So ESO has finally become pay to win.

MyKillv2.0

How does one “win” in ESO?

Did I beat the game when I maxed out undaunted guild skill line?

Commancho

Another feature requiring you to pay for something that should be included in a base game.

WeylandLabs

These threads will be endless I told you 😂

Somber97866

Seems like pay to convenience

DaiKahn

If you can buy something in the cash shop and not earn it in-game, then that's pay to win

If you can buy something in the cash shop and earn it in-game, then that's not pay to win

This was the original definition of pay to win years and years ago. What the OP describes is pay for convenience and saying otherwise is disingenuous. The only change has been people whinging and moving the goalposts because of personal bias

Edit: I will add though; I do understand the some of the communities concern with this and the belief new PvP players will be unfairly disadvantaged. Thing is though, wouldn't most of these players starting a new toon and going in to PvP with these pre-earned skill lines already be more skilled than the average new PvP'er? That point doesn't make it sound too bad to me

vesselwiththepestle

Somber97866 wrote: »

Seems like pay to convenience

Where does pay to convenience stop, though?

If I could buy fully leveled 50 characters, wouldn' it pay to convenience, too? Typically I just park my new characters at a horse station, log in once a day, level my mount, do a random normal, log out until they are 50. Sometimes I go some sky shard farming, public dungeon farming, lore book hunting. The last few levels I tend to do via Dolmen to level some skills.

It's not difficult, it just takes time. Some players are just grinding up their 50 levels in a few hours. It's doable.

At some point we'll see the possibility to buy leveled characters. I'd expect it some time around the rework of the CP system.

However, if I pay for convenience here and there and everywhere, I get an advantage over players who don't do so. In the same time I can get more characters fully statted. You can't tell me that's not an advantage. It's like flying in a space ship in light speed, while others are still walking (normal leveling) or driving a fast car (optimized grinding).

Yeah, it's not pay to win technically.

But at that point we should think about if it can be bad even if it is not pay to win.

I totally understand the players who want this convenience. Many even asked for making those skill lines account-wide. But it shouldn't be
taking to lightly, just because it's technically pay to convenience and not pay to win.

However, as someone else said, when do you win the game?

This isn't even considering the possibility, that ZOS will do intentionally more very grindy and boring skill lines, to add an incentive to buy those in the crown shop after completing them once.

Env_t

J2JMC wrote: »

Since the playerbase does not think this is pay to win, I recommend ZOS starts adding monster helms and trial sets in the crown store. ZOS can even sell them via lootbo...I mean surprise mechanics! Instant gold mine.

EXACTLY this
this topic ruined my belief in ESO community like thinking one
or all this paid ZOS employeers in the topic saying its not P2W

Banana

I dont think so

Rampeal

OMG I have to pay for plus to recieve bonuses that free players don't recieve. P2W ESO IS DYING!!!!ZOMG

Sephyr

Env_t wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Since the playerbase does not think this is pay to win, I recommend ZOS starts adding monster helms and trial sets in the crown store. ZOS can even sell them via lootbo...I mean surprise mechanics! Instant gold mine.

EXACTLY this
this topic ruined my belief in ESO community like thinking one
or all this paid ZOS employeers in the topic saying its not P2W

Loot is entirely different than skill lines. The thing is, we are thinking. We're thinking about how long it took us to max out several characters with the current roster ending at a max of 18 characters. "Don't have so many characters" isn't a solution. If they're willing to pay for that, more power to them. I don't because I get things that those paying for it often miss out on. Oh, but that 'totally doesn't count'.

If you're so apoplectic over the majority of the 'community' 'disagreeing' and stating that they're 'not thinking' or that we're all 'paid actors ZoS Employees', you might be happier on some web-browser based MMO.

corpseblade

I think we are seeing a shift in the expectations of MMO players. Those of us that started with Everquest took the RPG part of the games seriously. Our mindset is character-oriented NOT player. If you want an alt, you make a new character who earns their own way in the world. If you didn't want to repeat content, you didn't do it and worked with what you had. Period.

Now it feels like the emphasis on player and meta-gameplay changes MMOs. Those of us who grew up with MMOs (this might be at least their 10th) are instinctively bothered by this. By leaving out the RPG part of MMOs, you change the experience. You could go from one main to 18 characters in one day with what is being sold in the Crown Store (to push this to the extreme).

Class change tokens are emblematic of player v character mindset. Your character didn't do what it takes to build that class. For RPG players, that is just offensive because it is unearned.

And seriously, you all are not going to be satisfied unless you can put all your achievements on characters who didn't earn them. Because in your mind, the player earned it. Screw the RPG.

I am sad because I see a time where MMORPGs won't exist. They'll just be multiplayer games without meaningful characters.

Razzledazzle_dar

Play or play not, there is no win.

Delparis

they said pay for convenience

same BS in Fallout 76, ESO has fallen so low

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otT6w0-jGI0

Elsonso

Delparis wrote: »

they said pay for convenience

same BS in Fallout 76, ESO has fallen so low

Here, I see a subtle difference.

This is "alt" related. Only affects alts.

I don't want them to "fix" the alts in this game, as the video suggested. This is long standing behavior of the game that used to require the player to do these things for alts. Pre-dates the Crown Store. If a player does not want to do that work, I have no problem with them not doing the work. I just have a problem with them purchasing, or obtaining, a Crown bypass for doing that work.

Admittedly, I see what ZOS is offering as somewhat less of a problem than the FO76 repair kits and scrap convenience stuff. In this case, ZOS is not going and ruining the game by adding this alt convenience stuff into the game as part of the base game experience.

It is still far past that line where the "slippery slope" starts, of course.

JKorr

Just checked....still can't buy the Cyrodiil skyshards because none of the 18 characters I have found them yet. Gosh, I thought pay to win [although no one has ever actually stated what exactly you're winning, I mean, no emperor, no emperor costume, no maelstrom weapons, nothing uber leet annihilate enemies with a gesture in their general direction items] should give you more stuff?..... /sarcasm

scorpius2k1

Why is it so hard to see the bigger issue unfolding here? It's upsetting that something like that should have to be explained to those that see it as such a small "convenience" feature. Watch where this spirals over time and it will become quite obvious why it's a bad idea.

D0PAMINE

Lowbie characters are already extremely strong. I doubt I would notice if they had Mettle or any damage passives unless I saw them using dawnbrraker.

sunbro38

if not for summerset i would not have access to psijic skills or jewelry crafting. psijic increases my dps and survivability and jewelry crafting allows me to change traits for more dps or survivability.
looks a little p2w to me....and summerset was released a year ago. are people so ignorant/blind they couldn't see the writing on the wall?

berzerkdethb14_ESO1

pod88kk wrote: »

There we have it folks. Judging by the new PTS patch note, you can now buy the fully leveled Undaunted skill line. Are we finally seeing the decline of ESO?

While i think this should be a QoL addition that can be purchased with gold or just account wide because we PAY FOR THIS GAME, it is NOT pay to win. Nothing about this gives one an advantage over another since you have to have done the skill line prior.

It is bad, and it should be account bound with achievements like other games you need to pay for. ESO is not a free to play phone game.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Undaunted I get, that is an annoying limited grind, I can only get 30 rep a day on my main, so its restricted by time, psijic and mages guild though? Just google a map and blast a few hours on a sunday afternoon and its done, why pay?

wishlist14

I find undaunted the easiest to level imo because I find dungeons fun and so I dont even think about it. I get a lot of xp in dungeons so i dont see the issue with getting undaunted rep. Non of the undaunted skills are crucial to any of my builds
There's the tanking skill but i dont tank atm so im not fussed about it really. Most of my level 50s are at undaunted 10 and I never bothered to pay it any attention.

I did the psijiic skillsline on 9 characters simultaneously even on my non magicka characters? Im ocd like that 😆
It was a lot of work and i have 3 necromancers to do now....i have one of their pvp skills all open so 2 to go there then it's fighters guild and skyshards and books are all done as i go about the map.

I refuse to buy these skilllines as I personally feel that working for them or grinding makes me feel more connected to my characters. I don't mind buying costumes and pets and furnishings or houses with crowms so i cant judge what players buy with crowns, it would be hypocritical of me to do so., We all have our preferences for things we are willing to pay crowns for.

Now, if they took away our right to earn these skill lines ourselves via grinding then I would say the game is p2w because there would be no way to progress in the game without buying those skill lines but as is we can grind them.

I don't think it's pay to win, what I do think it is, is pay for convenience.

I need to add that I was totally against this but I have learned to accept it and move on as it doesn't affect the way I play my game. I'll just continue on as i always have, earning my skills ingame thank you.😊

Oxkill

Make it available ONLY to 50 lvl characters. This change is still pay-to-win for low levels, thus it is unacceptable.

I

pantaro30

corpseblade wrote: »

I think we are seeing a shift in the expectations of MMO players. Those of us that started with Everquest took the RPG part of the games seriously. Our mindset is character-oriented NOT player. If you want an alt, you make a new character who earns their own way in the world. If you didn't want to repeat content, you didn't do it and worked with what you had. Period.

Now it feels like the emphasis on player and meta-gameplay changes MMOs. Those of us who grew up with MMOs (this might be at least their 10th) are instinctively bothered by this. By leaving out the RPG part of MMOs, you change the experience. You could go from one main to 18 characters in one day with what is being sold in the Crown Store (to push this to the extreme).

Class change tokens are emblematic of player v character mindset. Your character didn't do what it takes to build that class. For RPG players, that is just offensive because it is unearned.

And seriously, you all are not going to be satisfied unless you can put all your achievements on characters who didn't earn them. Because in your mind, the player earned it. Screw the RPG.

I am sad because I see a time where MMORPGs won't exist. They'll just be multiplayer games without meaningful characters.

THANK YOU!

Ozby

manny254 wrote: »

This should be only allowed on characters that are lvl 50+. It would make lowbie PVP disgusting and ruin the PVP experience of first time players.

Yeah I would agree with only having them available on lvl 50 toons as well. But what about ledgerdemain and ones that do not affect pvp? can ZOS actually make certain ones only available at lvl 50?

Jeremy

Where would this board be without the daily does of semantics over the phrase pay to win.

barney2525

Gilvoth wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

You do need to have the line completed already on a character before you can buy it, just like the skyshards. Seems more like a pay to not have to repeat content.

exactly.
everything should be that way in eso.
once its unlocked it should be able unlocked on all new characters as well.

knew this nonsense would show up too

xaraan

I think this falls under P2W pretty easily if you are talking about under 50. If they didn't allow the purchase of this stuff until 50, or maybe even 40-45, then you could call it pay for convenience. But then, too many players would be partially leveled in those lines and zos wouldn't sell as much.

What it is was summed up perfectly in two videos I saw that came out this week. The first was from gopher who is more of a let's play type youtuber that was talking about FO76, but touches on the same discussion. Hiding behind semantics of what is exactly pay to win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFjepWWv9xA&t=0s

And the other was from Yong Yea, love him or hate him, he bought up a very interesting industry discussion in this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ywdh1on_HU&t=0s

And it's funny how ESO falls squarely into the biggest category that game makers take advantage of: Pay for Convenience.

It's crazy to me that people are wanting to pay to not play part of the game. This means not only will they never address those old boring questlines, but next year, when they add a new guild (my guess, it will be some sort of guild skill line like psijic and not a new class) that they will have no encouragement to make it less grindy, in fact even more reason to do so. Because we can just sell players the ability to skip the grind.

To me, it's just bad for the game long term. But if they at least gate it to not allow low level players to drop a wad a cash and max out a bunch of skill lines as soon as they enter pvp scenerios, then it's more tolerable. But I do think we have been going in a bad direction. Why not allow any player to buy anything they've "done at least once" on a character b/c of convenience? I have a MA bow, why farm for another, just sell me a second one, not like I can't move that bow between characters when I need to anyway. I have a set of Yoln. armor from SS for my tank, but I need a couple more sets, just let me buy them, I already earned the first set. Etc. Etc.

If you are a game selling 'convenience' then you designed part of your game poorly. Whether you did it intentionally or not. I guess it's a short term solution for players to be satisfied to just pay to skip those poorly designed elements and keeps them happy - well, the ones with money anyway. And keeps the players without money always a little behind.

Should be nothing for sell IMO but cosmetic items.

Nordic__Knights

Here's a scenario for all you saying it's not pay-to-win let's say I'm a day one player never achieve the Emperor title but yet here it is I could make a sub buy all my maxed out skills with all my skyshards and take that level 10 into the below 50 cyrodiil and get my Emperor title which also gives me a end game achievement as well for my Platinum overall achievement for the game now will you call this pay to win are paid to convenience are just paid to exploit the game
Ps. The emperorship title has been achieved by less than 5% of the overall game players within ESO as of date

Kalante

I haven't payed eso plus for probably the past 5 months and it feels great not incentivizing a company who cares so little about game performance. As far as pay to win, I don't see any extreme pay to win in eso. Tell me where can I buy a hundings rage set in which the paying variant gives 599 weapon damage from the 5th piece as opposed to the in game one where it does 299 weapon damage. There is none and same applies to any in game vanilla set.

You can say the new gear sets from DLC chapters are pay to win because you can gain a substantial 10k dps boost as opposed to running non paying sets. Now that's borderline pay to win because it still doesn't guarantee you in beating the content but sure makes it a lot easier than a guy running spriggans and some random crafted set. Iv'e always hated this part of PVE, you want to run the best you better pay for the best and that is in elsweyr so get ***** **** face.

Even if they went full on pay to win they would end up screwing balance after all the emphasis the player base puts on it. Essentially destroying the game the amount of rage would be of epic proportions.

armyissue69

Finally? And, Who cares? And, if you don’t like the game, go play something else. And, why is this post allowed?...seems trolling and not constructive.