So ESO has finally become pay to win.

Gnozo

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Damn, I didn't expect this out of ZOS. I guess Elsweyr didn't make that much money for ZOS. After many of players did Chargebacks on ZOS.

ESO and GW2 was the last hold outs. I guess now it's just GW2. Sad times indeed for the gaming hobby.

@FearlessOne_2014

GW2 has a Level 50 boost in shop while also giving you quite okaisch gear with it.

And you complain about ESO selling guild skill lines that you need to have unlocked before on another char?

GW2 basicly gives you the option to instantly jump to max level after installing the game.

agegarton

This is fundamentally NOT "pay to win". This is simply a shortcut, very much in the same vein as the Skyshard process was in the last patch, enabling players (especially long term players) to create a new character and not have to repeat content over and over.

Does it make anyone a better player ? No.

Does it provide any kind of advantage that the player does not already have ? No.

Luede

manny254 wrote: »

This should be only allowed on characters that are lvl 50+. It would make lowbie PVP disgusting and ruin the PVP experience of first time players.

to be fair, if someone already unlocked this skill line on an other char, he will be far ahead first time players anyway. but i see ur point.

Uryel

Those are the days of instant gratification, where people can't be arsed earning things.

I'm going back to pre-WoW era. Those games were like Ents : everything took a long time, so you only did them if they were worth it... But it certainly felt rewarding when you did.

This "let's buy skill lines fully leveled" is once more a nod towards PvP : "but it's boooooring to play a character in PvE just so I can get that one skill I want to copy that build I found on the interwebz !". How many times have we heard that, eh ? Well, congo rats, ZOS answered you prayers.

Just a quick reminder : PvP is ONE zone in the game, PvE is 21 zones. Focus shouldn't be on the niche.

WeerW3ir

Uryel wrote: »

Those are the days of instant gratification, where people can't be arsed earning things.

I'm going back to pre-WoW era. Those games were like Ents : everything took a long time, so you only did them if they were worth it... But it certainly felt rewarding when you did.

This "let's buy skill lines fully leveled" is once more a nod towards PvP : "but it's boooooring to play a character in PvE just so I can get that one skill I want to copy that build I found on the interwebz !". How many times have we heard that, eh ? Well, congo rats, ZOS answered you prayers.

Just a quick reminder : PvP is ONE zone in the game, PvE is 21 zones. Focus shouldn't be on the niche.

are you really pulling out the zones card? bhahaha.

ZOS SETS EVERY SKILL AND ABILITY BASED ON PVP. not pve.

Elsonso

Uryel wrote: »

This "let's buy skill lines fully leveled" is once more a nod towards PvP : "but it's boooooring to play a character in PvE just so I can get that one skill I want to copy that build I found on the interwebz !". How many times have we heard that, eh ? Well, congo rats, ZOS answered you prayers.

I don't like the new convenience options that ZOS introduces. This is an RPG game, so it cheapens the overall game. I mean, it used to be that when I saw a high level, well equipped, character that it represented a player with a similar investment in the game as myself. That creates a weak, but present, social link between us. Now, a high level well equipped character represents the Champion System and a potential sizable investment in the Crown Store, possibly someone who has been lucky at the Crown Crates. I have much less in common with that player. Soon, I expect that ZOS will sell titles, either directly or though purchasable achievements, and I will have even less in common with them.

It is, admittedly, an excellent source of revenue, and if Bethesda Softworks titles have any tell-tale traits, it is that they don't like to leave money on the table. TANSTAAFL. ZOS has learned well.

I get at least one reason why players want to build alts quickly. In part, ZOS drives this with skills and gear changes that drive the meta builds to new classes and races. These builds can change every three months. Creating a new character is free, aside from time, and the longer it takes, the less utility the character has before the meta changes. TANSTAAFL. Now players can pay ZOS to accelerate that.

chetter_hummin

I do support the skill line introduced in crown store. and it s not pay to win. The definition of pay to win is that u will get skills ONLY if u pay and those skills are better than the regular ones. And this is not the case, u simply has the option of buying the skills that otherwise u can get by yourself by grinding. if u consider the mages guild grinding such an important development for all your characters u are free to do so. But if u do not u can buy it. It s an option and it s welcoming.

Sebar80

Skyshards on their own where not P2W, cause you still had to level up your skills, use abilities and play the game.
Skill lines in isolation would not be P2W cause you would still had to play the game i order to unlock each skill either by completing quests, dungeons or collect skyshards.
Due to progression curve neither would make you to op. However when both are considered you gain access to skills and shards to fully populate the 1st bar on level 1 character and 2 bar on level 15.

There is currently no way in game that would allow you to obtain same power by just simply playing it. This is by definition P2W. By paying you get something that makes you more powerfull and it is not possible to obtain the same benefits by just playing.

It impacts however very little, mainly under 50 pvp. In itself it does not make you win or loose anything important in game apart from couple BG titles very easily.
However the seal clubbing already going on in under 50 pvp will go beyond anything seen in this game. It will be basicly unplayable for any new players. Any newbie will be owned so hard they will have no idea what is happening. This will turn many new players away from game and especially pvp/bgs. Its not going to be healthy for a game. To not make it p2w but rather p4c it should affect characters after level 50.

Sebar80

agegarton wrote: »

This is fundamentally NOT "pay to win". This is simply a shortcut, very much in the same vein as the Skyshard process was in the last patch, enabling players (especially long term players) to create a new character and not have to repeat content over and over.

Does it make anyone a better player ? No.

Does it provide any kind of advantage that the player does not already have ? No.

If you have fully populated 2 bars with bis skills and ultis you don't have to be better to win the fight. You actual could be much worse and still win it. Its a p2w when both shards and skill line purchases are enabled.

The difference would be even more apparent the lower level your oponents are.

A level 15 who purchased shards and skills can own anyone i under 50 pvp, the progression gap is removed by paying. Also even level 49 not paying player will be disadvantaged when facing level 15 paying player

Drako_Ei

sO eSo HaS FiNaLlY bEcOmE PaY tO wIn.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Eso became p2w far longer ago when the DLCs started (I'm not saying it's a bad thing). This type of stuff is just purely time saving not p2w.

shaielzafine

I wouldn't mind the level 50 boost somebody mentioned like from guild wars 2. It complements the skyshards skill points pack and the skill lines packs for alts. They could do a wayshrines unlock at this point as well. It's all technically been earned by my other characters so...

Galwylin

What’s interesting is ZOS has taken the idea of making everything account based rather than character based and monetized it. And some folks were so against that but fine this way. But my concern comes in at you either are paying monthly (subscribing or maybe playing crates) after having to buy the new chapter. So is the game needing money to function or is this just fatting their wallets? Given that the game is successful it just strikes me as a feature they could have just opened everyone but greed won out. Which has been happening a lot with things with Bethesda in the title.

I know a lot of folks here (unusual proportion) believe in corporate welfare where this company needs more and more of our cash but I’m sure a lot of us wonder what the game would be like were they using all that money to beef it up and not the stock payouts. Like I’ve been hoping for some work to be done on character faces so I don’t have to keep seeing a dead corpse mouthing words but so far that money seems to evaporate into somebody’s pocket. But hey, the dragons look nice I guess but...

MellowMagic

I dont think its pay to win, but I personally dont like the idea of skill lines and skyshards being bought. It's an mmo if you want to make a new character you gotta do the grind, alot of you havnt played runescape and it shows lol.

regime211

pod88kk wrote: »

There we have it folks. Judging by the new PTS patch note, you can now buy the fully leveled Undaunted skill line. Are we finally seeing the decline of ESO?

Bruh undaunted just offers you a percentage more in resources, it isn't even that serious. Pay 2 win to me is if I was able to pay my way to level 50 without grinding. Or flat out right buying the best gear from the store.

regime211

manny254 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Confirmed that having the undaunted skill line makes you "win" ESO.

Place two players into under 50 PVP at level 15. Now give one player access to powerful PVP skills such as DB, Meteor, Race against time, New Circle of Prot, New Entropy, and so on.

Are you telling me that the player who has all of the extra skills didn’t pay for power? Not to even mention undaunted.

Even without all of that. They still get Lowrie buffs and can burst your face in so? Maybe L2P issue?

Elsonso

Galwylin wrote: »

So is the game needing money to function or is this just fatting their wallets? Given that the game is successful it just strikes me as a feature they could have just opened everyone but greed won out. Which has been happening a lot with things with Bethesda in the title.

My opinion, which is somewhat cynical, is what I see as the Bethesda "leave no coin on the table" philosophy. Bethesda wants to make money selling post-sale consumer content. Handing out free stuff only works if it helps to enable revenue from other areas.

TANSTAAFL. Even the free stuff that we are handed is done so with the expectation that it will encourage additional revenue.

I do not believe in corporate welfare. ZOS and Bethesda should get paid in proportion to the value they provide, and if they cannot provide the value in enough quantity to get paid enough to justify the work they are doing, they should move on to other work.

RedGirl41

Idk if it’s 100% pay to win but no I don’t think you should be able to buy anything like that from the crown store. If ur a new player then actually do the content. You want a new toon then you need to level and grind it out, kind of the whole point of an mmo. All the people that have min max characters and slaughter everything (especially in pvp) have earned it all and put in the time.

Myrkgrav

Some of you have never played a truly P2W MMO and it shows.

StShoot

The problem i see is that bethesda adds more and more microtransactions to every single one of their games:
Just look FO76 they said they wouldnt release any gameplay affecting microtransactions to the game ONLY Cosmetics, but now we have repaircits, in a lootershooter where you only farm stuff to Build/upgrade/REPAIR other stuff.
Sure you can argue that it is not pay to win because you can still beat a player but it grants an ingame advantage.
Its the same with the skilllines or lets break it even more down with the repaircits from the eso crownstore, they give me an ingame advantage, because i dont have to spent the time/gold to repair/grind them up.

This isnt the worst kind of Microtransaction (like Battlefront) but Zos/Bethseda abuses that grey line between cosmeticonly and p2w microtransactions. It isnt Gamebreaking either (well except in lowbie PvP) but if we accept this what will be added in the future ? Skyshards-> Guildlines->lvl 1-50 skip-> 100 cps packs->direct purchase of ingame gold-> Msa/Raid sets/Weapons ?

Remember that outrage when bethesda released Horseamor for oblivion ? even tho it was ONLY cosmetic in a singleplayergame? Well these days a practice like this is totaly normal, AAA Companys slowly start "heating up the water so we dont notice that we get cooked "

The Real question is where a player draws the line, do you think P2W if you can purchase something only for money, or is it p2w if you can purchase stuff for that another player have to grind for hours?

Merlight

lordrichter wrote: »

My opinion, which is somewhat cynical, is what I see as the Bethesda "leave no coin on the table" philosophy.

How dare you?! It's "engaging with the community" philosophy.

MyKillv2.0

pod88kk wrote: »

There we have it folks. Judging by the new PTS patch note, you can now buy the fully leveled Undaunted skill line. Are we finally seeing the decline of ESO?

Phew. I thought I was going to have to "get gud" but now with those extra 6% extra stats... I will pwn potatoes

scorpius2k1

@Alcast makes some VERY good points to all of this imho, I suggest everyone have a watch...

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ohOnJXnLCrM

khajiitNPC

QQ it’s not free

jircris11

pod88kk wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Amazing how many IDIOTS use p2w wrong. O2w is the act if obtaining a boost that in NO WAY can be obtained with in game means. Such as some Korean mmos that sell costumes that give stat boosts. As for dlcs,locked classes ect. every mmo dies it. Hell singleplayer games do it, get over it.

It's P2W not o2w....... Who's the idiot now?

Considering my phone loves changing words I say android.

Bryath

It's amazing to see how the culture has changed over the years. 20 years ago, 99.9% of players would have been absolutely against something like this.
It is what it is though. In my gut, I hate it, but I will just try to push that down and LMAO at people who'll pay the full price of a AAA game to unlock 2 skill lines on a single toon.

AnomanderisPurake

ATomiX96 wrote: »

O_LYKOS wrote: »

Pay to win?

You can simply grind and level up the skill line. Its just a shortcut. Barely a p2w.

Give it a rest

You can go do vet trials for skins. Buying skins from the crown store would be just a shortcut right? So lets put all the skins into the crown store as well.

I dont know why people play MMORPGs which revolve around character progression and build up when all they truly seek is instant gratification and ZOS is cashing the *** out on those people.
Lets just put everything into the crown store so you dont have to play the game at all anymore if thats what people want.
Stop putting gameplay impairing *** into the crown store, just *** keep it at costumes, mounts and other cosmetics.
This *** is even worse than crown crates and that should say enough.

Do you understand the fact that not all people who want to play an MMORPG have the time to do so? There are many people who earn a lot and don't have the time to play games. What about those "casuals" as people call them? I get a maximum of 3 hours a week to play and I'd rather spend money to not have to REPEAT things I've already done in-game just to play another character. Why shouldn't I be able to do that? You are blowing things out of proportion and derailing the conversation (Which in my opinion has no reason to be happening). ZOS is letting you unlock things on an alt that you have ALREADY unlocked on your main. Not everyone has both time and money to burn, most often its one or the other. Why shouldn't they let people pay for convenience? It's not P2W.

Take Guild Wars 2 for example, the game offers account-wide progression on mount training, glider training along with account-wide achievements. Any additional skill line besides the class skill lines are account-wide in that game and even beginner characters have those abilities from level 1. Recently, after the first expansion they also offer a free level-boost to max level (80) with every purchase of the expansion and it can also be purchased in the Gem Store at any time.

These things did not make the game P2W, this only drew more players to the game as people who could previously not play the game due to the levelling process, which could be tedious to players with little time. I myself picked up the game in 2014, never played much but began playing on a regular basis once the expansion came out and I got the level boost.
It doesn't make things P2W and allows casual players to have fun, it's about time people like me who have little time get to have some fun on MMORPGs too.

MajBludd

It has, it's over. Everyone quit the game now!

disintegr8

P2W is only relevant if you compete against other players. PVP is such a small part of this game now that it won't impact most people if others have more money than sense.

Games dying anyway, ZOS are just trying to get the last dregs out of the players.

AnomanderisPurake

shaielzafine wrote: »

I wouldn't mind the level 50 boost somebody mentioned like from guild wars 2. It complements the skyshards skill points pack and the skill lines packs for alts. They could do a wayshrines unlock at this point as well. It's all technically been earned by my other characters so...

GW2 offers wayshrine unlocks as well, in fact they offer wayshrine unlocks for every major zone so if you want to unlock all wayshrines in the world you have to buy several packs. And if i'm not wrong, they aren't account wide- its pay-per-character. So essentially if you level an alt using their instant lvl 80 boost, you will also have to buy at least 3 wayshrine unlocks for the character as well. The level 80 boost itself comes bundled with the starting wayshrine for every zone on the map bundled into it.