overland is to easy

redspecter23

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Spoiler Alert!

Overland is supposed to be easy. It's there to get beginners hooked and satisfy a large casual playerbase. It may be easy for you, but do try to understand that there are many, MANY players who struggle in overland content. That content is not designed for you. Play it if you want, but understand that it is not there to challenge you. That's what endgame is for.

This is the inevitable reply and in my opinion wrong.

First off, its and opinion. It is nowhere written that overland is only for the causal player base.

Why must all of the overland content be only suitable for the casual player base?

Its a counter intuitive and flawed argument. Why continuously develop content that is only suitable for new causal players, when there is already plenty to keep them busy. What happens when they become experienced? If Zos had sense they would provide overland for vet players too as not everyone is able to get into groups for vet dungeons or likes pvp. And you as part of the player community would recognise that some of your fellows are not being catered for and would concede that this is a shortfall in the game.

Why was it challenging for a number of years before One Tamriel?

Also you have agreed with the OP. You are saying that overland is too easy and does not cater for us. Therefore unlike all other content which has normal mode, hard and vet modes overland does not . Therefore this content is not catering for customers who are paying for it.

There is nothing wrong whatsoever with players who want difficult overland, asking for it.

You're right about pretty much everything. Yes, I agree overland content is too easy, at least from my own personal point of view. I actually like being able to obliterate some things in game. However, it is absolutely not too easy for everyone. The idea posted above about having multiple instances with differing difficulty is a reasonable compromise at least in theory. If the difficulty is raised, but the rewards are not, I would think it would turn into a ghost town very quickly. If the rewards are also raised, you would just see those same players that can't handle standard overland migrating to the harder version because of "shinies". You see this issue in veteran dungeons constantly. Players with no business being there still going in and losing and dragging the group down because they want a reward they aren't capable of achieving.

If ZOS can find a way to have a vet toggle on overland and avoid the issues I've mentioned, I'm not against the idea. I just don't see how it would work out well overall.

idk

It is great OP likes hard content. However an MMORPG that is designed and intended to cast a wide net will not have overland that is challenging. It is more based on story lines. Pretty sure this is why OP did not mention a current major MMORPG title that has a challenging overland.

ESO. like the other current major titles that are PvE based, has a tiered difficulty with overland/questing being the entry level and HM trials being the most challenging and many levels in between.

Even before 1T overland was a total joke as far as difficulty except for the very short period of time we were leveling and only then if a player was questing in a much higher level zone than their character. As a result the suggestion to return to scaled zones is completely pointless and should not be done. Pretty sure it will not be done.

haelene

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

First off, its and opinion. It is nowhere written that overland is only for the causal player base.

Why must all of the overland content be only suitable for the casual player base?

The market says so - economics says so. There are only so many resources at ZOS' disposal and in the end, ZOS needs to "cater" it's content to the most amount of people at once while using the least amount of resources.That means "catering" to the people who pay the most and are larger in number. In other words - casuals.

Without the casual market mmo's as large as this one die - period. They cannot sustain themselves otherwise because the hardcore players tear through content faster (meaning they want more sooner), spends less money overall, and are rarer.

On top of that - this in a RPG - which tends to draw in people who enjoy lore and narrative who are mostly casual's and rp'ers.

We already know what happens when overland caters to it's hardcore fanbase. The zone is a ghost town.

buttaface

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

why can a lvl 10 easily do overland in craglorn?

Without lots of CP, which makes them effectively NOT lvl 10, they can't, and you can't. Spare the hyperbole.

There are plenty of tougher games on the market, unlike ESO, they aren't based on a popular, casual solo RPG.

What ESO needs is to reduce exp caves and early crutching on things like pets or PLing. It's not that the base content is too easy, it's that the game doesn't adequately teach the newbies to play it.

JumpmanLane

You could always PvP...the mobs in that game are ever-evolving and some of them cuss a lot lol.

redgreensunset

You know what? From now on, for every one of these threads started I see, I'm going to begin one asking to get trials and vet dungeons and every piece of hard content made easier so everyone can do them.

martinhpb16_ESO

haelene wrote: »

The market says so - economics says so.

Then why do we have forums? Because customers also say so and that's why Zos often respond to their customers via the forums not just via stats. Also what do we know about the economics? We have no access to the data therefore you cannot assume that there is not some loss from not providing overland content for vet players.

haelene wrote: »

There are only so many resources at ZOS' disposal and in the end, ZOS needs to "cater" it's content to the most amount of people at once while using the least amount of resources.That means "catering" to the people who pay the most and are larger in number. In other words - casuals.

Going on your reasoning then why bother providing vet dungeons at all? ZOS has been business minded enough to not only cater for the people who play the most. If your reasoning is true then this game should be for casuals only. Is that because this is your playstyle? [/quote]

haelene wrote: »

Without the casual market mmo's as large as this one die - period. They cannot sustain themselves otherwise because the hardcore players tear through content faster (meaning they want more sooner), spends less money overall, and are rarer.

On top of that - this in a RPG - which tends to draw in people who enjoy lore and narrative who are mostly casual's and rp'ers.

We already know what happens when overland caters to it's hardcore fanbase. The zone is a ghost town.

Before ESO I played another MMO for 7 years. In the end it was taken over by a large corporation. The ethos shifted away from catering for a large player base to only a casual player base. End game raiding and pvp development stopped. Within two years they had closed many servers because of player exodus and the game was eventually sold off. The game is still going but nothing like it was.

I dont think your picture stacks up. it would be a foolhardy enterprise to only cater for one play style even if it was the majority.

I'm not sure why you would be adverse to overland content that vets would enjoy?

ketsparrowhawk

I think an easy solution to this would be to give us a CP on/off toggle that doesn't cost anything.

I mainly do non-CP PVP, and recently I've been disabling CP on all my characters. I do quests and explore the overworld while waiting in queue. I find that disabling CP adds just the right amount of difficulty. I'm still pretty OP.. can still solo world bosses etc, but it's definitely more work and I have to be much more mindful about resources, playing defensively, etc.

Problem is, of course, anytime I want to use my CP, I have to spend gold to re-allocate them, then more gold to un-allocate them again if I want to. A simple on/off toggle would be nice.

Bealeb319

The game is not designed to meet only your needs.

pod88kk

Overland is fine the way it is

haelene

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

The market says so - economics says so.

Then why do we have forums? Because customers also say so and that's why Zos often respond to their customers via the forums not just via stats. Also what do we know about the economics? We have no access to the data therefore you cannot assume that there is not some loss from not providing overland content for vet players.

haelene wrote: »

There are only so many resources at ZOS' disposal and in the end, ZOS needs to "cater" it's content to the most amount of people at once while using the least amount of resources.That means "catering" to the people who pay the most and are larger in number. In other words - casuals.

Going on your reasoning then why bother providing vet dungeons at all? ZOS has been business minded enough to not only cater for the people who play the most. If your reasoning is true then this game should be for casuals only. Is that because this is your playstyle?

I'm not saying it's only for casuals - you are. I'm saying most of the content should cater to most of the players. I never said all of it.

My playstyle is somewhere in the middle. I like a challenge, but sometimes i just want to slaughter massive amounts of things easily. I love trials, but I also love questing. I think difficulty has it's place, but I don't want boss level enemies in hordes making my story progression a chore. Frankly - my preferred play style depends on my mood. Some might consider me hardcore because I play a metric fuckton and venture into end game content. Some would assume I'm casual because I don't want everything to be dark souls. That's besides the point though - my play style doesn't matter in the scope of things.

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Without the casual market mmo's as large as this one die - period. They cannot sustain themselves otherwise because the hardcore players tear through content faster (meaning they want more sooner), spends less money overall, and are rarer.

On top of that - this in a RPG - which tends to draw in people who enjoy lore and narrative who are mostly casual's and rp'ers.

We already know what happens when overland caters to it's hardcore fanbase. The zone is a ghost town.

Before ESO I played another MMO for 7 years. In the end it was taken over by a large corporation. The ethos shifted away from catering for a large player base to only a casual player base. End game raiding and pvp development stopped. Within two years they had closed many servers because of player exodus and the game was eventually sold off. The game is still going but nothing like it was.

I dont think your picture stacks up. it would be a foolhardy enterprise to only cater for one play style even if it was the majority.

I'm not sure why you would be adverse to overland content that vets would enjoy?

The game you mentioned survived because it adapted and changed - so I'm not sure why you think that's a "gotcha" moment? Games that continue to cater only to end game raiding and pvp (usually the more hardcore players) will fail.

Again, I never said we should cater only to one playstyle - I'm saying it should be proportionate. Right now, it is. This is an mmo - not everyone will enjoy every piece of content.

I'm not adverse to an overland for vets as long as it doesn't have any additional rewards and it doesn't effect the performance of the regular player. Problem is - in the game's current state it will absolutely effect performance and most people calling for challenge want extra rewards (because it's not actually about challenge, it's about ego).

Edit : Formatting.

martinhpb16_ESO

Bealeb319 wrote: »

The game is not designed to meet only your needs.

That is not what the OP is suggesting.

He is stating clearly that the game is not catering for his needs. He is a customer, these are forums he is allowed to say that.

It is interesting how quickly whenever this point is raised certain people tell posters that their experience is wrong, that they are being selfish, that they are not speaking for the majority.

martinhpb16_ESO

haelene wrote: »

The game you mentioned survived because it adapted and changed - so I'm not sure why you think that's a "gotcha" moment? Games that continue to cater only to end game raiding and pvp (usually the more hardcore players) will fail.

Because you said that economics is the measure of success.

Who is asking for the game only to cater for hardcore players?

Games that continue to cater to the casual market will fail

Why cannot overland also cater for vet players?

haelene

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

The game you mentioned survived because it adapted and changed - so I'm not sure why you think that's a "gotcha" moment? Games that continue to cater only to end game raiding and pvp (usually the more hardcore players) will fail.

Because you said that economics is the measure of success.

Who is asking for the game only to cater for hardcore players?

Games that continue to cater to the casual market will fail

Why cannot overland also cater for vet players?

1 : If the game had stayed course it would be gone. That's an economic failure, and so yes, a failure. But changing course and focusing on casuals it survives. That's a success - a win from the business perspective!

2 : MMO's that cater to the casual market predominantly will literally do the opposite of fail. They will continue to exist. Often times they will even grow and thrive. That means success. Look no further than ESO as an example. One Tamriel catered to casuals and it brought the game back from the dead. Craglorn is another example.

3 : I already answered this. You ignored it. I'm not going to repeat it.

Honestly, at this point I don't think you're willing to have this discussion in good faith as you've been misrepresenting my points and ignoring others - so this will be my last response to you.

Dusk_Coven

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

If you like hard content, do the hard content.

Not every piece of content in this game needs to cater to you. It's an mmo - there are other people playing, and not everyone plays to be challenged.

Not every piece of overland content needs to cater to people who like easy content. Double standards comes to mind

Except that harder content exists but no one wants to touch it except in overwhelming numbers to farm it for rewards. No shortage of examples and they have already been posted in this and previous threads.
Hypocrisy comes to mind.

Nestor

I agree, Overland is easy content.

Then I watch a large proportion of other players spend minutes fighting overland mobs.

Then I go find a Trial or Vet Dungeon to work up a sweat.

imno007b14_ESO

Great idea! After nerfing aoe and sustain and whatever else to near uselessness, now's the perfect time for them to start looking at ways to make the game's content more difficult.

Darkenarlol

i've cleared lower craglorn at VR 8-9

and cleared all upper crag at vr12 when it was vr16

and soloed most vet HMs and...you know did a lot of

this kind of stuff


yet i think current overland is totally ok and even can

be challenging for fresh players with no gear no CP no

mechanics knowledge and no hundreds of hours spended

at training dummy


we have all sorts of content from easiest to near impossible

and i find it great because you can have the level of challenge

that you actually want to have


you find overland too easy? then maybe you should play

challenging content? start from COA2HM solo

or go vBRP timerun/nodeath with friends or you know...godslayer

myskyrim26

This is a TES game. Any overland content MUST be easy to explore. You want something hard? Go do your arenas, vet dungeons, tirals and PVP. No enough hard? Go do vet dungeons solo. Go do trials solo.

fiender66

Maybe I am the dumbest player, but I do not find the world bosses easy, in any way. Trials also are engaging.
True, most of the public dungeons are not so hard to solo, provided a correct set and some food boost.
The content of the regular overland and delves is clearly meant to advance a toon, giving (hopefully) some narrative amusement in the meantime. Of course the philosophy of ESO in different from that of any FPS, but I would not complain about that.

MasterSpatula

Vhozek wrote: »

"people struggle with the current overland"

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

And there it is. The inevitable example of the "if I don't share your experience, your experiences aren't valid" mentality. Every one of these threads eventually draws such condescension sooner or later.

Cue the "It's not possible to get less than 35K dps" crowd any minute.

Dusk_Coven

fiender66 wrote: »

The content of the regular overland and delves is clearly meant to advance a toon, giving (hopefully) some narrative amusement in the meantime. Of course the philosophy of ESO in different from that of any FPS, but I would not complain about that.

For overland specifically, my impression is that the fights there are just to break up the tedium of an otherwise empty landscape, as well as to flavour-populate various camps instead of zoning you to a map for the camp.
In other words, it's popcorn / trash. Not meant to take up your time.

bmnoble

Overland is for people learning the game and those just there for the story, might surprise you but there are plenty of players that have no interest in the end game at all and play the game as a solo experience doing the quests in overland.

Its easy because those players are not here for challenging combat but the story, the rest of the game is catered towards players that want more challenging experiences, Group Delves/Group Dungeons/Maelstrom Arena/Group Arena's/Trials/Even PVP.


Think about this how many posts were there recently of players asking for help beating the story Dragon bosses in the various Elsweyr content that released this year, even high level players you see running around the zones are not that proficient in the games combat because they prefer the overland content.


Overland is easy because its not about the combat its about the quests/exploration, I hate to break it to you but not everyone enjoys the combat in games and would rather just get it over with as quick as possible and get back to what they were doing.


If there was enough demand for VET overland they would have done it long ago, there is no money in it for ZOS.


Overland is the one true easy part of the game, if you want challenge find it in any other part of the game or think about moving on to a new game.

SeaGtGruff

haelene wrote: »

New players don't have gear, don't know to eat food,

I tried to eat some food once, but I ended up wearing it. Clothes make the man, and apparently my clothing is made of food:

https://lh3.ggpht.com/_hVfE2qcyzXU/TQVTCZbQDFI/AAAAAAAABbE/IVzQKmCV1xA/s800/food-clothes-4.jpg

On a serious note, when I started out I thought it was okay to eat some food, then eat some different food, then have a drink, then have a different drink, and all their awesome buffs would be in effect concurrently. Because that would make sense.

martinhpb16_ESO

bmnoble wrote: »

Overland is for people learning the game and those just there for the story, might surprise you but there are plenty of players that have no interest in the end game at all and play the game as a solo experience doing the quests in overland.

Its easy because those players are not here for challenging combat but the story, the rest of the game is catered towards players that want more challenging experiences, Group Delves/Group Dungeons/Maelstrom Arena/Group Arena's/Trials/Even PVP.
.

Overland should be for everyone not those just learning the game but also those that like a challenge with their story, might surpirse you but there are plenty of players that have an interest in an overland challenge and play the game as a solo experience doing the quests overland

Its too easy because those players are here for challenging combat and the story, the rest of the game is catered towards players that want group challenging experiences. Group Delves/Group Dungeons/Group Arena's/Trials/Even PVP.

And for the record group delves are totally possible solo. Would be nice if there was a way to make them group again

Dusk_Coven

bmnoble wrote: »

Its easy because those players are not here for challenging combat but the story, the rest of the game is catered towards players that want more challenging experiences, Group Delves/Group Dungeons/Maelstrom Arena/Group Arena's/Trials/Even PVP.

And even in this content, when it's hard, people naturally gravitate to finding ways to make it EASY. Tactics, positioning, boss placement, builds -- anything to get it done faster better safer.

No, people don't really want "hard". They want to OVERCOME. Any requests for "hard" is really saying "make it harder, but not so hard that I can't do it". As soon as they FAIL, they complain that it's broken and cry for a nerf -- just look at the Fire Monk in Southern Elsweyr.

This is why people who ask for harder XYZ don't just immediately go and test themselves in content where they'd have a good chance of failing. They just pretend it doesn't exist.

FierceSam

Soloing WB’s at level 10 with crap gear and no CP?

If you are genuinely doing that, grats. Cos that’s overland content and it’s not easy.

Trash mobs or Alit? They will always be easy for everyone to kill. That is their function.

I suspect if anyone was dumb enough to create an overland zone that would provide you with the challenge you seek, it would either be the wasteland that Craglorn was back in the day, or it would be rebranded as a Trial zone to at least encourage some other players to join you. It would not be the popular nirvana you imagine.

There’s a reason ZOS provide top level content. It’s to keep top players interested (for a relatively short period), but more importantly it’s to provide the vast majority of players with something to aim for. And most of them will never get there, but they will enjoy their journey as they try.

martinhpb16_ESO

bmnoble wrote: »

Overland is easy because its not about the combat its about the quests/exploration, I hate to break it to you but not everyone enjoys the combat in games and would rather just get it over with as quick as possible and get back to what they were doing.

Then why is there combat? I hate it to break it to you but some people do enjoy combat in games and would rather not get through it quickly and instead would like to feel a sense of adventure and achievement that justifies the story they are reading.

See what i'm saying here? We can all say that some people this and that, but at the moment the easy content only caters for one style of player. See what i am saying?

I miss overland and for some of us it got so easy its boring. We need choice to cater for more people.

El_Borracho

The last thing I want is the overland content to be more of a grind when I am grinding alternate characters. I'm sure others have said this, but you have the ability to make it harder all by yourself. Remove all CP. Wear all white non-set armor and weapons.

Dusk_Coven

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Overland should be for everyone not those just learning the game but also those that like a challenge with their story

So everything must cater to everyone?
Let's just forget character progression and dumb everything down. Vet hardmode dungeons for newbs too?

Different content for different stages of character progression. That's why you have progression both in character and content -- to clearly show you that you have advanced and can move on to harder challenges.
Without comparison advancement is invisible.

What's next? Tutorials should be harder?