Guild dues just skyrocketed

Tandor

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Thanks. I can tell you where my comment came from. If traders have to pay inflated bids and dues, then that will be reflected in the prices they charge. An inflated trading gold sink is funded out of inflated prices, that was my point.

That's exactly where you're wrong, and I really hope you don't mind me saying so, frank and blunt.
Let's imagine you need more gold to place your bid (or w/e reason you may need gold for, actually).
You have several options here : farm stuff to sell, farm mobs for gold, farm repeatable quests for gold & stuff to sell, get donations from your teammates, sell your inventory. All those options can be strictly classified into two categories : those who transfer gold, and those who create gold.
- If you go farm corn flowers and sell them to another player, you haven't created any gold, you've taken someone else's gold.
- If you go farm a public dungeon for a couple of hours, collect the gold and vendor the looted stuff, you've created gold.
- If you do your daily crafting writs on all your characters instead of your usual crafter only, you've created gold. More gold than on your usual crafter only.

So no, the increased bids aren't necessarily financed by higher prices, since you have the option to create it yourself by farming gold ingame.

Farming gold all by yourself without trading is easy in ESO. It's, in my opinion, a huge plus for this game. It's beginner friendly, and solo-player friendly, it's a very valuable option for those who don't want to trade, and an additional option for those who trade to make more gold.
But the counterpart of gold being created so easily (ans therefore in huge quantities) is that you need a huge gold sink somewhere in the game of more or less equal quantity, else gold would lose all its value. Trader bids are not the only gold sink in the game (golden vendor, luxury vendor, gear repairs, stables, etc... all are gold sinks too) but they are a very significant one. They don't send the traded goods' value into the void (that's only transferred gold, not created gold), they send player-created gold into the void.

Differentiating between created currency and transferred currency is essential to understanding any economy (including ESO's for that matter), and that's what makes your statement inherently, factually wrong. And I really hope you don't mind me trying to explain... I really do.

EDIT : for the clarity of the demonstration, I left out one component that seems to be more significant than we think : crown sellers. There seems to be a significant amount of gold within bids currently coming from crown sellers. I think it's a huge problem because it's unfair for guilds that compete with ingame mechanics, but that's the moral point of view. From an economical point of view, that's an increase of the gold sink, and therefore a bonus for the game as a whole. And another, separate, additional reason why your statement (increased bids are financed by higer trading prices) is inherently wrong...

I don't mind in the slightest your being frank and blunt, nor do I mind in the least being proved wrong - I would certainly never claim always to be right !! However, the two lines I've bolded seem to be contradictory, and as a basic trading principle then if a trader's costs are unreasonably high then the likelihood is that that will be reflected in the prices charged. They may not have to be, they may not always be, but the likelihood is that they generally will be. So I agree with the first bolded quote, but not the second one !

Pashen

Loves_guars wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

What system you on where they’re asking that much? 65k is ridiculous to begin with. I’m in a couple trading giilds on PS4 NA and they’re asking 15-20k weekly.

Yes sorry, I meant 15k dues, (360k sales without dues). I know it's not much for rich players, but my point is that casuals get excluded from the system when they should be included to shorten the breach between them and rich players.

To answer every one, same, I think this is nonsensical, in the way that you need weekly money to stay competitive. You say "casual don't need main city trader" but actually yes, because, in this way, the distance between poor and rich widens more and more.

I have the feeling this is the same trade guild I am in . Perhaps, not only the 15k dues but 15k dues to be paid by only the lower tiers of the guild, meaning those that make 360k a week, do not pay the 15k a week. I could do this but then I would have no time to do anything else but deal with the sales of items. The Trade guild has had problems getting a good trader. so my sales have tanked while they are figuring out the system. Went from traders in Wayrest to out in the boonies and nowhere.

x4livin

Suddenly 2 of my long standing trading guilds don't have traders. 1 of them, this is the second time in 3 weeks. I'm not sure if they will go up on the dues or just give up on having a trader.

VaranisArano

Tandor wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Guess where that comes from, if not from inflated prices!

I realize this may confuse you a bit, Tandor, so I'll speak slowly.

I didn't bother to read beyond that. If you want to have a sensible discussion then cut out the immature insults which are wholly unworthy of you and start again.

Tandor, you write well, you often express sensible points of view, and opinions, and I often agree with you - and even when I don't, I still respect you because you're pleasant to read and you make sense.

I was literally stunned when I realized that the above statement "Guess where that comes from, if not from inflated prices!" came from you.

starkerealm may have started his post in a risky way but he's genuine, and he's right. There's something fundamental that you haven't understood (and that's a fact, not an opinion) and he really took the time to explain it nicely and in details. There's nothing condescending in that.
Would you please consider reading his post ... ?

Thanks. I can tell you where my comment came from. If traders have to pay inflated bids and dues, then that will be reflected in the prices they charge. An inflated trading gold sink is funded out of inflated prices, that was my point.

Not really.

Supply and demand has a much greater impact on prices, because that determines what items will actually sell for.

A player who raises prices to keep up their sales requirement is going to end up selling less when they raise their prices too high beyond what players will pay. So there's no benefit to inflating prices to meet a goal. (Prices can be inflated via other means, like price manipulation or to meet sudden bursts of demand, but players can't just charge more for items with a fairly stable supply and demand to make more money.)

So what we'd really expect to see, if more players were pushing themselves to meet higher requirements, is a greater supply of items as players sought more items to sell, resulting in an overall price drop.

Instead, supply isn't increasing and prices arent dropping. I expect what's happening is that most players can find a guild where they don't have to push themselves to make requirements, which is one reason we haven't seen a supply rise/price drop and instead we've seen people leaving guilds where they would be pushing themselves harder than they like in favor of guilds where they don't have to. That means most active traders are still selling about what they usually would, with or without increased requirements, just possibly from different guilds. There might even be some temporary drop in the supply as players transition to guilds that suit them better - a possible explanation for some rising prices. As we've seen, its relatively easy for players to find guilds who fit their needs, so its unlikely that we'll see many players who actively trade actually get priced out of guilds by


The trading gold sink is increasing for the same reason: a mostly static supply of guild traders and a hugely increased competition for that static supply via multibidding. The winning bids that go into the gold sink are increasing due to that demand. It doesnt help that, as I described earlier, the refunds + weekly profit allow guilds to gradually increase their bids over time to put greater and greater pressure on the competition, so guilds feel the pressure to grow their war chest and increase the gold sink of their winning bid. As stated, this sucks gold out of the trading economy into bids, but doesn't actually remove it like a gold sink would. If that gold ever starts coming back into the trading economy, things get interesting, probably in a bad way.


Thing is, I think its problematic to blame the guild trader system as a whole for these recent issues. We can thank ZOS for creating the upheaval with multibidding, something that most trading guilds didnt want implemented the way it was.

Whether we like it or not, this is what ZOS more or less intended to happen to the economy. I mean, this is fairly basic college economic level stuff here, and ZOS could fairly easily predict what the impact of adding 9x more competition for guild trader spots was going to be.

dcam86b14_ESO

That's not bad.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Tandor wrote: »

I don't mind in the slightest your being frank and blunt, nor do I mind in the least being proved wrong - I would certainly never claim always to be right !! However, the two lines I've bolded seem to be contradictory, and as a basic trading principle then if a trader's costs are unreasonably high then the likelihood is that that will be reflected in the prices charged. They may not have to be, they may not always be, but the likelihood is that they generally will be. So I agree with the first bolded quote, but not the second one !

Okay.
I bolded the sentence of yours that is, also, inherently wrong.

Any good or service's price is NOT determined by the production costs, but by supply and demand. And solely by supply and demand. There's a price at which people are ready to buy, and above which people are not ready to buy. And there's a price at which people are ready to sell, and under which they're not ready to sell. Those two curves (which can be turned into mathematical equations and their graphical visualizations) will cross at some stage : that's the market price. (If they don't cross anywhere, noone sells, noone buys, there's no market, the good or service is simply not tradeable, end of story).

Production costs (including distribution costs, and in the case of ESO, trader bid/guild fees) have little to no say in this. It only has an impact IF the global costs exceed what the customers are ready to pay. In which case the market for said good/service simply disappears.

Let's say you offer baby-sitting services for 30$ a night (theoretical figure taken out of nowhere). That's the current market price. You have customers, you babysit 2 nights a week. Fine. Now the government decides to tax babysitters by 100%. In order to maintain your profit, you must raise your prices to 60$ a night. But at this price, there are far less young parents who will go out and ask/pay for babysitting services. They'll stay at home and watch Netflix instead of going to the movies. And you'll find another way to finance your studies or extras.
Point is, you cannot impose prices onto your customers, because they're free to buy or not buy. In the case of ESO, it could result in people doing without or farming themselves, but in both cases, demand will shrink.

At the moment, the extra cost of trader bids are financed by... extra gold. The gold that was just there sitting around. I myself donate - willingly - twice as much as I used to to my trading guilds, for the sake of taking part in the effort. That's because I, too, sit on piles of gold I have no other/better use for. Once my gold has shrunk seriously, I will be far more scarce with that. So will everyone else in my situation. We will have less gold, but the less we have will feel (and be) more valuable than what we currently have. That's what gold sinks are for.

Once the gold has been pumped out, we will see a new supply/demand curve for everything. And the trader bids will stabilize at a new - for now unknown) level. But this equation is far more complicated (and not even remotely linked to) a simple "increased bid costs are incorporated into selling prices and therefore supported by the entire community". Instead, we'll see a new trade-off behaviour between buying/farming/doing without.

I hope I'm being clear here... dunno xD

anitajoneb17_ESO

Tandor wrote: »

I don't mind in the slightest your being frank and blunt, nor do I mind in the least being proved wrong - I would certainly never claim always to be right !! However, the two lines I've bolded seem to be contradictory, and as a basic trading principle then if a trader's costs are unreasonably high then the likelihood is that that will be reflected in the prices charged. They may not have to be, they may not always be, but the likelihood is that they generally will be. So I agree with the first bolded quote, but not the second one !

And to answer your questioning more directly :
There are currently four ways the higher trader bids can be financed :
- Gold piles / Saved gold (either by guilds or guild members via donations)
- More farming - gold creation
- Crown selling (IRL currency => gold conversion)
- Increased prices of goods sold ingame.

What I meant is increased prices is only one of several (imho 4, as listed above) sources of financing of high trader bids, and probably the less significant, since you cannot impose prices onto customers (as explained in my previous post).

Jayne_Doe

jazsper77 wrote: »

So casual,time to time,and new players do NOT need CAPITAL TRADERS!!!!!!

So I get what OP is actually doing. Multi Bid system is working as intended. No ghosts, no back ups . Love it !!!

We used to have 25 ghosts a week on PS4 NA and now Zero. 👍 to Zos for fixing this and all the GUILDS who created the mess, this is the price you pay.

Actually, multi-bidding didn't fix ghost guilds. What fixed ghost guilds was locking traders once a bid was won. If the guild disbanded, then the trader was left empty and unable to be bid on for the week. That's what fixed ghost guilds. Can you imagine if they didn't do that alongside the introduction of multi-bidding?

I'm not sure how the new system has affected most guilds, but my main in Mournhold seems to have had a better time of locking down its trader as we haven't lost it since the new system was introduced. In fact, the only guild I'm in that has lost its trader once, was in Ebonheart. It was really weird since that guild has always had that trader since I joined about 2 years ago. Then, out of the blue, we're in Orsinium for a week.

This is on XB NA. I also play on PC semi-regularly since that's the main platform for my husband. So, I joined his trading guild that had a spot consistently in Riften, until multi-bidding was introduced. It was a no dues guild that never had any problem hiring the same trader in Riften. But, I suspect Riften is a fallback for bigger guilds, and we haven't been able to get that spot back. We now have 2k dues or 100K (something like that) in sales to have a spot in Lilmoth. We've gotten it consistently the last few weeks, so I think we've settled in there, but not without having a dues requirement. At first, the guild tried 5k dues or 145K in sales, but we couldn't get the Riften trader back with those requirements, so the GM settled for a lesser location and lowered the dues. The GM does want to get back to no dues, so we'll see if we can get there. We did lose a good number of members when we lost the Riften trader and then when dues were implemented. But 2k/week is easy for me to get on PC from just doing crafting writs on my main and selling some things at the trader. Plus, it's worth it to me as the guild hall has all crafting stations, etc.

Tandor

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't mind in the slightest your being frank and blunt, nor do I mind in the least being proved wrong - I would certainly never claim always to be right !! However, the two lines I've bolded seem to be contradictory, and as a basic trading principle then if a trader's costs are unreasonably high then the likelihood is that that will be reflected in the prices charged. They may not have to be, they may not always be, but the likelihood is that they generally will be. So I agree with the first bolded quote, but not the second one !

And to answer your questioning more directly :
There are currently four ways the higher trader bids can be financed :
- Gold piles / Saved gold (either by guilds or guild members via donations)
- More farming - gold creation
- Crown selling (IRL currency => gold conversion)
- Increased prices of goods sold ingame.

What I meant is increased prices is only one of several (imho 4, as listed above) sources of financing of high trader bids, and probably the less significant, since you cannot impose prices onto customers (as explained in my previous post).

Your previous post relates more generally to real life trading, the criteria for which are very different to what happens in ESO.
However, I'm quite happy that we are in partial agreement. My point was that when trader bids (and therefore guild dues) are unreasonably high (and many GMs I'm sure would agree that they're quite absurd) that will be reflected in the prices charged, and you don't dispute that but argue that it is only one factor among several. That's fine.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Tandor wrote: »

Your previous post relates more generally to real life trading, the criteria for which are very different to what happens in ESO.

ESO economy is player-driven, aka human-driven, therefore obeying to the exact same rules as RL economy. It's an over-simplified version of it (far less variations, options, distortions, products, etc...) but still following the exact same model.
If you follow the pro-GAH/anti-GAH threads on here, you'll find, in a transposed and simplified version the exact same arguments as the pro- and anti-globalization RL debates...

Raideen

Bottom line (and putting useless semantics aside) is that if guild dues go up due to the guild needing more money to secure a spot and the player limit in guilds remains fixed at 500 people, then the members in that particular guild will have to pay more gold, or the guild leaders (as some sadly do now) will exchange crowns for gold (which should NOT even be a thing to start with).

Potential ways a member may go about to increase their wealth so that they can pay higher guild requirements:

• ]Listed prices may go up.
• Players will have to spend more time doing mundane work (Farming), vs playing the game. This may have a net result of the player leaving ESO.
• Players may be exchanging crowns for gold to make up for the gold loss (which appears to be exactly what ZO$ is going for)

I am sure their are more, I simply use these examples to illustrate what can and will happen.

Its a bad situation across the board. Never mind the trickle down effect of losing a spot that pushes the next guy down, that pushes the next guy down.

Global AH FTW.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Raideen wrote: »

I am sure their are more, I simply use these examples to illustrate what can and will happen.

Except trader bids aren't predetermined by ZOS. They will only go up (and remain high) as far as players will allow and tolerate it. Or bids will decrease back to some acceptable amounts.
They will not go higher than the economy can sustain.
For now they're high because there's so much excess gold lying around.

Elsonso

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If you follow the pro-GAH/anti-GAH threads on here, you'll find, in a transposed and simplified version the exact same arguments as the pro- and anti-globalization RL debates...

I get a laugh out of that, by the way. It is not unusual for me to be half way through someone's pro/anti AH comment before I have a solid understanding of whether they are PRO or ANTI.

Raideen wrote: »

Its a bad situation across the board. Never mind the trickle down effect of losing a spot that pushes the next guy down, that pushes the next guy down.

The thing is that I see this as self-correcting. If this truly is a bad situation, without ZOS having to take any action, the system will correct for it. Economics has a way of doing that.

Lylith

two of my guilds who used to have prime spots have just said *** it.

can't say i blame them

x4livin wrote: »

Suddenly 2 of my long standing trading guilds don't have traders. 1 of them, this is the second time in 3 weeks. I'm not sure if they will go up on the dues or just give up on having a trader.

two of my guilds, in the last couple weeks, just said *** it, we're done with the guild store song and dance.

can't say i blame them one bit.

MJallday

Every single one of my guilds has a trader in a main city

Guild fees per week = 0

Find better guilds

EllieBlue

Maybe people posting can also add/state if they are playing on pc na, pc eu, xbox, playstation.. because all 4 have very different guilds pricing (bids and selling goods) structure. It makes it a bit easier to consolidate data + info when we know which platform you are commenting from. Cheers.

Raideen

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

I am sure their are more, I simply use these examples to illustrate what can and will happen.

Except trader bids aren't predetermined by ZOS. They will only go up (and remain high) as far as players will allow and tolerate it. Or bids will decrease back to some acceptable amounts.
They will not go higher than the economy can sustain.
For now they're high because there's so much excess gold lying around.

Yes they are, ZOS created the system that allows for it. The Traders did not design and code the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Raideen wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

I am sure their are more, I simply use these examples to illustrate what can and will happen.

Except trader bids aren't predetermined by ZOS. They will only go up (and remain high) as far as players will allow and tolerate it. Or bids will decrease back to some acceptable amounts.
They will not go higher than the economy can sustain.
For now they're high because there's so much excess gold lying around.

Yes they are, ZOS created the system that allows for it. The Traders did not design and code the game.

LoL. No.
Guilds bid what they want. Period.

Loves_guars

Dread_Viking wrote: »

Loves_guars wrote: »

First: It's not my intention to flame, I just want to raise my concern to ZoS, from a casual player.

The trader guild I was in, just started asking for dues or raised the minimum sales from 65k to 360k weekly. This is just not acceptable for casual players. I know there were some changes to the bidding system, so I don't blame the guild, I hear this is happening to many of them.

Even I, doing 6 characters+ writs mostly daily, find it too much to stay on the guild and I will have to leave. These days I don't do anything else but I bet there are players that do much less. This is harming casual/semicasual/newish players that just want to sell stuff from time to time like you would do in any normal MMO.

You can say "find a guild without dues" but these are very rare the last time I tried to find one, and I can see why, the competition is too high and it seems that only the players with millions can stay on it. Moreover, obviously, these guilds have vendors in places like a lost wayshrine in Greenshade that no one ever will visit so the sales will be abysmal if any.

The guild trader system was already a disaster when you wanted to find an item, now add this problem. Please consider a whole revamp.

can i ask what platform you are on ???

Sorry, PC NA.
Thanks everyone for responses and advice. Yes of course I will leave the guild and try to find -again- another.

Recent

Big trading guilds are the equivalent of vet endgame. The fees are toxic. It's like a separate game in itself when you enter that world.

starkerealm

Loves_guars wrote: »

Dread_Viking wrote: »

Loves_guars wrote: »

First: It's not my intention to flame, I just want to raise my concern to ZoS, from a casual player.

The trader guild I was in, just started asking for dues or raised the minimum sales from 65k to 360k weekly. This is just not acceptable for casual players. I know there were some changes to the bidding system, so I don't blame the guild, I hear this is happening to many of them.

Even I, doing 6 characters+ writs mostly daily, find it too much to stay on the guild and I will have to leave. These days I don't do anything else but I bet there are players that do much less. This is harming casual/semicasual/newish players that just want to sell stuff from time to time like you would do in any normal MMO.

You can say "find a guild without dues" but these are very rare the last time I tried to find one, and I can see why, the competition is too high and it seems that only the players with millions can stay on it. Moreover, obviously, these guilds have vendors in places like a lost wayshrine in Greenshade that no one ever will visit so the sales will be abysmal if any.

The guild trader system was already a disaster when you wanted to find an item, now add this problem. Please consider a whole revamp.

can i ask what platform you are on ???

Sorry, PC NA.
Thanks everyone for responses and advice. Yes of course I will leave the guild and try to find -again- another.

If you want, I can get you an invite to a no reqs guild.

Loves_guars

starkerealm wrote: »

Loves_guars wrote: »

Dread_Viking wrote: »

Loves_guars wrote: »

First: It's not my intention to flame, I just want to raise my concern to ZoS, from a casual player.

The trader guild I was in, just started asking for dues or raised the minimum sales from 65k to 360k weekly. This is just not acceptable for casual players. I know there were some changes to the bidding system, so I don't blame the guild, I hear this is happening to many of them.

Even I, doing 6 characters+ writs mostly daily, find it too much to stay on the guild and I will have to leave. These days I don't do anything else but I bet there are players that do much less. This is harming casual/semicasual/newish players that just want to sell stuff from time to time like you would do in any normal MMO.

You can say "find a guild without dues" but these are very rare the last time I tried to find one, and I can see why, the competition is too high and it seems that only the players with millions can stay on it. Moreover, obviously, these guilds have vendors in places like a lost wayshrine in Greenshade that no one ever will visit so the sales will be abysmal if any.

The guild trader system was already a disaster when you wanted to find an item, now add this problem. Please consider a whole revamp.

can i ask what platform you are on ???

Sorry, PC NA.
Thanks everyone for responses and advice. Yes of course I will leave the guild and try to find -again- another.

If you want, I can get you an invite to a no reqs guild.

Thanks a lot, I'll try to pm you later because I have to log in and quit the guild to free a spot first.

starkerealm

Loves_guars wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Loves_guars wrote: »

Dread_Viking wrote: »

Loves_guars wrote: »

First: It's not my intention to flame, I just want to raise my concern to ZoS, from a casual player.

The trader guild I was in, just started asking for dues or raised the minimum sales from 65k to 360k weekly. This is just not acceptable for casual players. I know there were some changes to the bidding system, so I don't blame the guild, I hear this is happening to many of them.

Even I, doing 6 characters+ writs mostly daily, find it too much to stay on the guild and I will have to leave. These days I don't do anything else but I bet there are players that do much less. This is harming casual/semicasual/newish players that just want to sell stuff from time to time like you would do in any normal MMO.

You can say "find a guild without dues" but these are very rare the last time I tried to find one, and I can see why, the competition is too high and it seems that only the players with millions can stay on it. Moreover, obviously, these guilds have vendors in places like a lost wayshrine in Greenshade that no one ever will visit so the sales will be abysmal if any.

The guild trader system was already a disaster when you wanted to find an item, now add this problem. Please consider a whole revamp.

can i ask what platform you are on ???

Sorry, PC NA.
Thanks everyone for responses and advice. Yes of course I will leave the guild and try to find -again- another.

If you want, I can get you an invite to a no reqs guild.

Thanks a lot, I'll try to pm you later because I have to log in and quit the guild to free a spot first.

Okay, cool. I should be around.

WrathOfInnos

starkerealm wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If you don't like the dues, don't pay them and look for another guild. If enough people do this, prices eventually drop and dues drop with it.

In fairness, there are a lot of guilds that don't have dues... wait, are you in AASB?

Not sure what AASB is, but I'm in two guilds with no dues right now and sell things at a reasonable rate.

Trade guild out of Markarth. I had the weird feeling that I've seen your username in our discord, and was like, "wait, are we talking about the same guild?"

Again, same deal, no dues, no quota. Mostly supported through a couple guild members who generate a downright terrifying amount of cash.

Do you get much business in Markarth? I wouldn’t expect many players in that area until maybe 2021.

VaranisArano

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If you don't like the dues, don't pay them and look for another guild. If enough people do this, prices eventually drop and dues drop with it.

In fairness, there are a lot of guilds that don't have dues... wait, are you in AASB?

Not sure what AASB is, but I'm in two guilds with no dues right now and sell things at a reasonable rate.

Trade guild out of Markarth. I had the weird feeling that I've seen your username in our discord, and was like, "wait, are we talking about the same guild?"

Again, same deal, no dues, no quota. Mostly supported through a couple guild members who generate a downright terrifying amount of cash.

Do you get much business in Markarth? I wouldn’t expect many players in that area until maybe 2021.

I keep thinking about moving a guild there, but the first time I entered the city, one of the guild traders got knifed in the back by some "forsworn" dude. Not cool! And I'm none too sure about the [Questionable Meat Sack] the butcher is selling...

Raideen

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

I am sure their are more, I simply use these examples to illustrate what can and will happen.

Except trader bids aren't predetermined by ZOS. They will only go up (and remain high) as far as players will allow and tolerate it. Or bids will decrease back to some acceptable amounts.
They will not go higher than the economy can sustain.
For now they're high because there's so much excess gold lying around.

Yes they are, ZOS created the system that allows for it. The Traders did not design and code the game.

LoL. No.
Guilds bid what they want. Period.

Wrong. 100% factually incorrect and obnoxiously wrong.
The system is designed to do that and that system was not designed by the guild traders, lol.
I think the disconnect here is that you are thinking surface level, I am trying to think more core, bigger picture, the system by its design. That is where the fundamental flaws will always start.

starkerealm

Raideen wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

I am sure their are more, I simply use these examples to illustrate what can and will happen.

Except trader bids aren't predetermined by ZOS. They will only go up (and remain high) as far as players will allow and tolerate it. Or bids will decrease back to some acceptable amounts.
They will not go higher than the economy can sustain.
For now they're high because there's so much excess gold lying around.

Yes they are, ZOS created the system that allows for it. The Traders did not design and code the game.

LoL. No.
Guilds bid what they want. Period.

Wrong. 100% factually incorrect and obnoxiously wrong.
The system is designed to do that and that system was not designed by the guild traders, lol.
I think the disconnect here is that you are thinking surface level, I am trying to think more core, bigger picture, the system by its design. That is where the fundamental flaws will always start.

Wait... I know this game... I think you meant to say, "no, you!"

The system is designed to scale based on the amount of gold in the system. The more gold in the economy, the higher the bids get. Think of it like a pressure valve. Pressure gets above a certain point, it bleeds off.

There's a lot of gold in the economy, and when more comes in, bids go up.

So, in the strictest sense, yes, ZOS created the policies, but it is a self regulating system. The more money in circulation, the more you'll pay for a guild kiosk.

The value of the kiosk remains fairly stable, but the value of the gold itself shifts based on the amount entering, or exiting, the economy.

ZOS created the system, but guilds are the ones setting their bids. Players, as a gestalt, are determining how much those bids will be.

Pointing the finger at ZOS is a conspiracy theory.

Pointing it at the guilds is reductive.

Pointing it at the market isn't sexy.

Here we are.

Raideen

starkerealm wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

I am sure their are more, I simply use these examples to illustrate what can and will happen.

Except trader bids aren't predetermined by ZOS. They will only go up (and remain high) as far as players will allow and tolerate it. Or bids will decrease back to some acceptable amounts.
They will not go higher than the economy can sustain.
For now they're high because there's so much excess gold lying around.

Yes they are, ZOS created the system that allows for it. The Traders did not design and code the game.

LoL. No.
Guilds bid what they want. Period.

Wrong. 100% factually incorrect and obnoxiously wrong.
The system is designed to do that and that system was not designed by the guild traders, lol.
I think the disconnect here is that you are thinking surface level, I am trying to think more core, bigger picture, the system by its design. That is where the fundamental flaws will always start.

Wait... I know this game... I think you meant to say, "no, you!"

The system is designed to scale based on the amount of gold in the system. The more gold in the economy, the higher the bids get. Think of it like a pressure valve. Pressure gets above a certain point, it bleeds off.

There's a lot of gold in the economy, and when more comes in, bids go up.

So, in the strictest sense, yes, ZOS created the policies, but it is a self regulating system. The more money in circulation, the more you'll pay for a guild kiosk.

The value of the kiosk remains fairly stable, but the value of the gold itself shifts based on the amount entering, or exiting, the economy.

ZOS created the system, but guilds are the ones setting their bids. Players, as a gestalt, are determining how much those bids will be.

Pointing the finger at ZOS is a conspiracy theory.

Pointing it at the guilds is reductive.

Pointing it at the market isn't sexy.

Here we are.

SMH....

Lets break this down to its simplest formula.

Zenimax Online created Elder Scrolls Online. They create the design, the art assets and they code it. Any system within the game are created by them.

If there is an issue with one of those systems, it is up to them to solve it.

SMH....

unclesheosnephew

664x7=4648 4648x16=74368 74368x30=2,231,040 Thats just the gold from daily quest turn ins on crafting dailies. Take about 1h 30m to do my characters. your making 836640g from them monthly and your worried about 60k?

Raideen

unclesheosnephew wrote: »

664x7=4648 4648x16=74368 74368x30=2,231,040 Thats just the gold from daily quest turn ins on crafting dailies. Take about 1h 30m to do my characters. your making 836640g from them monthly and your worried about 60k?

Now subtract repairs, materials for consumables, material cost to do the crafting, bank space, character space, riding lessons, and all the other tiny little gold sinks in game.

For those who only play to craft. Sure, its easy. But for those who play to do the actual fun stuff in game (imo), its not so easy.