game for the Christmas season.

Halo is literally nothing like Quake lmao. The Halo franchise does have an enormously high skill gap, particularly the original trilogy. CoD is played competitively almost purely because it's popular and Activision shells out the dough to maintain a viable pro scene.

LOL Halo is a Quake 2 clone. Sorry if it blows your mind that Bungie didn't invent the wheel, they just brought it to consoles in a time when FPSs was becoming the next big thing. Nostalgia aside they're pretty mediocre games even when it comes to FPSs and their skill level isn't any higher or more demanding than any other FPS. You just don't have games with those playstyles anymore but if CoD had Swat it wouldn't take any more skill than Halo would. Once you understand their inner workings (bullet mechanics, gun recoil, etc.) you've got the games down.

TheFM

Elsonso wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Catering to the lowest common denominator and "the mass" is what has made many MMOs FAIL across the last 20 years.

One can say the same thing about studios making the MMO inaccessible to newer players by creating systems that only favor the experts.

What I see here is ZOS walking the line between the two. Make the game more accessible and intuitive for new players, so they can become expert players, while not totally gutting the expert players.

It is only "player stress", probably enhanced by current events, that is making this more dramatic than it needs to be. We are not even talking about a feature they are intending to release. We are merely providing feedback for something that they wanted player feedback on.

The combat peak in this game is not inaccessible to people. People just need to actually PRACTICE. Novel idea.And they are not the experts, that much was clear with their stream of unhallowed grave.

To the first part... just "NO". You are incorrect.
As to the second part, you might have a case if those were the only four people working at ZOS. Right?

It was the dungeon lead xD.

Elsonso

TheFM wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Catering to the lowest common denominator and "the mass" is what has made many MMOs FAIL across the last 20 years.

One can say the same thing about studios making the MMO inaccessible to newer players by creating systems that only favor the experts.

What I see here is ZOS walking the line between the two. Make the game more accessible and intuitive for new players, so they can become expert players, while not totally gutting the expert players.

It is only "player stress", probably enhanced by current events, that is making this more dramatic than it needs to be. We are not even talking about a feature they are intending to release. We are merely providing feedback for something that they wanted player feedback on.

The combat peak in this game is not inaccessible to people. People just need to actually PRACTICE. Novel idea.And they are not the experts, that much was clear with their stream of unhallowed grave.

To the first part... just "NO". You are incorrect.
As to the second part, you might have a case if those were the only four people working at ZOS. Right?

It was the dungeon lead xD.

He looked like he knew the dungeon, too.

graybeardII

Not just vet players I'm a ways from vet but this is getting way out of hand how am i suposto l2p if they keep changing the game all the time

Gatdangmayne

Elsonso wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

We are merely providing feedback for something that they wanted player feedback on.

And you believe them. Right, and group finder failing is not them stingy about server upgrades, it's totally a hard to find bug. (Later they partially admitted it's not true.)

The problem with the internet is that it is hard to gauge the intent behind what people say and do. Here in the forum, we always seem to find people that assume that ZOS is bumbling around, clueless as to what they are doing, lying whenever they get a chance, ignoring anything anyone says, and just doing what they want.

I used to be one of those people, so I am familiar with the territory.

Today, I know better. They may not do what people want, or the way that they want it, but they are experts in the way the game works, and the do play their own game, and I am sure that they see the same bugs and performance problems that we do.

The players have asked to be involved in major combat changes earlier. Players have recognized that, by the time something gets to the PTS, a mere 5 weeks before launch, many things cannot be changed. They live by schedules and deadlines, and have lots of work to do, like a lot of us, and there simply is not time. We asked them to bring us in sooner. They are doing that, right now. They listened to the suggestion. They are listening to the constructive feedback about PTS. They are going to take that back and look it over, then decide what to do. They may decide to do nothing at all, but I expect that we will see a modified version of this in a future update. Probably an update in 2021.

TL;DR: Yes, I believe them.

And if you look over here, you'll see ive bolded the exact moment I knew you were either a ZOS employee or oblivious

karekiz

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

No, ZoS (the people the forums rail against for predatory monetary practices) is actively trying to force their "vets"(whales) out of the game. That is the only possible reason for every change they ever do.

I remember listening to Kripp talk about Hearthstone a couple days ago, he was talking about monetizing Battlegrounds. His words:

Do you think those rank 1 legend players are the ones giving the money to Blizzard the most? I really doubt. Typically Whales aren't those with tons of time to spend in game. Its the reverse honestly.

Sylvermynx

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

Coded65536 posted an excellent alternative on the PTS forums. One I believe everyone should read, even Brian Wheeler commented on it. Something similar may go live.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6671063/#Comment_6671063

Thank you for that link. That was extremely interesting. I would love to test on PTS, but not having a lot of data/bandwidth available means I'm not able to.

Rave the Histborn

karekiz wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

No, ZoS (the people the forums rail against for predatory monetary practices) is actively trying to force their "vets"(whales) out of the game. That is the only possible reason for every change they ever do.

I remember listening to Kripp talk about Hearthstone a couple days ago, he was talking about monetizing Battlegrounds. His words:

Do you think those rank 1 legend players are the ones giving the money to Blizzard the most? I really doubt. Typically Whales aren't those with tons of time to spend in game. Its the reverse honestly.

You missed my other quote

I have streamers and other forums posters that tell me what to think

Stop listening to streamers, there's been people that have posted in the forums in the last few days giving their totals and it's large sums and they aren't just casually playing here and there. They make more money overall from casual transactions but part of being a whale is your time investment as well as a monetary investment.

xshatox

“Veteran player” whos crying from slight change in the game. Who’s need to rearrange macro when there is new patch. Who need to learn new rotation since old rotation they can do it in their sleep.

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka

Greetings,

Some posts have been removed due to baiting. Please refer to our community rules when posting on the forums.

leepalmer95

xshatox wrote: »

“Veteran player” whos crying from slight change in the game. Who’s need to rearrange macro when there is new patch. Who need to learn new rotation since old rotation they can do it in their sleep.

Ahh yeah macro's why do people always say macro's xD

Macros are a term noobs use an an excuse on why people are better than them generally. What point would macro's be in this game?

TheFM

xshatox wrote: »

“Veteran player” whos crying from slight change in the game. Who’s need to rearrange macro when there is new patch. Who need to learn new rotation since old rotation they can do it in their sleep.

Slight change? 78 percent damage reduction on light attacks is not slight by any definition of anything. That is a nuclear nerf. For no good reason. They should just make heavies slightly more powerful, lights slightly less powerful, and leave it as is, no one wants to run heavy weaves, i have been trying it and it is the most lame thing I have ever done in this game. Even when I was new I knew right away that using a light attack before an ability would increase my dps.