Buying completed skill trees makes the under-level-50 PvP campaign pay-to-win

yodased

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Dawnbreaker at level 10 in its current form is an exploit. Feel free to get yourself banned.

lol so because you don't understand the system of fighters guild and how summoned creatures work I am going to get banned.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler please come and ban me.

Fur_like_snow

What makes it an exploit exactly?

yodased

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

What makes it an exploit exactly?

Any time something is done that people don't understand it's an exploit. I was guilty of this mindset for too long

Grandma

if a pro was going to make an alt and faceroll below 50, it was already going to be bad, this literally changes nothing.

code65536

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Dawnbreaker at level 10 in its current form is an exploit. Feel free to get yourself banned.

You just have to kill something daedric/undead that doesn't grant XP. For example, the skeletal minions of a bone colossus don't grant XP when killed, and if you're patient, they respawn infinitely. Killing a player's daedric/undead pets doesn't grant XP. But unless there's a way to do this en masse, leveling FG this way is a slow tedious slog. Maybe there is a place where non-XP enemies spawn in quantity, but I can't think of any right now.

yodased wrote: »

Any time something is done that people don't understand it's an exploit. I was guilty of this mindset for too long

So why don't you share with the class how you do it?

The point still remains: just because twinking is already possible doesn't mean that it's a good idea to make it even easier to do. You can't prevent it, but at least you can discourage it. If someone really wants to twink out a character to roflstomp people in sub-50, then they'll have to spend the hours of to do it rather than get it all with the click of a few buttons.

yodased

code65536 wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Dawnbreaker at level 10 in its current form is an exploit. Feel free to get yourself banned.

You just have to kill something daedric/undead that doesn't grant XP. For example, the skeletal minions of a bone colossus don't grant XP when killed, and if you're patient, they respawn infinitely. Killing a player's daedric/undead pets doesn't grant XP. But unless there's a way to do this en masse, leveling FG this way is a slow tedious slog. Maybe there is a place where non-XP enemies spawn in quantity, but I can't think of any right now.

yodased wrote: »

Any time something is done that people don't understand it's an exploit. I was guilty of this mindset for too long

So why don't you share with the class how you do it?

The point still remains: just because twinking is already possible doesn't mean that it's a good idea to make it even easier to do. You can't prevent it, but at least you can discourage it. If someone really wants to twink out a character to roflstomp people in sub-50, then they'll have to spend the hours of to do it rather than get it all with the click of a few buttons.

There are several spots where there are zombies that spawn in 25-30 at a clip that give 0 XP and fighters guild.

Its 20 seconds or so to get 25 fg with a 10 second reset.

It takes 5.5 hours of grinding those mobs to get fg10

You can do this at level 3.

ALSO, if they are twinking by buying them, they already had to spend hours before clicking those few buttons.

Wayshuba

I have a different concern since the introduction of purchasing sky shard completion and now skill lines. The thing that worries me about these conveniences is what it will mean for the future.

The ability to buy oneself around the grind is a typical F2P mobile tactic. It is really not that big of a deal now, but I am concerned that these things will become grindier and grindier in the future to make players more inclined to purchase these things in the store then subject themselves to a tedious and boring grind.

We will see where it goes, but I am very concerned this will be the future of ESO.

lucky_Sage

Wayshuba wrote: »

I have a different concern since the introduction of purchasing sky shard completion and now skill lines. The thing that worries me about these conveniences is what it will mean for the future.

The ability to buy oneself around the grind is a typical F2P mobile tactic. It is really not that big of a deal now, but I am concerned that these things will become grindier and grindier in the future to make players more inclined to purchase these things in the store then subject themselves to a tedious and boring grind.

We will see where it goes, but I am very concerned this will be the future of ESO.

They already have made things grindier look at psijic skill line and Jewelry crafting

ProzTh3Almighty

Wouldnt all the current ways to twink involve you grinding out those “special” spots or work arounds to get a certain skill line? So that you can go in and pretend your good against new players. OTOH wouldn't the new system allow you to exchange currency (a “money” generally accepted as the monetary standard form of payment inside a particular country) for a skill line without having to go thru the process normally associated with earning said skill line. And then use said skills to compete vs players who are for the vast majority new to the game an unable to achieve the same? Sounds to me like your paying to have an unfair advantage over people in a competitive atmosphere. Therefore you are _______ing to _______? Now yes these new players could also go to the “special” spots and grind the twink way but who the heck wants to do that accept twinks? But if your adamant about this being available below level 50 would you care to explain why you need said “pay to convenience” skills before level 50? All in all it will lead to a healthier gameplay environment and not alienate new players to just limit the purchasable skills lines to after you've reached Cp ranks. We all want new players to stick around an not become disenchanted with the game by feeling like they are disadvantaged at such a early and pivotal developmental stage in their young ESO lives! We wouldn't want them to feel disenfranchised an go play LoL instead of ESO now would we?

ProzTh3Almighty

Btw if your against the level 50 requirement we know what you are an we are ashamed... tisk tisk come play with the big boys! We dont bite.....cept those dirty doggies. Uggh i cant get the smell off me.

MajBludd

You can have Dawnbreaker, as said before, at lvl 3 if you want.

Jierdanit

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

redlink1979 wrote: »

Here we go again...

Not pay to win, pay for convenience: if you are able to buy the lines is because you unlock them with another char...

this time it really is pay to win, I havent done the maths but its going to be near impossible to level up fighters without getting close to 50. So regarding purely sub 50 twinking, yes, it is far more pay to win.

Not that twinking isnt already dumb as ***.

you dont have to do any math... its possible to get FG 10 on lvl 1 if u know how.

without having to buy that skillline for crowns ^^

Jierdanit

yodased wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Dawnbreaker at level 10 in its current form is an exploit. Feel free to get yourself banned.

You just have to kill something daedric/undead that doesn't grant XP. For example, the skeletal minions of a bone colossus don't grant XP when killed, and if you're patient, they respawn infinitely. Killing a player's daedric/undead pets doesn't grant XP. But unless there's a way to do this en masse, leveling FG this way is a slow tedious slog. Maybe there is a place where non-XP enemies spawn in quantity, but I can't think of any right now.

yodased wrote: »

Any time something is done that people don't understand it's an exploit. I was guilty of this mindset for too long

So why don't you share with the class how you do it?

The point still remains: just because twinking is already possible doesn't mean that it's a good idea to make it even easier to do. You can't prevent it, but at least you can discourage it. If someone really wants to twink out a character to roflstomp people in sub-50, then they'll have to spend the hours of to do it rather than get it all with the click of a few buttons.

There are several spots where there are zombies that spawn in 25-30 at a clip that give 0 XP and fighters guild.

Its 20 seconds or so to get 25 fg with a 10 second reset.

It takes 5.5 hours of grinding those mobs to get fg10

You can do this at level 3.

ALSO, if they are twinking by buying them, they already had to spend hours before clicking those few buttons.

dont u dare tell them about those spots !

Gnozo

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Dawnbreaker at level 10 in its current form is an exploit. Feel free to get yourself banned.

It is not. There are Zombies in the game wich dont give xp but points for fighters guild. And if i remember correrctly you get fighters guild Points if someone you just healed killed undead/daedra. But not Sure, someone told me years ago.

So stop defending your points without valid Arguments. Thanks.

Reverb

People have been rolling into non vet pvp with guild ultimates forever. The lowest I’ve ever gotten meteor and dawmbreaker both unlocked is level 18. This change makes it easier, but it’s always been possible with a little of effort.

Zer0oo

I really do not like the pay2win posts but the core is true. Alts should not be able to buy the guild skill lines before they hit 50. It will just be unfair against those really new players who will just get even more destroyed by some veteran player hiding in the beginner campaign.

yodased

Jierdanit wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Dawnbreaker at level 10 in its current form is an exploit. Feel free to get yourself banned.

You just have to kill something daedric/undead that doesn't grant XP. For example, the skeletal minions of a bone colossus don't grant XP when killed, and if you're patient, they respawn infinitely. Killing a player's daedric/undead pets doesn't grant XP. But unless there's a way to do this en masse, leveling FG this way is a slow tedious slog. Maybe there is a place where non-XP enemies spawn in quantity, but I can't think of any right now.

yodased wrote: »

Any time something is done that people don't understand it's an exploit. I was guilty of this mindset for too long

So why don't you share with the class how you do it?

The point still remains: just because twinking is already possible doesn't mean that it's a good idea to make it even easier to do. You can't prevent it, but at least you can discourage it. If someone really wants to twink out a character to roflstomp people in sub-50, then they'll have to spend the hours of to do it rather than get it all with the click of a few buttons.

There are several spots where there are zombies that spawn in 25-30 at a clip that give 0 XP and fighters guild.

Its 20 seconds or so to get 25 fg with a 10 second reset.

It takes 5.5 hours of grinding those mobs to get fg10

You can do this at level 3.

ALSO, if they are twinking by buying them, they already had to spend hours before clicking those few buttons.

dont u dare tell them about those spots !

Oh i've already reported as a bug many times, but im not going to share with people where to grind dawnbreaker for baby pvp lol.

I'll share HOW sure, but you are on your own to find them

Davadin

Dojohoda wrote: »

People can buy whatever they want but, in my opinion, purchased skill lines should be disabled in all instances of lowbie PVP. Gold gear and group dungeon and trial sets should also be disabled.

so if i bought Fighters Guild line at lv15, and at lv30 i start doing Fighter Guild quests and kill lots of Daedras until i'm lv40....


....i still need to wait 10 more level until I can use my Dawnbreaker in PvP?

Davadin

yodased wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

This only matters in lowbie PVP. It's not p2w. It can create an Advantage over new pvp'ers and over players who will not buy the skill lines for various reasons. By itself, extra skill lines are not extremely advantageous but, paired with gold gear that some dedicated rerollers have, it is absolutely a recipe for unfair gameplay, especially against new players.

BWB used to allow CP and it was finally disabled. Anyone who was there at the time should remember how ridiculous CP in BWB was.

People can buy whatever they want but, in my opinion, purchased skill lines should be disabled in all instances of lowbie PVP. Gold gear and group dungeon and trial sets should also be disabled.

Now here is a conversation that can and should happen in my opinion.

I am of the opinion that its a total scumbag thing to do and if you are rerolling gold geared pre50s then you are a horrible example of a gamer, but at the same time, if they can get 12 level 30s to run asylum or they spend the money to gold their gear why should that be disallowed?

The one thing that would be able to solve this is to have two pre 50 campaigns.

1 for people that do no have any characters above 50 and one for people that do. As soon as you hit CP you can no longer roll into that baby pvp.

this is a good solution.

The problem with this is there is no way enough population to support it.

....but this is also a good reason why it'll never happen.

jediodyn_ESO

Twinking is a problem in almost every MMO.

I agree with the OP and feel bad for the new players in the sub-50 campaign once this goes live.

HOWEVER, since they don’t seem to have the resources to balance, CP PvP Cyrodiil AND No CP PvP BGs/Cyrodiil for over level 50 players.... I don’t think they should bother trying to “balance” the game before that.

It’s historically acceptable to most MMO players that we understand PvP not to be balanced until endgame, but many games have died because of poor endgame PvP balancing.

Cortimi

I made this exact point in another thread and got nothing but hate. People are mostly pretty stupid.

Dojohoda

Davadin wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

People can buy whatever they want but, in my opinion, purchased skill lines should be disabled in all instances of lowbie PVP. Gold gear and group dungeon and trial sets should also be disabled.

so if i bought Fighters Guild line at lv15, and at lv30 i start doing Fighter Guild quests and kill lots of Daedras until i'm lv40....


....i still need to wait 10 more level until I can use my Dawnbreaker in PvP?

YES, if they restrict purchased lines from lowbie PVP and I do not believe they will do that. I care more about gold gear and trial/group-dungeon gear than purchased lines. The combination of it all seems bad for lowbie pvp.

exeeter702

Nordic__Knights

I don't care about the fact that somebody becomes the ultimate badass I'm more concerned in the fact that there's a achievements based on certain titles that fall behind things. And at this time the small majority of the game has got the emperor title which is a main title for completion of the overall game so let's exploite it by giving skills as well as skill points to become altar badasses and do what the normal player couldn't do himself. Thats what zos shouldn't be letting happen make it kill achievements if you buy that why if its not to exploit for a title or an achievement they wouldn't care about buying it still but if they wanted to get something for nothing more then buying CS items i mean the re rolling 😆 at gruops that do its already is funny at best if not outright emp salers or blockers for control of the land or 📜's

Aces-High-82

Because one is not allowed to collect lorebooks or farm anchors before hitting 50? Farming those two lines can be accomplished in few levels. Besides this fact who wants to pvp in the lowbie campaign?

Dusk_Coven

casparian wrote: »

The under 50 campaign is one of two things: a training wheels campaign for the inexperienced and undergeared, or a playground for maxed out twinks who have been rerolling there since it was Blackwater Blade. Since ZOS doesn’t enforce conditions that would promote the former, it has largely been the latter for years.

Exactly.

Under-50 is a very basic attempt at a League system. It's Minor Leagues. Then you graduate to Major Leagues (without really having the skills for it, only forced out because of unavoidable levelling) where there's no CP, and then beyond.

A proper League system with some heuristic for sorting players would actually be good, but that's apparently a lot of work and there are bound to still be exploiters.

Buying Skill Trees can't break an already broken system because I'm sure we already have people running around in rerolled toons with hand-me-down sets of Gold gear.

But there's a sucker born every minute, so newcomers will still go into that campaign until they figure out what's going on -- if they even go in at all because a lot of players coming into the game just read internet guides telling them to beg for training gear, go to Alik'r till they are cp160, then buy overpriced gear from Guild Stores to match a build they saw online.

TL;DR -- Don't worry about it. Instead, we should be pushing for a system of Leagues to sort players properly.

SeaUnicorn

Just make the skill line purchase available to lvl 50 toons, makes everyone happy. Alts get their skill lines when ready for end game content, twinks can't use them in below 50 pvp.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Don’t let them keep you focused on guilds maxed out vampire at level 10 is very unbalanced.
Personal I think CP and skill lines should be locked till you pass level 50 and players that reroll low level PvP be banned for griefing. New players have no chance to win that fight. Even if they get crafted gear they will still get facerolled and my quit the game.

When you take this to it’s natural end you will have lv. 10 players with vamp sneak, gold trial gear, years of knowledge, fully unlocked weapons and armor skill lines fighting new players this will be a level of toxic we have never seen and that’s saying a lot.

PureEnvelope35

I usually max all class /guild skill lines (excluding undaunted) before level 30 anyways, so it's really more a case of patience vs buying.

Runefang

And the quicker they rolfstomp you the quicker they're going to hit level 50 and have wasted their money.