PTS Update 24 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

Zekka

BohnT2 wrote: »

Now to some other things, stone giant is bad, it really is.
The bonus effect is useless in any situation.
Having to hit someone 5 times to stun them with the same ability while the stacks disappear every 7 seconds because you will stun an enemy on cooldown is just flawed and bad.
The whole ability is bad in fact, not only for what it does but also what it was intended to do.

First of all it's ranged which means as all ranged abilities it had a minimum travel time even when used at point blank range, for a class that is in no way ment to be used at range this doesn't synergies with anything while just adding a new drawback compared to its competitors.

Then you have the damage which doesn't sets it apart from other skills which are used as spammables like dizzying swing (even with the nerf it's better than stone giant) or powerbash (which does more damage and offers a synergy for DKs who like to block)
Not only being worse on a performance level than those skills no it also fails to give stamdk any identity.

Identity isn't given by just handing out mirror skills.
Identity is strengthend when a class ability synergises with the rest of the class and other abilities in that class.

One example being suprise attack stunning from cloak.
Power lash proccing on rooted or stunned enemies for magdk which has skills like talons and fossilize to complement it.

But stone giant doesn't do anything like that, it doesn't help stamDK in a pressure playstyle neither does it open up new way to play a stamDK.

Desoldering sword&shield from stamdks hands without having to run DSwing is good enough identity for me, but I agree with your points. ZOS need to fully commit and make Stone Giant a true melee ability instead of a very short range ranged ability, and it needs a better secondary effect that synergizes with the rest of its kit. Even with the cost increase stamdks can still run Petrify (at the cost of another magicka costing ability though, in my case Cauterize/FoO) then you have Turn Evil if you want a stam costing stun so another way to stun is not really needed, maybe an unnamed armor debuff if used on a target with class DoTs on it and bonus damage if used after Petrify specifically? a condtional debuff and effect if used with another skill like live Surprise Attack (armor debuff if used while flanking the enemy, and a stun if used in conjunction with Cloak).

Royalthought

Wings. *sigh*

I keep thinking about the first time I saw a meteor get reflected and destroy a guy. It was amazing.

(Ignore the fact It was my meteor flying back at me. 😆)

Orchish

A patch to give class identity and you nerf DK dots beyond parody damage levels. The DK for years was a tanky attrition fighter wearing you down over time with its dots and ironically you've stripped the class of that identity over the years. Cinderstorm,wings, now the DKs dots... My stamDK already used a majority of weapon class skills and now with the nerf to dots i'll have even less class skills on my bar. Honestly probably the worst patch so far in regards to DK.

Bowser

Is the initial hit for Noxious Breath supposed to hit harder than the 14 second dot?

juhislihis19

Fun fact:

DK is supposed to be the DOT class. Yet, its only because of their passives that their DOTs are up to bar with other DOTs.

DOTs were very strong, so what ZOS did in their incompetence was nerfed DOTs to oblivion, because that's what they do. They don't know what middle ground is.

Definition of middle ground:
1: a standpoint or area midway between extreme or opposing positions, options, or objectives

And most people who thought Onslaught was too strong, little did they know that instead of taking a look at Onslaught, ZOS decided to nerf Dizzy! You can't make this up.

UrbanMonk

RIP Dragon Knight
Year- Season of Dragons

lucky_Sage

I think the best part to the DoT nerf was that they also increased cost a mag class that has worse sustain.
If dks dots are stay this bad I was old wings back like pre 1.5 wings then

actosh

No comment on engulfing change? Looks like dk tanks have to stack spell dmg.

Engulfing Flames (morph): This morph’s bonus Flame Damage taken now scales off your Spell Damage; 1% for every 333 Spell Damage you have, up to a maximum of the original 10%.

Pijng

Bowser wrote: »

Is the initial hit for Noxious Breath supposed to hit harder than the 14 second dot?

Yup. It's funny that aoe dot (initial hit mainly, but the skill is still an aoe dot) is the best spam ability sDK has. Well, at least on live.

Zekka

actosh wrote: »

No comment on engulfing change? Looks like dk tanks have to stack spell dmg.

Engulfing Flames (morph): This morph’s bonus Flame Damage taken now scales off your Spell Damage; 1% for every 333 Spell Damage you have, up to a maximum of the original 10%.

It was done to dissuade tanks from running it and instead let magdk damage dealers apply the full bonus flame damage so groups have a reason to bring at least one of them.

SirDopey

Based on first initial testing it seems the hit to Venomous Claw is way too massive. Its currently out parsed by Kra'gh's which is a fairly soft proc set when it comes to damage based on a simalr rotation to what one does on live.

GeorgeBlack

StamDK performance:

StamDK was always a one build class. SnB/2 7th Fury BS.
This build is gone due to:
Excellent rebalancing of SnB
Excellent nerfs to Fury/7th
Now it's time to improve stamDK, starting with reverting the dmg nerf to Dots, and find a middle ground for their costs, since these are the strengths of the Attrition Class.

Also bring back Reflecting Plate with a high fatigue added cost to prevent magDKs from "shutting down" ranged enemies.
This is an iconic ability which DKs really felt its impact in combat. You should have never removed it without discussion, when at the same time you have magsorc, the strongest overall class of ESOs life, getting a thousand nerfs/buffs/nerfs/buffs before ending up again strong as due to shields, not to mention all the other tools they have.
How could you reduce this animation to just a boring resistance buff?
Bring back reflective plate.

StamDK identity:

StamDK does not need a spammable. Necros, NBs and Templars have spammables. StamDK was all about SnB abilities and Major Mending, which should belong to stamplars. Change the major mending of Igneous Shield with the Protective Plate ranged dmg reduction effect.
StamDKs need tools that bring out the dragon aspect. Such tools are:
stamina CC in the form of stonefist, not a spammable
stamina talons for group play.
stamina inhale tied to ultygen
stamina Igneous Weapons with a useful effect in addition to Maj Brutality. Remove Sorcery. We are not offering anything to anyone in the group.
updated passives with an emphasis on defence and resource management.

What should stamDK give up in exchange for its new identity:
I suggest that DK as a whole should give up Major Mending. It does not fit with the theme of the class. This is templar territory.
I also suggest the removal of Minor Brutality. DK should be sturdy, not deadly. Give us other tools to become a tough opponent to the other classes.

Also, revert the poison theme. The theme should be Rock and physical dmg. It's been years since Dark Brotherhood and we are not assassins

To sum up:
Bring back reflective plate
Bring stamina costing tools to the class, not a spammable.
Rever tTHIS classes Dot nerfs to a reasonable buff
Improve passives to give raw defence and resource management to become the attrition class
Switch Major Mending from Igneous Shield to the ranged dmg reduction from wings.
Remove Minor Brutality.

Suryoyo

DK's DOT do not deserve in any way this all across the board DOT nerf.
DK's DOT are melee DOT unlike soul trap and entropy which are 20+ meters and if played well can shut down any opponent if they keep the distance well.
Melee DOT should be taken into consideration separately from ranged DOT.
With the cost increase, the damage reduction and add the fact that engulfing flames and burning embers miss their target A LOT PvP wise (I used to run eruption over engulfing flames before scalebreaker just because of that weird dodging), DK's being pushed into just be a tank or an average healer.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

StShoot

Dear Zos could you please distinguish ranged dots and melee dots ? ou take a risk if you place melee dots and you should be rewarded. It seems you forgot about this.

Also the changes to inglufing flames are the worst changes i have seen in my live, you essential nerfed it for tanks and pvp because you hope that 10% more fire dmg would make magica dks viable in raids again (10% that were allready in the raid anyway ?!) ? i hope you arnt serious about this. Just for your books there are a lots of sets that doesnt buff you spell dmg directly (silk of the sun, elemental succesion, spellstartegist, spinner) so mad dks are locked out from that skill if they want to be tankier or use one of those sets.
I dont think i can reach the spell dmg on non cps with all the sustain nerfes we got this patch
If you wanted to take this away from tanks you should let it scale with you max magica, lets say 1% for 3k magica ? or even 1 % for 1k magica so mag dks actual CAN do dmg ?

did some test what happens if two dks cast inglufing flames on the same target while the one dk has a 8% and the other has a 10% buff ?

And the changes to searing strikes arnt that great either... zos you know that it is a dot ? and what do we want from dots ? that deal dmg without needing to recast them, but with your changes that searing strikes aply the burning status effect i have to spam them now every 2 seconds because i want to proc the passiv whitch restores my magica/Stamina? And yeah i know i dont have to do it because i can play however i want, but you cant realy pass free magica on a dk because our sustain is allready bad and it will get worse with the next patch.

Edit: Zos could you pls take a look at the dk skills ? You added a lot of skills to the the list of useless dk skills
(talons[pvp]; Inhale[even tho it got buffed its still not in a good spot];Stonefist;Molten Weapons;Ash Cloud;Empowering Chains/// After the next patch: fiery Breath; Searing Strike) If you wanted to add more flavor to the class you should have buffed one of those instead of nerfing the only skills the dk had left

Kadoin

Can someone from the dev team please explain why mag DK skills needed any cost increase?

Also, please explain fiery breath change. To get 10% you would need more spell damage ran than most builds would even bother in PvE and PvP because of diminishing returns vs. stacking mag.

Spell damage and mag do not scale like they do on stamina, and with DK skill costs ain't nobody gonna be 3K+ spell damage for a 10% buff and have to heavy attack every 3-5 seconds.

Kadoin

juhislihis19 wrote: »

And most people who thought Onslaught was too strong, little did they know that instead of taking a look at Onslaught, ZOS decided to nerf Dizzy! You can't make this up.

Eh, dizzy should have lost its stun for the same reason why frags and whip lost stun. It was overlooked for a long time because people claimed it was "buggy" and "not worth slotting."

Now everyone spamming it let the dev team know just how strong it is on live, esp. considering it cannot be interrupted and apparently has a magic range and random unblockability feature added into it. It so toxic, you even have 20+ players grouped spamming it. You cannot make that up.

Off balance change separates the stun from high damage, and means players have to "choose when to stun others" and do it "intentionally" (like the rationale for frags and whip change in the past ). You can always heavy attack after setting someone off balance to stun them, you know something that actually takes skill in a high pressure situation and strangely enough will probably be cried about next patch once people get knowledgeable enough on how to really benefit from this change.

Suryoyo

Even Templars will not bother purge our DOTs if we ever gap close, if they actually don't miss or if we just use these DOTs the way they are right now on PTS lol.

Asgari

As a 5 year DK both mag and stam in PvP I have to say dk class identity is at its worst.

Dots are utter trash.
No class burst for sDK.
Stone fist does terrible damage for how slow it is and clunky.

It’s passives in this update and last don’t make sense. The class isn’t this dot class anymore like it was always pushed to be.

Bubosh

Who is working on this DK changes? Just terrible seems like they spent 2 mins for those dk changes.... no motivation and no clue "stonefist changes".......

constantinus_endanus

stam dk class identity = dots. You decided this patch a global dot reduction. We re a melee class and you also gave us a more or less useless spammable that is ranged!!! A melee class with a ranged spammable! Lol! Can you PLEASE tell us WHAT we took in return? Also you made NO further look to passives or anything else. If you call this class changes/updates you have a BAD sense of humour!

Sanguinor2

Suryoyo wrote: »

Even Templars will not bother purge our DOTs if we ever gap close, if they actually don't miss or if we just use these DOTs the way they are right now on PTS lol.

Pls use them how are templars supposed to Keep up steadfast hero if you dont?

BattleAxe

ZoS I have usually seen the good in changes with previous patches but these dk nerfs are very much a head scratcher to me. You have stated the dk is an attrition based class yet the attrition based skills have been nerfed to a point the skills are laughable.

A suggestion for the dk give dks a passive acting as a reverse execute on all dots applied by a dk to keep with the theme of attrition based combat

thermatico

SilverPaws wrote: »

I fail to see how you want to give dk a "class identity" when you nerfed core of the class = dots... You are making this class useless. Dk dots weren't overperforming in first place so the nerf doesn't make sense.

The class dots of dk should not be standartized like generic dots... You are breaking the "attrition class" with sustained damage. Please reconsider these changes.

This. Please reconsider these ridiculous changes.

sfpiesb14_ESO

Can someone please explain the changes to searing strike.

U23 patch notes.

Increased cost to 2160 from 1350.
Increased the DoT damage by approximately 26% per tick.

PTS U24 patch notes:

This ability and its morphs now last 10 seconds at base, up from 8 seconds.
Increased the base cost to 2970, up from 2160.
This ability and its morphs have gained the new functionality of immediately applying their respective status effect to the enemy upon cast.
Reduced the damage per tick of the Damage over Time portion of the ability by approximately 60%.

U23 increased cost and increased damage by 26%
U24 increased cost AGAIN but DECREASED damage by 60%? oh but made it last 2 seconds longer

and what does "This ability and its morphs have gained the new functionality of immediately applying their respective status effect to the enemy upon cast." mean? Just that when you cast they automatically get the "burning" or "poisoned" status effect upon cast?

RandomName123

And here I thought things would get better and be more logical without Wrobel... man was I wrong. Serious question, do you guys play this game? Like for real? What is the point of this class now?

Sanguinor2

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

Can someone please explain the changes to searing strike.

U23 patch notes.

Increased cost to 2160 from 1350.
Increased the DoT damage by approximately 26% per tick.

PTS U24 patch notes:

This ability and its morphs now last 10 seconds at base, up from 8 seconds.
Increased the base cost to 2970, up from 2160.
This ability and its morphs have gained the new functionality of immediately applying their respective status effect to the enemy upon cast.
Reduced the damage per tick of the Damage over Time portion of the ability by approximately 60%.

U23 increased cost and increased damage by 26%
U24 increased cost AGAIN but DECREASED damage by 60%? oh but made it last 2 seconds longer

and what does "This ability and its morphs have gained the new functionality of immediately applying their respective status effect to the enemy upon cast." mean? Just that when you cast they automatically get the "burning" or "poisoned" status effect upon cast?

Change from U23 to U24 is basically "We wanted to try and buff dots since we buffed them too much we are now gonna destroy them instead of finding a middle Ground because that requires effort."

I´d assume they did the Status effect Change to try and make up for the cost increase a Little with the combustion passive but as mdk you apply Burning anyway dont really Need the 100% Chance from embers alltho it will help a Little.

sfpiesb14_ESO

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

Can someone please explain the changes to searing strike.

U23 patch notes.

Increased cost to 2160 from 1350.
Increased the DoT damage by approximately 26% per tick.

PTS U24 patch notes:

This ability and its morphs now last 10 seconds at base, up from 8 seconds.
Increased the base cost to 2970, up from 2160.
This ability and its morphs have gained the new functionality of immediately applying their respective status effect to the enemy upon cast.
Reduced the damage per tick of the Damage over Time portion of the ability by approximately 60%.

U23 increased cost and increased damage by 26%
U24 increased cost AGAIN but DECREASED damage by 60%? oh but made it last 2 seconds longer

and what does "This ability and its morphs have gained the new functionality of immediately applying their respective status effect to the enemy upon cast." mean? Just that when you cast they automatically get the "burning" or "poisoned" status effect upon cast?

Change from U23 to U24 is basically "We wanted to try and buff dots since we buffed them too much we are now gonna destroy them instead of finding a middle Ground because that requires effort."

I´d assume they did the Status effect Change to try and make up for the cost increase a Little with the combustion passive but as mdk you apply Burning anyway dont really Need the 100% Chance from embers alltho it will help a Little.

They wanted to buff dots from where they were in U22. Then decrease them below what they were in U22? Really I mean come on! Makes zero sense.

Sanguinor2

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

They wanted to buff dots from where they were in U22. Then decrease them below what they were in U22? Really I mean come on! Makes zero sense.

I mean None of us can know for sure what they want, we can only interprete their Actions and they speak volumes dont they?

BlackMadara

My opinions are based on pvp.

Here are some comparisons for my build for cost, direct damage (dd), and damage over time (dot). 37k max magicka and 3.8 buffed spell damage. Breton in light armor (~16 % cost reduction).

Update 23:
Burning embers - cost 1815, DD 5906, DoT 26574/12s (2215 dot dps, 2707 total dps, 18 damage/magicka cost)
Engulfing flames - cost 2359, DD 8741, DoT 13818/12s (1152 dot dps, 1880 total dps, 10 damage/magicka cost)

Update 24:
Burning embers - cost 2494, DD 5906, DoT 12390/14s (885 dot dps, 1307 total dps, 7 damage/magicka cost)
Engulfing flames - cost 2948, DD 8741, DoT 8589/14s (614 dot dps, 1238 total dps, 6 damage/ magicka cost)

Flame lash deals 11814 damage for the cost of 1927 magicka, 6 damage/magicka cost. What is even the point of dots with these changes?

Volatile armour's dot, which is historically weak dot, deals 13206/10s, which is 1321 dps. Volatile armor, an ability primarily used for the resistance buff, is aoe, and costs me 2268 magicka deals more damage than dedicated dot skills.

These changes are ridiculous, and truly hurt my confidence in this new team. I thought the days of see saw balancing were past us. Perhaps 2.5x the damage of dd abilities is too much, but 1.25x is far too low. Not only this, but the increase in standard time to 10s for abilities that deal "x damage over y seconds," further decreases their dps. All of the above, on top of the unwarranted increase in cost makes dots hardly worth using at all as a damage source for pvp.

Pvp has always focused on dd burst, which meant that DKs lagged behind due to being dot focused. These changes are terrible for DKs and pvp as a whole.

devilsTear

So.. You guys mis Wrobel yet?