Feels like ZOS is actively trying to drive away veteran players

Aptonoth

OmniDo wrote: »

This isn't surprising.
As someone who has played MMO's since Starwars Galaxies, this has been a trend for nearly 20 years.

Z0$'s goal is Money.
That's it.
Nothing else.
Never has been anything else.
Games aren't produced for their aesthetic or nostalgic value.
They're produced to make a profit.
End of story, move along people, nothing here to see.

If their proposed changes increase potential profitability, then they will be pushed through.
In gaming, as in life, the majority consist of the willfully mediocre.
Mob-rule always wins, unless your are Thanos.

Sigh, and I was really enjoying the run of this game based upon its meritocracy and performance-based consequence design.
Oh well, perhaps it is time to move on to yet another game where skill and effort matter.

It’s an mmo lol. There is no skill. Want skill play dark souls, Witcher 3/2 on highest setting, or even a strategy game like total war or civ 6. Want shooters then tactical games like rising storm. Almost any other game in existence is harder then the most "hardcore" mmo lol. Stop playing to group’s fate and play to your own.

Tanis-Stormbinder

Coded65536 posted an excellent alternative on the PTS forums. One I believe everyone should read, even Brian Wheeler commented on it. Something similar may go live.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6671063/#Comment_6671063

Vahrokh

redgreensunset wrote: »

scottii wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

ricklaverd wrote: »

Who ever came up with these ideas should get fired. 1ST of ALL WE CANT CAST ABILITIES 75%OF THE TIME HELLLOOOOOOOOOOO. We have infinite sustain already 2nd of all u increased costs not to long ago and now you give us 2.4k resource restore with offbalance? 3rd That will kill templar pve dps and breton race will be useless in most cases.4th ppl wont take part in endgame trials because you nerf light attacks .ppl who weave will still out dps anyone who doesnt in pvp or pve.Simple math really 5th mola kena will reduce costs of youre skills very needed when you buffed are sustain with la when we have INFINITE SUSTAIN. 6th of all stop changing OUR GAME WE DONT ASK FOR CHANGES LIKE THAT WE DONT ASK FOR NERFS . 7TH of all how about you go play the game and see how lame it has become ZOS

Stop changing your game? but it's not your game. You are leasing, i wouldn't even say that, you a taking part of a experience that can be ripped out from under you at any time without and explanation. You have no right to that pixel character or the digital world it lives in, Yet your so demanding.

100% true. but it's also true for a game company to remain in business, they must meet the demand of their customers.

Which might be what they're trying to do. Meet the demands of their biggest source of income and end game players and pvpers may have to accept that that is not them.

Communism is what catered to the silent majority and look how good it worked.

It creates an homogenous, grey blob of spineless and unmotivated, bored people who don't ever try to improve or use creativity.

Catering to the lowest common denominator and "the mass" is what has made many MMOs FAIL across the last 20 years.

Elsonso

Vahrokh wrote: »

Catering to the lowest common denominator and "the mass" is what has made many MMOs FAIL across the last 20 years.

One can say the same thing about studios making the MMO inaccessible to newer players by creating systems that only favor the experts.

What I see here is ZOS walking the line between the two. Make the game more accessible and intuitive for new players, so they can become expert players, while not totally gutting the expert players.

It is only "player stress", probably enhanced by current events, that is making this more dramatic than it needs to be. We are not even talking about a feature they are intending to release. We are merely providing feedback for something that they wanted player feedback on.

John_Falstaff

Elsonso wrote: »

...while not totally gutting the expert players.

They sort of botched that part miserably. Many times. Over a period.

Elsonso wrote: »

We are merely providing feedback for something that they wanted player feedback on.

And you believe them. Right, and group finder failing is not them stingy about server upgrades, it's totally a hard to find bug. (Later they partially admitted it's not true.)

There's plenty of ESO accessible and intuitive for new players. You don't even need LA weaving to finish your core non-DLC vet dungeons or normal trials. You can bloody finish vMA with just bashes alone. Except we all know that once changes roll out - and they will roll out - they'll come with major sustain nerfs, because that's what ZOS does and new LAs will make everyone oversustain, and newbies who don't weave will be gasping for resources unless they just spam heavies (which again will be nerfed yet because people are already getting one-shotted in Cyro on pts with new HA damage)... and newbie tanks - oh boy, they'll be spamming LAs and get one-shotted because they're bad at block-cancelling and weaving LAs and managing their resources not to need them urgently. ZOS can't do anything without screwing up big time.

And those development man-hours were spent on this instead of finally making people not surf on their bows, a bug that soon will go to kindergarten. Wonder if they'll let it last until school age.

Vahrokh

Elsonso wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Catering to the lowest common denominator and "the mass" is what has made many MMOs FAIL across the last 20 years.

One can say the same thing about studios making the MMO inaccessible to newer players by creating systems that only favor the experts.

What I see here is ZOS walking the line between the two. Make the game more accessible and intuitive for new players, so they can become expert players, while not totally gutting the expert players.

It is only "player stress", probably enhanced by current events, that is making this more dramatic than it needs to be. We are not even talking about a feature they are intending to release. We are merely providing feedback for something that they wanted player feedback on.

Come on, ESO is one of the easiest MMOs ever created.
Back in 2014 you would die if you pulled 2 overland NPCs by mistake, today you can pull a whole veteran 4 men dungeon spawn and you don't even flinch! (see my Youtube videos)

Vahrokh

ThePlayer wrote: »

OK no problem, veteran players don't pay ESO Plus, and most (not all) of them are bullies and pretend to watch players who have a full social life from top to bottom.

1) Veteran players are those who are accustomed paying subscriptions and taking all the possible advantages (for example, the endless materials bank).

2) Having a full social life is completely unrelated to being able to click a mouse button every second.

ThePlayer

Vahrokh-> Who said veteran players are the only ones capable of reaching 80k dps? Where it is written?

Now you as a veteran player, answer me with sincerity:

1) have you ever left a dungeons/trials group after died only once?
2) do you use the group finder to find players for dlc dungeons? or do you only go to premade?
3) have you ever brought players with 60k dps to your vet trials?

Hello, sincerity i recommend
P.S. I have over 1100 CPs

John_Falstaff

ThePlayer wrote: »

Vahrokh-> Who said veteran players are the only ones capable of reaching 80k dps? Where it is written?

Now you as a veteran player, answer me with sincerity:

1) have you ever left a dungeons/trials group after died only once?
2) do you use the group finder to find players for dlc dungeons? or do you only go to premade?
3) have you ever brought players with 60k dps to your vet trials?

Hello, sincerity i recommend
P.S. I have over 1100 CPs

Since you're out to bash veterans, I can also respond to your questions.

1) No. Instead, I was coaching and guiding newbies for hours if needed.
2) Yes, including random vDLC runs.
3) Many times, including tanking for very low-damage groups while they were learning.

App.A) Neither CP nor damage nor attitude is a definition of veteran.

Sanguinor2

ThePlayer wrote: »

Vahrokh-> Who said veteran players are the only ones capable of reaching 80k dps? Where it is written?

Now you as a veteran player, answer me with sincerity:

1) have you ever left a dungeons/trials group after died only once?
2) do you use the group finder to find players for dlc dungeons? or do you only go to premade?
3) have you ever brought players with 60k dps to your vet trials?

Hello, sincerity i recommend
P.S. I have over 1100 CPs

1) Nah, I explain mechanics if thats the issue or just solo it when its possible. I guess I technically left sometimes since some People dont like when you indirectly Point out that they dont know mechanics and kicked me for it. I might recommend the other DD to look up guides when I finish a vet dungeon with 90% Group dps or tell them to stick to normal since they wont cut vet with 10k dps without getting carried.
2) Farmed Veli in pugs so yes.
3) I joined Groups learning Trials so Im sure someone with low dps was in there

Elsonso

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

We are merely providing feedback for something that they wanted player feedback on.

And you believe them. Right, and group finder failing is not them stingy about server upgrades, it's totally a hard to find bug. (Later they partially admitted it's not true.)

The problem with the internet is that it is hard to gauge the intent behind what people say and do. Here in the forum, we always seem to find people that assume that ZOS is bumbling around, clueless as to what they are doing, lying whenever they get a chance, ignoring anything anyone says, and just doing what they want.

I used to be one of those people, so I am familiar with the territory.

Today, I know better. They may not do what people want, or the way that they want it, but they are experts in the way the game works, and the do play their own game, and I am sure that they see the same bugs and performance problems that we do.

The players have asked to be involved in major combat changes earlier. Players have recognized that, by the time something gets to the PTS, a mere 5 weeks before launch, many things cannot be changed. They live by schedules and deadlines, and have lots of work to do, like a lot of us, and there simply is not time. We asked them to bring us in sooner. They are doing that, right now. They listened to the suggestion. They are listening to the constructive feedback about PTS. They are going to take that back and look it over, then decide what to do. They may decide to do nothing at all, but I expect that we will see a modified version of this in a future update. Probably an update in 2021.

TL;DR: Yes, I believe them.

TheFM

Iskiab wrote: »

I don’t see what the hubbub is all about, it’s just another change. There have been a ton lately.

It also makes sense to change the combat system. People who’ve been playing the game for a while like it, but I still go on other forums like the FoH forums (old timer MMO forums dating back to EQ). Number one complaint about the game is people don’t like the combat.

People who have been playing for a while like it? I would like to direct you to the feedback and testing threads where the overwhelming majority hate it. I would like to direct you to cyrodiil where peopleare pretty livid over this. No one wants to play heavy attack meta again, its slow, it sboring, its lame, its uncreative. And of course going to other forums people will say they dont like the combat on eso , thats why they are on another game, and thats good, this isnt the game for them. ZOS should -never- change combt to suit the fans of another mmo, lol.

And its just another change? You know what happens in NO CP PvP campaigns, which btw are now the most popular pvp campaigns in ESO? It neuters our builds considerably, making the tank meta even more ridiculous. People already have issues killing mega tank stamcros and stamdens, and this will just FURTHER the gap. You know what inexperienced players do in cyro? In dungeons? They light attack spam, and they can kinda sorta get away with it. After the update they wont be able to kill a skeever. The LOGICAL thing would have been to change the cp star that increases your light attack damage, reduce the amount of damage it increases and BASTA. You should NEVER balance a game around a player base that refuses to practice the mechanics to get better, this isnt hello kitty island adventure.

TheFM

Elsonso wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Catering to the lowest common denominator and "the mass" is what has made many MMOs FAIL across the last 20 years.

One can say the same thing about studios making the MMO inaccessible to newer players by creating systems that only favor the experts.

What I see here is ZOS walking the line between the two. Make the game more accessible and intuitive for new players, so they can become expert players, while not totally gutting the expert players.

It is only "player stress", probably enhanced by current events, that is making this more dramatic than it needs to be. We are not even talking about a feature they are intending to release. We are merely providing feedback for something that they wanted player feedback on.

The combat peak in this game is not inaccessible to people. People just need to actually PRACTICE. Novel idea.And they are not the experts, that much was clear with their stream of unhallowed grave.

John_Falstaff

Elsonso wrote: »

...they are experts in the way the game works...

...but I still surf on my bow, and vFV still crashes at the last boss, and Avalanche bugs out, and AoEs don't line up with damage in vFL, and I just barely started.

Elsonso wrote: »

...and the do play their own game...

"F#$% you strangler!" - (c) ZOS dev team during live stream of vMoS him wipe fest, and they didn't finish it. I don't believe they play own game on any decent level.

Elsonso wrote: »

...clueless as to what they are doing...

Summerset: HAs are for restoring resources, LAs for doing damage.
Harrowstorm: LAs for sustain, HAs for doing damage.

...and many other cases of yo-yo balancing and swings, first buffs to one thing, then reversing the same thing, which is an indication that yes, they don't have any clue or direction.

Elsonso wrote: »

...lying whenever they get a chance...

It's totally a bug in group finder, but we're introducing a hard cap for user logins pro tem, and bug magically grows less prominent when servers are upgraded. Sorry, but I'm in software engineering myself.

So, no. My limit of trust is exhausted. ZOS will have to do better for me to consider trusting them again. They promised us communication, they promised to listen to our feedback, and nothing of that is happening. I don't need to remind myself anymore that ZOS is a machine for making money, not for making players happy, and if my idea of a fun game and their idea of making money do not align, then my money will go elsewhere.

Cążki

THis is END of the line !

Wifeaggro13

Arca94 wrote: »

Overhauling the combat seems entirely unnecessary to me, but I personally could live with the changes. That's not what this discussion is about.

What's much more concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

Instead of lowering the ceiling and raising the floor of player skill you should be aiming to effectively teach your players how to use your mechanics to their full potential, with the payoff being better results in endgame PvE/PvP. This should be a rewarding experience. Stating that you don't want to reward players who have invested their personal time and put a lot of effort into understanding the game and its mechanics, seems utterly nonsensical to me.

As someone who's dedicated a lot of time to understanding and constantly improving in this game, I feel completely alienated by this post. We've all seen it coming, ZOS has been dumbing down this game for some time, but to actually come out with this confirmation statement is extremely disheartening to me.

its horible to see a game go backwards as the years go by. since 2016 this game has done nothing to enrich emerge or evolve combat or group dynnamic.

Vahrokh

ThePlayer wrote: »

Vahrokh-> Who said veteran players are the only ones capable of reaching 80k dps? Where it is written?

Now you as a veteran player, answer me with sincerity:

1) have you ever left a dungeons/trials group after died only once?
2) do you use the group finder to find players for dlc dungeons? or do you only go to premade?
3) have you ever brought players with 60k dps to your vet trials?

Hello, sincerity i recommend
P.S. I have over 1100 CPs

1) I play in trials guilds and we do everything together, both vet / hm trials and dungeons. Never left them once, but that's quite normal since they are guildies.

2) I generally don't do DLC dungeons with randoms, because randoms don't want to do them to begin with. I am more than fine doing DLC dungeons with whatever, with my DPS I can more or less finish the stuff even if the other(s) are not top grade.

3) Yes, all the time, me being one of them until recently (that's a long story, I am usually asked to go as support role with lightning build).

Shadow_Akula

Remember they did say they were “killing it”
Don’t think it’s in any doubt that they meant it literally now.

Agenericname

ThePlayer wrote: »

Vahrokh-> Who said veteran players are the only ones capable of reaching 80k dps? Where it is written?

Now you as a veteran player, answer me with sincerity:

1) have you ever left a dungeons/trials group after died only once?
2) do you use the group finder to find players for dlc dungeons? or do you only go to premade?
3) have you ever brought players with 60k dps to your vet trials?

Hello, sincerity i recommend
P.S. I have over 1100 CPs

1. Not because someone died. If they're jackasses about it I'll leave regardless of when, otherwise it isn't a big deal.
2. Yes, quite often. I do most of the serious stuff with premades, challengers and trifectas, but PUGing a vet DLC can be fun.
3. Yes.

I do have eso plus. Some are bullies, some are very cool. All are people and people can be strange. I have no idea what any of this has to do with someone's social life, but the rest is a divisive generalization that is not rooted in fact.

Surak73

Arca94 wrote: »

What's much more concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

She didn't say "PLAYING as efficiently as possible"; she said "PUSHING BUTTONS as quickly and efficiently as possible".

It's not the same. "Pushing buttons" efficiently is something you can do in the best way even just using some macro; "playing" is not.

MLGProPlayer

I've been playing since 2016.

I think the combat changes sound interesting. The current combat meta has grown stale. I actually think the proposed changes will increase the skill ceiling rather than lower it as they add quite a bit if complexity to combat. Right now, once you learn to weave, you've essentially hit the skill ceiling.

Rave the Histborn

Surak73 wrote: »

Arca94 wrote: »

What's much more concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

She didn't say "PLAYING as efficiently as possible"; she said "PUSHING BUTTONS as quickly and efficiently as possible".

It's not the same. "Pushing buttons" efficiently is something you can do in the best way even just using some macro; "playing" is not.

What do you think you're doing exactly when you're playing? You're pushing buttons as efficiently as possible

Elsonso

TheFM wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Catering to the lowest common denominator and "the mass" is what has made many MMOs FAIL across the last 20 years.

One can say the same thing about studios making the MMO inaccessible to newer players by creating systems that only favor the experts.

What I see here is ZOS walking the line between the two. Make the game more accessible and intuitive for new players, so they can become expert players, while not totally gutting the expert players.

It is only "player stress", probably enhanced by current events, that is making this more dramatic than it needs to be. We are not even talking about a feature they are intending to release. We are merely providing feedback for something that they wanted player feedback on.

The combat peak in this game is not inaccessible to people. People just need to actually PRACTICE. Novel idea.And they are not the experts, that much was clear with their stream of unhallowed grave.

To the first part... just "NO". You are incorrect.
As to the second part, you might have a case if those were the only four people working at ZOS. Right?

Surak73

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

Arca94 wrote: »

What's much more concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

She didn't say "PLAYING as efficiently as possible"; she said "PUSHING BUTTONS as quickly and efficiently as possible".

It's not the same. "Pushing buttons" efficiently is something you can do in the best way even just using some macro; "playing" is not.

What do you think you're doing exactly when you're playing? You're pushing buttons as efficiently as possible

Mh, thinking about what you are doing maybe?... Elaborating some strategy, with goals and means? Even a well trained monkey can quickly press buttons...

Agenericname

Elsonso wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Catering to the lowest common denominator and "the mass" is what has made many MMOs FAIL across the last 20 years.

One can say the same thing about studios making the MMO inaccessible to newer players by creating systems that only favor the experts.

What I see here is ZOS walking the line between the two. Make the game more accessible and intuitive for new players, so they can become expert players, while not totally gutting the expert players.

It is only "player stress", probably enhanced by current events, that is making this more dramatic than it needs to be. We are not even talking about a feature they are intending to release. We are merely providing feedback for something that they wanted player feedback on.

The combat peak in this game is not inaccessible to people. People just need to actually PRACTICE. Novel idea.And they are not the experts, that much was clear with their stream of unhallowed grave.

To the first part... just "NO". You are incorrect.
As to the second part, you might have a case if those were the only four people working at ZOS. Right?

What is incorrect about the first part?

Shantu

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

Coded65536 posted an excellent alternative on the PTS forums. One I believe everyone should read, even Brian Wheeler commented on it. Something similar may go live.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6671063/#Comment_6671063

Code was on target with the criticism and suggestions. What concerns me is the contrast this draws between common sense and how the "vision" of the dev team tends to manifest itself sometimes. This sledgehammer approach to change is joyless and exhausting.

Sanguinor2

Surak73 wrote: »

Mh, thinking about what you are doing maybe?... Elaborating some strategy, with goals and means? Even a well trained monkey can quickly press buttons...

And top Players Arent doing that Right now? Who knew that you could get all the trifecta Achievements for vet hm Trials without thinking About what you are doing.
Top PvP Players Arent thinking About what they are doing either? Hard to believe.

TheTwistedRune

Aptonoth wrote: »

OmniDo wrote: »

This isn't surprising.
As someone who has played MMO's since Starwars Galaxies, this has been a trend for nearly 20 years.

Z0$'s goal is Money.
That's it.
Nothing else.
Never has been anything else.
Games aren't produced for their aesthetic or nostalgic value.
They're produced to make a profit.
End of story, move along people, nothing here to see.

If their proposed changes increase potential profitability, then they will be pushed through.
In gaming, as in life, the majority consist of the willfully mediocre.
Mob-rule always wins, unless your are Thanos.

Sigh, and I was really enjoying the run of this game based upon its meritocracy and performance-based consequence design.
Oh well, perhaps it is time to move on to yet another game where skill and effort matter.

It’s an mmo lol. There is no skill. Want skill play dark souls, Witcher 3/2 on highest setting, or even a strategy game like total war or civ 6. Want shooters then tactical games like rising storm. Almost any other game in existence is harder then the most "hardcore" mmo lol. Stop playing to group’s fate and play to your own.

Clearly you've never played Classic Everquest.

Rave the Histborn

Surak73 wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

Arca94 wrote: »

What's much more concerning to me is this quote from Gina's original post:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

This comment is so backwards it's scary. Why would rewarding players for playing as 'efficiently as possible' be a "drawback"?

She didn't say "PLAYING as efficiently as possible"; she said "PUSHING BUTTONS as quickly and efficiently as possible".

It's not the same. "Pushing buttons" efficiently is something you can do in the best way even just using some macro; "playing" is not.

What do you think you're doing exactly when you're playing? You're pushing buttons as efficiently as possible

Mh, thinking about what you are doing maybe?... Elaborating some strategy, with goals and means? Even a well trained monkey can quickly press buttons...

No, I mean what do you think you're doing when you play ESO not in between turns in Risk. You're efficiently pushing buttons. Even monkeys can stop and think of goals, it doesn't make them efficient

Surak73

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

Mh, thinking about what you are doing maybe?... Elaborating some strategy, with goals and means? Even a well trained monkey can quickly press buttons...

And top Players Arent doing that Right now? Who knew that you could get all the trifecta Achievements for vet hm Trials without thinking About what you are doing.
Top PvP Players Arent thinking About what they are doing either? Hard to believe.

Of course, if they are top players (but even if they are middle players, actually...) they are already playing like this: they don't just press buttons quickly and efficiently but - as you said - they think about what they are doing. This is exactly why I'm a bit perplexed in front of all this fuss about Gina's critics not against "playing" but against "pressing buttons"... A good player has nothing to worry about this.