ZOS! 1 billion+ GOLD LAUNDERING !! - (it was, now 1.25 billion+) please prioritize it.

idk

Goregrinder wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I totally agree..

I also agree that it should be the same who motivates these types of actions by looking the other way.

Now @Goregrinder I think you are stopping me to do something written in TOS .



Also you are acting against community rules by directly pointing to "me" where I show no @ID or anything else.

You cannot do that sir.

It says if you discover....which means you have evidence of something.

Of course and that evidence can be a little has this peculiar thing happened. Much of the exploits players have abused are pretty obvious and the continued use of them is pretty obvious as well. Only an idiot would not recognize it and pretty sure we do not have some of those. So pretty much most players that have gotten themselves banned deserved it. Good riddance to such foul creatures.

VaranisArano

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I totally agree..

I also agree that it should be the same who motivates these types of actions by looking the other way.

Now Goregrinder I think you are stopping me to do something written in TOS .



Also you are acting against community rules by directly pointing to "me" where I show no @ID or anything else.

You cannot do that sir.

It says if you discover....which means you have evidence of something.

I have no other words. thank you kindly. I wish you have a good journey on Tamriel.

WTB evidence PC EU

Yep np, evidence goes a long way. Physical evidence.

I find it extremely funny that you are still going on about players needing hard evidence in order to report their suspicions to ZOS, when ZOS already took the reports, investigated then, and took the appropriate actions, thanking the players who reported it.

Clearly, ZOS was just fine with the reports that were made, even though those reports didn't contain proof or physical evidence of TOS-breaking activity.

Yeah if ZOS takes action against the reported, the reporter should not be punished, which is the case here. But falsy accusing someone is a pretty big deal, or am I wrong on that? If not, I guess I will start reporting every single player I see, and call the police on everyone I see and report that they al robbed a bank.

I know there's icy weather around, so be careful with your arguments on that slippery slope there...

Use your common sense, good judgment, and consider that we're playing ESO - we operate by the TOS and the Code of Conduct, not however you want to apply this to your real world ideals.

Do note the language in the Code of Conduct (my bolding for emphasis):
2.8 Improper use the in game support or complaint buttons or making false reports to ZeniMax staff members is forbidden. You may not intentionally submit misinformation or abuse the help system in any ZeniMax Service.

Also note that according to the TOS:
"In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;"

In short, the Code of Conduct makes it crystal clear that your faux threat to report every single player you see would be in violation, but that good faith reports that turns out to be mistaken would not be.

Just use your common sense. If you feel compelled to wait until you have hard, physical evidence, that's your prerogative. As we've seen on this thread and in the Code of Conduct, ZOS does not hold player reports to that strict of a standard - which makes perfect sense because ZOS is the one with the hard data and server side proof to do the actual investigating for many of the exploits, cheats, cracks, and glitches we're required to report. They want players to make good faith reports so they can be the ones to investigate, often with tools that no players has access to.

Just, uh, it should go without saying to also use your common sense, good judgment, and knowledge of your country's laws when it comes to dealing with making reports to the police. Real world rules =/= ESO rules.

deleted008293

Suggestion...

What if trade amount (in gold) and quantity (in individual items) will be tied up to CP amount of a player?

If you are lets say under 160cp then you should be limited to a certain number of trades per account per week and up to a certain max value of gold.

So lets say up to 160CP you can trade (sell) items worth no more than 200k. and no more than 10 individual trades per week.
160-200CP = 300k up to 20 trades per week
200-300 = 500k = 30 trades per week
etc

VaranisArano

nordmarian wrote: »

Suggestion...

What if trade amount (in gold) and quantity (in individual items) will be tied up to CP amount of a player?

If you are lets say under 160cp then you should be limited to a certain number of trades per account per week and up to a certain max value of gold.

So lets say up to 160CP you can trade (sell) items worth no more than 200k. and no more than 10 individual trades per week.
160-200CP = 300k up to 20 trades per week
200-300 = 500k = 30 trades per week
etc

I'm not sure how that's a solution to what happened in this thread? Under the current system, you get 30 slots per trade guild and can make as many sales as you want providing things actually sell. Personal trades and COD, which weren't impacted as far as we know, are unlimited.

That's beneficial for players of all levels who use the trading guilds properly. I don't see the point of severely restricting what low level/low CP players can buy and sell each week just because some bad actors chose to break the TOS.

I've seen the level-limited trades work okay in games like Warframe, but Warframe also has a lot of level-limited items (and the limit is much more generous and per day). In contrast, ESO opens up all items once you pass CP 160 and encourages players to make sales in order to free up their trading slots.

deleted008293

By preventing a bunch of alt accounts to occuppy too many spots in a trade guild or in several top tier guilds? Was just an idea anyway. Idea was that forcing alts to actually level up their cp to a certain level might decrease bots and stuffs like above.

Also p2p trade or mails might require a bit of attention too perhaps?

KyraCROgnon

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

KyraCROgnon wrote: »

The only legit case i've seen of stuff being sold overpriced at a guild trader was when we were helping building the guild hall, buying overpriced white item to give the house decorator the gold to mass buy writs / stations . But we were nowhere that price range...

What was the reason that you couldn't just open a trade with the person and give them the gold? Why waste gobs of it on the Guild Store fee?

in that case was mostly so that it's recorded in the guild logs + was an in guild event "raise the market price on carrots ! Build a guild hall !" stuff, with the guy furnishing the house putting those items for any guildy feeling generous to buy. (direct donation of writs ofcourse also happened)

But what we are seeing here seems to me like laundering ill aquiered game money : either from hacked accounts or from scamming people pretennding to be selling crown and never delievering the items. Since ZoS will act on the hacked account or the actual scammer, if money is transfered before that happens then...

Cpt_Teemo

Juhasow wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I feel like now when ZoS investigated and it was confirmed there was in fact wrong doing people who wanted 1 year ban for someone who reported it should be punished for disencouraging people from doing right thing which is basically helping cheaters to cheat. A 1 year ban should be good. Dont You think @Goregrinder ?

I say just account wipe no ban needed, in WoT they don't truly ban your account if you want it back you have to comply to an account wipe

Heatnix90

nordmarian wrote: »

Suggestion...

What if trade amount (in gold) and quantity (in individual items) will be tied up to CP amount of a player?

If you are lets say under 160cp then you should be limited to a certain number of trades per account per week and up to a certain max value of gold.

So lets say up to 160CP you can trade (sell) items worth no more than 200k. and no more than 10 individual trades per week.
160-200CP = 300k up to 20 trades per week
200-300 = 500k = 30 trades per week
etc

This is dumb. Stop posting.

Goregrinder

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I feel like now when ZoS investigated and it was confirmed there was in fact wrong doing people who wanted 1 year ban for someone who reported it should be punished for disencouraging people from doing right thing which is basically helping cheaters to cheat. A 1 year ban should be good. Dont You think @Goregrinder ?

I say just account wipe no ban needed, in WoT they don't truly ban your account if you want it back you have to comply to an account wipe

Hey that's a compromise at least.

Goregrinder

Juhasow wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I feel like now when ZoS investigated and it was confirmed there was in fact wrong doing people who wanted 1 year ban for someone who reported it should be punished for disencouraging people from doing right thing which is basically helping cheaters to cheat. A 1 year ban should be good. Dont You think @Goregrinder ?

I don't think you understand. If you rightfully accuse someone, and they get convicted, you should not be punished. But in order to rightfully accuse someone, you need evidence. Like when you go to the police and hand them security footage, phone GPS records, and they collect the suspects DNA at the scene of the crime, etc. Your accusation is then based on a mountain of physical evidence. That is what it takes to rightfully accuse someone.

But if you just see someone listing a 10 year old PC for 20,000 on ebay or criagslist, and you just "don't like it", you should be punished for falsely accusing them if the local police do an investigation and found out that the dude you accused is simply a hustler trying to make a buck or two. Otherwise, why not just accuse everyone we see, you know...."just in case".....everyone is guilty unless they can 100% prove they are innocent right?

Inaya

Goregrinder wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I feel like now when ZoS investigated and it was confirmed there was in fact wrong doing people who wanted 1 year ban for someone who reported it should be punished for disencouraging people from doing right thing which is basically helping cheaters to cheat. A 1 year ban should be good. Dont You think @Goregrinder ?

I don't think you understand. If you rightfully accuse someone, and they get convicted, you should not be punished. But in order to rightfully accuse someone, you need evidence. Like when you go to the police and hand them security footage, phone GPS records, and they collect the suspects DNA at the scene of the crime, etc. Your accusation is then based on a mountain of physical evidence. That is what it takes to rightfully accuse someone.

But if you just see someone listing a 10 year old PC for 20,000 on ebay or criagslist, and you just "don't like it", you should be punished for falsely accusing them if the local police do an investigation and found out that the dude you accused is simply a hustler trying to make a buck or two. Otherwise, why not just accuse everyone we see, you know...."just in case".....everyone is guilty unless they can 100% prove they are innocent right?

No you don't need have proven wrongdoing yourself. If you have a suspicion you have every right to lay out your suspicions before the appropriate governing body for THEM to investigate. Everyone is innocent until proven otherwise but it is not our responsibility to have to prove it. The adage if you see something say something is a good one to practice.

I agree that IRL there should be punishment for false accusations such as *** and molestation when accusations are made maliciously.

DragonRacer

I feel somewhat confused about the current argument.

So, if I spot someone wearing a ski mask on their face peeping into my elderly neighbor's window late at night, I shouldn't report it to the police because I don't have any actual evidence of wrong-doing?

I mean, sure, it could be cold outside - hence the ski mask - and it could be a family friend that was asked to go check on Grandma and since he doesn't have a key, all he can do is look in the window, and maybe he's doing it late at night because he works a late shift and only just got off work at 11pm.

But ya really don't report suspicious activity like that? For real?

Goregrinder

Inaya wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I feel like now when ZoS investigated and it was confirmed there was in fact wrong doing people who wanted 1 year ban for someone who reported it should be punished for disencouraging people from doing right thing which is basically helping cheaters to cheat. A 1 year ban should be good. Dont You think @Goregrinder ?

I don't think you understand. If you rightfully accuse someone, and they get convicted, you should not be punished. But in order to rightfully accuse someone, you need evidence. Like when you go to the police and hand them security footage, phone GPS records, and they collect the suspects DNA at the scene of the crime, etc. Your accusation is then based on a mountain of physical evidence. That is what it takes to rightfully accuse someone.

But if you just see someone listing a 10 year old PC for 20,000 on ebay or criagslist, and you just "don't like it", you should be punished for falsely accusing them if the local police do an investigation and found out that the dude you accused is simply a hustler trying to make a buck or two. Otherwise, why not just accuse everyone we see, you know...."just in case".....everyone is guilty unless they can 100% prove they are innocent right?

No you don't need have proven wrongdoing yourself. If you have a suspicion you have every right to lay out your suspicions before the appropriate governing body for THEM to investigate. Everyone is innocent until proven otherwise but it is not our responsibility to have to prove it. The adage if you see something say something is a good one to practice.

I agree that IRL there should be punishment for false accusations such as *** and molestation when accusations are made maliciously.

You are right, I suspect you are involved in some illegal activities and goings on. What is one of your character names? Just so I can collect information before I report you to ZOS?

JKorr

Goregrinder wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I feel like now when ZoS investigated and it was confirmed there was in fact wrong doing people who wanted 1 year ban for someone who reported it should be punished for disencouraging people from doing right thing which is basically helping cheaters to cheat. A 1 year ban should be good. Dont You think @Goregrinder ?

I don't think you understand. If you rightfully accuse someone, and they get convicted, you should not be punished. But in order to rightfully accuse someone, you need evidence. Like when you go to the police and hand them security footage, phone GPS records, and they collect the suspects DNA at the scene of the crime, etc. Your accusation is then based on a mountain of physical evidence. That is what it takes to rightfully accuse someone.

But if you just see someone listing a 10 year old PC for 20,000 on ebay or criagslist, and you just "don't like it", you should be punished for falsely accusing them if the local police do an investigation and found out that the dude you accused is simply a hustler trying to make a buck or two. Otherwise, why not just accuse everyone we see, you know...."just in case".....everyone is guilty unless they can 100% prove they are innocent right?

No you don't need have proven wrongdoing yourself. If you have a suspicion you have every right to lay out your suspicions before the appropriate governing body for THEM to investigate. Everyone is innocent until proven otherwise but it is not our responsibility to have to prove it. The adage if you see something say something is a good one to practice.

I agree that IRL there should be punishment for false accusations such as *** and molestation when accusations are made maliciously.

You are right, I suspect you are involved in some illegal activities and goings on. What is one of your character names? Just so I can collect information before I report you to ZOS?

At any point, did anyone state they randomly checked on dubious/hinky/possibly illegal activities? With nothing done by the people involved? Or did people who noticed grapes, a green level maple staff, and other normal plentiful mats being posted for almost 10 million gold each decide that, possibly, just maybe this activity they noticed was maybe just possibly connected to something illegal as far as the ToS/Code of Conduct goes, so maybe it should be reported?

Big difference between seeing something not quite right going on, and going on a, please forgive the use of the term, "witch hunt" with no reasons behind it. You asking for someone's name to go out and look for random activity to accuse them is not the same thing as reporting the hinky guild sales that actually occurred.

Inaya

Goregrinder wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I feel like now when ZoS investigated and it was confirmed there was in fact wrong doing people who wanted 1 year ban for someone who reported it should be punished for disencouraging people from doing right thing which is basically helping cheaters to cheat. A 1 year ban should be good. Dont You think @Goregrinder ?

I don't think you understand. If you rightfully accuse someone, and they get convicted, you should not be punished. But in order to rightfully accuse someone, you need evidence. Like when you go to the police and hand them security footage, phone GPS records, and they collect the suspects DNA at the scene of the crime, etc. Your accusation is then based on a mountain of physical evidence. That is what it takes to rightfully accuse someone.

But if you just see someone listing a 10 year old PC for 20,000 on ebay or criagslist, and you just "don't like it", you should be punished for falsely accusing them if the local police do an investigation and found out that the dude you accused is simply a hustler trying to make a buck or two. Otherwise, why not just accuse everyone we see, you know...."just in case".....everyone is guilty unless they can 100% prove they are innocent right?

No you don't need have proven wrongdoing yourself. If you have a suspicion you have every right to lay out your suspicions before the appropriate governing body for THEM to investigate. Everyone is innocent until proven otherwise but it is not our responsibility to have to prove it. The adage if you see something say something is a good one to practice.

I agree that IRL there should be punishment for false accusations such as *** and molestation when accusations are made maliciously.

You are right, I suspect you are involved in some illegal activities and goings on. What is one of your character names? Just so I can collect information before I report you to ZOS?

Just the malicious style I was talking about. You see me breaking the code of conduct or botting or gold selling you go right ahead and report me. Until then stop trying to make your point with ludicrous requests.

Goregrinder

JKorr wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I feel like now when ZoS investigated and it was confirmed there was in fact wrong doing people who wanted 1 year ban for someone who reported it should be punished for disencouraging people from doing right thing which is basically helping cheaters to cheat. A 1 year ban should be good. Dont You think @Goregrinder ?

I don't think you understand. If you rightfully accuse someone, and they get convicted, you should not be punished. But in order to rightfully accuse someone, you need evidence. Like when you go to the police and hand them security footage, phone GPS records, and they collect the suspects DNA at the scene of the crime, etc. Your accusation is then based on a mountain of physical evidence. That is what it takes to rightfully accuse someone.

But if you just see someone listing a 10 year old PC for 20,000 on ebay or criagslist, and you just "don't like it", you should be punished for falsely accusing them if the local police do an investigation and found out that the dude you accused is simply a hustler trying to make a buck or two. Otherwise, why not just accuse everyone we see, you know...."just in case".....everyone is guilty unless they can 100% prove they are innocent right?

No you don't need have proven wrongdoing yourself. If you have a suspicion you have every right to lay out your suspicions before the appropriate governing body for THEM to investigate. Everyone is innocent until proven otherwise but it is not our responsibility to have to prove it. The adage if you see something say something is a good one to practice.

I agree that IRL there should be punishment for false accusations such as *** and molestation when accusations are made maliciously.

You are right, I suspect you are involved in some illegal activities and goings on. What is one of your character names? Just so I can collect information before I report you to ZOS?

At any point, did anyone state they randomly checked on dubious/hinky/possibly illegal activities? With nothing done by the people involved? Or did people who noticed grapes, a green level maple staff, and other normal plentiful mats being posted for almost 10 million gold each decide that, possibly, just maybe this activity they noticed was maybe just possibly connected to something illegal as far as the ToS/Code of Conduct goes, so maybe it should be reported?

Big difference between seeing something not quite right going on, and going on a, please forgive the use of the term, "witch hunt" with no reasons behind it. You asking for someone's name to go out and look for random activity to accuse them is not the same thing as reporting the hinky guild sales that actually occurred.

ANYTHING is possible....but without physical evidence, all other possibilities cannot be removed.

VaranisArano

Reminder to anyone making or dealing with random threats of reporting that the Code of Conduct says:

2.8 Improper use the in game support or complaint buttons or making false reports to ZeniMax staff members is forbidden. You may not intentionally submit misinformation or abuse the help system in any ZeniMax Service.

Nicky33

Goregrinder wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I feel like now when ZoS investigated and it was confirmed there was in fact wrong doing people who wanted 1 year ban for someone who reported it should be punished for disencouraging people from doing right thing which is basically helping cheaters to cheat. A 1 year ban should be good. Dont You think @Goregrinder ?

I don't think you understand. If you rightfully accuse someone, and they get convicted, you should not be punished. But in order to rightfully accuse someone, you need evidence. Like when you go to the police and hand them security footage, phone GPS records, and they collect the suspects DNA at the scene of the crime, etc. Your accusation is then based on a mountain of physical evidence. That is what it takes to rightfully accuse someone.

But if you just see someone listing a 10 year old PC for 20,000 on ebay or criagslist, and you just "don't like it", you should be punished for falsely accusing them if the local police do an investigation and found out that the dude you accused is simply a hustler trying to make a buck or two. Otherwise, why not just accuse everyone we see, you know...."just in case".....everyone is guilty unless they can 100% prove they are innocent right?

No you don't need have proven wrongdoing yourself. If you have a suspicion you have every right to lay out your suspicions before the appropriate governing body for THEM to investigate. Everyone is innocent until proven otherwise but it is not our responsibility to have to prove it. The adage if you see something say something is a good one to practice.

I agree that IRL there should be punishment for false accusations such as *** and molestation when accusations are made maliciously.

You are right, I suspect you are involved in some illegal activities and goings on. What is one of your character names? Just so I can collect information before I report you to ZOS?

You see someone selling drugs on your street - no need to report, you don't have physical evidence.
You see someone driving a car dangereosly, overspeeding next to the school - no need to report, you don't have phisical evidence.
You see someone stealiing a bag on a street - no need to report, you don't have an evidence.
You see someone cheating in virtual game - no need to report, as you didn't capture his screen, while he was playing.
Someone could think that a person, repeating one stupid thing over and over is stupid. But not me.

Goregrinder

Nicky33 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I feel like now when ZoS investigated and it was confirmed there was in fact wrong doing people who wanted 1 year ban for someone who reported it should be punished for disencouraging people from doing right thing which is basically helping cheaters to cheat. A 1 year ban should be good. Dont You think @Goregrinder ?

I don't think you understand. If you rightfully accuse someone, and they get convicted, you should not be punished. But in order to rightfully accuse someone, you need evidence. Like when you go to the police and hand them security footage, phone GPS records, and they collect the suspects DNA at the scene of the crime, etc. Your accusation is then based on a mountain of physical evidence. That is what it takes to rightfully accuse someone.

But if you just see someone listing a 10 year old PC for 20,000 on ebay or criagslist, and you just "don't like it", you should be punished for falsely accusing them if the local police do an investigation and found out that the dude you accused is simply a hustler trying to make a buck or two. Otherwise, why not just accuse everyone we see, you know...."just in case".....everyone is guilty unless they can 100% prove they are innocent right?

No you don't need have proven wrongdoing yourself. If you have a suspicion you have every right to lay out your suspicions before the appropriate governing body for THEM to investigate. Everyone is innocent until proven otherwise but it is not our responsibility to have to prove it. The adage if you see something say something is a good one to practice.

I agree that IRL there should be punishment for false accusations such as *** and molestation when accusations are made maliciously.

You are right, I suspect you are involved in some illegal activities and goings on. What is one of your character names? Just so I can collect information before I report you to ZOS?

You see someone selling drugs on your street - no need to report, you don't have physical evidence.
You see someone driving a car dangereosly, overspeeding next to the school - no need to report, you don't have phisical evidence.
You see someone stealiing a bag on a street - no need to report, you don't have an evidence.
You see someone cheating in virtual game - no need to report, as you didn't capture his screen, while he was playing.
Someone could think that a person, repeating one stupid thing over and over is stupid. But not me.

But I could tell people I saw it, whether I actually saw something or not. They'd have no choice but to believe me.

January1171

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Reminder to anyone making or dealing with random threats of reporting that the Code of Conduct says:

2.8 Improper use the in game support or complaint buttons or making false reports to ZeniMax staff members is forbidden. You may not intentionally submit misinformation or abuse the help system in any ZeniMax Service.

Boom.

A false report is when someone files a report knowing 100% it's not correct- not reporting a suspicion that you think is true, but turns out it's not after the proper investigation.

Goregrinder

January1171 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Reminder to anyone making or dealing with random threats of reporting that the Code of Conduct says:

2.8 Improper use the in game support or complaint buttons or making false reports to ZeniMax staff members is forbidden. You may not intentionally submit misinformation or abuse the help system in any ZeniMax Service.

Boom.

A false report is when someone files a report knowing 100% it's not correct- not reporting a suspicion that you think is true, but turns out it's not after the proper investigation.

Which would involve physical evidence to prove whether the report was false, or valid.

VaranisArano

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Reminder to anyone making or dealing with random threats of reporting that the Code of Conduct says:

2.8 Improper use the in game support or complaint buttons or making false reports to ZeniMax staff members is forbidden. You may not intentionally submit misinformation or abuse the help system in any ZeniMax Service.

Boom.

Yes. Note the word "intentionally". Now, please also apply it to the spurious threats you keep making in this thread regarding reporting people.

Its very hard to take your argument about "people should be severely punished for false reports, even for honest mistakes" seriously when you promptly turn around and threaten to falsely report people, which your own comments here prove to be no mistake but rather a deliberate false report if you followed through.

Sanguinor2

Goregrinder wrote: »

Which would involve physical evidence to prove whether the report was false, or valid.

But it would involve physical evidence from zos not from the Person that made the report. The Problem with your "but we Need physical evidence before we report" is that we as Players cannot get Access to the evidence required in the first place. We cannot get data from Zos, we do not see any numbers, we do not see the screen of the Player in Question and we cannot get any conversation, mail etc. the Player in Question may have had.
But Zos can. And that is why we can report something if we have enough suspicion that there might be something fishy going on, as was the case in the screenshots of the OP.

But again. We cannot get the physical evidence needed to convict someone, so what we can do is take a screenshot or have a Clip of something suspicious and sent it to Zos to investigate who then will be able to get the physical evidence necessary to either Show proof of someones innocence or declare them guilty.

If we were to follow your rules no one would be able to report anyone and everyone could do whatever they wished since we as Players cannot get the physical evidence you demand we give.

Take as example the good old days of cheat engine where People inexplicably got very high vma scores. Certainly seemed suspicious since These scores were much higher than anything else previously but since no one could actually Show proof of someone using cheat engine unless they hacked their System or got Access to Zos data I guess no one was actually doing it. Neveryoumind the ban waves and the purging of the leaderboards from cheated scores, obviously didnt happen since no one had any proof, thus all Reports were invalid.

Thrasher91604

I’d say a member of the Russian mafia.

daemonios

The troll. Do not feed it.

Goregrinder

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Which would involve physical evidence to prove whether the report was false, or valid.

But it would involve physical evidence from zos not from the Person that made the report. The Problem with your "but we Need physical evidence before we report" is that we as Players cannot get Access to the evidence required in the first place. We cannot get data from Zos, we do not see any numbers, we do not see the screen of the Player in Question and we cannot get any conversation, mail etc. the Player in Question may have had.
But Zos can. And that is why we can report something if we have enough suspicion that there might be something fishy going on, as was the case in the screenshots of the OP.

But again. We cannot get the physical evidence needed to convict someone, so what we can do is take a screenshot or have a Clip of something suspicious and sent it to Zos to investigate who then will be able to get the physical evidence necessary to either Show proof of someones innocence or declare them guilty.

If we were to follow your rules no one would be able to report anyone and everyone could do whatever they wished since we as Players cannot get the physical evidence you demand we give.

Take as example the good old days of cheat engine where People inexplicably got very high vma scores. Certainly seemed suspicious since These scores were much higher than anything else previously but since no one could actually Show proof of someone using cheat engine unless they hacked their System or got Access to Zos data I guess no one was actually doing it. Neveryoumind the ban waves and the purging of the leaderboards from cheated scores, obviously didnt happen since no one had any proof, thus all Reports were invalid.

Yet the OP is providing Trader prices as physical evidence of illegal activities.

ZonasArch

Goregrinder wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I feel like now when ZoS investigated and it was confirmed there was in fact wrong doing people who wanted 1 year ban for someone who reported it should be punished for disencouraging people from doing right thing which is basically helping cheaters to cheat. A 1 year ban should be good. Dont You think @Goregrinder ?

I don't think you understand. If you rightfully accuse someone, and they get convicted, you should not be punished. But in order to rightfully accuse someone, you need evidence. Like when you go to the police and hand them security footage, phone GPS records, and they collect the suspects DNA at the scene of the crime, etc. Your accusation is then based on a mountain of physical evidence. That is what it takes to rightfully accuse someone.

But if you just see someone listing a 10 year old PC for 20,000 on ebay or criagslist, and you just "don't like it", you should be punished for falsely accusing them if the local police do an investigation and found out that the dude you accused is simply a hustler trying to make a buck or two. Otherwise, why not just accuse everyone we see, you know...."just in case".....everyone is guilty unless they can 100% prove they are innocent right?

So if you get robbed you won't call the police before getting security footage to let them know "for sure" you got robbed?

Haha hahaha hahahaha haha ahh... Good one!

Sanguinor2

Goregrinder wrote: »

Yet the OP is providing Trader prices as physical evidence of illegal activities.

And yet you dismissed it earlier as Nothing worth mentioning and not being enough evidence to Show anything going on beyond someone listing stuff for whatever Price they want. And now it suddenly is physical evidence again? My my how fickle the human mind can be.

Goregrinder

ZonasArch wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

And, i have yet to see anything legitimate sell for more than 2 or 3 million. And those are a few certain rare items. It would not take much to stop these stupid high sales. Or ban people based on these sales until they make their case they are a legitimate player.

LOL do you hear yourself? In civilized societies, the burden of proof is on the accusers. Why should some random player have to prove their innocence? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

This is exactly the kind of behaviour I've seen in this thread, and I'm right to condemn it. Now the mob is coming after me:

It is appropriate for a player to bring these concerned to Zos. It is up to Zos to look into it and see if they can find any wrong doing that is actionable. Petty bickering about it in the forums is meaningless as it serves no purpose. Well, none except to keep this thread active.

I feel like if ZOS investigates, finds no wrong doing, than the accuser should be punished for false accusations. A 1-year ban should be good for first time offenders.

I feel like now when ZoS investigated and it was confirmed there was in fact wrong doing people who wanted 1 year ban for someone who reported it should be punished for disencouraging people from doing right thing which is basically helping cheaters to cheat. A 1 year ban should be good. Dont You think @Goregrinder ?

I don't think you understand. If you rightfully accuse someone, and they get convicted, you should not be punished. But in order to rightfully accuse someone, you need evidence. Like when you go to the police and hand them security footage, phone GPS records, and they collect the suspects DNA at the scene of the crime, etc. Your accusation is then based on a mountain of physical evidence. That is what it takes to rightfully accuse someone.

But if you just see someone listing a 10 year old PC for 20,000 on ebay or criagslist, and you just "don't like it", you should be punished for falsely accusing them if the local police do an investigation and found out that the dude you accused is simply a hustler trying to make a buck or two. Otherwise, why not just accuse everyone we see, you know...."just in case".....everyone is guilty unless they can 100% prove they are innocent right?

So if you get robbed you won't call the police before getting security footage to let them know "for sure" you got robbed?

Haha hahaha hahahaha haha ahh... Good one!

I could as easily call them and tell them I got robbed, whether I actually did or not, and without any evidence available to dispute it that I was robbed, they would be forced to file a report and take my statement, right?

Goregrinder

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Yet the OP is providing Trader prices as physical evidence of illegal activities.

And yet you dismissed it earlier as Nothing worth mentioning and not being enough evidence to Show anything going on beyond someone listing stuff for whatever Price they want. And now it suddenly is physical evidence again? My my how fickle the human mind can be.

By itself, it is just evidence of someone trying to sell items for millions of gold, which is not against any rules.