PTS Update 24 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

MartiniDaniels

SilverPaws wrote: »

They should have just revert stamdk dots to update 22 and it would be better than this, but I guess better than nothing...

I'm waiting for some magDK to check, because if magDK ardent flame abilites received same nerf to direct damage part.. it will be ouch.

JusticeSouldier

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Thnx to the person thst first posted this animation when the farse with poop fist started.

Good example of nice designed animation. This one showed at .gif is nice for stamblade identity.

EpicPwnBacon

I would like to see stonefist become a 5 meter melee spammable
I like the idea of the DK keeping to close range, and as the skill name implies "stonefist", I would imagine that you use your fist of stone to punch your enemy rather than throwing a rock.

Lets keep the heal morph the same, I could see a mag dk using some magic to infuse a rock and hurling it.

Mesh

The changes for dragonknights (combustion and searing heat) and in general (20% dot buffs and revision of items with dot) strengthen the attrition class identity, try to fix the problem of the dot-meta and show that our feedback is heard for your considerations, thank you (@ZOS_GinaBruno )!
One idea: Could poison injection not also be covered by searing heat as it is a dot and a poison stamina ability already profiteering from dk's world in ruin?

Xvorg

I don't dislike a 15 mts spammable, but it MUST be something different than the rock. My suggestions:

1. Jumping punch (the one @GeorgeBlack shows)
2. Falcon Punch (like the classic falcon punch, but this one being a 5mts skill)
3. Power Geyser (Terry Bogard's signature move in Fatal Fury/KoF)
4. PoE's Impale (rock shards from the ground)

relentless_turnip

I am actually overall pretty happy with this 👍
The cost increases are still a bit crap, but overall I think the dot nerf had to happen and we came out alright 😁

I also think its important to give good feedback as well as constructive. Believe me before I saw these notes it was well beyond constructive 😂

Well done ZOS👍🥳🎉

MartiniDaniels

It is interesting how Protective Plate and Ball of Lightning can exist in same patch, when both classes were reviewed in U24 for class identity. BoL have at least double of Wings functionality for similar cost.

Both provide snare/immobilization immunity for 2 seconds.

3 seconds of projectile immunity is comparable to 50% projectile damage reduction for 6 seconds. (though immunity is better because sorc avoids debuffs from projectiles while DK receives all of them)

Here Wings functionality ends (12% healing received passive is provided by volatile armor on 99% of DK builds, both mag and stam).
But BoL main functionality only begins - stun + gap closer + escape tool. For 270 more magicka.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

GeorgeBlack

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It is interesting how Protective Plate and Ball of Lightning can exist in same patch, when both classes were reviewed in U24 for class identity. BoL have at least double of Wings functionality for similar cost.

Both provide snare/immobilization immunity for 2 seconds.

3 seconds of projectile immunity is comparable to 50% projectile damage reduction for 6 seconds. (though immunity is better because sorc avoids debuffs from projectiles while DK receives all of them)

Here Wings functionality ends (12% healing received passive is provided by volatile armor on 99% of DK builds, both mag and stam).
But BoL main functionality only begins - stun + gap closer + escape tool. For 270 more magicka.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Double standards.

BattleAxe

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I am actually overall pretty happy with this 👍
The cost increases are still a bit crap, but overall I think the dot nerf had to happen and we came out alright 😁

I also think its important to give good feedback as well as constructive. Believe me before I saw these notes it was well beyond constructive 😂

Well done ZOS👍🥳🎉

Don’t mean to be a downer but just maybe they nerfed dots so much to cause an uproar when the plan was nerfing them by only 33% so it appears as if we were heard. I mean sdk have been calling out against stone giant since beginning of pts and have they really looked into it I included many have been asking for a stam morph for whip for a long time that would have been a slam dunk for the combat team but instead we are getting this physical damage flying turd skill. Sdk has been poison themed for awhile now so the common sense would have been give a poison spammable. With changes to molten armaments I’m sure dks both mag and stam will likely use that skill as it gives major brutality sorcery and heavy attacks deal 50% more damage on top of procing earthen heart passives stam generation ultimate and minor brutality

Hotdog_23

General feedback

First up I hate the increased skill cost for everyone. I believe the reason for this was because of all the target dummies videos that people where posting and show how well they could sustain. With duration reminders and a stationary target. When we on console have no true duration reminders. Some npc’s and bosses move around a lot causing the need to recast skills early. Not to mention other players in pvp areas are never standing still taking damage. The cost increase is not needed or fair in my opinion.

Dk feed back

Ardent flame

Nice to see the increase to time to Fiery Breath and searing strike. Again please add duration action reminder to base game for console players.
Searing heat passive – I like that they finally made the passive better but I fear a future nerf to it because some will say that it makes those skills hit to hard. When in reality they will only be 23% increase since the first 10% is just to get them up to current standards. This is the part that I fear will be forgotten by many where the request for nerfs come in.
Also would be nice if it applied to all of our DOT’s in class and not just 3 select skills.

Earthen Heart

Molten Weapons - Nice little buff but it would be nice if it increased our light attacks say 8-10% along with the heavy attack increase already in the skill. This would give some people a real reason to slot and use this skills.
Stonefist – I don’t understand people calls for a nerf to the distance down to 5 meters. I say it should keep its 28 meter range. What is so bad about a stamDK have an in class ranged attack. Of course change the animation for the love of god. I feel like I am throwing poop. Plus we need a visual clue as to how many stacks of stagger we have. BTW I hate these little mini games you are making in skills now.

Another thing about the decreased range is this will hurt DK healers. Yes I know they are very very rarely even found. Since similar other skills like BOL and matriarch heals are 28 meters.

“Reduced the duration of the stacks to 5 seconds per application” is a little too much 8 seconds would be enough I think. So we can carry the buff over to our other bar.

BattleAxe

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

General feedback

First up I hate the increased skill cost for everyone. I believe the reason for this was because of all the target dummies videos that people where posting and show how well they could sustain. With duration reminders and a stationary target. When we on console have no true duration reminders. Some npc’s and bosses move around a lot causing the need to recast skills early. Not to mention other players in pvp areas are never standing still taking damage. The cost increase is not needed or fair in my opinion.

Dk feed back

Ardent flame

Nice to see the increase to time to Fiery Breath and searing strike. Again please add duration action reminder to base game for console players.
Searing heat passive – I like that they finally made the passive better but I fear a future nerf to it because some will say that it makes those skills hit to hard. When in reality they will only be 23% increase since the first 10% is just to get them up to current standards. This is the part that I fear will be forgotten by many where the request for nerfs come in.
Also would be nice if it applied to all of our DOT’s in class and not just 3 select skills.

Earthen Heart

Molten Weapons - Nice little buff but it would be nice if it increased our light attacks say 8-10% along with the heavy attack increase already in the skill. This would give some people a real reason to slot and use this skills.
Stonefist – I don’t understand people calls for a nerf to the distance down to 5 meters. I say it should keep its 28 meter range. What is so bad about a stamDK have an in class ranged attack. Of course change the animation for the love of god. I feel like I am throwing poop. Plus we need a visual clue as to how many stacks of stagger we have. BTW I hate these little mini games you are making in skills now.

Another thing about the decreased range is this will hurt DK healers. Yes I know they are very very rarely even found. Since similar other skills like BOL and matriarch heals are 28 meters.

“Reduced the duration of the stacks to 5 seconds per application” is a little too much 8 seconds would be enough I think. So we can carry the buff over to our other bar.

If I read the most recent patch notes correctly essentially the values of searing strike and fiery breath should be at about the values they at on live. What is bad about a range spammable on a dk is the class is a melee based class that would be like making a sorc crystal frag melee range.

relentless_turnip

Working out the numbers is super confusing based on their wording alone.

if you take burning embers for example they said in the original patch notes.
That it would be decreased by 60% per tick, but in 5.2.2 they have said overall damage would be improved by 20%.
They then went on to say that their aim was 33% reduction overall from live.

I assume we should take the bottom as they have stated it is their overall goal.
On the wording alone and taking my tool tip for embers I imagine the maths something like this(please correct me if i am wrong)

23563 / 12(current duration) = 1963 x 14(PTS duration) = 27490 x 0.67(-33%) = 18418 x 1.23(new searing heat passive)

= 22655 over 14 seconds

If you then take our new overall figure 22655 / 14(pts duration) = 1618 x 12(current duration)

= 19418 PTS damage at current duration

You could then:

23563 - 19418 = 4145 (this is roughly 18%) is our difference between live and PTS.

if all other DOTs are losing 33% and we ultimately lose 18% on our 2 most prominent DOT's it seems pretty fair.

Although if you look entropy/degeneration it will still do more than this figure(roughly 20K over 12 secs)

BattleAxe

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Working out the numbers is super confusing based on their wording alone.

if you take burning embers for example they said in the original patch notes.
That it would be decreased by 60% per tick, but in 5.2.2 they have said overall damage would be improved by 20%.
They then went on to say that their aim was 33% reduction overall from live.

I assume we should take the bottom as they have stated it is their overall goal.
On the wording alone and taking my tool tip for embers I imagine the maths something like this(please correct me if i am wrong)

23563 / 12(current duration) = 1963 x 14(PTS duration) = 27490 x 0.67(-33%) = 18418 x 1.23(new searing heat passive)

= 22655 over 14 seconds

If you then take our new overall figure 22655 / 14(pts duration) = 1618 x 12(current duration)

= 19418 PTS damage at current duration

You could then:

23563 - 19418 = 4145 (this is roughly 18%) is our difference between live and PTS.

if all other DOTs are losing 33% and we ultimately lose 18% on our 2 most prominent DOT's it seems pretty fair.

Although if you look entropy/degeneration it will still do more than this figure(roughly 20K over 12 secs)

The new searing heat is 33% so it should be 1.33 not 1.23

relentless_turnip

The new searing heat is 33% so it should be 1.33 not 1.23

That is true but the starting figure already had the 10% that is currently in effect👍 meaning I only could increase by 23%.

I think to get a truer figure I would need to deduct the 10% off of the starting figure

BattleAxe

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The new searing heat is 33% so it should be 1.33 not 1.23

That is true but the starting figure already had the 10% that is currently in effect👍 meaning I only could increase by 23%.

I think to get a truer figure I would need to deduct the 10% off of the starting figure

Also keep in mind the pts isn’t accurate yet as the dot changes haven’t been put in yet

relentless_turnip

BattleAxe wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The new searing heat is 33% so it should be 1.33 not 1.23

That is true but the starting figure already had the 10% that is currently in effect👍 meaning I only could increase by 23%.

I think to get a truer figure I would need to deduct the 10% off of the starting figure

Also keep in mind the pts isn’t accurate yet as the dot changes haven’t been put in yet

Yeah just speculative at the moment, but it looks overall to be pretty good👍

Davadin

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Stonefist – I don’t understand people calls for a nerf to the distance down to 5 meters. I say it should keep its 28 meter range. What is so bad about a stamDK have an in class ranged attack.

what's bad is having flight time that's harder to LA-weave or combo-burst for a melee class.

it's not bad for stamDK to have a ranged attack, but when we're promised a class-based SPAMMABLE, we expect a melee spammable.

because, we're a melee class.

afterward, we can talk about having ranged option later.

“Reduced the duration of the stacks to 5 seconds per application” is a little too much 8 seconds would be enough I think. So we can carry the buff over to our other bar.

not that ill ever need it personally, but i also dont understand the need to nerf it from 10 sec.

u want to give the morph a damage boost that can stack, great. it affects any kind of damage, awesome. and u even lower the stun-effect to 3, instead of 5, which refresh the timer everytime, cool.

so why nerf the duration by half? its only 135 damage for gods sake. let us make the best of it with other skill too....

BlackMadara

@Hotdog_23 the current 10% damage from searing heat does not bring the dots up to standard. This is a common misconception. It does indeed make the Ardent flame DoTs deal 10% more damage than the base standard when including initial hit damage and its total dps. The base standard for DoTs is determined by their total dps over duration with no passives taken into account

goldenarcher1

Searing Heat:

Fixed an issue where Rank II of this ability was applying its damage done to all Ardent Flame abilities, rather than only the listed ones.
Increased the damage bonus to 33% from 10% to help distinguish the Dragonknight’s Damage over Time abilities as superior to others.

Does this mean that the direct damage part of Noxious Breath will be buffed by 23% as well as dot?

the1andonlyskwex

Can someone with PTS access (I'm on PS4) explain how Obsidian Shard is affected by the Stonefist range changes?

I assume the range from caster to enemy target is reduced, but is the radius from enemy target to friendly target also reduced? If the radius is reduced, Obsidian Shard is going to be borderline useless for healing ranged DPS.

Bowser

Davadin wrote: »

not that ill ever need it personally, but i also dont understand the need to nerf it from 10 sec.

u want to give the morph a damage boost that can stack, great. it affects any kind of damage, awesome. and u even lower the stun-effect to 3, instead of 5, which refresh the timer everytime, cool.

so why nerf the duration by half? its only 135 damage for gods sake. let us make the best of it with other skill too....

They dont want tanks using it.

Hotdog_23

BlackMadara wrote: »

@Hotdog_23 the current 10% damage from searing heat does not bring the dots up to standard. This is a common misconception. It does indeed make the Ardent flame DoTs deal 10% more damage than the base standard when including initial hit damage and its total dps. The base standard for DoTs is determined by their total dps over duration with no passives taken into account

My bad, I thought in a previous patch the passive was used to bring them up to standards. I stand corrected, Thanks

Grandesdar

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Thnx to the person thst first posted this animation when the farse with poop fist started.

Good example of nice designed animation. This one showed at .gif is nice for stamblade identity.

Yes, please make this skill for DKs, I'll use it no matter the cost or the damage! Boy, it's so cool to look at.

JusticeSouldier

Grandesdar wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Thnx to the person thst first posted this animation when the farse with poop fist started.

Good example of nice designed animation. This one showed at .gif is nice for stamblade identity.

Yes, please make this skill for DKs, I'll use it no matter the cost or the damage! Boy, it's so cool to look at.

it doesn't fit dk's style. It's nightblade like thing

Ragnarock41

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Thnx to the person thst first posted this animation when the farse with poop fist started.

Good example of nice designed animation. This one showed at .gif is nice for stamblade identity.

Yes, please make this skill for DKs, I'll use it no matter the cost or the damage! Boy, it's so cool to look at.

it doesn't fit dk's style. It's nightblade like thing

Nightblade's class identity is quite literally the opposite of making a flashy entrance.

Ragnarock41

Bowser wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

not that ill ever need it personally, but i also dont understand the need to nerf it from 10 sec.

u want to give the morph a damage boost that can stack, great. it affects any kind of damage, awesome. and u even lower the stun-effect to 3, instead of 5, which refresh the timer everytime, cool.

so why nerf the duration by half? its only 135 damage for gods sake. let us make the best of it with other skill too....

They dont want tanks using it.

If they want stamDKs to utilize the stagger mechanic then it should scale with weapon damage/max stam rather than being a flat amount. That would allow them to give it a proper uptime without the fear of Dk tanks overshadowing stamDk. And a max cap on the extra damage to make sure its balanced easily.

Just like how they did with engulfing flames, Idk why its so hard to figure out for them especially considering they did it well for magDk.

Davadin

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Thnx to the person thst first posted this animation when the farse with poop fist started.

Good example of nice designed animation. This one showed at .gif is nice for stamblade identity.

Yes, please make this skill for DKs, I'll use it no matter the cost or the damage! Boy, it's so cool to look at.

it doesn't fit dk's style. It's nightblade like thing

i agree the teleporting COULD be a nightblade thing, but the big ass fiery explosion in the exit and entrance screams Dragon Knight

Davadin

Grandesdar wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Thnx to the person thst first posted this animation when the farse with poop fist started.

Good example of nice designed animation. This one showed at .gif is nice for stamblade identity.

Yes, please make this skill for DKs, I'll use it no matter the cost or the damage! Boy, it's so cool to look at.

i would too. not just the fiery stuff but the crack on the ground reminds me of Leap.

Suryoyo

Nothing makes sense from their standardisation/audit etc:

• Fiery breath base cost 3510 and 5 meters range at base
  • tick damage reduced by 47%
• Searing strike base cost 2970 and 10 meters at base
  • tick damage reduced by 60%

Range DOT accessible to everyone:

• Entropy base cost 2700 and 28 meters range
  • tick damage reduced by 50%
• Soul trap base cost 2700 28 meters range
  • tick damage reduced by 50%

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam
DK's DOTs, despite being melee DOTs receive the same treatment than those range dots accessible to all, if not worse.
Is this because of the direct damage part of DK's DOT ? seriously ?
Why a cost increase ? Why ZOS is nerfing DK's melee DOTs as much as range DOTs if not worse ?

JusticeSouldier

Suryoyo wrote: »

Nothing makes sense from their standardisation/audit etc:

• Fiery breath base cost 3510 and 5 meters range at base
  • tick damage reduced by 47%
• Searing strike base cost 2970 and 10 meters at base
  • tick damage reduced by 60%

Range DOT accessible to everyone:

• Entropy base cost 2700 and 28 meters range
  • tick damage reduced by 50%
• Soul trap base cost 2700 28 meters range
  • tick damage reduced by 50%

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam
DK's DOTs, despite being melee DOTs receive the same treatment than those range dots accessible to all, if not worse.
Is this because of the direct damage part of DK's DOT ? seriously ?
Why a cost increase ? Why ZOS is nerfing DK's melee DOTs as much as range DOTs if not worse ?

I'm always wondered when hear these "standarts".
Standart should count also another things, like is it Melee or Range one, secondary effects, what toolkit have current class with it in general and another things.

I'm absolutly sure, melee one should be always stronger than range one because of the real combat limits it means.
Also, should be couinted secondary effects.

if this is aoe, which apply single target dots on everyone (it's now Carve, Breath), it should:
1. deal less damage than single target one
2. have higher cost
3. bigger area - less damage
4. melee one stronger than range one

if to say about aoe, which ticks every minute and deal damage only while targets are inside - it should be:
1. higher damage than maybe even single target dots, because target can leave it easily
2. high cost to prevent spam of them everywhere by everyone (like frost aoe spamming wardens, which are last few years most hatefull creatures in PvP)
3. the bigger is area - the smaller damage per tick
4. with counting secondary effects as a things to regulate class balance and damage between different area of effect dots in general. here: buffs, debuffs, synergies, healing etc

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Read this thread please, it's topic is actual question from the first day when u used sentence "our aoe/dots etc standart"...