PTS Update 24 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

Beffagorn

Seriously, what are Stamdks even supposed to be anymore?

From weapon swinging grunt with a generic poison theme to...rock throwing poisonous troglodyte?

What is this Stonefist even supposed to accomplish? It's absolutely terrible. It neither gives stamdks new gameplay options via a spammable nor gives the class somewhat of an identity.

I'll give you an hint from where (imo) this whole "class identity" thing should start for Stamdks.

"These skillful masters-at-arms use the ancient Akaviri martial tradition of battle-spirit, and wield fearsome magic that pounds, shatters and physically alters the world around them."

DanStartheFirst

devilsTear wrote: »

So.. You guys mis Wrobel yet?

In all actuality, Yes :P

Starlock

I'm on console, so I can't PTS, but to offer a few thoughts:

• While reducing the effectiveness of dragonknight DoT abilities is in line with the overall design goal of adjusting standards for DoT abilities, it is pretty awkward when implemented on a class characterized by DoT abilities. Which goal should take precedence here? Standardizing DoTs class-wide or maintaining what many players perceive as a key component of dragonknight class identity? What role do dragonknight passives play in all this?
• The ardent flame changes will be a little rough for my character, but he's also magicka-melee and therefore has a hard time restoring magicka because he can't do it through heavy attacks. This mainly draws further attention to the need for a magicka-melee weapon line as several classes would benefit from this. The dragonknight would especially, because the class certainly doesn't evoke "I use a staff" on the visuals department.
• While the new stonefist looks interesting, the "stagger" mechanic is going to be extremely underwhelming in PvE contexts. Standard mobs are going to be dead (or very nearly so) by the time they have 5 stacks of stagger on them to activate the stun, making the mechanic pointless (doubly so against boss types which can't be stunned anyway). Please make stagger meaningful for something other than PvP.

LonePirate

What is really sad about these changes is that Gilliam’s main character on PC NA for a long time was a Mag DK for DC. I ran into him in Cyrodiil many times. The fact that he signed off on these DK changes is absolutely mystifying to me. I’d like to see him post here or start up a stream and explain himself. DKs have no significant burst damage. DKs now have no significant DOT damage. What do they have? Where is the balance? How do they think DKs are anywhere close to being competitive now? All I see is pure incompetence with these changes. Shame.

Kronuxx

First of all, stone fist is A S S on PTS. It's clunky, underwhelming in its animation, and doesn't fit with the melee playstyle of DK's. Second: why are you guys even bothering telling ZOS what should be done? I've been in this game on and off for 5 years and I'll say this:

ZOS is incompetent, they have no goal-oriented direction, out of touch, and they don't care. I'm done dealing with them. I have better things to do anyway than waste my time playing a game with pendulum swinging changes to abilities that didn't need them. I suggest you all do the same.

StShoot

devilsTear wrote: »

So.. You guys mis Wrobel yet?

no because the dk went downhill with and without wrobel.
We lost more under wrobels lead than the new dev team could ever take away from us (mostly because there is nothing left to take xD)

Nirntrotter

I wonder if it'd be a good idea to overhaul some of our passives to make the attrition playstyle a little more pronounced than it is right now. That way the base dots would still be uniform, and the passives would then make them stand out.

RandomName123

devilsTear wrote: »

So.. You guys mis Wrobel yet?

Never in a million years would I have thought I'd say it, but I'd easily take him over this.. and I had very little good to say about Wrobel

Narvuntien

MagDK
My DPS parse (3mil self buffed) was 35K on live
and on PTS the best I could do was just under 30K I played around with some new build setups wasn't able to improve it.

My opinion is that the nerfs were too big can I get some damage back onto engulfing flames and burning embers Perhaps only a 40% damage reduction from live rather than 47 and 60 respectively. I also wouldn't say no to less of a nerf on scalding rune (50% from live rather than 60%)

On Live the Magicka sustain on Entropy was kind of insane, that I didn't really have to think about it (something that has rarely been a thing for MagDks).

I removed Eruption from my bar last patch but I put it back on the PTS but I found that its duration of 18 second is extremely awkward now with the new durations of the skills. Can we get its duration reduced to 14/15 and cost reduced a bit.

Dan_Fazzyub17_ESO

Really not sure why the class DoT abilities were hit so hard. They really weren't over performing compared to the two reworked DoTs that were introduced last patch and now with these heavy handed nerfs both become so lackluster one would have to think about even slotting them. Embers will still be used but the damage and healing from it will now be utter garbage. This patch talked about class identity and it just seems to have missed the mark by so much on classes expected to get some and now classes with existing identity by way of these DoT nerfs. I understand there were a few DoTs were over performing, based on their damage and the accessibility of them to literally everyone, but was a 50% nerf to rest of them really necessary?

I also don't understand the cost increases to all of these abilities as well. Wasn't nerfing the damage this hard discouraging their use enough? I'm not sure where you guys think we get these resources from but MagDK sustain was already hit pretty hard last patch and now it's about to get even worse. The more I think about this next patch the more I feel like DK is once again going to fall to the wayside. DK, for both Mag and Stam, has always been about the great DoT pressure available to them to wear down their opponents. This class does not have an execute nor does it have tremendous burst potential built into the class outside of certain monster helms and weapon skill lines and now that one of those weapon skill line abilities and it's signature DoT pressure appears to be all but gone what is DK to do in PvP?

Let's not even get started on Stam DK's Rocks either. I understand maybe not wanting to give them a full on Stam Whip but there was a REAL CHANCE for you guys to re-work Stone Fist as a whole into a similar single target spammable for them, especially with the knowledge that Dizzying Swing was getting gutted, and you did...just about nothing. You didn't change the animation to anything visually appealing, the damage is horrendous, and for what the ability costs for the stagger stacks to actually stun someone with it seems so impractical. This change in general just seems very...lazy.

I'm very worried for where the class I've played since beta is going to be after this current patch. The only saving grace is the PTS cycles to come where we can hopefully fix a lot of these changes.

P.S. - Standardization changes like these will ruin the game when standardization of abilities takes precedence over the overall class identity. In this case, standardizing all DoTs to function the same in terms of cost/damage to a class that historically is known for it's superb DoT pressure and secondary effects to these DoTs. I understand it's easy on your ends as devs to make changes in the future but you are DESTROYING class identity and play styles in the process.

lucky_Sage

DK dots are way to weak to be a DoT class 450 ticks. your base hp regen is will out heal it. DoTs are now back to being useless. i understand standardizing will help with balance but DK DoTs should be rule breakers because they are the DoT brusiers all classes easly get the dks tankyness nothing stands out with dk.
the new stam spammable should be melee not some awkward mid range attack that doesn't synergize with class doesn't weave smooth with melee weapons just like magdk abilties don't weave smooth with staff. stonefist needs to be melee. and the wierd 5 attacks is a stun is just dumb it should be 3 stacks and do something with dots maybe a poison explosion or increase dot dmg per stack.
why is it that all unique dk abilites aren't used for there main purpose.
wings is trash only used for snare/root immune
dk group should only used for major mending
talons atleast for me is only used for minor maim roots are almost usless now everyone can have root immune and even if the don't the get out can cant be rooted for a while, (roots where broken but now almost worthless)

Kalixte

Here is my feedback after testing Stamina Dragonknight on the PTS, as a PvPer.
Firsly, Stone Giant is a really bad spammable: high cost (3,4k stamina while wearing 5 heavy 2 medium), secondary effect really unreliable (not able to use its CC when you need, this kind of CC shouldn't even exist tbh) and awful animation. Literally looks like you send some dry poop to the face of your ennemy.
Secondly, and it is more an overall thing but it does hurt DK really badly, DOTs were nerfed way too much. 6k damage on Blood Craze (yeah it's not a DK skill, but it is the only one that I remember after testing, DK ones should be close to this value) on a full damage build? Come on. There is actually no point using them in PvP right now, just a waste of ressources (yeah because their cost being higher now as well).
So what Stam DK have now? A [snip] spammable, 0 DOT (what used to participate to their class identity btw) cause totally useless, no more Dizzying Swing because the cast time makes it not worth the 10% increased damage from Off Balance. Back to One Hand & Shield I guess, with 80% of non class skills?
My suggestion: make Stone Giant a Stamina CC and give us an other spammable. Yes the one we are asking for years, a poison Whip. Would make way more sense regarding the corresponding skill lines, passives wise. Plus, Whip morphs' secondary effects are so much more interesting than a random CC every 5 hits (Heal/Increased Spell and Weapon Damage). DOTs problem need to be adressed once more: between 10k and 12k DOT damage for my previous example, Blood Craze, would be the sweet spot to have a decent impact in PvP without being overpowered. Basically about 10-15% more than Elsweyr.
Finally, dear devs, can I advise you to stop going from an extreme to the other?
PS and out of purpose: Why the hell does Soul Trap do 10k damage when other simple DOTs (with only the condition of having a target I mean) do 5k damage less? Same for Entropy btw. Makes 0 sense.

[Edited for profanity]

Rhaegar75

a quick question...I'm a noob Dk given that I've always mained templars.
How am I supposed to actually kill another player if my main tools (dots) has been weakened?

Sanguinor2

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

a quick question...I'm a noob Dk given that I've always mained templars.
How am I supposed to actually kill another player if my main tools (dots) has been weakened?

Hope someone is actually bad enough to die to FoO hitting as the same time as Whip I guess? Well you could also Combo it with Inhale (not that it will help much against anyone remotely competent but hey I tried).

The_Lex

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

a quick question...I'm a noob Dk given that I've always mained templars.
How am I supposed to actually kill another player if my main tools (dots) has been weakened?

You can use harsh language

Xsorus

I'll sum up how bad Stam DK dots are on PTS

VMA Two hander is almost triple the amount of damage of Searing Strike

Viper Set does more damage then Searing Strike now as well.

Amoureros

Hey Dev, after some test, I agree with DOT being x1.25 of spammable but melee DOT need to be a bit more stronger. It should be like x1.4

BlackMadara

Another point I'd like addressed is the Scaled Armor passive. You have made armor bonuses for resistances include both, why not this passive? It would help with DK tankiness, and ease the blow of using light armor with protective.

Canned_Apples

The reduced dot damage and increased cost should've only for generic dots, not class dots.
Dots only became a problem when they increased the damage by 1000% for every dot in game.

I love how they say that Scalebreaker opened the door for different builds, with a straight face, but all class builds on Alcast and others all use the same generic dot setups. Yeah, Scalebreaker introduced tons of build diversity.....


Giant Stone does little to help a stamDK's identity. It is a terrible spammable with little to no VFX. A Poison Whip would've been a better choice...but I doubt they can do it unless they can make Molten Whip scale with magicka or stamina + cost magicka or stamina and have a different visual effect for both (depending on which stat is higher) which is highly unlikely to happen.

They'd also need to make the icon and skill name change, like Flame Lash does when it procs, depending on which stat is higher.

to sum up, Giant Stone =/= Class Identity

Gahmerdohn

• As DK healer the increase of the target healed by Obsidian Shard was a great addition.
  
• now while you are still looking at the DK can you take a look at Cinder Storm?
  
  Maybe give it a synergy? bigger size?
  
• and Cauterize one more tick, little shield when it heals an ally?
  
  just to make the DK healer feel a bit more useful, Dk healer with a focus on shielding more than healing would make it something great and with a clear identity.

Orchish

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

a quick question...I'm a noob Dk given that I've always mained templars.
How am I supposed to actually kill another player if my main tools (dots) has been weakened?

I've been a DK since beta and i can't even give you the answer to that if these changes go through. Not just the dots but Stam DK used many out of class abilities with knock back gone from Dizzy they seriously expect us to spam a high cost range skill such as stonefist 5 times for a stun? It's laughable.

Zer0_CooL

Since there was sayd ZOS is focusing on class identety, i wonder whats suposed to be the DKs identety?

Speaking as a MagDk, with a low burst damage potential, no execute, no serious ranged skills, low movability, and now even weak DoTs (regardless if its goin to be a 60% or 30% nerf), where exactly do you see the strenght of the dk?

Austinseph1

The attrition based class style isn’t being done any favors by the overall reduction in dots and the sustain issues that my magdk always had. The flame breath scaling doesn’t seem to be affected by some flame only damage buffs like ele succession as well so it gets overshadowed in group support mechanically by straight weapon damage sets that show in tooltips. Magdk survivability was also linked to searing strike and with the damage reduction it has also inadvertently taken a double hit from the dot standards so maybe a a slight adjustment could help because the skill also has a higher cost now as well. Overall the class seems to lack in the sustainability department because so many of the used skills are dots and they have a high cost with lowered benefits. This class in particular will have a hard time keeping up a sustainable rotation while also being able to slot enough weapon damage to get the actual 10% flame breath buff.

Banana

Maybe its time to try 3 proc sets again

Somewhere

This is currently from live:


This is after toying around a bit on the PTS:


Both are using a combination of Elemental Succession and Imperfect Siroria.

The only reason I was able to sustain this the way I did was with Spell Symmetry. I cast it once every time just before I had to cast Eruption. The bonus return on magicka is nice, but the reduced cost on a skill with a near 5000 magicka cost is useful for sustaining. Nevertheless, the magicka drain is still 100 points higher per second on PTS than live. On live I can sustain a mixture of Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Eruption, Unstable Wall, Flames of Oblivion, Degeneration, Scalding Rune, and Destructive Reach with relative ease. On the PTS, I dropped Scalding Rune and Destructive Reach, as their damage barely registers, and Molten Whip deals more damage when we factor in the passive bonuses Molten Whip grants.

More frustratingly Burning Embers and Engulfing Flames have dropped significantly, to the degree that Flames of Oblivion outperforms both these skills individually by a significant margin while also costing less magicka. The value that these two class skills is very low characterized by:

low damage, low range, medium/low sustainability. So the question is: what's the point? Got nothing else to run I suppose.

Ironically, the class which the developers have consistently reinforced in patch notes comments as the "attrition class" isn't really doing a great job of displaying that feature. Burning Embers is ultimately, dealing probably as much if not less damage than it did in the past, but costs over 2 times as much as it now costs about 2500, when it used to cost closer to 1200.

The change to make Engulfing Flame's fire damage bonus scale on the caster's Spell Damage is clever and may encourage the addition of a token magicka dragonknight to the party. Time will tell if this is enough to justify bringing a mDK DD, or if groups will simply drop the skill and encourage more stamina DD.

I do think the increased damage should scale a bit more quickly than 1%/333 Spell Damage, perhaps closer to 300 or 275. Given a lot of builds will relax in the 2500-3000 spell damage range for content short of trials, it seems a shame that any mDK DD should be unable to claim the full 10% of their skill.

GeorgeBlack

Mag sorc gets Critical surge to pew pew heal while gaining maj sorcery.

Dk gets nerfs and crap Molten arms and a joke of a Stone Fist.

Then we have the dots treated like generic abilities after being baptised the attrition class.

Zos just buffs/nerfs abilities every 3 months by 60%
and reworks 4 abilities as well and they call it a day.

Not to mention performance.


Ye.. I dont see any improvements for stamDK.

highnds

I think we all need to wait for the next few PTS cycles to pass before we are all up in arms about the class identity situation for DK. IMO, from the looks of it, they are making all DoT abilities reflect similar damage first just so they can set themselves up to figure out a baseline on how much they should increase the damage of class DoT abilities over non-class DoT abilities for the next few PTS cycles for update 24. Am I correct in saying this @ZOS_GinaBruno?

Sanguinor2

highnds wrote: »

I think we all need to wait for the next few PTS cycles to pass before we are all up in arms about the class identity situation for DK. IMO, from the looks of it, they are making all DoT abilities reflect similar damage first just so they can set themselves up to figure out a baseline on how much they should increase the damage of class DoT abilities over non-class DoT abilities for the next few PTS cycles for update 24. Am I correct in saying this @ZOS_GinaBruno?

We Need to be up in arms tho, changes only get reverted if there is a big enough outcry like with cast time for shields, most of the time even that doesnt work as countless other examples Show. Generally what is in the 1st PTS cycle is there to stay.

daedalusAI

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Since there was sayd ZOS is focusing on class identety, i wonder whats suposed to be the DKs identety?

Speaking as a MagDk, with a low burst damage potential, no execute, no serious ranged skills, low movability, and now even weak DoTs (regardless if its goin to be a 60% or 30% nerf), where exactly do you see the strenght of the dk?

Simple: to add 1 to pad the total count of "potential skill builds"

Kadoin

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

a quick question...I'm a noob Dk given that I've always mained templars.
How am I supposed to actually kill another player if my main tools (dots) has been weakened?

Stack a punch of damage poisons and proc sets...the most disgusting and dishonorable way to play.