Feels like ZOS is actively trying to drive away veteran players

Arca94

Overhauling the combat seems entirely unnecessary to me, but I personally could live with the changes. That's not what this discussion is about.

What's much more concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

Instead of lowering the ceiling and raising the floor of player skill you should be aiming to effectively teach your players how to use your mechanics to their full potential, with the payoff being better results in endgame PvE/PvP. This should be a rewarding experience. Stating that you don't want to reward players who have invested their personal time and put a lot of effort into understanding the game and its mechanics, seems utterly nonsensical to me.

As someone who's dedicated a lot of time to understanding and constantly improving in this game, I feel completely alienated by this post. We've all seen it coming, ZOS has been dumbing down this game for some time, but to actually come out with this confirmation statement is extremely disheartening to me.

alucardwickershampreub18_ESO

It seems like that because they are. What percent of the player base is end game players (pvp, trials) 10 percent maybe? The thing is we are also the most vocal about the flaws in this game and gives casuals pause on whether they want to play the game or not. They would have much better PR If all the veterans left the game, and hence make more money from new players and casuals. The quicker we are gone the more coin they can make.

Taleof2Cities

Any reason you needed a new thread for this, @Arca94?

Any reason you’re using General Discussion instead of the PTS forums?

Arca94

@Taleof2Cities

Because this is a discussion about the general direction of the game in light of the comments on the PTS, not the changes to light/heavy attacks or anything else on the PTS.

And because I've already made these points in the main feedback thread but they were removed despite stating them civilly with no baiting/flaming/profanity.

John_Falstaff

It's a performance optimization. Fewer players, better server performance.

I'm already considering on ditching ESO, because I don't believe a single word about it being just a testing of an idea and yada yada yada, ZOS did everything over time to lose last grains of my trust. The change will go live as is.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Any reason you needed a new thread for this, @Arca94?

Any reason you’re using General Discussion instead of the PTS forums?

I think it's about time for you to stop barring people's mouths, you're popping up in every thread without adding anything meaningful to others' opinions.

PizzaCat82

Arca94 wrote: »

Overhauling the combat seems entirely unnecessary to me, but I personally could live with the changes. That's not what this discussion is about.

What's much more concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

Instead of lowering the ceiling and raising the floor of player skill you should be aiming to effectively teach your players how to use your mechanics to their full potential, with the payoff being better results in endgame PvE/PvP. This should be a rewarding experience. Stating that you don't want to reward players who have invested their personal time and put a lot of effort into understanding the game and its mechanics, seems utterly nonsensical to me.

As someone who's dedicated a lot of time to understanding and constantly improving in this game, I feel completely alienated by this post. We've all seen it coming, ZOS has been dumbing down this game for some time, but to actually come out with this confirmation statement is extremely disheartening to me.

As a console player who's gone through 3 or 4 controllers playing this game, I'm all for less button mashing.

Arca94

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I'm already considering on ditching ESO, because I don't believe a single word about it being just a testing of an idea and yada yada yada, ZOS did everything over time to lose last grains of my trust. The change will go live as is.

Yeah, seems like a lot of dev time spent on something which "might not go live". I also suspect they'll just push it through without actually listening to players because it aligns with what their "vision" is.

brandonv516

Video games are tools for our brains so we can be sharper with real life tasks.

And they now want us to be stupider.

Mettaricana

Sooner all the vets gone the easier it will be to lower the ceiling and make the game cash shop 2 win dumb it down enough even the worst player feels like an alcast(no offense to him) and king of the world and that will make the terrible player spill his wallet all over zos face a literal money shot by spending cash on a game that makes him feel like some hot elite s***. Once the vets and vocal minority are gone the game has no oppositional voices for whatever changes they make that point devs could make all player attacks heal the boss and the casual player base would just eat it up like the next season of fortnite no matter how dumb the change is...

Hurbster

The changes make sense really.

Lab3360

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Any reason you needed a new thread for this, @Arca94?

Any reason you’re using General Discussion instead of the PTS forums?

Same reason you're making comment on it

Alienoutlaw

all the self professed "veterans" and "skilled" players that spent half their time noob bashing will now have to L2P all over again without the crutch of A/C, your 90k target dummy dps parse will be a thing of legend in years to come, but for now prove you are the skilled players you claim, rise above the proposed changes.

zvavi

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

all the self professed "veterans" and "skilled" players that spent half their time noob bashing will now have to L2P all over again without the crutch of A/C, your 90k target dummy dps parse will be a thing of legend in years to come, but for now prove you are the skilled players you claim, rise above the proposed changes.

Gotta break it for ya mate, stam has enough resources now to bash weave almost everything, effectively elevating the ceiling, with more A/C then ever before.

Kalante

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Any reason you needed a new thread for this, @Arca94?

Any reason you’re using General Discussion instead of the PTS forums?

and who are you? a forum mod or something?

carlos424

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

all the self professed "veterans" and "skilled" players that spent half their time noob bashing will now have to L2P all over again without the crutch of A/C, your 90k target dummy dps parse will be a thing of legend in years to come, but for now prove you are the skilled players you claim, rise above the proposed changes.

Lol. It doesn’t matter what changes are made. The good players will be dedicated, practice, adapt, and still be good. The bad players will not be dedicated, will not take time to practice, and will remain salty towards those that do. Same ole song and dance.

TheFM

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Arca94 wrote: »

Overhauling the combat seems entirely unnecessary to me, but I personally could live with the changes. That's not what this discussion is about.

What's much more concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

Instead of lowering the ceiling and raising the floor of player skill you should be aiming to effectively teach your players how to use your mechanics to their full potential, with the payoff being better results in endgame PvE/PvP. This should be a rewarding experience. Stating that you don't want to reward players who have invested their personal time and put a lot of effort into understanding the game and its mechanics, seems utterly nonsensical to me.

As someone who's dedicated a lot of time to understanding and constantly improving in this game, I feel completely alienated by this post. We've all seen it coming, ZOS has been dumbing down this game for some time, but to actually come out with this confirmation statement is extremely disheartening to me.

As a console player who's gone through 3 or 4 controllers playing this game, I'm all for less button mashing.

If youre button mashing youre doing it wrong.

TheFM

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

all the self professed "veterans" and "skilled" players that spent half their time noob bashing will now have to L2P all over again without the crutch of A/C, your 90k target dummy dps parse will be a thing of legend in years to come, but for now prove you are the skilled players you claim, rise above the proposed changes.

A/C =/= Weaving. Nice try tho.

Kalante

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

all the self professed "veterans" and "skilled" players that spent half their time noob bashing will now have to L2P all over again without the crutch of A/C, your 90k target dummy dps parse will be a thing of legend in years to come, but for now prove you are the skilled players you claim, rise above the proposed changes.

When you are this noob without realising that the proposed light attack changes will give tons of resources back for even more insane amounts of bashing than ever before.

Not that every vet does that in the first place.... Maybe you are the one who got bashed to death and come here to the forums to QQ.

Starlock

Arca94 wrote: »

Instead of lowering the ceiling and raising the floor of player skill you should be aiming to effectively teach your players how to use your mechanics to their full potential, with the payoff being better results in endgame PvE/PvP. This should be a rewarding experience.

Something to understand about those of us who aren't a fan of button mashing - irrespective of other players finding this a rewarding experience, others don't care about the payoff because the process itself isn't enjoyable or robs enjoyment from other aspects of the game. Back when I started to investigate what it would take to be a "good" damage dealer, that is precisely the wall that I ran into. True, I could have gutted my beloved characters of their creative designs and memorized some really boring repetitive button pushing order to "get good" as the kids these days crudely put it. However, "getting good" in their way was going to come at the cost of "getting bad" at what mattered to me. That wasn't a price I was (or am) willing to pay. I picked up this game because it was an RPG - a landscape I can tell stories in and create characters in. While I tend to strike a balance between creativity and making something effective for content I like doing, "getting good" their way demanded a lack of creative freedom. The developers state as much in that PTS thread, and they're not wrong in that observation. I've directly experienced those observations myself.

All that said, I don't really have a problem with the existence of content that will be forever barred to players (myself included) who don't want to compromise what they enjoy about this game to do certain content. However, I also recognize that these barriers are probably not good for the long term health of the game and would wager that is why this is being looked into. My main concern with all of this is will the changes have the intended effects? I can't PTS, so I can't speak to it one way or another.

Path

Bah. I'm happy.
Not a FOtM player.
I pick race, skills for what I like not what works and guess what?
All ok.

Unknown_Redemption

Bashing damage was reduced by 75% in 2014. Its overdue for another decrease.

ricklaverd

Starlock wrote: »

Arca94 wrote: »

Instead of lowering the ceiling and raising the floor of player skill you should be aiming to effectively teach your players how to use your mechanics to their full potential, with the payoff being better results in endgame PvE/PvP. This should be a rewarding experience.

Something to understand about those of us who aren't a fan of button mashing - irrespective of other players finding this a rewarding experience, others don't care about the payoff because the process itself isn't enjoyable or robs enjoyment from other aspects of the game. Back when I started to investigate what it would take to be a "good" damage dealer, that is precisely the wall that I ran into. True, I could have gutted my beloved characters of their creative designs and memorized some really boring repetitive button pushing order to "get good" as the kids these days crudely put it. However, "getting good" in their way was going to come at the cost of "getting bad" at what mattered to me. That wasn't a price I was (or am) willing to pay. I picked up this game because it was an RPG - a landscape I can tell stories in and create characters in. While I tend to strike a balance between creativity and making something effective for content I like doing, "getting good" their way demanded a lack of creative freedom. The developers state as much in that PTS thread, and they're not wrong in that observation. I've directly experienced those observations myself.

All that said, I don't really have a problem with the existence of content that will be forever barred to players (myself included) who don't want to compromise what they enjoy about this game to do certain content. However, I also recognize that these barriers are probably not good for the long term health of the game and would wager that is why this is being looked into. My main concern with all of this is will the changes have the intended effects? I can't PTS, so I can't speak to it one way or another.

This the easiest pvp game already. How hard cant it be to press r2 and a skill .The are nerfing the game for ppl who arent willing to get good

marius_buys

Dear Salty player, what we have here is a faiure to adapt. Here, let me dedicate a song

https://youtu.be/XorCG9p_nP4

Vaoh

Can’t wait until they tell us dodge roll grants 25% AoE Damage reduction instead of making attacks miss. At this point anything could happen lol

colossalvoids

At least they're quite successful in driving people off, wish i could have said the same about performance fixing.

lookstwice

Arca94 wrote: »

What's much more concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

\

OMG!!! Totally agree. I don't even know what to say to that comment.

OmniDo

This isn't surprising.
As someone who has played MMO's since Starwars Galaxies, this has been a trend for nearly 20 years.

Z0$'s goal is Money.
That's it.
Nothing else.
Never has been anything else.
Games aren't produced for their aesthetic or nostalgic value.
They're produced to make a profit.
End of story, move along people, nothing here to see.

If their proposed changes increase potential profitability, then they will be pushed through.
In gaming, as in life, the majority consist of the willfully mediocre.
Mob-rule always wins, unless your are Thanos.

Sigh, and I was really enjoying the run of this game based upon its meritocracy and performance-based consequence design.
Oh well, perhaps it is time to move on to yet another game where skill and effort matter.

scottii

Paidkilla wrote: »

ricklaverd wrote: »

Who ever came up with these ideas should get fired. 1ST of ALL WE CANT CAST ABILITIES 75%OF THE TIME HELLLOOOOOOOOOOO. We have infinite sustain already 2nd of all u increased costs not to long ago and now you give us 2.4k resource restore with offbalance? 3rd That will kill templar pve dps and breton race will be useless in most cases.4th ppl wont take part in endgame trials because you nerf light attacks .ppl who weave will still out dps anyone who doesnt in pvp or pve.Simple math really 5th mola kena will reduce costs of youre skills very needed when you buffed are sustain with la when we have INFINITE SUSTAIN. 6th of all stop changing OUR GAME WE DONT ASK FOR CHANGES LIKE THAT WE DONT ASK FOR NERFS . 7TH of all how about you go play the game and see how lame it has become ZOS

Stop changing your game? but it's not your game. You are leasing, i wouldn't even say that, you a taking part of a experience that can be ripped out from under you at any time without and explanation. You have no right to that pixel character or the digital world it lives in, Yet your so demanding.

100% true. but it's also true for a game company to remain in business, they must meet the demand of their customers.

joseayalac

Skill will still be rewarded, the changes just make the ratkid skills less rewarding and improve game experience and enjoyability even for competitive gameplay.

Also the changes make combat feel way more intuitive. This change is long overdue.

Matchimus

Not another one of these pts threads...

Paidkilla

scottii wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

ricklaverd wrote: »

Who ever came up with these ideas should get fired. 1ST of ALL WE CANT CAST ABILITIES 75%OF THE TIME HELLLOOOOOOOOOOO. We have infinite sustain already 2nd of all u increased costs not to long ago and now you give us 2.4k resource restore with offbalance? 3rd That will kill templar pve dps and breton race will be useless in most cases.4th ppl wont take part in endgame trials because you nerf light attacks .ppl who weave will still out dps anyone who doesnt in pvp or pve.Simple math really 5th mola kena will reduce costs of youre skills very needed when you buffed are sustain with la when we have INFINITE SUSTAIN. 6th of all stop changing OUR GAME WE DONT ASK FOR CHANGES LIKE THAT WE DONT ASK FOR NERFS . 7TH of all how about you go play the game and see how lame it has become ZOS

Stop changing your game? but it's not your game. You are leasing, i wouldn't even say that, you a taking part of a experience that can be ripped out from under you at any time without and explanation. You have no right to that pixel character or the digital world it lives in, Yet your so demanding.

100% true. but it's also true for a game company to remain in business, they must meet the demand of their customers.

And 90% of their customers i assure you are not on these forums.