Doubling Guild Fees (and more rumors)

jainiadral

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Just a random aside re gold sinks: The best and most reliable sink is having a good stable of in-game goods worth purchasing from vendor NPCs. Mounts, armor, fun little furnishing doo-dads, pets... Of course, that requires design and development time unlike this

They've developed plenty of things worth purchasing. They're just exclusive to the crown store/crates.

And the true irony is that you can't trade those items for gold This is the only game I've played where you can't sell any cash shop cosmetics for either straight gold or gold through a game-controlled conversion. There's nothing worth buying, little worth selling. Unless you're into housing or want to outsource resource gathering, there's nothing worthwhile to spend gold on.

Between this and and a few assertions that casuals don't belong in the trading system, I'm kind of boggled that anyone can even say ESO has an economy. Sure, you have the limited number of people who articipate in the clique system and a few peeps who try to sell in zone chat. But otherwise, you've got a bunch of players sitting like mini-Smaugs on various piles of gold because there's nothing to do with it.

This isn't a player economy. It's madness

therift

Gold = Points.

I don't care to spend it. Smaug is my hero.

jainiadral

Points for no reason are pointless

GarnetFire17

not all guilds are raising their requirements, some are just working harder to raise funds, and make a few cut backs on their costs here and there and pulling strings from their friends that have a lot of gold to the amount they think they need.

therift

jainiadral wrote: »

Points for no reason are pointless

They are more important to me than Titles, which are useless; Skins, which are ugly compared to Outfit System, and all Achievements that don't unlock a furnishing or dye. Everyone has priorities. Most probably don't match yours

jainiadral

therift wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Points for no reason are pointless

They are more important to me than Titles, which are useless; Skins, which are ugly compared to Outfit System, and all Achievements that don't unlock a furnishing or dye. Everyone has priorities. Most probably don't match yours

To be fair, most of your meh list matches mine I'd add motifs and outfits to mine since I costumes. And gold. I'm more of a mini-Smaugette but only because there's nothing worthwhile to do with my fake money.

I wish there was a point for casuals to participate in the economy. Sitting out, while stress-free, feels unproductive. Disconnected.

JKorr

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Urigall wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

You need to bid higher to maintain spot - this means you need more tax/fees.

Agreed OsManiaC.

Double-edged sword though. I'm in a guild with 50k/week minimum sales. Our GM regularly has to kick players who join, then fail to meet the target. The players who are kicked last less than a week because the target is rigorously enforced. I don't blame the GM - the targets are necessary so our guild can to remain competitive at this level.

Bump sales targets up and other traders will be unable (or unwilling) to meet the new target. In some guilds, a trader who was hitting 50k/week could now have to meet 75k/week or 100k/week. (in practice, most of our traders seem able to sell well over 50k/week)

Sales targets/fees rise, more traders are kicked out of the guild. Filling the empty spots is now even harder because the targets are more demanding.

GMs will be aware that higher bids are probably going to be needed - especially in the better spots. Those GMs will know they might have to raise fees/targets. They'll also know raising fees/targets means more traders might have to be kicked and less, new traders will be willing to join because of the new targets. If targets/fees rise high enough, big guilds might end up full of the higher end traders.

Btw, I often see you in the bank. I'll wave next time.

Sales requirements have never been higher (due to bidding prices being at an all-time high). At the same time, the selling prices of items have never been lower. Material prices have dropped 300% over the last 2 years thanks to rampant botting oversupplying the market. Then there is the annual motif event that has effectively made every motif in the game worthless.

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market. Reaching weekly sales targets via farming will require an inordinate amount of time due to the extremely low prices on mats. It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

Or the guilds that have sky high/ridiculous dues will have people quit to find guilds that aren't a full time job to belong to. Unless there is some kind of video game ninja assassin squad that will show up at your RL house to kill if you quit a guild, everyone has the option of saying "No, the cost is too high", and walking away. There isn't any "you must sell eleventy billion gold a day or the game will ban you from playing forever" rule under the ToS and Code of Conduct the last time I looked. The people who actually play ESO TRADE WARS ONLINE will continue to be able to generate the sales needed, I guess. But no one can force you to do that.

Why do players feel the need to sell items and make eleventy billion gold a day, anyway? Even if you're buying crowns, there isn't exactly thousands of ways to spend it. Even if you buy every house that is possible to purchase for gold.....

Sure you can leave your top trade guild, if you enjoy waiting 14 days for your wares to sell.

And the problem with that, if you have no "required to pay super high dues or you're kicked" is what? You are in a guild with much lower or nonexistent dues. What are you doing that requires a constant super high amount of gold income if you aren't paying super high dues to a trading guild? I guess if you're buying gold jewelry for every character you have, but other than something like that, and houses, what activity in the game requires earning tens of thousands of gold every day/week?

Pevey

therift wrote: »

"Some guilds are paying 10 million+ for their kiosks, or so I believe..."

When the Rawl'kha takeover happened on PCNA, and it was alleged that GMs there were winning bids as low as a couple million, one of the GMs posted a screenshot that at least one losing bid was over 13 million.

Bids of ten million are modest for many capitol city kiosks.

The screenshot posted was of a losing bid over 20m

Pevey

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And some still think this is a wonderful system.

This shows how "wonderful" it really is.

I've been told that a central auction house always crashes the economy. Apparently, ESO is the only MMO with a functioning in-game economy. WoW, GW2, FFXIV, etc. don't have functioning economies.

I haven't played WoW for several years, but the economy seemed quite functional when I played.

Pretty sure poster was being sarcastic.

Loves_guars

The whole guild trader system is at least good for popcorn sessions. It's so absurd that at this point I find it hilarious.

jainiadral wrote: »

Just a random aside re gold sinks: The best and most reliable sink is having a good stable of in-game goods worth purchasing from vendor NPCs. Mounts, armor, fun little furnishing doo-dads, pets... Of course, that requires design and development time unlike this

For real... heaven forbid we have fun spending gold.

barney2525

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Urigall wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

You need to bid higher to maintain spot - this means you need more tax/fees.

Agreed OsManiaC.

Double-edged sword though. I'm in a guild with 50k/week minimum sales. Our GM regularly has to kick players who join, then fail to meet the target. The players who are kicked last less than a week because the target is rigorously enforced. I don't blame the GM - the targets are necessary so our guild can to remain competitive at this level.

Bump sales targets up and other traders will be unable (or unwilling) to meet the new target. In some guilds, a trader who was hitting 50k/week could now have to meet 75k/week or 100k/week. (in practice, most of our traders seem able to sell well over 50k/week)

Sales targets/fees rise, more traders are kicked out of the guild. Filling the empty spots is now even harder because the targets are more demanding.

GMs will be aware that higher bids are probably going to be needed - especially in the better spots. Those GMs will know they might have to raise fees/targets. They'll also know raising fees/targets means more traders might have to be kicked and less, new traders will be willing to join because of the new targets. If targets/fees rise high enough, big guilds might end up full of the higher end traders.

Btw, I often see you in the bank. I'll wave next time.

Sales requirements have never been higher (due to bidding prices being at an all-time high). At the same time, the selling prices of items have never been lower. Material prices have dropped 300% over the last 2 years thanks to rampant botting oversupplying the market. Then there is the annual motif event that has effectively made every motif in the game worthless.

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market. Reaching weekly sales targets via farming will require an inordinate amount of time due to the extremely low prices on mats. It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

Or the guilds that have sky high/ridiculous dues will have people quit to find guilds that aren't a full time job to belong to. Unless there is some kind of video game ninja assassin squad that will show up at your RL house to kill if you quit a guild, everyone has the option of saying "No, the cost is too high", and walking away. There isn't any "you must sell eleventy billion gold a day or the game will ban you from playing forever" rule under the ToS and Code of Conduct the last time I looked. The people who actually play ESO TRADE WARS ONLINE will continue to be able to generate the sales needed, I guess. But no one can force you to do that.

Why do players feel the need to sell items and make eleventy billion gold a day, anyway? Even if you're buying crowns, there isn't exactly thousands of ways to spend it. Even if you buy every house that is possible to purchase for gold.....

The average player doesn't care about making elevenity billion gold.

The average player simply wants to sell occasional items they find that have worth.

Most other games all you have to do is click an icon on your screen, pull up the Global Auction House, and list the item. And in doing so, EVERY player in the game becomes a potential customer.

This game does NOT ALLOW every player to offer an item for sale to Every player in the game. This game does NOT ALLOW Every player to sell in a structured system. You are REQUIRED to join a trading guild to just be a part of the system.

As an aside, I'm not buying the ' I just quit and change guilds every week and they always let me back '. Guild leaders are not stupid. They are going to track this type of action. If you have no loyalty to the Guild, they are not going to have any loyalty to You, and therefore eventually when you apply, you will be rejected.

IMHO

MLGProPlayer

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Urigall wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

You need to bid higher to maintain spot - this means you need more tax/fees.

Agreed OsManiaC.

Double-edged sword though. I'm in a guild with 50k/week minimum sales. Our GM regularly has to kick players who join, then fail to meet the target. The players who are kicked last less than a week because the target is rigorously enforced. I don't blame the GM - the targets are necessary so our guild can to remain competitive at this level.

Bump sales targets up and other traders will be unable (or unwilling) to meet the new target. In some guilds, a trader who was hitting 50k/week could now have to meet 75k/week or 100k/week. (in practice, most of our traders seem able to sell well over 50k/week)

Sales targets/fees rise, more traders are kicked out of the guild. Filling the empty spots is now even harder because the targets are more demanding.

GMs will be aware that higher bids are probably going to be needed - especially in the better spots. Those GMs will know they might have to raise fees/targets. They'll also know raising fees/targets means more traders might have to be kicked and less, new traders will be willing to join because of the new targets. If targets/fees rise high enough, big guilds might end up full of the higher end traders.

Btw, I often see you in the bank. I'll wave next time.

Sales requirements have never been higher (due to bidding prices being at an all-time high). At the same time, the selling prices of items have never been lower. Material prices have dropped 300% over the last 2 years thanks to rampant botting oversupplying the market. Then there is the annual motif event that has effectively made every motif in the game worthless.

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market. Reaching weekly sales targets via farming will require an inordinate amount of time due to the extremely low prices on mats. It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

Or the guilds that have sky high/ridiculous dues will have people quit to find guilds that aren't a full time job to belong to. Unless there is some kind of video game ninja assassin squad that will show up at your RL house to kill if you quit a guild, everyone has the option of saying "No, the cost is too high", and walking away. There isn't any "you must sell eleventy billion gold a day or the game will ban you from playing forever" rule under the ToS and Code of Conduct the last time I looked. The people who actually play ESO TRADE WARS ONLINE will continue to be able to generate the sales needed, I guess. But no one can force you to do that.

Why do players feel the need to sell items and make eleventy billion gold a day, anyway? Even if you're buying crowns, there isn't exactly thousands of ways to spend it. Even if you buy every house that is possible to purchase for gold.....

Sure you can leave your top trade guild, if you enjoy waiting 14 days for your wares to sell.

And the problem with that, if you have no "required to pay super high dues or you're kicked" is what? You are in a guild with much lower or nonexistent dues. What are you doing that requires a constant super high amount of gold income if you aren't paying super high dues to a trading guild? I guess if you're buying gold jewelry for every character you have, but other than something like that, and houses, what activity in the game requires earning tens of thousands of gold every day/week?

Potions. Food.

8 pieces of gold food costs 24,000 gold
200 Spell Power potions cost 30,000 gold

That's 54,000 gold/week on food/potions alone (and it could go much higher than that if you play more than just casually)

Androconium

barney2525 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Urigall wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

You need to bid higher to maintain spot - this means you need more tax/fees.

Agreed OsManiaC.

Double-edged sword though. I'm in a guild with 50k/week minimum sales. Our GM regularly has to kick players who join, then fail to meet the target. The players who are kicked last less than a week because the target is rigorously enforced. I don't blame the GM - the targets are necessary so our guild can to remain competitive at this level.

Bump sales targets up and other traders will be unable (or unwilling) to meet the new target. In some guilds, a trader who was hitting 50k/week could now have to meet 75k/week or 100k/week. (in practice, most of our traders seem able to sell well over 50k/week)

Sales targets/fees rise, more traders are kicked out of the guild. Filling the empty spots is now even harder because the targets are more demanding.

GMs will be aware that higher bids are probably going to be needed - especially in the better spots. Those GMs will know they might have to raise fees/targets. They'll also know raising fees/targets means more traders might have to be kicked and less, new traders will be willing to join because of the new targets. If targets/fees rise high enough, big guilds might end up full of the higher end traders.

Btw, I often see you in the bank. I'll wave next time.

Sales requirements have never been higher (due to bidding prices being at an all-time high). At the same time, the selling prices of items have never been lower. Material prices have dropped 300% over the last 2 years thanks to rampant botting oversupplying the market. Then there is the annual motif event that has effectively made every motif in the game worthless.

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market. Reaching weekly sales targets via farming will require an inordinate amount of time due to the extremely low prices on mats. It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

Or the guilds that have sky high/ridiculous dues will have people quit to find guilds that aren't a full time job to belong to. Unless there is some kind of video game ninja assassin squad that will show up at your RL house to kill if you quit a guild, everyone has the option of saying "No, the cost is too high", and walking away. There isn't any "you must sell eleventy billion gold a day or the game will ban you from playing forever" rule under the ToS and Code of Conduct the last time I looked. The people who actually play ESO TRADE WARS ONLINE will continue to be able to generate the sales needed, I guess. But no one can force you to do that.

Why do players feel the need to sell items and make eleventy billion gold a day, anyway? Even if you're buying crowns, there isn't exactly thousands of ways to spend it. Even if you buy every house that is possible to purchase for gold.....

The average player doesn't care about making elevenity billion gold.

The average player simply wants to sell occasional items they find that have worth.

Most other games all you have to do is click an icon on your screen, pull up the Global Auction House, and list the item. And in doing so, EVERY player in the game becomes a potential customer.

This game does NOT ALLOW every player to offer an item for sale to Every player in the game. This game does NOT ALLOW Every player to sell in a structured system. You are REQUIRED to join a trading guild to just be a part of the system.

As an aside, I'm not buying the ' I just quit and change guilds every week and they always let me back '. Guild leaders are not stupid. They are going to track this type of action. If you have no loyalty to the Guild, they are not going to have any loyalty to You, and therefore eventually when you apply, you will be rejected.

IMHO

And I'm not buying this:

The average player simply wants to sell occasional items they find that have worth.

Whilst I agree with the statement, I don't agree with what YOU imply by it and the rest of your comments.

IF you only want to trade sporadically, that's fine. There are many guilds that offer no requirements and have a trader. "The Old Merchants II" is one such guild. Please contact them for a place. The downside is that they don't always have a trader; and when they do its often in an out-of-the-way location. That's the reality of no-fee guilds.

That has never stopped ME from selling through those traders and just as importantly, buying from them as well. These remote traders are heaven for flippers who come in buy up items that otherwise would not sell. This would include the occasional item that you might have of worth.

What I have learned over the years and repeated many times on this forum is:

• Whatever you have, someone wants to buy it.
• Whatever you have will sell, as long as you correctly price it.
• If you found or harvested it, it cost you nothing.
• If it cost you nothing, then it doesn't matter how much you make from it, you're up on the deal.

There are also plenty of guilds that never have traders, you can still have access to several hundred buyers from within the guild. These guilds will be focused on game play and my provide you with a more satisfying game overall.

You can always advertise your occasional item in Zone chat and attempt to sell it there.


I do leave guilds when I can no longer be bothered to commit to sales requirements.
I do get accepted back when I ask to rejoin.
I can't force you to accept that reality.

JKorr

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Urigall wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

You need to bid higher to maintain spot - this means you need more tax/fees.

Agreed OsManiaC.

Double-edged sword though. I'm in a guild with 50k/week minimum sales. Our GM regularly has to kick players who join, then fail to meet the target. The players who are kicked last less than a week because the target is rigorously enforced. I don't blame the GM - the targets are necessary so our guild can to remain competitive at this level.

Bump sales targets up and other traders will be unable (or unwilling) to meet the new target. In some guilds, a trader who was hitting 50k/week could now have to meet 75k/week or 100k/week. (in practice, most of our traders seem able to sell well over 50k/week)

Sales targets/fees rise, more traders are kicked out of the guild. Filling the empty spots is now even harder because the targets are more demanding.

GMs will be aware that higher bids are probably going to be needed - especially in the better spots. Those GMs will know they might have to raise fees/targets. They'll also know raising fees/targets means more traders might have to be kicked and less, new traders will be willing to join because of the new targets. If targets/fees rise high enough, big guilds might end up full of the higher end traders.

Btw, I often see you in the bank. I'll wave next time.

Sales requirements have never been higher (due to bidding prices being at an all-time high). At the same time, the selling prices of items have never been lower. Material prices have dropped 300% over the last 2 years thanks to rampant botting oversupplying the market. Then there is the annual motif event that has effectively made every motif in the game worthless.

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market. Reaching weekly sales targets via farming will require an inordinate amount of time due to the extremely low prices on mats. It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

Or the guilds that have sky high/ridiculous dues will have people quit to find guilds that aren't a full time job to belong to. Unless there is some kind of video game ninja assassin squad that will show up at your RL house to kill if you quit a guild, everyone has the option of saying "No, the cost is too high", and walking away. There isn't any "you must sell eleventy billion gold a day or the game will ban you from playing forever" rule under the ToS and Code of Conduct the last time I looked. The people who actually play ESO TRADE WARS ONLINE will continue to be able to generate the sales needed, I guess. But no one can force you to do that.

Why do players feel the need to sell items and make eleventy billion gold a day, anyway? Even if you're buying crowns, there isn't exactly thousands of ways to spend it. Even if you buy every house that is possible to purchase for gold.....

Sure you can leave your top trade guild, if you enjoy waiting 14 days for your wares to sell.

And the problem with that, if you have no "required to pay super high dues or you're kicked" is what? You are in a guild with much lower or nonexistent dues. What are you doing that requires a constant super high amount of gold income if you aren't paying super high dues to a trading guild? I guess if you're buying gold jewelry for every character you have, but other than something like that, and houses, what activity in the game requires earning tens of thousands of gold every day/week?

Potions. Food.

8 pieces of gold food costs 24,000 gold
200 Spell Power potions cost 30,000 gold

That's 54,000 gold/week on food/potions alone (and it could go much higher than that if you play more than just casually)

Might be a really stupid question because I don't do the high requirement end game content, but would farming for the stuff you need to make those potions and food take less time and effort that farming stuff to sell to make the gold to buy those items?

Unsolicited personal opinion; if you are consistently doing content that absolutely requires using that many food and potions that cost that much, you are not playing casually. Right now two of the three characters I'm using the most have about a hundred weapon power potions, the other has about a hundred spell power potions. All of the full roster of my characters have at least a hundred blue food with the stat they need the most, and health. I do pick up surveys, but normally I pick up mats while I'm going from one place to another for quests, or exploring. I play casually. Doing content that requires gold food and that many potions in one sitting isn't anything I'd recognize as casual.

Palidon

Simple solution to the guild trader high price requirements is sell your stuff in zone. I have to agree with some of the other comments posted in this thread.

Whatever you have, someone wants to buy it.
Whatever you have will sell, as long as you correctly price it.
If you found or harvested it, it cost you nothing.
If it cost you nothing, then it doesn't matter how much you make from it, you're up on the deal. I research what a particular item I have is selling for then undercut that price. Still make a profit.

I would rather sell my stuff in zone than pay 10k or more in raffle tickets each week or meet Ridiculous weekly sales requirements each week to be in a trade guild. However, I do not blame the trade guilds. ZOS created this mess by getting ready to implement the multi bid system. There was never a reason for it.

VaranisArano

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Urigall wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

You need to bid higher to maintain spot - this means you need more tax/fees.

Agreed OsManiaC.

Double-edged sword though. I'm in a guild with 50k/week minimum sales. Our GM regularly has to kick players who join, then fail to meet the target. The players who are kicked last less than a week because the target is rigorously enforced. I don't blame the GM - the targets are necessary so our guild can to remain competitive at this level.

Bump sales targets up and other traders will be unable (or unwilling) to meet the new target. In some guilds, a trader who was hitting 50k/week could now have to meet 75k/week or 100k/week. (in practice, most of our traders seem able to sell well over 50k/week)

Sales targets/fees rise, more traders are kicked out of the guild. Filling the empty spots is now even harder because the targets are more demanding.

GMs will be aware that higher bids are probably going to be needed - especially in the better spots. Those GMs will know they might have to raise fees/targets. They'll also know raising fees/targets means more traders might have to be kicked and less, new traders will be willing to join because of the new targets. If targets/fees rise high enough, big guilds might end up full of the higher end traders.

Btw, I often see you in the bank. I'll wave next time.

Sales requirements have never been higher (due to bidding prices being at an all-time high). At the same time, the selling prices of items have never been lower. Material prices have dropped 300% over the last 2 years thanks to rampant botting oversupplying the market. Then there is the annual motif event that has effectively made every motif in the game worthless.

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market. Reaching weekly sales targets via farming will require an inordinate amount of time due to the extremely low prices on mats. It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

Or the guilds that have sky high/ridiculous dues will have people quit to find guilds that aren't a full time job to belong to. Unless there is some kind of video game ninja assassin squad that will show up at your RL house to kill if you quit a guild, everyone has the option of saying "No, the cost is too high", and walking away. There isn't any "you must sell eleventy billion gold a day or the game will ban you from playing forever" rule under the ToS and Code of Conduct the last time I looked. The people who actually play ESO TRADE WARS ONLINE will continue to be able to generate the sales needed, I guess. But no one can force you to do that.

Why do players feel the need to sell items and make eleventy billion gold a day, anyway? Even if you're buying crowns, there isn't exactly thousands of ways to spend it. Even if you buy every house that is possible to purchase for gold.....

Sure you can leave your top trade guild, if you enjoy waiting 14 days for your wares to sell.

And the problem with that, if you have no "required to pay super high dues or you're kicked" is what? You are in a guild with much lower or nonexistent dues. What are you doing that requires a constant super high amount of gold income if you aren't paying super high dues to a trading guild? I guess if you're buying gold jewelry for every character you have, but other than something like that, and houses, what activity in the game requires earning tens of thousands of gold every day/week?

Potions. Food.

8 pieces of gold food costs 24,000 gold
200 Spell Power potions cost 30,000 gold

That's 54,000 gold/week on food/potions alone (and it could go much higher than that if you play more than just casually)

Might be a really stupid question because I don't do the high requirement end game content, but would farming for the stuff you need to make those potions and food take less time and effort that farming stuff to sell to make the gold to buy those items?

Unsolicited personal opinion; if you are consistently doing content that absolutely requires using that many food and potions that cost that much, you are not playing casually. Right now two of the three characters I'm using the most have about a hundred weapon power potions, the other has about a hundred spell power potions. All of the full roster of my characters have at least a hundred blue food with the stat they need the most, and health. I do pick up surveys, but normally I pick up mats while I'm going from one place to another for quests, or exploring. I play casually. Doing content that requires gold food and that many potions in one sitting isn't anything I'd recognize as casual.

When I farmed regularly, it would take roughly 5 to 10 hours to gather between 50 to 100 of each alchemy reagent, depending on the spawns. I did not farm casually.

Most gold provisioning recipes require Perfect Roe, which requires fishing and drops at approximately a 1 in 100 drop rate. I never timed myself fishing, but it takes a while and RNG is fickle. You can get 3 Roe out of 30 or none out of 300. When Artaeum Takeaway Broth is used, that requires 5 powered mother of pearl, which requires grinding geysers, hunting for very rare clams who may not drop it, or rarely obtained in Tel Var alchemy satchels.

So for a player who regularly buys their potions, food, or the mats to make them, it's much faster to farm for high value stuff to sell in order to make the gold than to farm the materials themselves.

MartiniDaniels

Good change, in terms to spice up trading system. Now it is too easy and casual - I personally sit in trading guild with craglorn trader and all possible guild cookies and trading requirements are so low that I can easily meet them even when I don't play the game more then once a week.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And some still think this is a wonderful system.

This shows how "wonderful" it really is.

this is a wonderful system...if ur not leading a trading guild just join top tier guilds and be done with it...if you own a successful guild then its time to quit and become a regular trader...since this is pointless to even try to start new trading guilds in this game.

anitajoneb17_ESO

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And some still think this is a wonderful system.

This shows how "wonderful" it really is.

this is a wonderful system...if ur not leading a trading guild just join top tier guilds and be done with it...if you own a successful guild then its time to quit and become a regular trader...since this is pointless to even try to start new trading guilds in this game.

Like with everyone who claim they'll quit (at least here on the forums) I prefer to wait and see what they really do. Frankly no matter how loud they complain, I don't believe any of them is likely to quit over multibidding.

FlopsyPrince

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Urigall wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

You need to bid higher to maintain spot - this means you need more tax/fees.

Agreed OsManiaC.

Double-edged sword though. I'm in a guild with 50k/week minimum sales. Our GM regularly has to kick players who join, then fail to meet the target. The players who are kicked last less than a week because the target is rigorously enforced. I don't blame the GM - the targets are necessary so our guild can to remain competitive at this level.

Bump sales targets up and other traders will be unable (or unwilling) to meet the new target. In some guilds, a trader who was hitting 50k/week could now have to meet 75k/week or 100k/week. (in practice, most of our traders seem able to sell well over 50k/week)

Sales targets/fees rise, more traders are kicked out of the guild. Filling the empty spots is now even harder because the targets are more demanding.

GMs will be aware that higher bids are probably going to be needed - especially in the better spots. Those GMs will know they might have to raise fees/targets. They'll also know raising fees/targets means more traders might have to be kicked and less, new traders will be willing to join because of the new targets. If targets/fees rise high enough, big guilds might end up full of the higher end traders.

Btw, I often see you in the bank. I'll wave next time.

Sales requirements have never been higher (due to bidding prices being at an all-time high). At the same time, the selling prices of items have never been lower. Material prices have dropped 300% over the last 2 years thanks to rampant botting oversupplying the market. Then there is the annual motif event that has effectively made every motif in the game worthless.

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market. Reaching weekly sales targets via farming will require an inordinate amount of time due to the extremely low prices on mats. It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

Or the guilds that have sky high/ridiculous dues will have people quit to find guilds that aren't a full time job to belong to. Unless there is some kind of video game ninja assassin squad that will show up at your RL house to kill if you quit a guild, everyone has the option of saying "No, the cost is too high", and walking away. There isn't any "you must sell eleventy billion gold a day or the game will ban you from playing forever" rule under the ToS and Code of Conduct the last time I looked. The people who actually play ESO TRADE WARS ONLINE will continue to be able to generate the sales needed, I guess. But no one can force you to do that.

Why do players feel the need to sell items and make eleventy billion gold a day, anyway? Even if you're buying crowns, there isn't exactly thousands of ways to spend it. Even if you buy every house that is possible to purchase for gold.....

Sure you can leave your top trade guild, if you enjoy waiting 14 days for your wares to sell.

And the problem with that, if you have no "required to pay super high dues or you're kicked" is what? You are in a guild with much lower or nonexistent dues. What are you doing that requires a constant super high amount of gold income if you aren't paying super high dues to a trading guild? I guess if you're buying gold jewelry for every character you have, but other than something like that, and houses, what activity in the game requires earning tens of thousands of gold every day/week?

Potions. Food.

8 pieces of gold food costs 24,000 gold
200 Spell Power potions cost 30,000 gold

That's 54,000 gold/week on food/potions alone (and it could go much higher than that if you play more than just casually)

Which food/drink/potion is that? I have hirelings, so I probably have at least some of the mats. I could use a lot more gold now, especially on EU. I have a fair bit on NA, but it could be better there too.

Pevey wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And some still think this is a wonderful system.

This shows how "wonderful" it really is.

I've been told that a central auction house always crashes the economy. Apparently, ESO is the only MMO with a functioning in-game economy. WoW, GW2, FFXIV, etc. don't have functioning economies.

I haven't played WoW for several years, but the economy seemed quite functional when I played.

Pretty sure poster was being sarcastic.

Perhaps, but that definitely seems to be the attitude of some who openly LOVE this system. They say it is so much better than a centralized AH, which is bunk.

I am getting VERY frustrated now trying to find some things (nirnhoned trait items to use for research and patterns are big ones now) as well as figuring out what a decent price to sell things for so I can generate some more gold, especially on EU where I am still growing all my bag and bank space. Not so bad once all that is done, but that is a huge personal gold sink. Though now that I am learning for Master Writs on NA I am spending too much time looking for pricing and existence of some needed patterns. The current system makes that a huge time sink and likely to lose (or not earn) far too much gold since I want to level my characters (personal level and crafting levels) rather than spend all my game time running around to traders using the clunky PS4 interface there.

FlopsyPrince

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And some still think this is a wonderful system.

This shows how "wonderful" it really is.

this is a wonderful system...if ur not leading a trading guild just join top tier guilds and be done with it...if you own a successful guild then its time to quit and become a regular trader...since this is pointless to even try to start new trading guilds in this game.

Like with everyone who claim they'll quit (at least here on the forums) I prefer to wait and see what they really do. Frankly no matter how loud they complain, I don't believe any of them is likely to quit over multibidding.

None of that makes this system any good. Sure, I can join a great trading guild, but that still doesn't solve the problem of

- Knowing a good price for something (buying or selling)
- Finding something I want/need at a decent price

I only have the base game and ZOS knows everything has to be in the game for console (PS4/XBOX) so they are responsible for making the game better, not relying on others to do their work for them (addons).

DragonRacer

@FlopsyPrince - let me know what nirnhoned you still need for research. If you have the nirn to send, I can make any research pieces you need. Some other guildies can as well, if needed.

MLGProPlayer

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Urigall wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

You need to bid higher to maintain spot - this means you need more tax/fees.

Agreed OsManiaC.

Double-edged sword though. I'm in a guild with 50k/week minimum sales. Our GM regularly has to kick players who join, then fail to meet the target. The players who are kicked last less than a week because the target is rigorously enforced. I don't blame the GM - the targets are necessary so our guild can to remain competitive at this level.

Bump sales targets up and other traders will be unable (or unwilling) to meet the new target. In some guilds, a trader who was hitting 50k/week could now have to meet 75k/week or 100k/week. (in practice, most of our traders seem able to sell well over 50k/week)

Sales targets/fees rise, more traders are kicked out of the guild. Filling the empty spots is now even harder because the targets are more demanding.

GMs will be aware that higher bids are probably going to be needed - especially in the better spots. Those GMs will know they might have to raise fees/targets. They'll also know raising fees/targets means more traders might have to be kicked and less, new traders will be willing to join because of the new targets. If targets/fees rise high enough, big guilds might end up full of the higher end traders.

Btw, I often see you in the bank. I'll wave next time.

Sales requirements have never been higher (due to bidding prices being at an all-time high). At the same time, the selling prices of items have never been lower. Material prices have dropped 300% over the last 2 years thanks to rampant botting oversupplying the market. Then there is the annual motif event that has effectively made every motif in the game worthless.

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market. Reaching weekly sales targets via farming will require an inordinate amount of time due to the extremely low prices on mats. It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

Or the guilds that have sky high/ridiculous dues will have people quit to find guilds that aren't a full time job to belong to. Unless there is some kind of video game ninja assassin squad that will show up at your RL house to kill if you quit a guild, everyone has the option of saying "No, the cost is too high", and walking away. There isn't any "you must sell eleventy billion gold a day or the game will ban you from playing forever" rule under the ToS and Code of Conduct the last time I looked. The people who actually play ESO TRADE WARS ONLINE will continue to be able to generate the sales needed, I guess. But no one can force you to do that.

Why do players feel the need to sell items and make eleventy billion gold a day, anyway? Even if you're buying crowns, there isn't exactly thousands of ways to spend it. Even if you buy every house that is possible to purchase for gold.....

Sure you can leave your top trade guild, if you enjoy waiting 14 days for your wares to sell.

And the problem with that, if you have no "required to pay super high dues or you're kicked" is what? You are in a guild with much lower or nonexistent dues. What are you doing that requires a constant super high amount of gold income if you aren't paying super high dues to a trading guild? I guess if you're buying gold jewelry for every character you have, but other than something like that, and houses, what activity in the game requires earning tens of thousands of gold every day/week?

Potions. Food.

8 pieces of gold food costs 24,000 gold
200 Spell Power potions cost 30,000 gold

That's 54,000 gold/week on food/potions alone (and it could go much higher than that if you play more than just casually)

Which food/drink/potion is that? I have hirelings, so I probably have at least some of the mats. I could use a lot more gold now, especially on EU. I have a fair bit on NA, but it could be better there too.

Pevey wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And some still think this is a wonderful system.

This shows how "wonderful" it really is.

I've been told that a central auction house always crashes the economy. Apparently, ESO is the only MMO with a functioning in-game economy. WoW, GW2, FFXIV, etc. don't have functioning economies.

I haven't played WoW for several years, but the economy seemed quite functional when I played.

Pretty sure poster was being sarcastic.

Perhaps, but that definitely seems to be the attitude of some who openly LOVE this system. They say it is so much better than a centralized AH, which is bunk.

I am getting VERY frustrated now trying to find some things (nirnhoned trait items to use for research and patterns are big ones now) as well as figuring out what a decent price to sell things for so I can generate some more gold, especially on EU where I am still growing all my bag and bank space. Not so bad once all that is done, but that is a huge personal gold sink. Though now that I am learning for Master Writs on NA I am spending too much time looking for pricing and existence of some needed patterns. The current system makes that a huge time sink and likely to lose (or not earn) far too much gold since I want to level my characters (personal level and crafting levels) rather than spend all my game time running around to traders using the clunky PS4 interface there.

All gold food requires 1x perfect roe (for 4 drinks/meals). 1x roe is about 12k right now (about the only thing holding value since bots don't fish).

FlopsyPrince

DragonRacer wrote: »

@FlopsyPrince - let me know what nirnhoned you still need for research. If you have the nirn to send, I can make any research pieces you need. Some other guildies can as well, if needed.

I will let you and the guild know then. I didn't want to mooch that much.

Much of my problem finding the stuff is on the EU server now however (PS4). Much harder to find there.

JKorr

VaranisArano wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Urigall wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

You need to bid higher to maintain spot - this means you need more tax/fees.

Agreed OsManiaC.

Double-edged sword though. I'm in a guild with 50k/week minimum sales. Our GM regularly has to kick players who join, then fail to meet the target. The players who are kicked last less than a week because the target is rigorously enforced. I don't blame the GM - the targets are necessary so our guild can to remain competitive at this level.

Bump sales targets up and other traders will be unable (or unwilling) to meet the new target. In some guilds, a trader who was hitting 50k/week could now have to meet 75k/week or 100k/week. (in practice, most of our traders seem able to sell well over 50k/week)

Sales targets/fees rise, more traders are kicked out of the guild. Filling the empty spots is now even harder because the targets are more demanding.

GMs will be aware that higher bids are probably going to be needed - especially in the better spots. Those GMs will know they might have to raise fees/targets. They'll also know raising fees/targets means more traders might have to be kicked and less, new traders will be willing to join because of the new targets. If targets/fees rise high enough, big guilds might end up full of the higher end traders.

Btw, I often see you in the bank. I'll wave next time.

Sales requirements have never been higher (due to bidding prices being at an all-time high). At the same time, the selling prices of items have never been lower. Material prices have dropped 300% over the last 2 years thanks to rampant botting oversupplying the market. Then there is the annual motif event that has effectively made every motif in the game worthless.

The only way to meet requirements is soon going to be flipping, which is highly inaccessible to casual players. It's an activity that requires high starting capital (I'd recommend having at least 1 million gold to start) and deep knowledge of the market. Reaching weekly sales targets via farming will require an inordinate amount of time due to the extremely low prices on mats. It's only profitable for botters since they aren't putting actual man hours into the activity.

Or the guilds that have sky high/ridiculous dues will have people quit to find guilds that aren't a full time job to belong to. Unless there is some kind of video game ninja assassin squad that will show up at your RL house to kill if you quit a guild, everyone has the option of saying "No, the cost is too high", and walking away. There isn't any "you must sell eleventy billion gold a day or the game will ban you from playing forever" rule under the ToS and Code of Conduct the last time I looked. The people who actually play ESO TRADE WARS ONLINE will continue to be able to generate the sales needed, I guess. But no one can force you to do that.

Why do players feel the need to sell items and make eleventy billion gold a day, anyway? Even if you're buying crowns, there isn't exactly thousands of ways to spend it. Even if you buy every house that is possible to purchase for gold.....

Sure you can leave your top trade guild, if you enjoy waiting 14 days for your wares to sell.

And the problem with that, if you have no "required to pay super high dues or you're kicked" is what? You are in a guild with much lower or nonexistent dues. What are you doing that requires a constant super high amount of gold income if you aren't paying super high dues to a trading guild? I guess if you're buying gold jewelry for every character you have, but other than something like that, and houses, what activity in the game requires earning tens of thousands of gold every day/week?

Potions. Food.

8 pieces of gold food costs 24,000 gold
200 Spell Power potions cost 30,000 gold

That's 54,000 gold/week on food/potions alone (and it could go much higher than that if you play more than just casually)

Might be a really stupid question because I don't do the high requirement end game content, but would farming for the stuff you need to make those potions and food take less time and effort that farming stuff to sell to make the gold to buy those items?

Unsolicited personal opinion; if you are consistently doing content that absolutely requires using that many food and potions that cost that much, you are not playing casually. Right now two of the three characters I'm using the most have about a hundred weapon power potions, the other has about a hundred spell power potions. All of the full roster of my characters have at least a hundred blue food with the stat they need the most, and health. I do pick up surveys, but normally I pick up mats while I'm going from one place to another for quests, or exploring. I play casually. Doing content that requires gold food and that many potions in one sitting isn't anything I'd recognize as casual.

When I farmed regularly, it would take roughly 5 to 10 hours to gather between 50 to 100 of each alchemy reagent, depending on the spawns. I did not farm casually.

Most gold provisioning recipes require Perfect Roe, which requires fishing and drops at approximately a 1 in 100 drop rate. I never timed myself fishing, but it takes a while and RNG is fickle. You can get 3 Roe out of 30 or none out of 300. When Artaeum Takeaway Broth is used, that requires 5 powered mother of pearl, which requires grinding geysers, hunting for very rare clams who may not drop it, or rarely obtained in Tel Var alchemy satchels.

So for a player who regularly buys their potions, food, or the mats to make them, it's much faster to farm for high value stuff to sell in order to make the gold than to farm the materials themselves.

Thanks for the explanation. I don't understand that mindset, but at least it makes sense.

DMBCML

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And some still think this is a wonderful system.

This shows how "wonderful" it really is.

In reality, it is a good move on the part of EOS even if we don't like it. I forces guilds to move to other locations throughout Tamriel. It gives everyone a chance at more trader location.

I'm concerned we might loose our spots and have increased my donations to my guilds. However, if we do get forced out to another location, so what? People will travel to the other locations after the change because they will need to be able to find the items they search for from the guilds that reliably have them available.

As for guild members who complain? Simple. Put them out if they can't deal with in game life with the attitude that it is only a game and things will settle down after players get used to the new system and have enough money banked for the 10 bids because the 9 bids you don't get is refunded to the guild bank. No guild leader needs to put up with that kind of attitude from anyone.

FlopsyPrince

DMBCML wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And some still think this is a wonderful system.

This shows how "wonderful" it really is.

In reality, it is a good move on the part of EOS even if we don't like it. I forces guilds to move to other locations throughout Tamriel. It gives everyone a chance at more trader location.

I'm concerned we might loose our spots and have increased my donations to my guilds. However, if we do get forced out to another location, so what? People will travel to the other locations after the change because they will need to be able to find the items they search for from the guilds that reliably have them available.

As for guild members who complain? Simple. Put them out if they can't deal with in game life with the attitude that it is only a game and things will settle down after players get used to the new system and have enough money banked for the 10 bids because the 9 bids you don't get is refunded to the guild bank. No guild leader needs to put up with that kind of attitude from anyone.

Your perspective is too limited. This is a major burr in an enjoyable game. I am speaking of the guild vendor system as a whole, not just this change. The trading system is far more difficult here than it should be. Too many things need the system and suffer because of it.

Sure, addons on the PC can help some work around it, but ZOS chose to release a console (PS4 in my case) game and needs to factor that in. This system is horrible if you are playing on the PS4, except if you have one of the premium spots and a good grasp on solid pricing, something that takes a lot of time and effort to gain.

ezio45

VaranisArano wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

therift wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

The problem is the multi bid system is like the ghost guilds on steroids. Where the ghost guilds were matching the local competition of the area they were bidding in or bidding lower than that tier. The multi bidding system is making us match the prices in the tier above where were bidding, so we arnt sniped from guilds in that tier backups. Basically all tiers prices just got there minimum entry bid bumped up by 1 tier

I agree. This analysis is supported by game theory.

The ghost guilds cut people out of the market...by basically acting as an extra bid for a guild that could afford them...now everybody has extra bids.

In effect, the game now has less players because they can't snipe and disband...so there's no point.

Less players for same amount spots means...less demand for same supply?

Ghosts as it came to stalls and bidding werent acting according to supply and demand. They are just acting as a filter for lower tier guilds. The supply and demand aspect came in for the actual guilds bidding in that tier. The multi bid system though is increasing the demand. As it is both forcing guilds in the tier above the tier your bidding on into your tier and also essentially doubling the amount of bids placed across the entire market.

As for snipes, you have this backwards. Ghosts werent sniping stalls. They were operating based on based on no guild in that tier bidding on that stall. So Guild (A) and guild (B) both bidding on stall (A) leaving stall (B) without a buyer. This is were a lower tier guild might have go lucky and up bid for a week. Ghost were filtering out those opportunities. All guilds in that tier though have already adjusted tier prices to not get snipped by ghosts. Snipes now directly come into play because if a higher tier loses they can use the money for that higher tier to bid out of a lower tiers price range or suggested price range.

Not quite.

With multibidding, you can't lose, then use the money and snipe. If you lose the bid, the money is refunded. But you can't add it to your other existing 9 bids. You have to have the gold upfront in order to make all your bids, no double-dipping.

But the effect of sniping (a higher tier guild out bids a lower tier guild) will still be present.

Say we've got lower tier Guild A, who makes a main bid of 1 million.

Then we've got higher tier Guild B, who makes a main bid of 3 million, and a secondary bid of 1.5 million on the spot of Guild A.

If Guild B loses their main bid, they will get their 3 million refunded in the bank AND win their secondary bid of 1.5 million against Guild A. Guild A has their 1 million refunded and is then pushed into one of their secondary bid spots, if they bid high enough. Neither guild can use that main bid money on a new bid until the next week, though they could buy an empty trader (if they can find one).


So you can't do snipes in exactly the way you described. You have to pay for all your bids upfront and can't double-dip on gold or use your refunded gold to add to a bid.

However, your guild can easily be pushed out by any secondary bid from another guild that's higher than your main bid IF that other guild loses their other main/backup bids.

As a result, lower tier guilds will face more guilds targeting them as their backup bids. It might not have a big impact if there is no market shakeup and everyone stays more or less on their same tier, OR it might be very hard on smaller guilds if a market shakeup forces guilds into their backup tier.

I probably worded that poorly, Meant that Higher tier guilds will have more money to invest in the whole of their bids now than smaller tier guilds. Which as you said will push lower tier guilds out of their spot, regardless of local competition in the same area.

Arrodisia

VaranisArano wrote: »

The reason any guild would increase fees and/or requirements in that they need more ready cash.

Why do they need more ready cash?

1. To use the new multi-bid feature.
2. To defend their spot against other guilds using the new multi-bid feature.

First, guilds can bid up to 10 times...but they must have the gold to make those bids. So a guild who was bidding 3 million on their regular spot now must raise even more gold to bid on backup spots.

Second, other guilds can now use their spot as a backup bid. So take a guild who normally bids 500k for a lower tier city spot. Now, they face competition from more wealthy guilds who might be able to easily beat their regular bid with their backup. So in the event of the wealthier guilds getting shaken out of their regular spot, the lower-paying guilds risk losing to a wealthier guild's backup bid. So that guild might decide to increase their 500k bid in order to ward off wealthier guilds' backup bids in the event of a market shakeup.

This is a very logical set of statements. I can agree. It's the mostly likely scenario, and a sad one to see coming into the Elder Scrolls Online game. I really wish. ZOS would reconsider postponing the 10x bidding change. They might find a better solution to the lack of vendor kiosks in the game.

Have fun in the game, and cheers.

anitajoneb17_ESO

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

They might find a better solution to the lack of vendor kiosks in the game.

It's not meant to be a solution to a so-called lack of vendor kiosks in the game. It's meant to be a solution to ghost guilds, tiered frozen market and, which result in underused vendor kiosks. That's the real problem.