Concerning the use of gender-specific armor

waswar292

logarifmik wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

logarifmik wrote: »

iaminc wrote: »

Oh god , Please don’t bring the gender snowflake SJW mantra to ESO , it’s already ruining the planet enough.

It's not about SJ at all. It's about logic behind real so-called "heavy" armor.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but sexualised armour existed in real life too.

Muscle cuirasses were popular in ancient Greece and Rome where they accentuated the idealised male form (men were the sexualised gender back then). It didn't serve any functional purpose other than to look sexy.

Agreed, but not when it comes to functionality of European medieval armor, on which mostly fantasy armor with plate boobs is based. I think, that even if we assume, that women can be as much effective warriors in our fantasy world as some man was in Medieval times, I doubt, that those highly professional battle maidens will use armor of such a shape. Its just dangerous and ineffective, "less protective", and your life depends on it.

I don't know any historical examples of such "sexy" female antique armor, but good point, anyway.

And in that case it is important to keep in mind that armor abroad in the game is not 100% focused on practicality, but different styles. The Ordinator armor is a greatly lauded design in TES games, and yet it's quite impractical, with large, but thin plates on the shoulders, a helmet shaped more tightly around the head which gives the helm less room to defend the head against disorienting blows and hits from blunt weapons, parts of the limbs are exposed, yet there's many intricate details put into the armor to reflect its more sacred status than actual focus on defensive measures. This contrasts with the Great House styles, which are bulkier. The style over substance look also goes for other popular styles such as armored robes in the heavy category; obviously putting a skirt over armor is going to inhibit movement quite a bit, but people quite like the styles anyway. It helps make armors and orders distinct.

This also goes along for things such as the PVP styles, which are more ornamental looking in spite of being predominantly plate. It's obvious that these are more for "representing" the gladiator teams than actually being completely protective.

This makes me believe all of this is just agenda-driven. People have no problem with style being prioritized in armor, as long as it doesn't make women slim and feminine looking, in which case suddenly style becomes an issue. When one considers that many of these same people tend not to clamor for men having more androgynous appearances like they want the women to, it also comes across as a bit hypocritical. I wholeheartedly disagree with making all of the characters look manly and homogeneous as some sort of "solution" to eliminate "sexism".

The game leaves the choice to the players instead, allowing great detail into the female models to allow people to have more traditionally feminine features, or others such as flat chests, narrow hips, and broad shoulders, or some combination thereof. If people desire more androgynous or even manly looking women, they are able to create such without having to influence the styles that other players could have.

peacenote

I wouldn't want any of the current armors to be replaced with gender neutral styles but I don't see anything wrong necessarily with adding a few that are like this. We have a gazillion styles anyway, and we KNOW we are getting more.

That said personally I don't like it when the armor styles don't have different looks, and I do think that when it happens it is more laziness by ZOS than anything.

I would rather see a real, third gender neutral option for all styles and costumes, which would give us more variety and is a little more true to life, than arbitrarily removing femininity from the heavy armor styles. Leave my feminine, badass plate armor alone!

Pheefs

I have boob rage at the heavy armor but I love the medium style armor leather ones

Sturmfaenger

Female Armor... yes. Always worth a sketch...or two...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vI5tdORhC0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obAd0zAFMTI

Given the choice.... it would be nice to have a choice^^

Canned_Apples

This is nothing compared to Asian mmos. Look at aau. Terrible hyper sexualized anime nonsense. I could never play any mmo with such a horrible art style.
The only thing I hate about eso armor are those stupid oversized hip pads. Those are the worst.

EvilKiwi

If I wanted my female character to look like a male, I'd play as a male. Boobies for all

nafensoriel

logarifmik wrote: »

Its just dangerous and ineffective, "less protective", and your life depends on it.

Just correcting a misconception here...
Armor shape doesn't really matter at medieval levels when the base material is generally hardened in some form or fashion.

"Boob" bumps won't actually reduce the protection all that much in relation to arrow strikes and depending on the range shot and the angle at impact the angles of the breast shape might actually increase the effectiveness of the armor.

It would take an infinitesimal amount of additional weight to thicken the sternum region to equal effective levels.

The myth that some shape matters to a plate of steel is just that... a myth. It's steel. Penetration depends more on energy at the impact and shape of projectile than anything. A small divot might, and I stress the might, allow a strike to penetrate when it normally wouldn't but in almost every case if a projectile was going to penetrate the shape of the armor doesn't matter.


/edit
I just wanted to add that armor shape often matters more to spalling than actual penetration. While certain things, such as a tank's armor, depend heavily on slant increasing thickness at the point of impact at body armor levels a "flush" strike will cause directly correlative spalling that can do the projectiles job for it even if the round never penetrated. An angled strike with the same energy will deform or cause much less spalling.

mairwen85

Watchdog wrote: »

I am a man. I like women, be it their forms, their voices, or their characters, so different from the male ones. And I plead guilty for liking 'em women more on the curvy side , therefore, the vast majority of my 11 ESO female characters have their chest slider fully to the right, or near there. Alright, having done with the obligatory introductions and premises, let me say I am very happy ESO offers Outfit styles and Costumes of many varieties.

There are the quite revealing (yet not without a purpose) Costumes like Jelwi-ma (an Ohmes Khajiit, not a Bosmer, mind you) is wearing here:

There are the obvious boobplate Outfit styles like Elnaurwen of Lillandril is wearing here:

There are the really heavy armour Costumes (still a bit boobplate-y, yet apparently combat worthy) like Alyona al-Elinhir is wearing here:

There are the still quite femine but not overdone Outfit styles like Mabrienne is wearing here:

There are the quite unexaggerated Costumes like Miara Indoril (chest slider fully to the right) is wearing here:

There are the quite unexaggerated Outfit styles like Brandhildr Bear-Bane is wearing here:

I dare say anyone can find something they fancy, it may just not be the exact item or items they would prefer. Unless ZOS can make two versions of each, we simply have to choose those Costumes and Outfit styles that fit our idea of the fantasy we want to escape to from our real lives.

Mine just may be a tiny bit more curvy and revealing than the ideas of some other people, I will give you that.

This has been my point since my first post. Albeit that you put it much clearer with photo illustration.

Bottom line: armour is as functional or aesthetic as the player chooses.

My addition -- more options for all, but do not force everyone to comply with a singular vision.

Conduit0

I will say this to anyone complaining about "boobplate". If you demand that female armor should be identical to the male version than you must demand that the female version of the Sai Sahan armor be identical to the male version. If you don't, you're a hypocrite.

Haquor

Keep the male and female varients.

Allow a selection as part of the appearance menu to display the armour piece as female or male. Like hide helmet option.

At least then people can chose to wear non breast supporting attire while not ruining it for the vast majority who like it the way it is.

Pheefs

Conduit0 wrote: »

I will say this to anyone complaining about "boobplate". If you demand that female armor should be identical to the male version than you must demand that the female version of the Sai Sahan armor be identical to the male version. If you don't, you're a hypocrite.

No, I'm not.
I can support BOTH ladies right to be topless (or bearded even if they want) AND hate the heavy armor boobs at the same time.

Glurin

First of all, ESO really isn't that bad. In fact, there's quite a few styles that run the whole gamut between fantasy and "reality". If you don't like the more feminine ones, pick something else.

And second, believe it or not, "fantasy boobplate" is not nearly as unrealistic or impractical as people think. I mean, yes, it's highly unlikely that a metal bikini is going to be enough to stop all the arrows flying at you. But armor that accentuates sexuality and/or doesn't cover a lot is far from unheard of in history. Nor is it unheard of for entire armies to have consisted of warriors that wore practically nothing. It is not unreasonable to assume that had women played a much more prominent role in historical conflicts, we would have many examples of RL boobplate worn in battle. Including examples of so called bikini armor.

ArchMikem

Cloudtrader wrote: »

I absolutely want to see more sexualized men's armor. It is an incredibly sexist double standard that there are only a few bits of male-specific armor in the game that emphasize skin or sexy characteristics for them. It would be nice to have more female armor that is more neutral, too.

Yknow theres quite a few styles with bare chests for male characters. It makes me jealous, i want my girls to be free as well.

max_only

Please also add super slinky male armor too. I need everything the male High Elves and male Castanics wear in Tera.

Mr_Walker

Pheefs wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

I will say this to anyone complaining about "boobplate". If you demand that female armor should be identical to the male version than you must demand that the female version of the Sai Sahan armor be identical to the male version. If you don't, you're a hypocrite.

No, I'm not.
I can support BOTH ladies right to be topless (or bearded even if they want) AND hate the heavy armor boobs at the same time.

Maybe Sai Sahan is in fact a topless, bearded lady. Hmmm. Things to ponder....

KillsAllElves

[removed quote]

I mean... duh... magic!

For the record, hetero female here -- There are plenty of armours that adhere more to the logic than don't -- and those which are skimpy, are skimpy for both genders. The few that ingratiate the female form are very nice. I personally feel the female form should be celebrated... and that is what I do when I select the motifs for my character's armour. [/quote]
Magic means there is no place for logic. Okay, lets just leave it like that, but I strongly disagree with such an approach to fantasy.

I'm not against female fantasy armor and such, though I like to see, when an artist put some thought behind the concept he created, that he was driven not only by some subjective ideas of aesthetics. That's what I'm talking about.[/quote]


"Magic means there is no place for logic" Wrong usage of the word (magic), Magic is real, In the real world its called sleight of hand ie card players or magicians. Theres multiple contexts for magic- all magic in video games are spell conjuration gifts from a divine being whether their intent is "good" or "bad".

ArchangelIsraphel

max_only wrote: »

Please also add super slinky male armor too. I need everything the male High Elves and male Castanics wear in Tera.

@max_only While we're at it can we also have the facial features/hairstyles and body types from Terra? Cause I need this in my ESO life.

BlissfulDeluge

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

This might be seen as low-effort, and I was gonna write an essay on the validity of gendered armor, but I don't have the time for it. So here's a TL;DR version of that.

I'm not gonna ask to change cloth-/leather-armor that necessitates different armor versions for men and women to cover up certain fEaTuReS, but honestly, can we get to see less of the tittyplate-trope? Some gender-neutral armor?

Preferably I'd like to see all heavy armor replaced with the gender-neutral male version with the flat chest, since any heavy armor worn has gambesons beneath, which make tittyshapes redundant, no matter how aesthetically pleasing they may or may not be. This wouldn't be a difficult task, logistically speaking, because the models for flat-chested armor already exist. You'd just have to make male versions of heavy armor appear on both male and female characters.

If gender-neutral armor is too big a request, I'd like to see male armor given codpieces and muscle cuirasses, to ensure equality in regards to sexualized armor.

Thoughts? Opinions? IMO it should be done.

booooooooooring

if you want a realistic medieval game, play one...

If you want over the top asian style, go play that...

ESO finds a nice middle ground.

Besides, male armor that is nit somehat redesigned to fit female bodies look like shttt on them...

I don't see how asking for some more gender-neutral options than those we have so far is bad, but m'kay :V

BlissfulDeluge

logarifmik wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

logarifmik wrote: »

iaminc wrote: »

Oh god , Please don’t bring the gender snowflake SJW mantra to ESO , it’s already ruining the planet enough.

It's not about SJ at all. It's about logic behind real so-called "heavy" armor.

Logic vs visual appeal? Guess which one wins in a fantasy universe...

I quite like how some heavy armours make my character more feminine

And how beautiful piece of Jeanne d'Arc armor is not visually appealing to you, I wonder? Only because it doesn't demonstrate some obvious women... things? Bah! Do you ever gave a thought, why real breastplates have such bulgy shape? There is certain logic behind it, which keeps its users alive, I mind you.

To cut it short, there is quite comprehensive video regarding the issue on Shadiversity channel.

I watched that video when I was doing research for this. Not that I don't think tittyplate could become prevalent in fantasy settings where women are more often sent to war, cus I mean.... as I said, codpieces were a thing.

But if we're gonna have bustplates, then god damnit, I WANT MY CODPIECE!

BlissfulDeluge

Mettaricana wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

This might be seen as low-effort, and I was gonna write an essay on the validity of gendered armor, but I don't have the time for it. So here's a TL;DR version of that.

I'm not gonna ask to change cloth-/leather-armor that necessitates different armor versions for men and women to cover up certain fEaTuReS, but honestly, can we get to see less of the tittyplate-trope? Some gender-neutral armor?

Preferably I'd like to see all heavy armor replaced with the gender-neutral male version with the flat chest, since any heavy armor worn has gambesons beneath, which make tittyshapes redundant, no matter how aesthetically pleasing they may or may not be. This wouldn't be a difficult task, logistically speaking, because the models for flat-chested armor already exist. You'd just have to make male versions of heavy armor appear on both male and female characters.

If gender-neutral armor is too big a request, I'd like to see male armor given codpieces and muscle cuirasses, to ensure equality in regards to sexualized armor.

Thoughts? Opinions? IMO it should be done.

Everthing from imperial city motif through wrothgar war gender neutral armor no boobieplates etc daggerfall, ebonheart, mercenary, aldmeri style could barely tell gender of character. Also players like you are why we lost the
Original reguard and original orc motif styles and got the elven hero armor thighs censored always got something to be ticked about when it comes to visuals...

This is the original Orc heavy armor.



Do kindly explain to me what is so great about this. Is it the almost PG-13 cleavage? Do give me your reasoning, cus I am assuming it is the almost PG-13 cleavage.

starkerealm

Cloudtrader wrote: »

I absolutely want to see more sexualized men's armor. It is an incredibly sexist double standard that there are only a few bits of male-specific armor in the game that emphasize skin or sexy characteristics for them. It would be nice to have more female armor that is more neutral, too.

Right now we've got Sai's outfit, Gladiator Armor, and Dark Shaman. And that's pretty much it. Or at least, if there are others, I can't remember them.

zaria

max_only wrote: »

Please also add super slinky male armor too. I need everything the male High Elves and male Castanics wear in Tera.

Plenty of slinky armor for men in ESO, in fact they win hands down because ladies are required to have an bra.

Is an obvious one, Fang lair and Mazzatun is two others, lots more but this is the three I think off.
Tera is not ESO, its much more of an anime look.

Noxavian

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

This might be seen as low-effort, and I was gonna write an essay on the validity of gendered armor, but I don't have the time for it. So here's a TL;DR version of that.

I'm not gonna ask to change cloth-/leather-armor that necessitates different armor versions for men and women to cover up certain fEaTuReS, but honestly, can we get to see less of the tittyplate-trope? Some gender-neutral armor?

Preferably I'd like to see all heavy armor replaced with the gender-neutral male version with the flat chest, since any heavy armor worn has gambesons beneath, which make tittyshapes redundant, no matter how aesthetically pleasing they may or may not be. This wouldn't be a difficult task, logistically speaking, because the models for flat-chested armor already exist. You'd just have to make male versions of heavy armor appear on both male and female characters.

If gender-neutral armor is too big a request, I'd like to see male armor given codpieces and muscle cuirasses, to ensure equality in regards to sexualized armor.

Thoughts? Opinions? IMO it should be done.

yikes

BigBragg

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

This might be seen as low-effort, and I was gonna write an essay on the validity of gendered armor, but I don't have the time for it. So here's a TL;DR version of that.

I'm not gonna ask to change cloth-/leather-armor that necessitates different armor versions for men and women to cover up certain fEaTuReS, but honestly, can we get to see less of the tittyplate-trope? Some gender-neutral armor?

Preferably I'd like to see all heavy armor replaced with the gender-neutral male version with the flat chest, since any heavy armor worn has gambesons beneath, which make tittyshapes redundant, no matter how aesthetically pleasing they may or may not be. This wouldn't be a difficult task, logistically speaking, because the models for flat-chested armor already exist. You'd just have to make male versions of heavy armor appear on both male and female characters.

If gender-neutral armor is too big a request, I'd like to see male armor given codpieces and muscle cuirasses, to ensure equality in regards to sexualized armor.

Thoughts? Opinions? IMO it should be done.

Everthing from imperial city motif through wrothgar war gender neutral armor no boobieplates etc daggerfall, ebonheart, mercenary, aldmeri style could barely tell gender of character. Also players like you are why we lost the
Original reguard and original orc motif styles and got the elven hero armor thighs censored always got something to be ticked about when it comes to visuals...

This is the original Orc heavy armor.



Do kindly explain to me what is so great about this. Is it the almost PG-13 cleavage? Do give me your reasoning, cus I am assuming it is the almost PG-13 cleavage.

PG-13? Come on now, you can see more skin in a Disney film.

logarifmik

[removed quote]
Are you serious? It doesn't mean, that basic rules of world development and logic are any different from ours. And why shouldn't I compare those two? Fantasy is based on the real life, okay? I have every right to do so.

kind_hero

[removed quote]

While I agree with you and how armors were back in their time, in this game, we have 3 types of armor. On a real battlefield, you would not chose a silk robe over a full plate suit, because the silk will not deflect a sword hit, while a steel plate will.

But since we have light and medium armors, which are more like outfits, they should be gender different in terms of fashion. Maybe the plate does not have to be, even though the Romans had armors that copied the shape of the human torso.

What I loved in ESO from the begining, before outfits and costumes, was how natural the "fashion" was (except the hip flaps which I have always disliked). My main is a female char, but I do not like her to wear skimpy clothes, or bikini plate and high heels like in some Asian games. ESO did a good job in the past with their motifs and costumes. Now they have lost some of their creativity, the recent ones are mostly copies of the old ones or just not interesting.

Regarding outfits I have 2 requests - hide shoulders and add variants without flaps for each motif, or stop creating motifs with floating hip flaps

KillsAllElves

[removed quote]
Fantasy is not based on the real life! Otherwise it wouldnt be a fantasy trip. Fantasy - the faculty or activity of imagining things, especially things that are "impossible" or "improbable". ≠ the real world. You need to get a better argument.

If you want to compare two things not equal then magic spells and monsters should be taken out of the game to bring it closer to our reality. Youre trying to compare apples and oranges, real life and fantasy games are not equal to each other.

Dont talk about logic when you keep misusing the term.

Mik195

And can we get a the option to put the male version on golden saint on my female characters? If ZOS is going to force ugly shows off too much costumes for saint/seducer, I either want the male costumes to be just as horrible or I want my female characters to be able to use the current male costumes.

starkerealm

zaria wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Please also add super slinky male armor too. I need everything the male High Elves and male Castanics wear in Tera.

Plenty of slinky armor for men in ESO, in fact they win hands down because ladies are required to have an bra.

Is an obvious one, Fang lair and Mazzatun is two others, lots more but this is the three I think off.
Tera is not ESO, its much more of an anime look.

InvictusApollo

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

This might be seen as low-effort, and I was gonna write an essay on the validity of gendered armor, but I don't have the time for it. So here's a TL;DR version of that.

I'm not gonna ask to change cloth-/leather-armor that necessitates different armor versions for men and women to cover up certain fEaTuReS, but honestly, can we get to see less of the tittyplate-trope? Some gender-neutral armor?

Preferably I'd like to see all heavy armor replaced with the gender-neutral male version with the flat chest, since any heavy armor worn has gambesons beneath, which make tittyshapes redundant, no matter how aesthetically pleasing they may or may not be. This wouldn't be a difficult task, logistically speaking, because the models for flat-chested armor already exist. You'd just have to make male versions of heavy armor appear on both male and female characters.

If gender-neutral armor is too big a request, I'd like to see male armor given codpieces and muscle cuirasses, to ensure equality in regards to sexualized armor.

Thoughts? Opinions? IMO it should be done.

Everthing from imperial city motif through wrothgar war gender neutral armor no boobieplates etc daggerfall, ebonheart, mercenary, aldmeri style could barely tell gender of character. Also players like you are why we lost the
Original reguard and original orc motif styles and got the elven hero armor thighs censored always got something to be ticked about when it comes to visuals...

This is the original Orc heavy armor.



Do kindly explain to me what is so great about this. Is it the almost PG-13 cleavage? Do give me your reasoning, cus I am assuming it is the almost PG-13 cleavage.

It looks nice. With proper dies I could cover poor low quality textures and make something pretty out of it.




[removed quote]

Are you serious? In real life there are no elves. Were not running aroundd in metal armor fighting creatures from other realms while wielding a staff and casting magic destruction and healing spells. although i hear LARP'rs heal with insulin.

Dont compare a fantasy swords and sorcery game with real life.

If you want armor that doesnt show sweater puppets make a character that is flat chested or appearance change token. Just dont use the wood elf, theyre very bouyant.[/quote]
Are you serious? It doesn't mean, that basic rules of world development and logic are any different from ours. And why shouldn't I compare those two? Fantasy is based on the real life, okay? I have every right to do so.[/quote]

Well if realism and immersion are so important yo you, then I would like to ask you one thing: why aren't you against it that there are so many female frontline soldiers in Tamriel? You do know that women are far too valuable for a society to send them to war, right? A society can lose 90% of it's male population and still recover. But had it lost 90% of females it would need to abduct females from other societies to have any chance at recovery. That is why historically women were rarely seen on battlefields. And since they were so few, then obviously there was little demand for female specific armor. And since there was such low demand, then we can assume that craftsmen had little experience in manufacturing boobplates. Now ask yourself: if you had to commision an armor for your daughter, would you tell her: "honey just squeeze them" or would you make craftsman try inventing new technology and possibly fail?


However lets assume that smiths have mastered the technology of creating boobplates. And by boobplate I mean an armor that covers entire body and has distinctive bulges in front to let women feel more comfortable or preetier. Lets discuss their advantages.
The first reason why it would be beneficial to wear them is as follows. During battle would you prefer to be captured or killed? Obviously captured. Now tell me: who is more likely to be captured: a man who is basically useless as a captive or a female who can be forced to do certain things that I leave to your imagination? Sure there are people who believe that those things are worse than death, but I believe that nothing is. I know that I'm talking about horrible things, but that's war.

One more thing. Exposing feminity on the battlefield through a boobplate has another effect that may increase survival chances of a woman. Bragging rights. Even in our modern society it is rather pathetic to brag about defeating/killing a woman. Back then when most people considered women to be physically weak, it would be a major stain on someones honor.

And last but not least: who in medieval times was considered to be physically weaker: a man or a woman? We can safely assume that some attackers would underestimate woman's strenght and prowess at combat. And who has the advantage when an enemy underestimates you? Who is more likely to make mistakes?

Sure that those are all just slight advantages. But when it is your very life at stake, then you should take any advantage you can.