Trading System is absolutely vile

LuxLunae

jdamuso wrote: »

The trader re-selling and trade guild price gouging is disgusting. anything and everything worth buying is constantly being bought up by players with billions of gold and being re-sold at unreasonable prices. [snip]

Howabout account binding items sold through traders huh?

Even to obtain a trader you have to compete with this garbage, which is just encouraging the practice...

And before you come back with some snub retort to the point.... empirical evidence: the cheapest purple inferno staff of a mother's sorrow on the market is 55k yet there are well over 260 of this item available on the market right now. Suggesting there is not the demand for the supply. If it was rare enough to be so valuable then okay. but they are clearly its not that rare if there are 260 of it not being sold...


Now the problem is... EVERYTHING is being bought and re-sold..... EVERYTHING that will sell AT ALL. and being marked up 500-3000% regardless of the demand....

Trade system is broken... the add-ons allowed to interfere make it worse... The economy in this game is one of the worst ive seen EVER in 30 years of gaming... Its an abomination.

The only saving grace of this game... is that i dont mind farming stuff myself, and thank the lord for that, because the economy is a complete embarrassment.

I think we can be friends :-D... it's not the worst i've seen though...this game ... is like 1/25th the hardship of other games i've played...

Want to know why the prices are like that? I wrote this some time ago...many disagree with it...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/474938/the-makings-of-an-ah-exists-the-rawlkha-heroes-know-and-zos-does-too-ah-bad/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484032/i-accept-the-patch-changes-because

[edited to remove quote]

Kagukan

Not sure I agree with all your points but I do agree with you on 1 thing. The auction system in the game is horrible. A basic core part of a MMO that does not allow for everyone to fully participate.

Jayman1000

Kagukan wrote: »

Not sure I agree with all your points but I do agree with you on 1 thing. The auction system in the game is horrible. A basic core part of a MMO that does not allow for everyone to fully participate.

Not true. Everyone can participate fully. Just join a trading guild and voila! you are fully participating. "But I can't pay the dues!" then join trading guild with no or very small dues. Yes there are plenty. Yes you can find them in the guild finder.

Skwor

Toanis wrote: »

In other MMOs, global "auction" houses work, because the moneybags can't control the whole market all the time. There will always be those who underbid and those who buy at a reasonable price, before the professional resellers can fetch it.

ESO separates the market into many small easily controllable chunks, separated by tediously long loading times that discourage the casual buyer from looking for a bargain themselves.

The guild trader system also discourages the casual seller from selling at a fair price. If you don't want to deal with the hassle of meeting the expectations of a large trade guild, you have to sell cheaply on a remote trader where the only buyers come from the large trade guild, and ignore your listings unless they have a high profit when reselling.

Is it realistic for that supposed time period? Of course it is. But if we want to be that realistic, those roleplaying merchants should also have to deal with those of us deciding to roleplay pirates and highwaymen.

Try to think this through. The very thing that you say prevents casuals from buying prevents resellers from monopolizing the market. This actually gives casuals a chance at getting one of those reasonably priced items.

It works completly opposite from what you posted. Also decentralized markets always favors the little guy not the big corporate guys. That is actually a real life economics priciple.

LuxLunae

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kagukan wrote: »

Not sure I agree with all your points but I do agree with you on 1 thing. The auction system in the game is horrible. A basic core part of a MMO that does not allow for everyone to fully participate.

Not true. Everyone can participate fully. Just join a trading guild and voila! you are fully participating. "But I can't pay the dues!" then join trading guild with no or very small dues. Yes there are plenty. Yes you can find them in the guild finder.

Auction Houses kill the game (not the guild traders)...the inflation rates are caused by

TTC = seeing everybodies prices
MM = selling items at the price deemed to be normal...

The first link tells a story about a guy who started the game and then joined a guild.

He was told to download MM and TTC. The guild memeber told him "sell your stuf 5% higher than what you see in MM."

Some time later when he hit CP 160 and asked how to get money for the gears some one pmed him and said.

"Just before a major patch use the current money you have and buy all the tempering alloy you can. When the patch comes out raise the prices of it high. Keep all the lower priced tempering alloys off the market and resell them higher. One month after the patch sell your items 5% lower. This way, others re sellers will buy it while you getting out of the game clean."

The guy in the story does just that and MM and TTC start to reflect the higher prices in everybodies guild stats...

Now the guy want's to go to pvp because the people in pve have weak gears. He then finds out his pve build doesn't work in pvp and has to buy new gears. When he goes to buy it he sees crazy high prices for the gear and tempers...He realizes he was the one who helped cause it by buying and reselling items higher....

MM looks at that and recommends to everybody a higher price... TTC helps people look for the ones still selling it low so they can swoop it up and buy it.. then sell it high later...

At the end of the day...these systems circumvented what the original creators wanted to stop...

The second post I put talk about how the elites ruin the game and will be the only people playing at the end....and how no new players will be added to the system...a shell game as I call it... only alive to prey on the elites who think they are hot stuff in a dead game...

Skwor

LuxLunae wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kagukan wrote: »

Not sure I agree with all your points but I do agree with you on 1 thing. The auction system in the game is horrible. A basic core part of a MMO that does not allow for everyone to fully participate.

Not true. Everyone can participate fully. Just join a trading guild and voila! you are fully participating. "But I can't pay the dues!" then join trading guild with no or very small dues. Yes there are plenty. Yes you can find them in the guild finder.

Auction Houses kill the game (not the guild traders)...the inflation rates are caused by

TTC = seeing everybodies prices
MM = selling items at the price deemed to be normal...

The first link tells a story about a guy who started the game and then joined a guild.

He was told to download MM and TTC. The guild memeber told him "sell your stuf 5% higher than what you see in MM."

Some time later when he hit CP 160 and asked how to get money for the gears some one pmed him and said.

"Just before a major patch use the current money you have and buy all the tempering alloy you can. When the patch comes out raise the prices of it high. Keep all the lower priced tempering alloys off the market and resell them higher. One month after the patch sell your items 5% lower. This way, others re sellers will buy it while you getting out of the game clean."

The guy in the story does just that and MM and TTC start to reflect the higher prices in everybodies guild stats...

Now the guy want's to go to pvp because the people in pve have weak gears. He then finds out his pve build doesn't work in pvp and has to buy new gears. When he goes to buy it he sees crazy high prices for the gear and tempers...He realizes he was the one who helped cause it by buying and reselling items higher....

MM looks at that and recommends to everybody a higher price... TTC helps people look for the ones still selling it low so they can swoop it up and buy it.. then sell it high later...

At the end of the day...these systems circumvented what the original creators wanted to stop...

The second post I put talk about how the elites ruin the game and will be the only people playing at the end....and how no new players will be added to the system...a shell game as I call it... only alive to prey on the elites who think they are hot stuff in a dead game...

Reports of ESO's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

Wolfpaw

Kadoin wrote: »

Don't like the system, don't participate in it. Unlike real-life, there is little consequence to not participating in the server's markets.

This is what I do.
ESO trader system has always been garbage, I rarely ever buy, /z or /g for my purchases.

Want to change the system? Don't participate.

Jayman1000

LuxLunae wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kagukan wrote: »

Not sure I agree with all your points but I do agree with you on 1 thing. The auction system in the game is horrible. A basic core part of a MMO that does not allow for everyone to fully participate.

Not true. Everyone can participate fully. Just join a trading guild and voila! you are fully participating. "But I can't pay the dues!" then join trading guild with no or very small dues. Yes there are plenty. Yes you can find them in the guild finder.

Auction Houses kill the game (not the guild traders)...the inflation rates are caused by

TTC = seeing everybodies prices
MM = selling items at the price deemed to be normal...

The first link tells a story about a guy who started the game and then joined a guild.

He was told to download MM and TTC. The guild memeber told him "sell your stuf 5% higher than what you see in MM."

Some time later when he hit CP 160 and asked how to get money for the gears some one pmed him and said.

"Just before a major patch use the current money you have and buy all the tempering alloy you can. When the patch comes out raise the prices of it high. Keep all the lower priced tempering alloys off the market and resell them higher. One month after the patch sell your items 5% lower. This way, others re sellers will buy it while you getting out of the game clean."

The guy in the story does just that and MM and TTC start to reflect the higher prices in everybodies guild stats...

Now the guy want's to go to pvp because the people in pve have weak gears. He then finds out his pve build doesn't work in pvp and has to buy new gears. When he goes to buy it he sees crazy high prices for the gear and tempers...He realizes he was the one who helped cause it by buying and reselling items higher....

MM looks at that and recommends to everybody a higher price... TTC helps people look for the ones still selling it low so they can swoop it up and buy it.. then sell it high later...

At the end of the day...these systems circumvented what the original creators wanted to stop...

The second post I put talk about how the elites ruin the game and will be the only people playing at the end....and how no new players will be added to the system...a shell game as I call it... only alive to prey on the elites who think they are hot stuff in a dead game...

TTC only lets you see listing prices, not sell prices. It is unreliable as a pricing tool, though it's better than nothing and can give you a bit of data that you can perhaps use to make a better educated guess.

Only fools would sell/buy items at the average "normal" price of MM just because of that. Ignorance = always selling/buying at prices deemed to be normal by MM. MM is a great pricing tool though, you can usually rely on most data, especially voluminous ones, to get your good sold fast if you price it a bit under the average. Or if you dont mind having your listings up for multiple days price it higher than average. But MM being a great pricing tool is no excuse for turning off your brain.

But whatever the case none of this changes the fact of my comment that you replied to: Everyone can participate fully. Just join a trading guild and voila! you are fully participating.

Loves_guars

Agreed.
Casual players can't participate in the trading system cause they get kicked for being offline from the guilds. I know my friends gave up guild traders. Which makes them a lot more poor. You can't even do dailies to earn some money. Only way is selling in guilds.
And lets not even mention how annoying is when you need to find an item.

LuxLunae

Jayman1000 wrote: »

LuxLunae wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kagukan wrote: »

Not sure I agree with all your points but I do agree with you on 1 thing. The auction system in the game is horrible. A basic core part of a MMO that does not allow for everyone to fully participate.

Not true. Everyone can participate fully. Just join a trading guild and voila! you are fully participating. "But I can't pay the dues!" then join trading guild with no or very small dues. Yes there are plenty. Yes you can find them in the guild finder.

Auction Houses kill the game (not the guild traders)...the inflation rates are caused by

TTC = seeing everybodies prices
MM = selling items at the price deemed to be normal...

The first link tells a story about a guy who started the game and then joined a guild.

He was told to download MM and TTC. The guild memeber told him "sell your stuf 5% higher than what you see in MM."

Some time later when he hit CP 160 and asked how to get money for the gears some one pmed him and said.

"Just before a major patch use the current money you have and buy all the tempering alloy you can. When the patch comes out raise the prices of it high. Keep all the lower priced tempering alloys off the market and resell them higher. One month after the patch sell your items 5% lower. This way, others re sellers will buy it while you getting out of the game clean."

The guy in the story does just that and MM and TTC start to reflect the higher prices in everybodies guild stats...

Now the guy want's to go to pvp because the people in pve have weak gears. He then finds out his pve build doesn't work in pvp and has to buy new gears. When he goes to buy it he sees crazy high prices for the gear and tempers...He realizes he was the one who helped cause it by buying and reselling items higher....

MM looks at that and recommends to everybody a higher price... TTC helps people look for the ones still selling it low so they can swoop it up and buy it.. then sell it high later...

At the end of the day...these systems circumvented what the original creators wanted to stop...

The second post I put talk about how the elites ruin the game and will be the only people playing at the end....and how no new players will be added to the system...a shell game as I call it... only alive to prey on the elites who think they are hot stuff in a dead game...

TTC only lets you see listing prices, not sell prices. It is unreliable as a pricing tool, though it's better than nothing and can give you a bit of data that you can perhaps use to make a better educated guess.

Only fools would sell/buy items at the average "normal" price of MM just because of that. Ignorance = always selling/buying at prices deemed to be normal by MM. MM is a great pricing tool though, you can usually rely on most data, especially voluminous ones, to get your good sold fast if you price it a bit under the average. Or if you dont mind having your listings up for multiple days price it higher than average. But MM being a great pricing tool is no excuse for turning off your brain.

But whatever the case none of this changes the fact of my comment that you replied to: Everyone can participate fully. Just join a trading guild and voila! you are fully participating.

I was saying that people go onto TTC to find listing prices that are lower than the ones shown on MM selling prices. They go buy that cheap stuff and then resell it using MM prices... Not only that MM prices can be fooled just because hundreds of sales were made by the elite few, doesn't mean it's the price it should be...Yet every time it never fails... the "price fixing" is actually caused by MM showing the average of those elite sales... Every body trying to chase those elitists money...

I'll give it a conservative 3 years where the game economy is at the point of no return. No new players who will continue to play on after some months...mostly elite players playing....1 elite will be born (some random average player who for some reason hasn't quit yet) just to replace an elite who quit...

As of now the game is still alive and I am seeing newer players getting to cp 160...

Agenericname

Loves_guars wrote: »

Agreed.
Casual players can't participate in the trading system cause they get kicked for being offline from the guilds. I know my friends gave up guild traders. Which makes them a lot more poor. You can't even do dailies to earn some money. Only way is selling in guilds.
And lets not even mention how annoying is when you need to find an item.

Trade guilds are not the only way to make money.

Yes, it's annoying trying to find an item.

Skwor

Loves_guars wrote: »

Agreed.
Casual players can't participate in the trading system cause they get kicked for being offline from the guilds. I know my friends gave up guild traders. Which makes them a lot more poor. You can't even do dailies to earn some money. Only way is selling in guilds.
And lets not even mention how annoying is when you need to find an item.

Completely false. There are lots free trade guilds and the only way to get kicked is to be a jerk or not play for months going idle on your account.

Also I earn over 28k everyday in 15 minutes doing dailies so there is another lie you told.

You can stop making things up. Of course if you join a high end trade guild you get kicked for not making the quota. Just like you get kicked from a trials guild for not enough dps or not participating in enough trials.

Why is this even an issue? It is frikin common sense and general respect for your guildies.

Loves_guars

@agenericname
Yes you can grind gold from mobs which has been nerfed or steal with a cap per day. I took the trouble to measure how much gold you make per minute and these 2 ways were too low compared to selling in stores. Dont have the numbers here, will update when I get home. But I would love to be wrong.

kargen27

barney2525 wrote: »

Jurand80 wrote: »

You don't need billions to play a trader. I used to do just what the OP explained untill i reached 1m+ don't rly need much gold after. Today it's a different story coz you can buy crowns.

But if you have a problem with a 55k staff then wow. How big is your bank? 10k? I think i bought my MS staff for 200k. Do you even own a maxed out mount? Make some money and stop with the QQ. There are a lot of guides on that. No amount of QQ is going to change the eso trading system so adapt or uninstall.

Ah... that standard response from all who are panicked that their own little bubble might be burst if Zos used some common sense and added an Global Auction House.

The fact that adding a GAH to the game would put the current system right out of business shows which system is better And which system the Majority of the players want to use.

And so the millionaires rail against it.

The complaint is monopolies and your answer is to take over 200 unique trading locations away and leave only one? Three people could control any rare or semi rare item they wanted if there was a global market. With the system we have now it can't be done.
The majority of players never come to these forums. There is no possible way for you to know what the majority of players want.

Skwor

kargen27 wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Jurand80 wrote: »

You don't need billions to play a trader. I used to do just what the OP explained untill i reached 1m+ don't rly need much gold after. Today it's a different story coz you can buy crowns.

But if you have a problem with a 55k staff then wow. How big is your bank? 10k? I think i bought my MS staff for 200k. Do you even own a maxed out mount? Make some money and stop with the QQ. There are a lot of guides on that. No amount of QQ is going to change the eso trading system so adapt or uninstall.

Ah... that standard response from all who are panicked that their own little bubble might be burst if Zos used some common sense and added an Global Auction House.

The fact that adding a GAH to the game would put the current system right out of business shows which system is better And which system the Majority of the players want to use.

And so the millionaires rail against it.

The complaint is monopolies and your answer is to take over 200 unique trading locations away and leave only one? Three people could control any rare or semi rare item they wanted if there was a global market. With the system we have now it can't be done.
The majority of players never come to these forums. There is no possible way for you to know what the majority of players want.

Not to mention the gah loses in almost every poll for it so it is not even a majority here.

seratin

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kagukan wrote: »

Not sure I agree with all your points but I do agree with you on 1 thing. The auction system in the game is horrible. A basic core part of a MMO that does not allow for everyone to fully participate.

Not true. Everyone can participate fully. Just join a trading guild and voila! you are fully participating. "But I can't pay the dues!" then join trading guild with no or very small dues. Yes there are plenty. Yes you can find them in the guild finder.

I'm pretty sure there aren't enough guild stores that everyone can join one. Mathematically speaking, there is a definite limit to the number of people who can use this system and I'm fairly certain that limit is lower than the total number of people playing the game.

MartiniDaniels

You need to monitor sweet deals, this requires time and reaction. If you just wanna open ttc and travel to cheapest item in some backwater, list with "last seen 2 days ago", um, good luck. Though sometimes nobody in backwater trader will update online lists, and you may find best deals there hanging for a week already.
So if you travel between traders checking for popular items, and buying good things, it's your right to re-sell it for average price or keep in bag for future use (in case of mats). This is what about medieval trading was about, I do it sometimes and absolutely love the experience. Why you need to ruin one of the game sides because you just want everything without effort... idk. Especially given how easy gold comes in this game, it's more of self-entertainment to earn it, it doesn't give you any combat advantage and so on.

Skwor

seratin wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kagukan wrote: »

Not sure I agree with all your points but I do agree with you on 1 thing. The auction system in the game is horrible. A basic core part of a MMO that does not allow for everyone to fully participate.

Not true. Everyone can participate fully. Just join a trading guild and voila! you are fully participating. "But I can't pay the dues!" then join trading guild with no or very small dues. Yes there are plenty. Yes you can find them in the guild finder.

I'm pretty sure there aren't enough guild stores that everyone can join one. Mathematically speaking, there is a definite limit to the number of people who can use this system and I'm fairly certain that limit is lower than the total number of people playing the game.

Besides basically saying you have no clue but believe you anyway.

Here are some rough facts.

As I recall there is at least 195 traders. 500 per guild is 97500 players. Pretty sure not all 97500 positions are taken. Nice try though.

majulook

IMHO one of the biggest issues with a Global Auction House (GAH) is that I do not believe that ZOS would be able to get it to work.

Look at the delay of looking up a item in a single guild (500 players in guild all having 30 listing each )is 15000 listings. these look-ups only returns 100 listings at a time. Imagine the delay when the listings are 200 times that.

ZOS decided on using the Megaserver design for the game and not the Multi-World server design that lots of other MMO's use. This Megaserver concept appears to be one of the reasons for the lag that areas have when a large number of players get in one zone.

That same lag (delay) can affect other aspects of the game like the LFG tool as it appears to work better (admittedly not much better) off peak player times.

IMHO a GAH would most likely cause additional stress on the Megaserver and be responsible for even more lag.

That being said ZOS really seems to need more Kiosks. If all those that cannot find a guild that does not have player fees other than the built in fees. I personally am in 3 trade guilds that have a trader kiosk, none of which have fees other than those built into the game, and I make about 50K per week from these 3 guilds. Those guilds are not any were near full so those players who say they cannot find a "Trade Guild with no fees" need to start asking in chat for a invite to one.

And just a side note... The best way to make gold that I have found is to have 1 character that does all your Crafting, and learns all motifs, recipes and such. All other characters feed this one character all items for consumption with any duplicates getting sold. The only exception to this is to have all other characters do enough research and recipe learning to do daily crafting writs.

Agenericname

Loves_guars wrote: »

@agenericname
Yes you can grind gold from mobs which has been nerfed or steal with a cap per day. I took the trouble to measure how much gold you make per minute and these 2 ways were too low compared to selling in stores. Dont have the numbers here, will update when I get home. But I would love to be wrong.

I'm sure other methods won't measure up to guild traders, but guild traders aren't the only way to make gold. If that's a part of the game that really interests you and you want to maximize your profits, guild traders are it. If that's not a part of the game you enjoy, you can get by just fine without one. You can still be a millionaire without a trade guild.

Sylosi

majulook wrote: »

ZOS decided on using the Megaserver design for the game and not the Multi-World server design that lots of other MMO's use. This Megaserver concept appears to be one of the reasons for the lag that areas have when a large number of players get in one zone.

Megaservers make no difference. There isn't any more load on a "megaserver" than a named server they are both just constructs that are typically made up of a cluster of physical servers / cloud "servers", where players from multiple actual servers are combined into a shared instance. When a "megaserver" hits (or gets near) the limit set for the number of players in an instance they just spawn a new instance of that zone that distributes the load across / spins up additional actual servers. (Cyrodil excepted)

Donny_Vito

That's why you become self-sufficient so you're not bothered with these pleb-problems!

seratin

Skwor wrote: »

Not true. Everyone can participate fully. Just join a trading guild and voila! you are fully participating. "But I can't pay the dues!" then join trading guild with no or very small dues. Yes there are plenty. Yes you can find them in the guild finder.


Besides basically saying you have no clue but believe you anyway.

Here are some rough facts.

As I recall there is at least 195 traders. 500 per guild is 97500 players. Pretty sure not all 97500 positions are taken. Nice try though.

Well I stand corrected, unless of course there's more than 97,500 people playing the game. If that were the case than my point would still be correct and it would be physically impossible for everyone to have access to a guild trader. I'm sure ESO is an extremely niche title though; really how many people could possibly be playing it?

Lisutaris

jdamuso wrote: »

Now the problem is... EVERYTHING is being bought and re-sold..... EVERYTHING that will sell AT ALL. and being marked up 500-3000% regardless of the demand....
.

Your example was a "mother sorrow" staff.
This drop is an overland item and can be farmed SOLO. I get it, reselling is annoying.
On the other hand, it makes it really easy for new players (fresh cp160) to obtain a fair amount of gold income.
For example : Farming corn flowers and other ressources while killing world bosses, delve bosses (you can team up, double the loot only benefits).

I could tell stories about spriggan set farming and my income during that time, or why my aetheric cipher I found recently was not worth **** but still +1mio (thxies resellers) .
Long story short, it sucks yeah, but unlike the real world, you can get the stuff yourself and make profit.

Jeremy

jdamuso wrote: »

The trader re-selling and trade guild price gouging is disgusting. anything and everything worth buying is constantly being bought up by players with billions of gold and being re-sold at unreasonable prices. [snip]

Howabout account binding items sold through traders huh?

Even to obtain a trader you have to compete with this garbage, which is just encouraging the practice...

And before you come back with some snub retort to the point.... empirical evidence: the cheapest purple inferno staff of a mother's sorrow on the market is 55k yet there are well over 260 of this item available on the market right now. Suggesting there is not the demand for the supply. If it was rare enough to be so valuable then okay. but they are clearly its not that rare if there are 260 of it not being sold...


Now the problem is... EVERYTHING is being bought and re-sold..... EVERYTHING that will sell AT ALL. and being marked up 500-3000% regardless of the demand....

Trade system is broken... the add-ons allowed to interfere make it worse... The economy in this game is one of the worst ive seen EVER in 30 years of gaming... Its an abomination.

The only saving grace of this game... is that i dont mind farming stuff myself, and thank the lord for that, because the economy is a complete embarrassment.

This isn't possible because the guild trader system is different from your average auction house system and prevents market manipulation.

[edited to remove quote]

Saucy_Jack

I honestly don't know what logical basis the complaint about flipping items stands on.

Let's take it to a real world scenario. You're in a pawn shop. You see a valuable ring that, for whatever reason, the owner has listed for $5. Do you go around to all the other pawn shops and tell the owners to lower the prices of their valuable rings to $5? No, because that's stupid. Do you complain to the city council that the other pawn shops are driving up the prices of valuable rings? No, because that's also stupid. Do you sell off all your OWN valuable rings for $5? No, because that is *incredibly* stupid.

Instead, because you're NOT stupid, you grab the $5 valuable ring because it's a fantastic deal. You then wear it yourself if you personally like it, or sell for a boatload because historically, valuable rings sell for a lot more than $5.

If you don't have the time or the desire to check all the pawn shops in town for great deals - even with readily available online tools indicating pawn shop inventory and pricing - then I guess you don't get the good deals. That's not the pawn shop's fault; that's not the economic system that allows for pawn shops' fault; that's on you for having priorities that differ from actively searching out good deals.

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard to grasp.

Donny_Vito

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

I honestly don't know what logical basis the complaint about flipping items stands on.

Let's take it to a real world scenario. You're in a pawn shop. You see a valuable ring that, for whatever reason, the owner has listed for $5. Do you go around to all the other pawn shops and tell the owners to lower the prices of their valuable rings to $5? No, because that's stupid. Do you complain to the city council that the other pawn shops are driving up the prices of valuable rings? No, because that's also stupid. Do you sell off all your OWN valuable rings for $5? No, because that is *incredibly* stupid.

Instead, because you're NOT stupid, you grab the $5 valuable ring because it's a fantastic deal. You then wear it yourself if you personally like it, or sell for a boatload because historically, valuable rings sell for a lot more than $5.

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard to grasp.

While your example is spot on, I believe the problem (at least maybe what a portion of this thread is about) is the lack of oversight / restrictions put in place to prevent "dummy" guilds from buying up a lot of spots.

So, to follow suit, another real world example....

McDonalds buys up a prime spot in town to open a business. In order to ensure no competition is in the area, they set up "dummy" corporations to buy up all the available businesses and open up empty shops with no goods to sell in their place.

Obviously, McDonalds would never do such a thing because they'd be knee-deep in a lawsuit as soon as they did. There is oversight when it comes to actions such as these.

To bring this back around full-circle, the reason I believe people are upset about the ESO trading guilds situation (the "dummy" guilds) is that there is no oversight. A person can be a GM of multiple guilds and bid on multiple spots. Now, I have no idea how they could provide oversight to prevent this situation from happening, but I think this is a big issue for people. So trying to utilize real life scenarios in order to show how it'd play out logically in the real world is not always relevant.

Darketernis

Muahahahaha!

Saucy_Jack

Donny_Vito wrote: »

While your example is spot on, I believe the problem (at least maybe what a portion of this thread is about) is the lack of oversight / restrictions put in place to prevent "dummy" guilds from buying up a lot of spots.

So, to follow suit, another real world example....

McDonalds buys up a prime spot in town to open a business. In order to ensure no competition is in the area, they set up "dummy" corporations to buy up all the available businesses and open up empty shops with no goods to sell in their place.

Obviously, McDonalds would never do such a thing because they'd be knee-deep in a lawsuit as soon as they did. There is oversight when it comes to actions such as these.

To bring this back around full-circle, the reason I believe people are upset about the ESO trading guilds situation (the "dummy" guilds) is that there is no oversight. A person can be a GM of multiple guilds and bid on multiple spots. Now, I have no idea how they could provide oversight to prevent this situation from happening, but I think this is a big issue for people. So trying to utilize real life scenarios in order to show how it'd play out logically in the real world is not always relevant.

That's fair, but then again, ETHICAL trading guilds - of which there are many - don't resort to that kind of petty behaviour. If a guild resorts to dummy guilds to get a spot, then it's not a good guild. It's like flopping in soccer. Everyone knows it's fake; everyone knows it's an underhanded way to get an advantage. If a team RELIES on it to win a match, then it wasn't very good at soccer, because if a team is actually good at soccer then it can win without resorting to flopping.

Not to mention you had that flapjack a while back who bought out all the Rawl trading guilds (who were actually legit guilds, selling legit items for legit prices) just to list a bunch of crap for prices no one would pay, just to make the misguided point that...??? I still dont' know what their point was other than to blow a whole load of gold for nothing.

My point is that legitimate, ethical trading guilds provide a very real, very helpful service. If sleazy guilds or people with a vendetta want to abuse the trading guild system because for whatever reason their life choices have led them to become full-on pricks, well that's not the fault of the system; that's the fault of people choosing to be pricks.

Saucy_Jack

jdamuso wrote: »

[snip]

The irony is delightful.

[edited to remove quote]