Guild dues just skyrocketed

thermatico

If the guild is providing a consistent, well placed guild trader in a capital city then pay the dues. I am in several trade guilds in capital cities with little to no dues and very reasonable minimum requirements. I am also in several trade guilds that require 200-400k minimum sales per week. If you are descent at trading/flipping/pricing I find this very easy in those guilds because with the trader location the items sale themselves if priced reasonably.

VaranisArano

One of the issues with multibidding is it locks money out of the economy without actually removing it.

What?

Its the refunds.

You must have the money to bid and you can bid as much as you like, but losing bids are all refunded.

That means that there's a huge incentive to stockpile lots of money to use on backup bids that will probably never come into play but if they do, your guild had better win that bid. And other guilds feel the perceived pressure of those increased backup bids and stockpile in turn.

So guild war chests are increasing...but most of that gold isnt leaving the economy as it would in a true gold sink. It's still there, waiting to be used next week, on top of the accumulating profits for every guild who's not dramatically overbidding on their spot. The end result is that while there's not as much money being traded between players, there's a lot more money being dedicated to guild trader bidding than there ever was, and increasing as time goes on.

That money doesn't always have to come from guild members via fees and increased requirements. It can be loaned to the guild by rich members with the expectation that they'll be paid back eventually. But for guilds who don't have that system or members willing to loan, there's really no recourse but to increase fees or fade away. Its a "guild arms race" to build up their war chest in response to actual or perceived threats.

It wouldnt be a big deal if everyone could stockpile to a certain point and then stop, but between actual and perceived threats, that's just not happening.

Its all setting up a rather interesting situation,, because as long as perceived and actual pressure pushes guilds to increase their war chests, they will keep pulling gold out of the economy from their members or rich donors. But 9 out of 10 bids worth of that gold doesnt actually leave the economy. Its still there, currently stockpiled for bidding each week.

And if guild bids ever start dropping across the whole economy for some reason and that stockpiled gold starts being used for other things than guild bidding...I don't know exactly what would happen, but it would be interesting, and probably not in a good way.

I almost wonder if someone working for ZOS isn't an economics guy/gal hoping to write a thesis off this someday

Inaya

The only reason to be in a trading guild is to sell. Now if you can find one that also has GREAT people, like the one I'm in then you are good to go. We have 10k dues that can be paid in gold or by buying 10 raffle tickets - sales quota is 20k. We have two one hour farming events a week where we farm and are paid a portion of the mats we farmed in gold. We also have an auction every Saturday night as well as a week long discord auction for those that can't participate on Saturdays.

Yes, these events make money but because the people in my guild are great peeps they are also a lot of fun. I wouldn't trade my guild for anything!

Heatnix90

Lmao, Spicy does 400k a week, real easy to meet if you know what you're doing, even as a casual.

Nestor

I used to be in a trading guild but got tired of the dues. This was before multi bid. My two social guilds have no dues and maintain Kiosks weekly. One has the same kiosk they have had for years, even after multi bid. The other gets better Kiosks now than they did before.

I move whatever I list on these two guilds just as I did with the trading guild. Sure, it can take a few extra days, but I am not in the game to make gold, just shed excess inventory.

The 5 Prime locations always have absurd dues requirements. That is the price to pay for those locations.

Rave the Histborn

Loves_guars wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

What system you on where they’re asking that much? 65k is ridiculous to begin with. I’m in a couple trading giilds on PS4 NA and they’re asking 15-20k weekly.

Yes sorry, I meant 15k dues, (360k sales without dues). I know it's not much for rich players, but my point is that casuals get excluded from the system, when they should be included to shorten the breach between them and rich players.

To answer everyone, same, I think this is nonsensical, in the way that you need weekly money to stay competitive. You say "casual don't need main city trader" but actually yes, because in this way, the distance between poor and rich widens more and more.

How are casuals being excluded?

First of 15k a week isn't really high priced, you can make that in 20min just doing crafting dailies and you still have 6 more days in your week to gain extra profit. That's not including any sales you make, any vendor trash you get, etc. Look, I'm not trying to be mean here by if you can't make 15k yourself in a week you don't need access to an AH or a guild store because it is just another system you're not going to understand and you most likely don't have anything worth selling. You can always use zone chat.

"To answer everyone, same, I think this is nonsensical, in the way that you need weekly money to stay competitive."

If only there was like some sory of age old quote we would put here.m Oh wait......

"You have to spend money to make money."

This is a common English saying. It means that it's hard to make money in a business without investing some money in supplies, products, advertisement, or other business expenses. This is what people say when someone criticizes how much they're spending on these kinds of things.

It's almost like when you pay your guild dues your getting more then just a place to sell things. You're getting the name and reputation that goes with it which can be well deserved. If you've never owned a business there's things like rent are also things you have to think about, you need to be able to pay for your retail space. That is what a guild due is, you're paying rent and it's not just you it's everyone in your guild.

Yuffie91

There is a lot of competition I think. 2 of the trade guilds I am in lost their trader this week. 1 of them had a minimum sales requirement and the other one doesn't

DirkRavenclaw

Im on PC/NA and PC/EU, my 2 Tradingguilds on NA, 1) Has no Dues,2) Reduced from 100k to 60k in Sales. Multibidding is awesome, before, half the Guild had to camp at Traders all over to, in a Emergency grab a free Trade spot, now you bid on mulriple, 1 will come throught. My 2 Socialguilds and my PVP Guild have no Dues, optional Raffle/Donations, all 5 have a Trader. On PC/EU my Guilds have no Dues, just look around, plenty out there and, thanks to the Guildfinder, its easier then ever to find a Guild that suits you, and where you suit them

pod88kk

Xbox EU, I don't think I've ever paid dues

Kagukan

All hail the Guild Trader System, the worst auction system in the history of MMO's!

starkerealm

Kagukan wrote: »

All hail the Guild Trader System, the worst auction system in the history of MMO's!

BDO's is so much worse. Items have a floor and ceiling that are set based on some arbitrary value. You can't list for more than the ceiling or less than the floor. In the case of rare items, those are frequently worth more than the ceiling, and you simply cannot sell them, except at a loss. So, no one does. You'll see people in chat begging for someone someone to list specific rare items.

Grimm13

Looking at the 10k hire a trade price it does not appear that ZOS expected trader bids to as high as they are. Yet they have no limit as far as we've seen on the trader bids.

The multi-bidding system also promotes making the trader bids to the highest amounts as it is a guilds highest bid that wins and not the lowest bid they placed that was the winning bid at it's trader.

barney2525

Hapexamendios wrote: »

What system you on where they’re asking that much? 65k is ridiculous to begin with. I’m in a couple trading giilds on PS4 NA and they’re asking 15-20k weekly.

guild I am in went from 50K to 75k. Initally went from 5k gold (if you didn't make sales) to 10k.

guild had to restructure due to RL issues, now its 75k sales, or 5k gold

and even at these prices there have been weeks we lost out on trader

this is not opinion, this is just the facts.

VaranisArano

barney2525 wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

What system you on where they’re asking that much? 65k is ridiculous to begin with. I’m in a couple trading giilds on PS4 NA and they’re asking 15-20k weekly.

guild I am in went from 50K to 75k. Initally went from 5k gold (if you didn't make sales) to 10k.

guild had to restructure due to RL issues, now its 75k sales, or 5k gold

and even at these prices there have been weeks we lost out on trader

this is not opinion, this is just the facts.

Its also a lot better for your guild to just ask for 5k dues.

Players making 75k sales put volume and value in the guild trader, which is its own less tangible profit to the guild, but the hard profit for the guild is only 3.5% of 75k, or 2,625 gold.

FelixTheCatt

I can't believe players still waste time with guilds. Essentially they're useless.

VaranisArano

FelixTheCatt wrote: »

I can't believe players still waste time with guilds. Essentially they're useless.

Dunno, I spend many enjoyable evenings in Cyrodiil with my PVP guild and my trading guild spares me from having to hawk my excess inventory in zone chat.

Like with many other things, you get out of guilds what you put into them.

Emmagoldman

I was in a Top trade guild and left because it wasn't how I wanted to play the game. Top guilds may have 300-400k sales requirements. These are players that enjoy "playing the market". They log in, and just play to see how much they can earn, which is fine. They are also more hardcore and what to be top tier, like a hedgefund. Top trade guilds are looking for similar people as well. If your guild is raising to a top tier format, they are trying to change it.

If you can't commit, it's time to let go and move to something at your level. I did the same. I found a solid trade guild, 10k dues or 70k sales. I can float this and now, instead of playing the market, flipping goods, watching metas for sales, farming, I use my limited time to do bgs and ic from time to time. I don't feel stress, spend time with family, workout, read, and do rl *** instead of worrying about stacking electronic coins. Most casual players have a good work/life balance, and don't feel that you need to be obligated into a hardcore game play that feels like work.

phileunderx2

On PC na nothing has changed dues wise in the 3 trading guilds I'm in. 2 still have no dues and the other I just have to sell or buy 10 k a week.
On PS4 dues went up 5 k for around 6 weeks and then dropped back down to the previous 15 k a week.

asalemi

bmnoble wrote: »

Never liked sales targets, I have always preferred guilds that allow you to pay x amount each week in dues/raffle tickets if your not planning to sell that week or don't expect to sell much.

All the guilds I am in have a min amount you need to contribute each week through raffle tickets/winning auction bids/sales tax (more often than not most guilds a generous when it comes to sales tax, by counting the full amount against your weekly dues instead of the half they actually get)


15K a week seem a bit much, unless your in an Alliance capital or Rawl'Kha each week, anywhere else it should be around the 5K - 10K mark at most.

Anything above the minimum is up to the individual player, provided your guild maintains a good location a lot of the top sellers will generally contribute more per week than most, to make sure they maintain that location, most of the time they will more than make up for the causal sellers in a guild.

This is a video game. What have we become lol. So glad I work full time and have the time to read this lunacy. I miss the days of Intellivision.

Billdor

Deep_01 wrote: »

Primary purpose of trading guilds is for sales. Please switch to another trading guild if you cannot make minimum sales. The friends/environment is secondary.

There are plenty of guilds with different requirements in all servers.

Unfortunatly, the entitlement with OP is very strong so...

Shantu

I quit a popular trading guild a few weeks back that raised their weekly fee. Not that I minded the fee, but the guild owners where such stressed out, whiny asses about it. People need to get a grip. Do what you need to do to run your guild. If people don't like it, they can leave. But for heaven's sake, leave all the psychodrama with your therapist.

majulook

Lots of trade guilds that have just a few thousand gold (5k or less) per week or the same in raffle tickets.

I would not be surprised if the OP's Guild with a 360k weekly sales requirement soon folds.

Was it not just a several months ago that a guild boosted its fees and then closed, with much turmoil.

EvilAutoTech

I joined a trading guild with a spot in Mournhold. Even at the exaggerated prices that I was listing items at, my stock of items that I was willing to sell didn't last the week. I could make 360k just swapping characters (maybe). I made 6M in 5 days before leaving the guild. I occasionally get invites to rejoin. It's just not what I want to do with my limited gaming time these days.

I now am in only one guild that bids on a trader. It's a social guild (mostly) but we've had the same trader since I joined, right around 1T. (We've missed a few weeks, maybe 4 in that time). There are no dues but a donation is requested. I just donate whatever my main has on her after crafting writs and collecting my mail on Friday mornings. It's always at least 10k.

From my experience, it seems that if you can't get 360k in sales in a top trading guild, you probably don't need to be in a top trading guild.

Tandor

Loves_guars wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

What system you on where they’re asking that much? 65k is ridiculous to begin with. I’m in a couple trading giilds on PS4 NA and they’re asking 15-20k weekly.

Yes sorry, I meant 15k dues, (360k sales without dues). I know it's not much for rich players, but my point is that casuals get excluded from the system, when they should be included to shorten the breach between them and rich players.

To answer everyone, same, I think this is nonsensical, in the way that you need weekly money to stay competitive. You say "casual don't need main city trader" but actually yes, because in this way, the distance between poor and rich widens more and more.

The trading system isn't designed for casual players, or casual traders, nor is it designed for lower level players. It's really only designed for high-level farmers and market manipulators, along of course with gold sellers.

It never fails to amuse me when people defend the system by claiming that an AH would result in inflated prices through price manipulation when not only does that happen with the existing system but in addition - as the supporters proudly proclaim - it also takes hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Guess where that comes from, if not from inflated prices!

If you're not happy with the extortion practiced (in effect by both the guilds and the developers who know perfectly well how much is taken in trader bids and guild dues every week and are seemingly happy with it, as well as with the severe restrictions in the number of players who can participate due to the limited number of traders, not to mention the uneven playing field between the add-on supported PC players and their unfortunate fellow players on console who just have to make do without add-ons) in the guise of a trading system then do what most of the playerbase do, and play no part in it. Just aim for self--sufficency between your own characters and sell what's left over to NPC merchants - and that's coming from someone who's traded perfectly satisfactorily with no hint of extortion or abuse in every other MMORPG played since 1997.

Never accept any demand for guild dues or minimum sales targets without asking those making the demands - or otherwise defending the system - their highest character level, their personal bank balance and their guild bank balance. I think you'll find the answers to those questions will explain their position !

Aurie

Tandor wrote: »

The trading system isn't designed for casual players, or casual traders, nor is it designed for lower level players. It's really only designed for high-level farmers and market manipulators, along of course with gold sellers.

It never fails to amuse me when people defend the system by claiming that an AH would result in inflated prices through price manipulation when not only does that happen with the existing system but in addition - as the supporters proudly proclaim - it also takes hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Guess where that comes from, if not from inflated prices!

If you're not happy with the extortion practiced (in effect by both the guilds and the developers who know perfectly well how much is taken in trader bids and guild dues every week and are seemingly happy with it, as well as with the severe restrictions in the number of players who can participate due to the limited number of traders, not to mention the uneven playing field between the add-on supported PC players and their unfortunate fellow players on console who just have to make do without add-ons) in the guise of a trading system then do what most of the playerbase do, and play no part in it. Just aim for self--sufficency between your own characters and sell what's left over to NPC merchants - and that's coming from someone who's traded perfectly satisfactorily with no hint of extortion or abuse in every other MMORPG played since 1997.

Never accept any demand for guild dues or minimum sales targets without asking those making the demands - or otherwise defending the system - their highest character level, their personal bank balance and their guild bank balance. I think you'll find the answers to those questions will explain their position !

Good post @Tandor

VaranisArano

Tandor wrote: »

Loves_guars wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

What system you on where they’re asking that much? 65k is ridiculous to begin with. I’m in a couple trading giilds on PS4 NA and they’re asking 15-20k weekly.

Yes sorry, I meant 15k dues, (360k sales without dues). I know it's not much for rich players, but my point is that casuals get excluded from the system, when they should be included to shorten the breach between them and rich players.

To answer everyone, same, I think this is nonsensical, in the way that you need weekly money to stay competitive. You say "casual don't need main city trader" but actually yes, because in this way, the distance between poor and rich widens more and more.

The trading system isn't designed for casual players, or casual traders, nor is it designed for lower level players. It's really only designed for high-level farmers and market manipulators, along of course with gold sellers.

It never fails to amuse me when people defend the system by claiming that an AH would result in inflated prices through price manipulation when not only does that happen with the existing system but in addition - as the supporters proudly proclaim - it also takes hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Guess where that comes from, if not from inflated prices!

If you're not happy with the extortion practiced (in effect by both the guilds and the developers who know perfectly well how much is taken in trader bids and guild dues every week and are seemingly happy with it, as well as with the severe restrictions in the number of players who can participate due to the limited number of traders, not to mention the uneven playing field between the add-on supported PC players and their unfortunate fellow players on console who just have to make do without add-ons) in the guise of a trading system then do what most of the playerbase do, and play no part in it. Just aim for self--sufficency between your own characters and sell what's left over to NPC merchants - and that's coming from someone who's traded perfectly satisfactorily with no hint of extortion or abuse in every other MMORPG played since 1997.

Never accept any demand for guild dues or minimum sales targets without asking those making the demands - or otherwise defending the system - their highest character level, their personal bank balance and their guild bank balance. I think you'll find the answers to those questions will explain their position !

A couple things to note.

1. Gold sinks are a good thing for any game economy. After all, MMOs work by letting players generate gold and items out of thin air by farming, questing, and killing.

2. PC and Console don't have an uneven playing field...because they aren't playing on the same field. At all. Their economies are completely separate.


Personally, I think the best questions to ask yourself about guild fees and sales requirements are:
Is this something I can do on a weekly basis and still make the profit I want?
Is this something I can do on a weekly basis and still have fun playing the game the way I like to?
Is this a guild I like being a part of?

If the answer to any of those is no, I'd suggest another guild. Fortunately, there are tons of trading guilds out there and with Guild Finder its easy to find a new one.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Trade System is working.... ....right?

Yeah, right!


All The Best

AndyMac

ZOS needs to cut out the trading middle people imo - they’ll probably disagree lol

Tandor

VaranisArano wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Loves_guars wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

What system you on where they’re asking that much? 65k is ridiculous to begin with. I’m in a couple trading giilds on PS4 NA and they’re asking 15-20k weekly.

Yes sorry, I meant 15k dues, (360k sales without dues). I know it's not much for rich players, but my point is that casuals get excluded from the system, when they should be included to shorten the breach between them and rich players.

To answer everyone, same, I think this is nonsensical, in the way that you need weekly money to stay competitive. You say "casual don't need main city trader" but actually yes, because in this way, the distance between poor and rich widens more and more.

The trading system isn't designed for casual players, or casual traders, nor is it designed for lower level players. It's really only designed for high-level farmers and market manipulators, along of course with gold sellers.

It never fails to amuse me when people defend the system by claiming that an AH would result in inflated prices through price manipulation when not only does that happen with the existing system but in addition - as the supporters proudly proclaim - it also takes hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Guess where that comes from, if not from inflated prices!

If you're not happy with the extortion practiced (in effect by both the guilds and the developers who know perfectly well how much is taken in trader bids and guild dues every week and are seemingly happy with it, as well as with the severe restrictions in the number of players who can participate due to the limited number of traders, not to mention the uneven playing field between the add-on supported PC players and their unfortunate fellow players on console who just have to make do without add-ons) in the guise of a trading system then do what most of the playerbase do, and play no part in it. Just aim for self--sufficency between your own characters and sell what's left over to NPC merchants - and that's coming from someone who's traded perfectly satisfactorily with no hint of extortion or abuse in every other MMORPG played since 1997.

Never accept any demand for guild dues or minimum sales targets without asking those making the demands - or otherwise defending the system - their highest character level, their personal bank balance and their guild bank balance. I think you'll find the answers to those questions will explain their position !

A couple things to note.

1. Gold sinks are a good thing for any game economy. After all, MMOs work by letting players generate gold and items out of thin air by farming, questing, and killing.

2. PC and Console don't have an uneven playing field...because they aren't playing on the same field. At all. Their economies are completely separate.


Personally, I think the best questions to ask yourself about guild fees and sales requirements are:
Is this something I can do on a weekly basis and still make the profit I want?
Is this something I can do on a weekly basis and still have fun playing the game the way I like to?
Is this a guild I like being a part of?

If the answer to any of those is no, I'd suggest another guild. Fortunately, there are tons of trading guilds out there and with Guild Finder its easy to find a new one.

1. I don't doubt that gold sinks are a good thing in principle, however ESO takes the contribution trading makes to them too far in practice and produces the very thing that the system's defenders oppose in other systems.

2. The uneven playing field in the trading system between PC and console players relates not to any concept of competition between them - clearly there is none - but rather to the basis on which the system is defended. Pretty much the whole of that defence is dependent on the use of add-ons - which are only available to one third of the playerbase. Two thirds of traders cannot therefore identify with the main defence for the trading system - and I think it's fair to call that an uneven playing field.

Your concluding point is a valid tip for those who are dissatisfied with their present guild(s) - and I thank you for that - but is not in itself a defence of the system which produces that dissatisfaction.

Raideen

Gold sink would not be an issue if ZO$ stopped making many of the new crown store items crowns only, especially housing which itself is a HUGE gold sink.

The entire purpose of increasing the cost with the new guild trade system is to take gold out of the game. This is obvious, but its not for reasons most people list. The reason is to drive more crown store sales.

The average player is not making gold hand over fist, increasing dues, listing prices, fees whatever has lowered sales on average which makes it hard for that player to buy bank space, pay for mounts, character inventory space etc. By themselves they are not overly expensive but combined and taking alts into account they become quite expensive so people will resort to the crown store.

Just another example of how the crown store affects gameplay, or fun overall.