Feels like ZOS is actively trying to drive away veteran players

Paidkilla

Paidkilla wrote: »

scottii wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

ricklaverd wrote: »

Who ever came up with these ideas should get fired. 1ST of ALL WE CANT CAST ABILITIES 75%OF THE TIME HELLLOOOOOOOOOOO. We have infinite sustain already 2nd of all u increased costs not to long ago and now you give us 2.4k resource restore with offbalance? 3rd That will kill templar pve dps and breton race will be useless in most cases.4th ppl wont take part in endgame trials because you nerf light attacks .ppl who weave will still out dps anyone who doesnt in pvp or pve.Simple math really 5th mola kena will reduce costs of youre skills very needed when you buffed are sustain with la when we have INFINITE SUSTAIN. 6th of all stop changing OUR GAME WE DONT ASK FOR CHANGES LIKE THAT WE DONT ASK FOR NERFS . 7TH of all how about you go play the game and see how lame it has become ZOS

Stop changing your game? but it's not your game. You are leasing, i wouldn't even say that, you a taking part of a experience that can be ripped out from under you at any time without and explanation. You have no right to that pixel character or the digital world it lives in, Yet your so demanding.

100% true. but it's also true for a game company to remain in business, they must meet the demand of their customers.

And 90% of their customers i assure you are not on these forums.

A few other games i play, Heroes of the storm being one, <Blizzard> There devs have actually abandoned the official forums and talk to people through social media sites about changes, this was due to the constant rage and negativity of forum posters about every change in game. I think the *** gets old to some companies and they just don't listen to forum posters anymore, cause there tends to be a trend where people only care about what effects their class, build or playstyle and not whats good for the game in whole.

Larcomar

Changes seem pretty sensible to me. I don't get why heavies don't restore - I think it would make more sense to just have them do 2 or 3 times what LAs do, depending on cast time - but anything that gets us away from the current meta of rapidly mashing buttons in static rotations has to be good for the game.

I get that that's what you need to do to "git gud" and some people genuinely seem to enjoy it, to the point they'll stand in front of a target dummy practicing their rotation for hours. But for me, that seems more like a minimum wage job than a way I want to spend my free time. I abandoned any "aspirations" I had to play that part of the game pretty rapidly.

This will, ofc, negatively impact a small number of people who've practiced and perfected their weaving and rotations to the Nth degree. But, ultimately, ESO's niche is that it's pretty casual friendly in comparison to many MMOs, and it makes sense for ZOS to play to its strengths. Design for the 90% of players, not the relatively small number of self identifying "elite" players.

In practice, I suspect this won't come to pass and it's all a bit of a storm in a tea cup. Leaving aside that the population of the PTS server is heavily skewed towards the latter group - how many "casual" players do you know who play on the test server? - the hard core players tend to be the vocal ones - just look at these forums - and drown out the largely silent majority who probably wouldn't mind this change.

Thevampirenight

Well I don't think its their intent to drive anyone away. There will always be players that come and go or come back and play again. I think the goal is they don't want everyone to be one thing, the game is were most players are just light attacking weaving and nothing else. I think some of what drives them is they don't want to be like just any other game. If everyone is winning whats the point nor do they want it to be treated like an mmo.

The point is they desire players to be diverse they do these changes because over time players just copy one another and just do what their other player is doing. ((Ps the changes they do supports the possibility they don't like players cookiecutting/Meta chasing the very thing mmo players tend to do. To Zenimax this isn't healthy game play behavior and they work to stamp it out as much as they can)
You can see this in the changes they do and one can tell that is their true goal here. They make this quite clear that this is the reasoning even if they don't outright say it fully.
From the Patch notes what they might actually be meaning with them.

There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible. Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide(To many players doing it), and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb(They don't like that the game is not diverse enough to have different styles thus the change). Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity (actual reasoning for the all the changes and they do is because of this factor sometimes monetary like Iceheart)), including lower-APM options.

We believe these changes will broaden the usage of Light, Medium and Heavy attacks for all players. In this new dynamic, Heavy attack builds will be more viable, giving low APM players opportunities to compete in both PVE and PVP. High APM play is still rewarded as the absolute highest DPS and requires a mix of both Light and Heavy attacks, interacting with Off-Balance as optimally as possible. (What they want players to be doing is mixing it up aka diversifying between the two. They want players to use both )

daim

The reason why the light/heavy attack change is been made, anyone get an idea?

I mean it's pretty obvious, which of the two things burdens the servers more:

1. clicking and holding a single button for a 3 seconds for a heavy attack to complete

or

2. clicking whatnot at least 10 times during that same period of time - constantly - times people playing the game.

Everyone likes damage, that's why you will be holding down that heavy attack

rpa

As a casual I feel ZoS is discouraging me too from playing and spending money on this game. I will never be elite player but I can do good enough to be useful in a group if I have motive to put any effort in it. But why should I? Like many things ESO has great potential and I'd like to move to veteran group content but I don't have motivation to play left because bad performnance, increasingly unrewarding gameplay and tediously bad QOL. Why spend time and money on a bad deal.

JumpmanLane

Larcomar wrote: »

Changes seem pretty sensible to me. I don't get why heavies don't restore - I think it would make more sense to just have them do 2 or 3 times what LAs do, depending on cast time - but anything that gets us away from the current meta of rapidly mashing buttons in static rotations has to be good for the game.

I get that that's what you need to do to "git gud" and some people genuinely seem to enjoy it, to the point they'll stand in front of a target dummy practicing their rotation for hours. But for me, that seems more like a minimum wage job than a way I want to spend my free time. I abandoned any "aspirations" I had to play that part of the game pretty rapidly.

This will, ofc, negatively impact a small number of people who've practiced and perfected their weaving and rotations to the Nth degree. But, ultimately, ESO's niche is that it's pretty casual friendly in comparison to many MMOs, and it makes sense for ZOS to play to its strengths. Design for the 90% of players, not the relatively small number of self identifying "elite" players.

In practice, I suspect this won't come to pass and it's all a bit of a storm in a tea cup. Leaving aside that the population of the PTS server is heavily skewed towards the latter group - how many "casual" players do you know who play on the test server? - the hard core players tend to be the vocal ones - just look at these forums - and drown out the largely silent majority who probably wouldn't mind this change.

Yeah, the silent majority who spams light attacks now and take 5 minutes killing a mudcrab, will spam light attacks in the future and get KILLED by a mudcrab, but die with Max resources lol, while role playing by a creek. LMFAO.

Paidkilla

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Larcomar wrote: »

Changes seem pretty sensible to me. I don't get why heavies don't restore - I think it would make more sense to just have them do 2 or 3 times what LAs do, depending on cast time - but anything that gets us away from the current meta of rapidly mashing buttons in static rotations has to be good for the game.

I get that that's what you need to do to "git gud" and some people genuinely seem to enjoy it, to the point they'll stand in front of a target dummy practicing their rotation for hours. But for me, that seems more like a minimum wage job than a way I want to spend my free time. I abandoned any "aspirations" I had to play that part of the game pretty rapidly.

This will, ofc, negatively impact a small number of people who've practiced and perfected their weaving and rotations to the Nth degree. But, ultimately, ESO's niche is that it's pretty casual friendly in comparison to many MMOs, and it makes sense for ZOS to play to its strengths. Design for the 90% of players, not the relatively small number of self identifying "elite" players.

In practice, I suspect this won't come to pass and it's all a bit of a storm in a tea cup. Leaving aside that the population of the PTS server is heavily skewed towards the latter group - how many "casual" players do you know who play on the test server? - the hard core players tend to be the vocal ones - just look at these forums - and drown out the largely silent majority who probably wouldn't mind this change.

Yeah, the silent majority who spams light attacks now and take 5 minutes killing a mudcrab, will spam light attacks in the future and get KILLED by a mudcrab, but die with Max resources lol, while role playing by a creek. LMFAO.

The silent majority is a dangerous opponent to gamble against, Take the real world for example. For every forum grip on this site, how many feedbacks are sent in on the game you have no idea about. People screaming on these forums might actually be the small minority.

Dusk_Coven

Arca94 wrote: »

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

You only used a partial quote which sounds like presenting a half-truth. The full sentence isn't entirely about efficiency. It's about pressing buttons.

Maybe ZOS doesn't want ESO to be a tap-clicker and they want to support all the platforms, not just PC with mouse and easy keybinds.
Maybe ZOS recognizes that button mashing is affected by lag and they have players geographically far enough that their ping doesn't go below 300.

Larcomar

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Yeah, the silent majority who spams light attacks now and take 5 minutes killing a mudcrab, will spam light attacks in the future and get KILLED by a mudcrab, but die with Max resources lol, while role playing by a creek. LMFAO.

Thank you for at least illustrating my point about the forums. I love how "hard core" players like to equate "casual" with *incompetent.*... Ultimately, with attitudes like this, maybe it would be better for the game if the proposed changes led some of the so called veteran players to leave...

SmukkeHeks

Well.. it’s a solution to the whole cp problem?

Don’t need to change anything, cause they’ll disappear?

Recent

when I keep pushing buttons very quickly and nothing much happens 😣

Arca94

Thank you to those who have contributed to this thread.

What many of you don't understand is that I, along with many other players who have stuck with this game for years through its slow decline, don't particularly care for the current changes proposed. I think they're unnecessary, but I could and would easily adapt to them.

What I do care about is the clear message ZOS seems to be sending with that post - that they will keep reducing the skill ceiling to cater to players who don't want to invest time into actually learning the game mechanics at the detriment to those that have.

mikejezz

Arca94 wrote: »

Thank you to those who have contributed to this thread.

What many of you don't understand is that I, along with many other players who have stuck with this game for years through its slow decline, don't particularly care for the current changes proposed. I could and would easily adapt to them.

What I do care about is the clear message ZOS seems to be sending with that post - that they will keep reducing the skill ceiling to cater to players who don't want to invest time into actually learning the game mechanics at the detriment to those that have.

You do realize you mix skill ceiling with exploiting a feature that was unintentional from the devs right?

JumpmanLane

Larcomar wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Yeah, the silent majority who spams light attacks now and take 5 minutes killing a mudcrab, will spam light attacks in the future and get KILLED by a mudcrab, but die with Max resources lol, while role playing by a creek. LMFAO.

Thank you for at least illustrating my point about the forums. I love how "hard core" players like to equate "casual" with *incompetent.*... Ultimately, with attitudes like this, maybe it would be better for the game if the proposed changes led some of the so called veteran players to leave...

Well a hit dog WILL holla...well casual usually DOES mean less skilled. I wouldn't say incompetent. ZOS yapping about "skill gaps" confirms that.

At any rate, anyone self-defining as "casual" should be outraged by ZOS's attempts to do anything to lessen the skill gap, cause then there'd be no difference between a casual and an outright noob.

There's more to being skilled than light attacks weaving. There's a certain gap in knowledge that comes from experience that even ZOS's mighty hammer can't nerf away.

I MIGHT just stick around and prove that point. Lol. Start tbagging some of these folks again. Dueling anybody standing still, like I used to. I ain't gonna mudball role players though. That's just mean! Hehehe 😋

WildRaptorX

No more button mashing. It’s already ridiculous and clunky I hope they don’t make it worse

colossalvoids

mikejezz wrote: »

Arca94 wrote: »

Thank you to those who have contributed to this thread.

What many of you don't understand is that I, along with many other players who have stuck with this game for years through its slow decline, don't particularly care for the current changes proposed. I could and would easily adapt to them.

What I do care about is the clear message ZOS seems to be sending with that post - that they will keep reducing the skill ceiling to cater to players who don't want to invest time into actually learning the game mechanics at the detriment to those that have.

You do realize you mix skill ceiling with exploiting a feature that was unintentional from the devs right?

But do you realize that your "exploit" screeching makes no possible sense to anyone actually playing the game on a higher level, right? It's a tale from players that have a hard time pressing lmb, nothing more. Your inquisition will not change that in a slightest.

Raudgrani

It's like when they tell kids "It doesn't matter who wins, that everyone does they best is what matters". Why would anyone even want to play a competitive game, when there's no competition involved? It feels like the kind of games you download for like 5 year olds, where you simply walk around in a garden and plant flowers to no avail. No way to become better, no competition, no rewards for becoming better, no challenge.

Larcomar

[quote=

Well a hit dog WILL holla...well casual usually DOES mean less skilled. I wouldn't say incompetent. ZOS yapping about "skill gaps" confirms that.

At any rate, anyone self-defining as "casual" should be outraged by ZOS's attempts to do anything to lessen the skill gap, cause then there'd be no difference between a casual and an outright noob.

There's more to being skilled than light attacks weaving. There's a certain gap in knowledge that comes from experience that even ZOS's mighty hammer can't nerf away.

I MIGHT just stick around and prove that point. Lol. Start tbagging some of these folks again. Dueling anybody standing still, like I used to. I ain't gonna mudball role players though. That's just mean! Hehehe 😋[/quote]

I think we're not actually that far apart - I think you're conflating "casual" and "role-player" but I'd agree with quite a bit of this. I'd certainly concede that there's more to skill than weaving. The issue I have is that, as it currently stands, too much of the "more" is - for me at least - really not fun.

To put this in more practical terms, since 160, I've improved my build, gear, weaving etc and my dps now trogs along somewhere in the mid 30s. Good group, a few more buffs and a fair wind, it might go up close to 40k; pug from hell, one of those bosses that takes a tea break in a fight, and too much sauce, it's going to go down.

Is that "good"? - ofc not; well aware of the numbers others parse. Could I do better? - absolutely. But to boost that, the way the game works now, I'm going to have to get a "proper" rotation, practice it and really tighten it up the button presses. Ultimately - for me - that's the point where the game stops being fun and starts feeling like a job.

I certainly don't want to see ZOS remove the "skill" component from the game - ultimately, one of the rewarding things about MMOs is progressing your character, and I'm agnostic on the issue of how wide the skill gap should be. But what I *would* like to see is a more rewarding definition of "skill" - something other than mashing rapidly through a static rotation.

These proposals obviously need a lot of work but I welcome the direction. Just to go back to the pts notes, the rationale is:

"While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options."

Something that moves the definition of "skill" away from the very rigid, narrow form it currently takes (how well can you weave your way through a rotation), and towards something that perhaps places greater emphasis on knowledge of the game, innovative builds and more strategic use of abilities would seem possitive to me.

redgreensunset

scottii wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

ricklaverd wrote: »

Who ever came up with these ideas should get fired. 1ST of ALL WE CANT CAST ABILITIES 75%OF THE TIME HELLLOOOOOOOOOOO. We have infinite sustain already 2nd of all u increased costs not to long ago and now you give us 2.4k resource restore with offbalance? 3rd That will kill templar pve dps and breton race will be useless in most cases.4th ppl wont take part in endgame trials because you nerf light attacks .ppl who weave will still out dps anyone who doesnt in pvp or pve.Simple math really 5th mola kena will reduce costs of youre skills very needed when you buffed are sustain with la when we have INFINITE SUSTAIN. 6th of all stop changing OUR GAME WE DONT ASK FOR CHANGES LIKE THAT WE DONT ASK FOR NERFS . 7TH of all how about you go play the game and see how lame it has become ZOS

Stop changing your game? but it's not your game. You are leasing, i wouldn't even say that, you a taking part of a experience that can be ripped out from under you at any time without and explanation. You have no right to that pixel character or the digital world it lives in, Yet your so demanding.

100% true. but it's also true for a game company to remain in business, they must meet the demand of their customers.

Which might be what they're trying to do. Meet the demands of their biggest source of income and end game players and pvpers may have to accept that that is not them.

Leeched

redgreensunset wrote: »

scottii wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

ricklaverd wrote: »

Who ever came up with these ideas should get fired. 1ST of ALL WE CANT CAST ABILITIES 75%OF THE TIME HELLLOOOOOOOOOOO. We have infinite sustain already 2nd of all u increased costs not to long ago and now you give us 2.4k resource restore with offbalance? 3rd That will kill templar pve dps and breton race will be useless in most cases.4th ppl wont take part in endgame trials because you nerf light attacks .ppl who weave will still out dps anyone who doesnt in pvp or pve.Simple math really 5th mola kena will reduce costs of youre skills very needed when you buffed are sustain with la when we have INFINITE SUSTAIN. 6th of all stop changing OUR GAME WE DONT ASK FOR CHANGES LIKE THAT WE DONT ASK FOR NERFS . 7TH of all how about you go play the game and see how lame it has become ZOS

Stop changing your game? but it's not your game. You are leasing, i wouldn't even say that, you a taking part of a experience that can be ripped out from under you at any time without and explanation. You have no right to that pixel character or the digital world it lives in, Yet your so demanding.

100% true. but it's also true for a game company to remain in business, they must meet the demand of their customers.

Which might be what they're trying to do. Meet the demands of their biggest source of income and end game players and pvpers may have to accept that that is not them.

Thats why I just cancelled my eso+ and finally gonna uninstall if those changes go live. And I can assure you me and MANY other of the 'end game' and 'PvP' players spend lots of money over the course of years on this game.

Elsonso

Arca94 wrote: »

Overhauling the combat seems entirely unnecessary to me, but I personally could live with the changes. That's not what this discussion is about.

What's much more concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

People need to stop thinking in terms of "ceilings" and "floors". That was cute, when it first appeared, but like "nerf", they are becoming terms that people just throw out because they want to sound cool and hip.

What Gina said makes perfect sense to me, and it is why I am here. I come from other games, where efficiently pressing buttons is all you do in combat. BORING! That is not ESO combat. That is not "dynamic" combat. Efficiently pressing buttons is for robots. Flawlessly pressing the buttons is for robots.

vestahls

As if certain players are good because the mechanics are just so.

Good players are good because they practice and learn. Thinking this will end because of a change to LA/HA is risible.

Rukia541

Elsonso wrote: »

Arca94 wrote: »

Overhauling the combat seems entirely unnecessary to me, but I personally could live with the changes. That's not what this discussion is about.

What's much more concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

People need to stop thinking in terms of "ceilings" and "floors". That was cute, when it first appeared, but like "nerf", they are becoming terms that people just throw out because they want to sound cool and hip.

What Gina said makes perfect sense to me, and it is why I am here. I come from other games, where efficiently pressing buttons is all you do in combat. BORING! That is not ESO combat. That is not "dynamic" combat. Efficiently pressing buttons is for robots. Flawlessly pressing the buttons is for robots.

Yeah.. ESO is so much different than other MMOs that use buttons to cast skills efficiently ... o wait. So efficient use of skills is robotic?
[Snip]

0/10 I bet you think skyrim had excellent combat.

[Edited for baiting]

Sanguinor2

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Well I don't think its their intent to drive anyone away. There will always be players that come and go or come back and play again. I think the goal is they don't want everyone to be one thing, the game is were most players are just light attacking weaving and nothing else. I think some of what drives them is they don't want to be like just any other game. If everyone is winning whats the point nor do they want it to be treated like an mmo.

The point is they desire players to be diverse they do these changes because over time players just copy one another and just do what their other player is doing. ((Ps the changes they do supports the possibility they don't like players cookiecutting/Meta chasing the very thing mmo players tend to do. To Zenimax this isn't healthy game play behavior and they work to stamp it out as much as they can)
You can see this in the changes they do and one can tell that is their true goal here. They make this quite clear that this is the reasoning even if they don't outright say it fully.

If that is their intended Goal then this is just a giant waste of time and a big exercise in futility. Unless they make everything 100% equal there will Always be something better that Players go towards.

PizzaCat82

When "casuals" can't button mash fast enough to kill bosses in your DLC dungeons on Normal, then you might have to rethink button mashing as a legit means of increasing DPS.

Just a thought.

Sanguinor2

Elsonso wrote: »

People need to stop thinking in terms of "ceilings" and "floors". That was cute, when it first appeared, but like "nerf", they are becoming terms that people just throw out because they want to sound cool and hip.

What Gina said makes perfect sense to me, and it is why I am here. I come from other games, where efficiently pressing buttons is all you do in combat. BORING! That is not ESO combat. That is not "dynamic" combat. Efficiently pressing buttons is for robots. Flawlessly pressing the buttons is for robots.

Im curious. What do you do in games if you dont press Buttons efficiently? Do you just stand there and move your mouse over the screen? Go into screenshot mode 24/7?

Ascarl

The problem is that ESO is right more about timing of buttons not about pressing the right buttons. So more motor memory than thinking.
I hope that a LA damage nerf leads to a state where pressing the right button is more important than 10 ms delay between button pressing.

TheFM

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Arca94 wrote: »

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

You only used a partial quote which sounds like presenting a half-truth. The full sentence isn't entirely about efficiency. It's about pressing buttons.

Maybe ZOS doesn't want ESO to be a tap-clicker and they want to support all the platforms, not just PC with mouse and easy keybinds.
Maybe ZOS recognizes that button mashing is affected by lag and they have players geographically far enough that their ping doesn't go below 300.

LMAO. I play on an xbox controller on PC and have 0 issues weaving. If you cant weave you just arent trying hard enough.

TheFM

Elsonso wrote: »

Arca94 wrote: »

Overhauling the combat seems entirely unnecessary to me, but I personally could live with the changes. That's not what this discussion is about.

What's much more concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

People need to stop thinking in terms of "ceilings" and "floors". That was cute, when it first appeared, but like "nerf", they are becoming terms that people just throw out because they want to sound cool and hip.

What Gina said makes perfect sense to me, and it is why I am here. I come from other games, where efficiently pressing buttons is all you do in combat. BORING! That is not ESO combat. That is not "dynamic" combat. Efficiently pressing buttons is for robots. Flawlessly pressing the buttons is for robots.

So what is holding down one button the whole time? Creative gameplay ?

vamp_emily

The changes make sense to me. However, I hope they don't punish players to much for enjoying pushing buttons. I like fast pace action.

I never weave LA's and still have fun.