curtisnewton wrote: »Why not make dungeons without story.. TRial, training etc. No npcs.. Wouldnt that make the hardcore crowd happy?
But make the story experience seamless. No rule breaking with suddenly coming to a full stop because the story telling shell: game, wants you to meta a group and chat and talk...
Imagine reading a book, and suddenly the pages are in italian and chinese.. Why??
curtisnewton wrote: »What you describe is a different problem. And I do not min max skilling and outfitting so for me overland is as hard as for you vet dungeon.
I play immersed and put skill points here and there. In wrong slots etc. But I dont care for min maxing and I dont want to care.
What you describe on the other hand could be achieved with dynamically scaling mobs. Someone who min-maxes his character has to fight harder mobs and gets better loot. Or even other solutions, but its another topic.
But what we describe with story dungeons is this missing option for us..
It seems like the devs thinking goes like this:
wow does this, wow good, eso must also does this.
And thats just stupid.
Contaminate wrote: »curtisnewton wrote: »What you describe is a different problem. And I do not min max skilling and outfitting so for me overland is as hard as for you vet dungeon.
I play immersed and put skill points here and there. In wrong slots etc. But I dont care for min maxing and I dont want to care.
What you describe on the other hand could be achieved with dynamically scaling mobs. Someone who min-maxes his character has to fight harder mobs and gets better loot. Or even other solutions, but its another topic.
But what we describe with story dungeons is this missing option for us..
It seems like the devs thinking goes like this:
wow does this, wow good, eso must also does this.
And thats just stupid.
No, you don't have to min-max to find this game painfully easy. My rando gear nooblet toons crush the game only slightly less quickly than my max level toons. They're certainly never in any danger even though I don't even place CP on them. I never upgrade their gear.
This game stops being a challenge once you learn to match ok dropped sets, block, dodge, and interrupt, and is never anything remotely like a vet dungeon no matter what gear, skills, passives, or lack thereof you have. Also, having to knowingly avoid everything the game teaches you in order not to steamroll the game, is not good game design, and it causes people to be woefully unprepared for group content once they dip their toes in due to the game not requiring anything from them.
Dungeons HAVE a story mode, it's called normal, where nothing is a one shot and the primary challenge is just your ability to follow mechanics. If so many people's main focus is just being able to read the dialogue, which as I said is complete fluff because meat of the quests are voiced aloud without any prompting required, then they should easily be able to form a group who wants to do the same. They have that option completely available to them, and if you feel like you missed out on anything then drop the quest instead of turning it in, and you can do it all over again.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***
Rasande_Robin wrote: »The npc will have to talk as you fight your way through the dungeon, since no one is patient enough to wait for you.
Contaminate wrote: »curtisnewton wrote: »What you describe is a different problem. And I do not min max skilling and outfitting so for me overland is as hard as for you vet dungeon.
I play immersed and put skill points here and there. In wrong slots etc. But I dont care for min maxing and I dont want to care.
What you describe on the other hand could be achieved with dynamically scaling mobs. Someone who min-maxes his character has to fight harder mobs and gets better loot. Or even other solutions, but its another topic.
But what we describe with story dungeons is this missing option for us..
It seems like the devs thinking goes like this:
wow does this, wow good, eso must also does this.
And thats just stupid.
No, you don't have to min-max to find this game painfully easy. My rando gear nooblet toons crush the game only slightly less quickly than my max level toons. They're certainly never in any danger even though I don't even place CP on them. I never upgrade their gear.
This game stops being a challenge once you learn to match ok dropped sets, block, dodge, and interrupt, and is never anything remotely like a vet dungeon no matter what gear, skills, passives, or lack thereof you have. Also, having to knowingly avoid everything the game teaches you in order not to steamroll the game, is not good game design, and it causes people to be woefully unprepared for group content once they dip their toes in due to the game not requiring anything from them.
Dungeons HAVE a story mode, it's called normal, where nothing is a one shot and the primary challenge is just your ability to follow mechanics. If so many people's main focus is just being able to read the dialogue, which as I said is complete fluff because meat of the quests are voiced aloud without any prompting required, then they should easily be able to form a group who wants to do the same. They have that option completely available to them, and if you feel like you missed out on anything then drop the quest instead of turning it in, and you can do it all over again.
your so call solution is exactly the problem
having to drop the quest over and over again in hope that next time maybe you'll get to see all that dialogue IS THE PROBLEM
what you call fluff - is THE MEAT for the story focused player. its THE reason to do the dungeon in a first place.
especially now that they are making those stories part of ongoing storylines.
no. even in a group that is willing to do some waiting/is also in it for the story, its NOT the same. and its been explain in this thread and other threads like it - over and over, WHY its not working. you just refuse to acknowledge it, because YOU personaly don't care about those aspects, which means - they are fluff and are inconsequential and don't matter.
curtisnewton wrote: »How do people do dungeons, do join a qeue and then keep doing stuff until enough ppl join?
How many minutes do you have to wait. I am trying this weekend again, the first dungeonset if the dragons: wrathstone (something something ice or frost cave and the other name dont remember).
How long are dungeons?
You underestimate people, if there is a way to farm set gear 100 times faster, it wouldn't matter if it's white.
No rewards for a no effort mode, otherwise it's clear why people want it.
A quest-/storymode should still have drops like normal overland quest content or delves. After all, it would most likely still be harder than a delve (most likely inbetween delve and public dungeon in terms of difficulty).
Of course it shouldn't award dungeon set pieces, those must be reserved for group modes. They are the greatest incentive, besides the fugly monster helmets/shoulders, for running dungeons over and over again after all.
A storymode should also not grant achievements, they are tied to the the normal/vet modes and that's fine. I'm a bit torn about the skill point, since it would depend on when the skill point is gained. If it's for defeating the final boss/finishing the dungeon... then it shouldn't be granted. If, however, it is tied to the quest, it should be granted.
curtisnewton wrote: »I dont like real life things when i am playing elder scrolls. Wanted to do a dungeon (first elseweyr) and had to qeue, which is already more real life meta than i like. But after waiting five - ten minutes and being killed by dungeon mobs over and over i cancelled it.
The extreme mob strength gain feels immersion breaking: i normally 'kill' deadra but suddenly I die to a dog?
Also I dont want to join guilds and talk or write.. I just want to be immersed.. Have the feeling i got to skip dungeons. I just hope i wont miss important story pieces..
Just hope devs recognize elder scrolls strength and not force wow gameplay down our throates. Why is there a need for static group dungeons anyway? Thats so anachronistic, its 2020 and not 2006....
Why not dynamically sync to player count and make it open. More players, more mobs, or greater mobs....
TokenIntellect wrote: »Many players are vehemently opposed to what they're doing with dungeons. Validating the tender feelings of the 'hardcore' gamers should not come at the expense of burying the story behind one-shot mechanics and forced group play.
A failure to imagine a game that works for more people is one of the biggest disappointments of this last year.
Oh, and how does adding something that expands the access to story take something away from the 'hardcore' side of the game? That's just silliness. It's not a zero-sum game.
If you wanted a single player game, eso was never the game for you. ever. They cater to everyone, and you are not the crowd they are catering to when it comes to dungeons. And yes, demon dogs should be able to kill you quickly.
If you wanted a single player game, eso was never the game for you. ever. They cater to everyone, and you are not the crowd they are catering to when it comes to dungeons. And yes, demon dogs should be able to kill you quickly.
Tbh the game being mmo shouldn't affect the content available. Especially since the game has such a big casual community from TeS games. Now i agree that skill points should not be given on story mode (even though they are tied to the quest, so if it is implemented they will probably put it in anyway) because it will lower the initiative to go multiplayer for dungeon skill points (i would totally take all my tank toons for quick rushed story mode for skill points ez, and thats already a huge reason against it)
If you wanted a single player game, eso was never the game for you. ever. They cater to everyone, and you are not the crowd they are catering to when it comes to dungeons. And yes, demon dogs should be able to kill you quickly.
Tbh the game being mmo shouldn't affect the content available. Especially since the game has such a big casual community from TeS games. Now i agree that skill points should not be given on story mode (even though they are tied to the quest, so if it is implemented they will probably put it in anyway) because it will lower the initiative to go multiplayer for dungeon skill points (i would totally take all my tank toons for quick rushed story mode for skill points ez, and thats already a huge reason against it)
shifting to spending dev time on a story mode would take away somewhere else.
curtisnewton wrote: »
If you wanted a single player game, eso was never the game for you. ever. They cater to everyone, and you are not the crowd they are catering to when it comes to dungeons. And yes, demon dogs should be able to kill you quickly.
Tbh the game being mmo shouldn't affect the content available. Especially since the game has such a big casual community from TeS games. Now i agree that skill points should not be given on story mode (even though they are tied to the quest, so if it is implemented they will probably put it in anyway) because it will lower the initiative to go multiplayer for dungeon skill points (i would totally take all my tank toons for quick rushed story mode for skill points ez, and thats already a huge reason against it)
about 75 percent of the content is story content. They release content to multiple player groups, shifting to spending dev time on a story mode would take away somewhere else. While im not opposed to the idea with 0 rewards, I am opposed to it if its going to cause other aspects of the game to get neglected.
curtisnewton wrote: »
Cause i am sure what mmo that lacks tanks in group finder prefers more of them not going to group finder.
If you wanted a single player game, eso was never the game for you. ever. They cater to everyone, and you are not the crowd they are catering to when it comes to dungeons. And yes, demon dogs should be able to kill you quickly.
Tbh the game being mmo shouldn't affect the content available. Especially since the game has such a big casual community from TeS games. Now i agree that skill points should not be given on story mode (even though they are tied to the quest, so if it is implemented they will probably put it in anyway) because it will lower the initiative to go multiplayer for dungeon skill points (i would totally take all my tank toons for quick rushed story mode for skill points ez, and thats already a huge reason against it)
about 75 percent of the content is story content. They release content to multiple player groups, shifting to spending dev time on a story mode would take away somewhere else. While im not opposed to the idea with 0 rewards, I am opposed to it if its going to cause other aspects of the game to get neglected.
curtisnewton wrote: »curtisnewton wrote: »
Cause i am sure what mmo that lacks tanks in group finder prefers more of them not going to group finder.
If you wanted a single player game, eso was never the game for you. ever. They cater to everyone, and you are not the crowd they are catering to when it comes to dungeons. And yes, demon dogs should be able to kill you quickly.
Tbh the game being mmo shouldn't affect the content available. Especially since the game has such a big casual community from TeS games. Now i agree that skill points should not be given on story mode (even though they are tied to the quest, so if it is implemented they will probably put it in anyway) because it will lower the initiative to go multiplayer for dungeon skill points (i would totally take all my tank toons for quick rushed story mode for skill points ez, and thats already a huge reason against it)
about 75 percent of the content is story content. They release content to multiple player groups, shifting to spending dev time on a story mode would take away somewhere else. While im not opposed to the idea with 0 rewards, I am opposed to it if its going to cause other aspects of the game to get neglected.
So as long as it is instead of part of overland content you are ok with it? You my friend are less opposed then i am, but made a whole propaganda here xd
If tanks only play for reward and not fun, then the problem lies there....
curtisnewton wrote: »
If you wanted a single player game, eso was never the game for you. ever. They cater to everyone, and you are not the crowd they are catering to when it comes to dungeons. And yes, demon dogs should be able to kill you quickly.
Tbh the game being mmo shouldn't affect the content available. Especially since the game has such a big casual community from TeS games. Now i agree that skill points should not be given on story mode (even though they are tied to the quest, so if it is implemented they will probably put it in anyway) because it will lower the initiative to go multiplayer for dungeon skill points (i would totally take all my tank toons for quick rushed story mode for skill points ez, and thats already a huge reason against it)
shifting to spending dev time on a story mode would take away somewhere else.
Do you think it is really a lot more than sth. Like:
If player count = 1
Then mobstrength factor = 0.2
?
Story mode sounds so big, but in fact.. Just being easier with weaker enemies would be already ok. As there is already a deep scaling mechanic in place I doubt much dev time was lost.
And gaining a 60% more happy player base (according to the polls) should be worth it anyway. And how can sth. Optional offend anyone is beyond me.
Contaminate wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »curtisnewton wrote: »What you describe is a different problem. And I do not min max skilling and outfitting so for me overland is as hard as for you vet dungeon.
I play immersed and put skill points here and there. In wrong slots etc. But I dont care for min maxing and I dont want to care.
What you describe on the other hand could be achieved with dynamically scaling mobs. Someone who min-maxes his character has to fight harder mobs and gets better loot. Or even other solutions, but its another topic.
But what we describe with story dungeons is this missing option for us..
It seems like the devs thinking goes like this:
wow does this, wow good, eso must also does this.
And thats just stupid.
No, you don't have to min-max to find this game painfully easy. My rando gear nooblet toons crush the game only slightly less quickly than my max level toons. They're certainly never in any danger even though I don't even place CP on them. I never upgrade their gear.
This game stops being a challenge once you learn to match ok dropped sets, block, dodge, and interrupt, and is never anything remotely like a vet dungeon no matter what gear, skills, passives, or lack thereof you have. Also, having to knowingly avoid everything the game teaches you in order not to steamroll the game, is not good game design, and it causes people to be woefully unprepared for group content once they dip their toes in due to the game not requiring anything from them.
Dungeons HAVE a story mode, it's called normal, where nothing is a one shot and the primary challenge is just your ability to follow mechanics. If so many people's main focus is just being able to read the dialogue, which as I said is complete fluff because meat of the quests are voiced aloud without any prompting required, then they should easily be able to form a group who wants to do the same. They have that option completely available to them, and if you feel like you missed out on anything then drop the quest instead of turning it in, and you can do it all over again.
your so call solution is exactly the problem
having to drop the quest over and over again in hope that next time maybe you'll get to see all that dialogue IS THE PROBLEM
what you call fluff - is THE MEAT for the story focused player. its THE reason to do the dungeon in a first place.
especially now that they are making those stories part of ongoing storylines.
no. even in a group that is willing to do some waiting/is also in it for the story, its NOT the same. and its been explain in this thread and other threads like it - over and over, WHY its not working. you just refuse to acknowledge it, because YOU personaly don't care about those aspects, which means - they are fluff and are inconsequential and don't matter.
The Wrathstone dungeons were completely separate from the Elsweyr story. Could have replaced the word “Wrathstone” with “Artifact” and nothing about the dialogue would have changed aside from that one word.
The entirety of their impact on the story was one line of dialogue during the prologue.
I call optional dungeon dialogue what it is: extra fluff. Additions that don’t affect the overall narrative because the central narratives in dungeons are fully and automatically voiced aloud.
Everyone claims it’s “not the same” to read dialogue with a group, so instead they ask for every dungeon to have its mechanics and all aspects of effort requirements removed and made impossible to fail, just so they can read the bonus fluff.
Make quests repeatable. That’s fine. But there is literally no point in stripping out what makes a dungeon group content to appeal to people who want to read a dungeon instead of play through it.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***
Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Just so you guys know, if this is implemented and they give rewards for story dungeons i'll never queue again.
Why be stuck with a bunch of randoms when i can solo?
you guys will start to slowly kill the group content with this.
When will we cry for story mode trials?
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***
Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Just so you guys know, if this is implemented and they give rewards for story dungeons i'll never queue again.
Why be stuck with a bunch of randoms when i can solo?
you guys will start to slowly kill the group content with this.
When will we cry for story mode trials?
Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Just so you guys know, if this is implemented and they give rewards for story dungeons i'll never queue again.
Why be stuck with a bunch of randoms when i can solo?
you guys will start to slowly kill the group content with this.
When will we cry for story mode trials?
becasue they won' give the same rewards? if you want group rewards, you have to do a group version. its not like this is a new and unexpected concept, other games have done this before.
story mode trials that don't drop trials gear or achievements - would be great. there are some choice stories in those.
BejaProphet wrote: »Ciana_Rilian wrote: »Just so you guys know, if this is implemented and they give rewards for story dungeons i'll never queue again.
Why be stuck with a bunch of randoms when i can solo?
you guys will start to slowly kill the group content with this.
When will we cry for story mode trials?
I think this is mistaken. Why hasn’t normal dungeons killed veteran? I can get basically the same loot for less trouble. In fact, I literally can’t remember the last time I ran a dungeon because I wanted a piece of gear. I still just run ebon alkosh and have never upgraded. Yet I’m still running vet dungeons.
My point is there is a healthy population seeking challenge rather than seeking the easiest version to get the rewards.
And the whole precept is that it will be absent the rewards.