Trader swap issue - EU server

SteveCampsOut

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Ecstatica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

That's called Exploiting! Do it at your own peril!

I picked up my trader for 10k, the one I've had for the past 10+ weeks that I bid on and their system failed. If they call that an exploit, I'm out.

We all were in the dark about what was happening. So, no. It shouldn't be an exploit. It was the only available workaround to secure a trader, you would already have had through bidding. The system failed to work properly. You didn't initiate anything knowingly. We all, legitimately, thought we had to hire the traders in that moment, because every single vendor was empty imho.

Well I wasn't able to "Hire" the trader we won because she said we already won a trader. So yeah, if you hired when you won you exploited a bug. That's the definition of exploit.

reoskit

Iluvrien wrote: »

I doubt we'll see a quick resolution to this on EU.

ZOS (Gina) managed 3 posts between in 17 minutes in the "RIP EU Server" thread... and there has been nothing since (1.5 hours and counting).

I'll be interested to see if NA gets a hotfix that prevents the problem occurring.

That's the unfortunate situation they've got to be juggling right now. With time being a factor, where do you focus your energy: fixing an issue that's already happened or preventing it from happening again?

I know my answer, but I'm biased.

Dont_do_drugs

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

There are already many billions on the servers. A couple billion more isn't really the problem. The problem is that the bidding and/or switch over isn't functioning properly. A new patch which fixes it for next week will be just fine.

Certainly preferable to the whole server being rolled back because a few guild trader bids went wrong.

Serious question: Do we know it's only "a few"?

well its not the bidding thing which needs to get the rollback. one week isnt that bad at all. the gold brought into the game by failing in calculation is the ugly thing. oin pc eu two major alliances got over 1 billion refunded each, multiple amount of what they bid. so all other gm got refunded multiple bid amounts. this is pretty insane.

I understand this is a trying situation. I'm not happy with it either, but a rollback would, unfortunately, impact people who have nothing to do with the bidding system as well. It wouldn't be fair to them at all, and it isn't really necessary imho. It needs to be patched regardless. So why inconvenience the players more? Instead, they can patch it up and offer an apology for the triple canniption we had when we saw. We had no traders suddenly, even though we won.

if they reacted the right time it wouldnt have been. but as usual zos gives 0fcks on trading issues. competition between trading guilds is lost now.

Arrodisia

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Ecstatica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

That's called Exploiting! Do it at your own peril!

I picked up my trader for 10k, the one I've had for the past 10+ weeks that I bid on and their system failed. If they call that an exploit, I'm out.

We all were in the dark about what was happening. So, no. It shouldn't be an exploit. It was the only available workaround to secure a trader, you would already have had through bidding. The system failed to work properly. You didn't initiate anything knowingly. We all, legitimately, thought we had to hire the traders in that moment, because every single vendor was empty imho.

Well I wasn't able to "Hire" the trader we won because she said we already won a trader. So yeah, if you hired when you won you exploited a bug. That's the definition of exploit.

No it isn't. We didn't have the vendor, even though we won. No one had a vendor. So, it was a work around to make sure we could use what we already won like a bugged quest. ZOS encourages work arounds for things that are bugged to achieve the intended goal. Since we won the bid, the intended goal was for us to have it. Instead of trying quibble with the players, who did nothing wrong, quibble with the responsible party.

Best regards

Dont_do_drugs

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Ecstatica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

That's called Exploiting! Do it at your own peril!

I picked up my trader for 10k, the one I've had for the past 10+ weeks that I bid on and their system failed. If they call that an exploit, I'm out.

We all were in the dark about what was happening. So, no. It shouldn't be an exploit. It was the only available workaround to secure a trader, you would already have had through bidding. The system failed to work properly. You didn't initiate anything knowingly. We all, legitimately, thought we had to hire the traders in that moment, because every single vendor was empty imho.

Well I wasn't able to "Hire" the trader we won because she said we already won a trader. So yeah, if you hired when you won you exploited a bug. That's the definition of exploit.

No it isn't. We didn't have the vendor even though we won. No one had a vendor. So it was a work around to make sure we could use what we won like a bugged quest. ZOS encourages work arounds for things that are bugged to achieve the intended goal. Since we won the bid, the intended goal was for us to have it. Instead of trying quibble with the players, who did nothing wrong, quibble with the responsible party.

Best regards

just ignore him like we did at some point in other multi bid threads.

Arrodisia

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Ecstatica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

That's called Exploiting! Do it at your own peril!

I picked up my trader for 10k, the one I've had for the past 10+ weeks that I bid on and their system failed. If they call that an exploit, I'm out.

We all were in the dark about what was happening. So, no. It shouldn't be an exploit. It was the only available workaround to secure a trader, you would already have had through bidding. The system failed to work properly. You didn't initiate anything knowingly. We all, legitimately, thought we had to hire the traders in that moment, because every single vendor was empty imho.

Well I wasn't able to "Hire" the trader we won because she said we already won a trader. So yeah, if you hired when you won you exploited a bug. That's the definition of exploit.

No it isn't. We didn't have the vendor even though we won. No one had a vendor. So it was a work around to make sure we could use what we won like a bugged quest. ZOS encourages work arounds for things that are bugged to achieve the intended goal. Since we won the bid, the intended goal was for us to have it. Instead of trying quibble with the players, who did nothing wrong, quibble with the responsible party.

Best regards

just ignore him like we did at some point in other multi bid threads.

You are absolutely right. That was my mistake.

Arrodisia

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

There are already many billions on the servers. A couple billion more isn't really the problem. The problem is that the bidding and/or switch over isn't functioning properly. A new patch which fixes it for next week will be just fine.

Certainly preferable to the whole server being rolled back because a few guild trader bids went wrong.

Serious question: Do we know it's only "a few"?

well its not the bidding thing which needs to get the rollback. one week isnt that bad at all. the gold brought into the game by failing in calculation is the ugly thing. oin pc eu two major alliances got over 1 billion refunded each, multiple amount of what they bid. so all other gm got refunded multiple bid amounts. this is pretty insane.

I understand this is a trying situation. I'm not happy with it either, but a rollback would, unfortunately, impact people who have nothing to do with the bidding system as well. It wouldn't be fair to them at all, and it isn't really necessary imho. It needs to be patched regardless. So why inconvenience the players more? Instead, they can patch it up and offer an apology for the triple canniption we had when we saw. We had no traders suddenly, even though we won.

if they reacted the right time it wouldnt have been. but as usual zos gives 0fcks on trading issues. competition between trading guilds is lost now.

Again you are right, but competition was gone long ago.

virtus753

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Ecstatica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

That's called Exploiting! Do it at your own peril!

I picked up my trader for 10k, the one I've had for the past 10+ weeks that I bid on and their system failed. If they call that an exploit, I'm out.

We all were in the dark about what was happening. So, no. It shouldn't be an exploit. It was the only available workaround to secure a trader, you would already have had through bidding. The system failed to work properly. You didn't initiate anything knowingly. We all, legitimately, thought we had to hire the traders in that moment, because every single vendor was empty imho.

Well I wasn't able to "Hire" the trader we won because she said we already won a trader. So yeah, if you hired when you won you exploited a bug. That's the definition of exploit.

A lot of posters here define exploit as only *knowingly* taking advantage of a bug. I suppose it depends whether one considers an exploit to be “taking advantage of” or merely “gaining an advantage from” a bug. (Edit: in the past ZOS has taken away the advantages of even an unknowing exploit, albeit inconsistently.) Either way, a lot of people have benefitted from this situation at the expense of a lot of others due to problems on ZOS’ end, and many seem to have benefitted and lost out at the same time in different ways. At this point nothing is “fair” to anyone.

While a rollback would impact everyone, something needs to be done to remedy the situation, and sometimes that requires measures that affect the entire server. Unless someone is going to get the job of clawing back all of the refunds and putting each winning bid in the system manually...

There’s a lot they *can* do, pace whatever PR line they give. What they *will* do is another matter entirely.

Iluvrien

reoskit wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

I doubt we'll see a quick resolution to this on EU.

ZOS (Gina) managed 3 posts between in 17 minutes in the "RIP EU Server" thread... and there has been nothing since (1.5 hours and counting).

I'll be interested to see if NA gets a hotfix that prevents the problem occurring.

That's the unfortunate situation they've got to be juggling right now. With time being a factor, where do you focus your energy: fixing an issue that's already happened or preventing it from happening again?

I know my answer, but I'm biased.

The issue wasn't just a one time thing on EU, though. Every guild chat I am on was chaos. Trying to work out if bids had actually gone through, whether any traders could still be hired, dealing with external sales that were showing up even when a trader had apparently not been won, and there were others that were just starting to be discussed when I had to bail due to connection problems.

... the problem seemed to be ongoing and snowballing. This may not be something that ZOS can just leave to patch at a later time after preventing the same train-wreck on NA.

Best solution may actually be to pull both EU and NA servers and fix while offline. The NA problem won't occur, and the EU problems can be unpicked, and fixed while not actually getting any worse.

.. and I say that as a paying customer who will lose out on the largest portion of my weekly game time that way.

Arrodisia

virtus753 wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Ecstatica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

That's called Exploiting! Do it at your own peril!

I picked up my trader for 10k, the one I've had for the past 10+ weeks that I bid on and their system failed. If they call that an exploit, I'm out.

We all were in the dark about what was happening. So, no. It shouldn't be an exploit. It was the only available workaround to secure a trader, you would already have had through bidding. The system failed to work properly. You didn't initiate anything knowingly. We all, legitimately, thought we had to hire the traders in that moment, because every single vendor was empty imho.

Well I wasn't able to "Hire" the trader we won because she said we already won a trader. So yeah, if you hired when you won you exploited a bug. That's the definition of exploit.

A lot of posters here define exploit as only *knowingly* taking advantage of a bug. I suppose it depends whether one considers an exploit to be “taking advantage of” or merely “gaining an advantage from” a bug. (Edit: in the past ZOS has taken away the advantages of even an unknowing exploit, albeit inconsistently.) Either way, a lot of people have benefitted from this situation at the expense of a lot of others due to problems on ZOS’ end, and many seem to have benefitted and lost out at the same time in different ways. At this point nothing is “fair” to anyone.

While a rollback would impact everyone, something needs to be done to remedy the situation, and sometimes that requires measures that affect the entire server. Unless someone is going to get the job of clawing back all of the refunds and putting each winning bid in the system manually...

There’s a lot they *can* do, pace whatever PR line they give. What they *will* do is another matter entirely.

The intended goal was for guilds to have the vendors they won, and hiring achieved that. It's a workaround at best. This is and was very inconvenient for the players already. A roll back isn't really necessary. A patch will fix it for the next week imho, but ZOS will decide as they see fit. I just wish. They let us test this change first, since we posted our concerns multiple times in the general discussions and in the PTS thread.

martinhpb16_ESO

reoskit wrote: »

^ We mentioned the lack of testability and the importance of load ad nauseam.

Over and over and over again...

Exactly..........Its like Brexit...."don't do it there will be chaos", "we dont know exactly what the chaos will be but we can predict there will be chaos"......THERE WILL BE CHAOS EVEN WHEN THE SYSTEM FINALLY WORKS AS INTENDED

wolfie1.0.

Tandor wrote: »

jazsper77 wrote: »

Wait did you say a FEW bids went wrong lmfao white knighting at its finest. But hey ya gotta stick up for the big guys might get some brownie points with ZOS LOLZ

I'm not sticking up for anyone, this fiasco is just another reason why the guild trading system is such rubbish.

If the Servers can't handle something that supposedly impacts a small population of the game, then what makes you think that it can support the traffic that will occur with a GAH?

JasmineMcCoy

If they will do a rollback, when will they announce that?

Shamisa_En

JasmineMcCoy wrote: »

If they will do a rollback, when will they announce that?

Ideally they should be taking the servers down already, but it seems pretty quiet...

martinhpb16_ESO

We have no trader. Another guild hired the trader we were supposed to have. I could not hire a trader because the system said I already had a trader, but i didn't.

chess1ukb16_ESO

People are now trying to launder gold they got from badly calculated trade bid refunds by buying up anything and everything in guild kiosks.

This will forever break the economy if no rollback or some other way to fix it.

virtus753

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Ecstatica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

That's called Exploiting! Do it at your own peril!

I picked up my trader for 10k, the one I've had for the past 10+ weeks that I bid on and their system failed. If they call that an exploit, I'm out.

We all were in the dark about what was happening. So, no. It shouldn't be an exploit. It was the only available workaround to secure a trader, you would already have had through bidding. The system failed to work properly. You didn't initiate anything knowingly. We all, legitimately, thought we had to hire the traders in that moment, because every single vendor was empty imho.

Well I wasn't able to "Hire" the trader we won because she said we already won a trader. So yeah, if you hired when you won you exploited a bug. That's the definition of exploit.

A lot of posters here define exploit as only *knowingly* taking advantage of a bug. I suppose it depends whether one considers an exploit to be “taking advantage of” or merely “gaining an advantage from” a bug. (Edit: in the past ZOS has taken away the advantages of even an unknowing exploit, albeit inconsistently.) Either way, a lot of people have benefitted from this situation at the expense of a lot of others due to problems on ZOS’ end, and many seem to have benefitted and lost out at the same time in different ways. At this point nothing is “fair” to anyone.

While a rollback would impact everyone, something needs to be done to remedy the situation, and sometimes that requires measures that affect the entire server. Unless someone is going to get the job of clawing back all of the refunds and putting each winning bid in the system manually...

There’s a lot they *can* do, pace whatever PR line they give. What they *will* do is another matter entirely.

The intended goal was for guilds to have the vendors they won, and hiring achieved that. It's a workaround at best. This is and was very inconvenient for the players already. A roll back isn't really necessary. A patch will fix it for the next week imho, but ZOS will decide as they see fit. I just wish. They let us test this change first, since we posted our concerns multiple times in the general discussions and in the PTS thread.

From what it sounds like, being able to hire the trader you should have won through bidding was the extremely rare exception. What about guilds who couldn’t hire a trader because they were told they had already won one? Or those who couldn’t be online at flip? The entire point of the bidding process was defeated.

Dont_do_drugs

u know what, my friends. you should have been doing it like me. protesting by giving the trade guild bs made by zos the middle finger.

reoskit

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

We have no trader. Another guild hired the trader we were supposed to have. I could not hire a trader because the system said I already had a trader, but i didn't.

^ This freaks me out.

Arrodisia

virtus753 wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Ecstatica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

That's called Exploiting! Do it at your own peril!

I picked up my trader for 10k, the one I've had for the past 10+ weeks that I bid on and their system failed. If they call that an exploit, I'm out.

We all were in the dark about what was happening. So, no. It shouldn't be an exploit. It was the only available workaround to secure a trader, you would already have had through bidding. The system failed to work properly. You didn't initiate anything knowingly. We all, legitimately, thought we had to hire the traders in that moment, because every single vendor was empty imho.

Well I wasn't able to "Hire" the trader we won because she said we already won a trader. So yeah, if you hired when you won you exploited a bug. That's the definition of exploit.

A lot of posters here define exploit as only *knowingly* taking advantage of a bug. I suppose it depends whether one considers an exploit to be “taking advantage of” or merely “gaining an advantage from” a bug. (Edit: in the past ZOS has taken away the advantages of even an unknowing exploit, albeit inconsistently.) Either way, a lot of people have benefitted from this situation at the expense of a lot of others due to problems on ZOS’ end, and many seem to have benefitted and lost out at the same time in different ways. At this point nothing is “fair” to anyone.

While a rollback would impact everyone, something needs to be done to remedy the situation, and sometimes that requires measures that affect the entire server. Unless someone is going to get the job of clawing back all of the refunds and putting each winning bid in the system manually...

There’s a lot they *can* do, pace whatever PR line they give. What they *will* do is another matter entirely.

The intended goal was for guilds to have the vendors they won, and hiring achieved that. It's a workaround at best. This is and was very inconvenient for the players already. A roll back isn't really necessary. A patch will fix it for the next week imho, but ZOS will decide as they see fit. I just wish. They let us test this change first, since we posted our concerns multiple times in the general discussions and in the PTS thread.

From what it sounds like, being able to hire the trader you should have won through bidding was the extremely rare exception. What about guilds who couldn’t hire a trader because they were told they had already won one? Or those who couldn’t be online at flip? The entire point of the bidding process was defeated.

I feel for those people, and hope that ZOS compensates them for the inconvenience instead of making it worse. Still that's the devs problem, not mine. So why ask me? Anyway, let's hope. A nice patch fixes it for next week.

SteveCampsOut

virtus753 wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Ecstatica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

That's called Exploiting! Do it at your own peril!

I picked up my trader for 10k, the one I've had for the past 10+ weeks that I bid on and their system failed. If they call that an exploit, I'm out.

We all were in the dark about what was happening. So, no. It shouldn't be an exploit. It was the only available workaround to secure a trader, you would already have had through bidding. The system failed to work properly. You didn't initiate anything knowingly. We all, legitimately, thought we had to hire the traders in that moment, because every single vendor was empty imho.

Well I wasn't able to "Hire" the trader we won because she said we already won a trader. So yeah, if you hired when you won you exploited a bug. That's the definition of exploit.

A lot of posters here define exploit as only *knowingly* taking advantage of a bug. I suppose it depends whether one considers an exploit to be “taking advantage of” or merely “gaining an advantage from” a bug. (Edit: in the past ZOS has taken away the advantages of even an unknowing exploit, albeit inconsistently.) Either way, a lot of people have benefitted from this situation at the expense of a lot of others due to problems on ZOS’ end, and many seem to have benefitted and lost out at the same time in different ways. At this point nothing is “fair” to anyone.

While a rollback would impact everyone, something needs to be done to remedy the situation, and sometimes that requires measures that affect the entire server. Unless someone is going to get the job of clawing back all of the refunds and putting each winning bid in the system manually...

There’s a lot they *can* do, pace whatever PR line they give. What they *will* do is another matter entirely.

No offense to all these posters, but the only definition that really matters is ZOS's definition in cases like this. As many people are trying to make me out to be the villain in this situation. I'm only pointing it out that ZOS tends to ban people for exploits whether they "Knew" they were exploiting or not! I lost a high ranking guild officer to one of their bans for about a year and she didn't do anything on purpose either. I'm certainly not saying it's fair I'm just saying don't deliberately encourage people to go exploit this bug as someone did earlier in this very thread.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Shamisa_En wrote: »

Ideally they should be taking the servers down already, but it seems pretty quiet...

It's sunday evening in the middle of august... there's little point in taking the servers down (and it would have to be both servers I guess ? Or is it just PC/EU ?) if you don't have the staff to fix the problem.
Also, trading is a big part of the game for us traders... but other players don't care that much. They're still in dungeons and trials, or hunting down Wrothgar world bosses because it is also the last day of the event. They haven't noticed yet. There will probably, however, be more noise tomorrow when people want to buy stuff and find nothing at guild traders.
I wouldn't be surprised, however, if most people simply didn't care and this goes relatively unnoticed. Wait and see..

Shamisa_En

Point of taking servers down? If we're looking at a rollback that also means lost progress, in case servers have been accessible the whole time.

sylviermoone

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Shamisa_En wrote: »

Ideally they should be taking the servers down already, but it seems pretty quiet...

It's sunday evening in the middle of august... there's little point in taking the servers down (and it would have to be both servers I guess ? Or is it just PC/EU ?) if you don't have the staff to fix the problem.
Also, trading is a big part of the game for us traders... but other players don't care that much. They're still in dungeons and trials, or hunting down Wrothgar world bosses because it is also the last day of the event. They haven't noticed yet. There will probably, however, be more noise tomorrow when people want to buy stuff and find nothing at guild traders.
I wouldn't be surprised, however, if most people simply didn't care and this goes relatively unnoticed. Wait and see..

This hasn't happened on PC/NA yet. Our trader flip is still an hour and 45 minutes away.

anitajoneb17_ESO

sylviermoone wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Shamisa_En wrote: »

Ideally they should be taking the servers down already, but it seems pretty quiet...

It's sunday evening in the middle of august... there's little point in taking the servers down (and it would have to be both servers I guess ? Or is it just PC/EU ?) if you don't have the staff to fix the problem.
Also, trading is a big part of the game for us traders... but other players don't care that much. They're still in dungeons and trials, or hunting down Wrothgar world bosses because it is also the last day of the event. They haven't noticed yet. There will probably, however, be more noise tomorrow when people want to buy stuff and find nothing at guild traders.
I wouldn't be surprised, however, if most people simply didn't care and this goes relatively unnoticed. Wait and see..

This hasn't happened on PC/NA yet. Our trader flip is still an hour and 45 minutes away.

... is it ?
In this case yes, ZOS should definitely stop the process on PC/NA ... wow... what a mess !

JasmineMcCoy

chess1ukb16_ESO wrote: »

People are now trying to launder gold they got from badly calculated trade bid refunds by buying up anything and everything in guild kiosks.

This will forever break the economy if no rollback or some other way to fix it.

Isn't that intentional exploiting though? People can't not realize they got 4x they bid and suddenly go on a shopping spree.

Dont_do_drugs

JasmineMcCoy wrote: »

chess1ukb16_ESO wrote: »

People are now trying to launder gold they got from badly calculated trade bid refunds by buying up anything and everything in guild kiosks.

This will forever break the economy if no rollback or some other way to fix it.

Isn't that intentional exploiting though? People can't not realize they got 4x they bid and suddenly go on a shopping spree.

it is innitial exploiting, and i hope everyone trying to launder or get the gold away gets banned for it, or his guild bank set to minus, so the amount gets removed even if the guild is under 0 then. the gold then still will be in circulation tho and this is an issue still. zos wont ever be able to follow it up and readjust it.

Shamisa_En

Yes, of course, best action is to ban the players instead of doing a roll back as a preventive measure of having this snowball any further.

Dont_do_drugs

Shamisa_En wrote: »

Yes, of course, best action is to ban the players instead of doing a roll back as a preventive measure of having this snowball any further.

well actually i hope for both. a fix to the issue and punishment for everyone trying

anitajoneb17_ESO

Shamisa_En wrote: »

Point of taking servers down? If we're looking at a rollback that also means lost progress, in case servers have been accessible the whole time.

I know what you mean, but you can't take the servers down if you have no solution, no strategy and no ETA. And the people in charge of such big decisions (both in the managerial and the technical fields) might not even be available because it's sunday evening in the middle of August. That's what I meant.
I seriously doubt they'll roll back the entire game for entire hours or even days just for a trading system issue. They'll probably collect the gold back from trading guilds (the extra refunds) and let the rest go its merry way until next sunday.