Doubling Guild Fees (and more rumors)

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Selling in zone is free

peacenote

Androconium wrote: »

I joined four EU guilds:

• Trader in Elden Root
• Trader in Vivec
• No Trader.
• Trader in Windhelm

On Friday, I flooded all four with discounted mats and armour. I made close to 500K over the weekend.
I left all four guilds yesterday.
I didn't pay anything other than standard taxes and fees.

Androconium wrote: »

Perhaps making it impossible to have the same location for more than one week at a time is the answer.

I'm not at all saying your strategy isn't viable but boy, am I glad that there's more than one way to play the guild trader game, and I hope my way is still possible after these changes!

All five of my guild slots are filled, four of them with guilds that play at different times so there's lots of activity and people for me to join and create groups easily. I am in one trade guild, which I've been a member of for a very, very long time. I always make the minimum but will participate in the raffle if I can't for some reason (such as going on vacation). It's a nice, homey feeling that our trader is always in the same decent spot, and many members of my trade guild have been part of it for a long time and are familiar names in guild chat.

I personally would not enjoy leaving and joining guilds just to sell items, nor would I enjoy seeing messages and news about trade guilds with which I have no loyalty whatsoever. I don't think guild hopping is bad but it's not for me, and I would hate to see "family traders" - for lack of a better term - fall by the wayside.

FlopsyPrince

barney2525 wrote: »

Which just convinces me even more of my personal opinion - this system is nuts.

IMHO

I completely agree. Though I have only been here less than a year and others are far more comfortable with things as they are. (I am convinced much of that is because they profit from this situation.)

NWOMark

I completely agree. Though I have only been here less than a year and others are far more comfortable with things as they are. (I am convinced much of that is because they profit from this situation.)

[/quote]

They make profit from this situation for 5 years and you can bet they will push for this mess of system as long the game will last to keep and grow profit!

Androconium

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Which just convinces me even more of my personal opinion - this system is nuts.

IMHO

I completely agree. Though I have only been here less than a year and others are far more comfortable with things as they are. (I am convinced much of that is because they profit from this situation.)

Yes. There are high-end traders that WANT to be in same spot week after week to ensure their 2-3 million/week sales.

The watershed moment for me came when I realised that one or two of my guilds were giving "tax-back" to the top 3 or 5 traders, as an incentive. That meant that players ranked 6-500 were actually paying these guys to make us work harder.
Then they ask me for donations. As well.

Nope. Not playing that game. If you sell 2 or 3 million a week, the rest of that guild NEEDS your tax.

Otherwise, sell in zone chat if you're THAT *** GOOD.

MLGProPlayer

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And some still think this is a wonderful system.

This shows how "wonderful" it really is.

I've been told that a central auction house always crashes the economy. Apparently, ESO is the only MMO with a functioning in-game economy. WoW, GW2, FFXIV, etc. don't have functioning economies.

MLGProPlayer

jainiadral wrote: »

Just a random aside re gold sinks: The best and most reliable sink is having a good stable of in-game goods worth purchasing from vendor NPCs. Mounts, armor, fun little furnishing doo-dads, pets... Of course, that requires design and development time unlike this

They've developed plenty of things worth purchasing. They're just exclusive to the crown store/crates.

MLGProPlayer

Urigall wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

You need to bid higher to maintain spot - this means you need more tax/fees.

Agreed OsManiaC.

Double-edged sword though. I'm in a guild with 50k/week minimum sales. Our GM regularly has to kick players who join, then fail to meet the target. The players who are kicked last less than a week because the target is rigorously enforced. I don't blame the GM - the targets are necessary so our guild can to remain competitive at this level.

Bump sales targets up and other traders will be unable (or unwilling) to meet the new target. In some guilds, a trader who was hitting 50k/week could now have to meet 75k/week or 100k/week. (in practice, most of our traders seem able to sell well over 50k/week)

Sales targets/fees rise, more traders are kicked out of the guild. Filling the empty spots is now even harder because the targets are more demanding.

GMs will be aware that higher bids are probably going to be needed - especially in the better spots. Those GMs will know they might have to raise fees/targets. They'll also know raising fees/targets means more traders might have to be kicked and less, new traders will be willing to join because of the new targets. If targets/fees rise high enough, big guilds might end up full of the higher end traders.

Btw, I often see you in the bank. I'll wave next time.

Sales requirements have never been higher (due to bidding prices being at an all-time high). At the same time, the selling prices of items have never been lower. Material prices have dropped 300% over the last 2 years thanks to rampant botting oversupplying the market. Then there is the annual motif event that has effectively made every motif in the game worthless.

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market. Reaching weekly sales targets via farming will require an inordinate amount of time due to the extremely low prices on mats. It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

Urigall

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market.

I started trading with about 40k of seed capital and knew next to nothing about the market. I've made around 15 million now, partly thanks to MM. Made plenty of blunders along the way too.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

The botters often work through "gaming workshops" (sometimes called "gold farms") These workshops are groups of players working out of a single building. Apparently, the farmers work in two shifts - machines run 24/7. YouTube hosts several videos on the phenomenon - typing in "Chinese Gold Farmers" will find them.

In 2006, one gold farmer in China actually registered as a business, in order to ensure compliance with taxation regulations.

Speaking of taxation and virtual items, I believe the US Internal Revenue Service has a dedicated web page that covers the tax consequences of virtual world transactions.

Tan9oSuccka

I wonder what the tipping point will be for members of these guilds?

For me 20K isn’t much and that’s the logic everyone follows. “Oh you can make that up in sales”.

New or casual players are getting priced right out of the market. If out of the way guilds are charging 10k per week, there’s a prohibitive barrier to sell items for quite a few players.

It’s time to blow it all up. Global auction house please.

JKorr

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Urigall wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

You need to bid higher to maintain spot - this means you need more tax/fees.

Agreed OsManiaC.

Double-edged sword though. I'm in a guild with 50k/week minimum sales. Our GM regularly has to kick players who join, then fail to meet the target. The players who are kicked last less than a week because the target is rigorously enforced. I don't blame the GM - the targets are necessary so our guild can to remain competitive at this level.

Bump sales targets up and other traders will be unable (or unwilling) to meet the new target. In some guilds, a trader who was hitting 50k/week could now have to meet 75k/week or 100k/week. (in practice, most of our traders seem able to sell well over 50k/week)

Sales targets/fees rise, more traders are kicked out of the guild. Filling the empty spots is now even harder because the targets are more demanding.

GMs will be aware that higher bids are probably going to be needed - especially in the better spots. Those GMs will know they might have to raise fees/targets. They'll also know raising fees/targets means more traders might have to be kicked and less, new traders will be willing to join because of the new targets. If targets/fees rise high enough, big guilds might end up full of the higher end traders.

Btw, I often see you in the bank. I'll wave next time.

Sales requirements have never been higher (due to bidding prices being at an all-time high). At the same time, the selling prices of items have never been lower. Material prices have dropped 300% over the last 2 years thanks to rampant botting oversupplying the market. Then there is the annual motif event that has effectively made every motif in the game worthless.

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market. Reaching weekly sales targets via farming will require an inordinate amount of time due to the extremely low prices on mats. It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

Or the guilds that have sky high/ridiculous dues will have people quit to find guilds that aren't a full time job to belong to. Unless there is some kind of video game ninja assassin squad that will show up at your RL house to kill if you quit a guild, everyone has the option of saying "No, the cost is too high", and walking away. There isn't any "you must sell eleventy billion gold a day or the game will ban you from playing forever" rule under the ToS and Code of Conduct the last time I looked. The people who actually play ESO TRADE WARS ONLINE will continue to be able to generate the sales needed, I guess. But no one can force you to do that.

Why do players feel the need to sell items and make eleventy billion gold a day, anyway? Even if you're buying crowns, there isn't exactly thousands of ways to spend it. Even if you buy every house that is possible to purchase for gold.....

wenchmore420b14_ESO

My guilds havent changed or raised anything yet.

But the affects are being felt. Our mid tier kiosk was lost this week to a ridiculous high bid.
This is still a bad decision IMO....

Fiktius

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I wonder what the tipping point will be for members of these guilds?

For me 20K isn’t much and that’s the logic everyone follows. “Oh you can make that up in sales”.

New or casual players are getting priced right out of the market. If out of the way guilds are charging 10k per week, there’s a prohibitive barrier to sell items for quite a few players.

It's a tricky question. To some people 10 - 20 K is nothing and they're willing to donate that weekly basis in order to have an access to high traffic sales as many weeks as possible. They play this trading game and try to reach their goal for what ever reason they happen to have.

However there are a lot beginners/more casual players around, which I met across earlier recruiting rounds and they told me directly that they struggle to make even 10 K sales and for them alternative 5 K donation fee is too much.
That kind of new players are gonna have harder time to be in a guild which got suitable requirements for them, if/when these lower requirement guilds are gonna get shot via back up system at coming U23.

Personally I haven't changed requirements in my guilds due U23 is not here yet, but I've been keeping an eye on conversations around and I'm aware that I'll loose several members right away when I do what is must and change requirements of my guilds.
I'm very well aware that there are very wealthy sniper guilds on my platform and I will do my best try to avoid being "that guild which was weakest link in the chain" and get a sniped, because everyone else in the same street did bid higher to keep sniper away.

jaws343

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I wonder what the tipping point will be for members of these guilds?

For me 20K isn’t much and that’s the logic everyone follows. “Oh you can make that up in sales”.

New or casual players are getting priced right out of the market. If out of the way guilds are charging 10k per week, there’s a prohibitive barrier to sell items for quite a few players.

It’s time to blow it all up. Global auction house please.

20K in Sales in 1 Week:

1 piece of Purple Spriggans or Seventh Legion Jewelry: 20-40K.

1 piece Spriggans or Seventh legion body: 5-10K depending on trait. So 2-4 items to hit 20K.

1 piece Spriggan or Seventh legion weapon: 10-20K+. 1 or 2 items to hit 20K (These go for much higher too, but if you really want to hit a target sale, you can move these quickly at that price point.)

Literally all a player has to do is run a chest farm and Anchor sweep once through Bangkorai and they will have enough to cover 20K dues for a trader. Running a route through Bangkorai takes like 15-30 minutes.

But really, if a player isn't attempting to sell a decent amount of goods regularly or doesn't have 20K+ of potential goods to sell regularly, what is the point of even getting into a trader? New or casual players who are only looking to sell 1 item occasionally really have no business in the trader. Sell in zone.

Urigall

Kiosk costs vs revenue, for big guilds, based upon limited knowledge...and possibly a couple of howlers.

Guilds receive 3.5% of sales - 3.5 million per 100 million in sales. A guild has to meet the weekly, bid cost through sales and donations, before ongoing costs are covered. Some guilds are paying 10 million+ for their kiosks, or so I believe. Raising the gold for a 10 million gold bid would need 200 million in sales and 3 million in donations/raffle tickets (120 donations of 25k would be needed to generate the latter figure, or less donations plus some raffle tickets)

Bump up the kiosk bid to 15 million and the cost of covering overheads requires another 100 million in sales and another 1.5 million in donations/raffle tickets.

My figures for donations are probably generous: relatively few, guild members donate much gold.

Every 1 million a guild doesn't get in donations/raffle income means it needs...head spinning arithmetic...oh, stuff it...around an extra 30 million in sales?

Most big guilds are probably breaking even, at best, insofar as income vs overheads are concerned.

And huge apologies if my figures are wonky.

Androconium

jaws343 wrote: »

<snip>
20K in Sales in 1 Week:

1 piece of Purple Spriggans or Seventh Legion Jewelry: 20-40K.

1 piece Spriggans or Seventh legion body: 5-10K depending on trait. So 2-4 items to hit 20K.

1 piece Spriggan or Seventh legion weapon: 10-20K+. 1 or 2 items to hit 20K (These go for much higher too, but if you really want to hit a target sale, you can move these quickly at that price point.)

Literally all a player has to do is run a chest farm and Anchor sweep once through Bangkorai and they will have enough to cover 20K dues for a trader. Running a route through Bangkorai takes like 15-30 minutes.

But really, if a player isn't attempting to sell a decent amount of goods regularly or doesn't have 20K+ of potential goods to sell regularly, what is the point of even getting into a trader? New or casual players who are only looking to sell 1 item occasionally really have no business in the trader. Sell in zone.

There are at least five zones that can give this outcome.
Low-volume sales can be made in guilds with no trader or a trader in the middle of nowhere with no requirements.

One strategy I use is to call in to these roadside traders on chest-run missions to check for items to use, flip, or improve.
I also harvest mats on these runs.

The point remains that, one day per week for an hour or two of dedicated collecting, can generate enough items to make a usable amount of gold from.

therift

"Some guilds are paying 10 million+ for their kiosks, or so I believe..."

When the Rawl'kha takeover happened on PCNA, and it was alleged that GMs there were winning bids as low as a couple million, one of the GMs posted a screenshot that at least one losing bid was over 13 million.

Bids of ten million are modest for many capitol city kiosks.

Urigall

therift wrote: »

"Some guilds are paying 10 million+ for their kiosks, or so I believe..."

When the Rawl'kha takeover happened on PCNA, and it was alleged that GMs there were winning bids as low as a couple million, one of the GMs posted a screenshot that at least one losing bid was over 13 million.

Bids of ten million are modest for many capitol city kiosks.

A few months back, I know a bid in one city (wasn't Belkarth or Mournhold) was several million. Bids well over that figure in Belkarth and Mournhold wouldn't surprise me.

MasterLenman

generalmyrick wrote: »

im just imagining 300 people hailing 200 taxis to get to the hospital and if you miss on your first you dont go to the hospital...

versus

300 people hailing 200 taxis to get to the hospital and if you miss on your first you get 9 more tries to go to the hospital...

WE NEED A MINI GAME to practice.

If people shared taxis they could all reach their destination, easily. They should have allowed multi-guild-traders together with the multi-bidding. That would help small guilds.

Tatanko

Androconium wrote: »

Perhaps making it impossible to have the same location for more than one week at a time is the answer.

While I like this idea in theory, I'm definitely guilty of getting comfortable with certain guilds being in certain locations. I have particular guilds I go to when I want something specific (i.e. stockpiling basic materials) because they consistently have that thing and I know exactly where to find them.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Selling in zone is free

Never forget!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

WoW, GW2, FFXIV, etc. don't have functioning economies.

Their version of an "economy" is indeed very different from ours. I enjoy socializing with a few goldmakers from WoW and comparing notes, as they have to play their game 100% differently when it comes to trade. Since they have a central auction house, they're also able to take advantage of addons which can scan, buy, sell, etc. on their behalf as well -- taking a lot of the work out of otherwise advanced activities like flipping.

FlopsyPrince

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And some still think this is a wonderful system.

This shows how "wonderful" it really is.

I've been told that a central auction house always crashes the economy. Apparently, ESO is the only MMO with a functioning in-game economy. WoW, GW2, FFXIV, etc. don't have functioning economies.

I haven't played WoW for several years, but the economy seemed quite functional when I played.

FlopsyPrince

Flipping is a big way to make money here, yet one of the big complaints about a central AH I here is that people would monopolize things by flipping. (They don't use that word, but it is the same thing.)

How ironic and misleading.

MLGProPlayer

Urigall wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market.

I started trading with about 40k of seed capital and knew next to nothing about the market. I've made around 15 million now, partly thanks to MM. Made plenty of blunders along the way too.

You're not going to be selling 100k a week when you're spending <40k on items. And you don't want to waste all your gold on your investment either, in case it flops.

MLGProPlayer

therift wrote: »

"Some guilds are paying 10 million+ for their kiosks, or so I believe..."

When the Rawl'kha takeover happened on PCNA, and it was alleged that GMs there were winning bids as low as a couple million, one of the GMs posted a screenshot that at least one losing bid was over 13 million.

Bids of ten million are modest for many capitol city kiosks.

AUT's bid that week was 22.5 million gold.

MLGProPlayer

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Urigall wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

You need to bid higher to maintain spot - this means you need more tax/fees.

Agreed OsManiaC.

Double-edged sword though. I'm in a guild with 50k/week minimum sales. Our GM regularly has to kick players who join, then fail to meet the target. The players who are kicked last less than a week because the target is rigorously enforced. I don't blame the GM - the targets are necessary so our guild can to remain competitive at this level.

Bump sales targets up and other traders will be unable (or unwilling) to meet the new target. In some guilds, a trader who was hitting 50k/week could now have to meet 75k/week or 100k/week. (in practice, most of our traders seem able to sell well over 50k/week)

Sales targets/fees rise, more traders are kicked out of the guild. Filling the empty spots is now even harder because the targets are more demanding.

GMs will be aware that higher bids are probably going to be needed - especially in the better spots. Those GMs will know they might have to raise fees/targets. They'll also know raising fees/targets means more traders might have to be kicked and less, new traders will be willing to join because of the new targets. If targets/fees rise high enough, big guilds might end up full of the higher end traders.

Btw, I often see you in the bank. I'll wave next time.

Sales requirements have never been higher (due to bidding prices being at an all-time high). At the same time, the selling prices of items have never been lower. Material prices have dropped 300% over the last 2 years thanks to rampant botting oversupplying the market. Then there is the annual motif event that has effectively made every motif in the game worthless.

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market. Reaching weekly sales targets via farming will require an inordinate amount of time due to the extremely low prices on mats. It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

Or the guilds that have sky high/ridiculous dues will have people quit to find guilds that aren't a full time job to belong to. Unless there is some kind of video game ninja assassin squad that will show up at your RL house to kill if you quit a guild, everyone has the option of saying "No, the cost is too high", and walking away. There isn't any "you must sell eleventy billion gold a day or the game will ban you from playing forever" rule under the ToS and Code of Conduct the last time I looked. The people who actually play ESO TRADE WARS ONLINE will continue to be able to generate the sales needed, I guess. But no one can force you to do that.

Why do players feel the need to sell items and make eleventy billion gold a day, anyway? Even if you're buying crowns, there isn't exactly thousands of ways to spend it. Even if you buy every house that is possible to purchase for gold.....

Sure you can leave your top trade guild, if you enjoy waiting 14 days for your wares to sell.

MLGProPlayer

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And some still think this is a wonderful system.

This shows how "wonderful" it really is.

I've been told that a central auction house always crashes the economy. Apparently, ESO is the only MMO with a functioning in-game economy. WoW, GW2, FFXIV, etc. don't have functioning economies.

I haven't played WoW for several years, but the economy seemed quite functional when I played.

No way. The economics experts on here tell me it's not fine.

Tan9oSuccka

jaws343 wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I wonder what the tipping point will be for members of these guilds?

For me 20K isn’t much and that’s the logic everyone follows. “Oh you can make that up in sales”.

New or casual players are getting priced right out of the market. If out of the way guilds are charging 10k per week, there’s a prohibitive barrier to sell items for quite a few players.

It’s time to blow it all up. Global auction house please.

20K in Sales in 1 Week:

1 piece of Purple Spriggans or Seventh Legion Jewelry: 20-40K.

1 piece Spriggans or Seventh legion body: 5-10K depending on trait. So 2-4 items to hit 20K.

1 piece Spriggan or Seventh legion weapon: 10-20K+. 1 or 2 items to hit 20K (These go for much higher too, but if you really want to hit a target sale, you can move these quickly at that price point.)

Literally all a player has to do is run a chest farm and Anchor sweep once through Bangkorai and they will have enough to cover 20K dues for a trader. Running a route through Bangkorai takes like 15-30 minutes.

But really, if a player isn't attempting to sell a decent amount of goods regularly or doesn't have 20K+ of potential goods to sell regularly, what is the point of even getting into a trader? New or casual players who are only looking to sell 1 item occasionally really have no business in the trader. Sell in zone.

It’s true. There’s money to be made for people who have more gold than time.

For me, I seldom buy anything really. I have more AP and gold than I need.

I’d like to see something else implemented overall. I know these large trade conglomerates pay out a bunch for traders, but there has to be a benefit to do so. Whether it’s profit, power or control.

If I had to guess, the people running some of these conglomerate guilds have little authority or influence in real life and instead thrive with it in game.

MLGProPlayer

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I wonder what the tipping point will be for members of these guilds?

For me 20K isn’t much and that’s the logic everyone follows. “Oh you can make that up in sales”.

New or casual players are getting priced right out of the market. If out of the way guilds are charging 10k per week, there’s a prohibitive barrier to sell items for quite a few players.

It’s time to blow it all up. Global auction house please.

20K in Sales in 1 Week:

1 piece of Purple Spriggans or Seventh Legion Jewelry: 20-40K.

1 piece Spriggans or Seventh legion body: 5-10K depending on trait. So 2-4 items to hit 20K.

1 piece Spriggan or Seventh legion weapon: 10-20K+. 1 or 2 items to hit 20K (These go for much higher too, but if you really want to hit a target sale, you can move these quickly at that price point.)

Literally all a player has to do is run a chest farm and Anchor sweep once through Bangkorai and they will have enough to cover 20K dues for a trader. Running a route through Bangkorai takes like 15-30 minutes.

But really, if a player isn't attempting to sell a decent amount of goods regularly or doesn't have 20K+ of potential goods to sell regularly, what is the point of even getting into a trader? New or casual players who are only looking to sell 1 item occasionally really have no business in the trader. Sell in zone.

It’s true. There’s money to be made for people who have more gold than time.

For me, I seldom buy anything really. I have more AP and gold than I need.

I’d like to see something else implemented overall. I know these large trade conglomerates pay out a bunch for traders, but there has to be a benefit to do so. Whether it’s profit, power or control.

If I had to guess, the people running some of these conglomerate guilds have little authority or influence in real life and instead thrive with it in game.

They charge these amounts because they have to. There is no ulterior motive. The market for these traders is actually that competitive.

It's a problem with the design of ESO's trade system

therift

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

therift wrote: »

"Some guilds are paying 10 million+ for their kiosks, or so I believe..."

When the Rawl'kha takeover happened on PCNA, and it was alleged that GMs there were winning bids as low as a couple million, one of the GMs posted a screenshot that at least one losing bid was over 13 million.

Bids of ten million are modest for many capitol city kiosks.

AUT's bid that week was 22.5 million gold.

Many thanks. I had forgotten the correct number and was unable to locate the post. I had the feeling it was significantly higher than the number to which I committed. Kudos once again to AUT for disclosing private information in the interest of refuting claims that guilds bid much less than they imply. The willingness to disclose helped us all.

WrathOfInnos

I could see a short term increase being needed, or a few guild fund raising events, to ensure there is enough money in the guild bank to cover multiple trader bids. Long term however, there won’t be a need for higher fees, since you only actually pay for one trader spot and the other bids are returned. There is not a higher weekly cost associated with the new system, it just requires a larger pool of cash at any time.