Twilight Matriarch is overperforming

leepalmer95

Im being hit like 3k crits off this thing with 30k armour lmao.

It hits really hard.

karekiz

Nerf necro ult kthx

kalunte

200% agree. could be a step in a good direction.

templesus

Arciris wrote: »

One thing I never see mentioned are passives.

When you slot a skill, especially class skills, you get either additional benefits from it being slotted, or an extra effect for being used (like ulti-gen for example), or both.
When you double slot anything, it's a missed opportunity to have extra effects from your passives.
With any summon from it's class, a sorc gains health and stam recovery and 8% max health and eventually a small magika return when the pet dies or is un-summoned. And that's it. 3 benefits (generously considering Rebate here) for 2 slots.
And what does the Matriarch do to justify those 3 passives for 2 slots? It heals (at a cost) and it deals single target damage (for free before Curse)

Since the Matriarch is often compared to BoL, I suggest people take a look at what passives Templars benefit from when casting BoL on one bar, and let's say Vampire's Bane on the other - or Blazing Spear ... See what I mean?

As for LoS issues, I'm sorry but Lol.
The best pets to LoS with are either Monster sets (available to everyone) like (not limited to) Maw of the Infernal, that spawn in your face, or the Storm Atro ult, the big thing that stays planted like a tree while doing a lot more damage than the Matriarch.
Even the Scamp is better for LoS, as its position is more predictable than the Matriarch, whose AI is set to follow the caster, which only makes it more or less useful for LoS when retreating.

I suggest to people who think it's so OP, to try to deliberately LoSing with the Matriarch only, and tell me how it goes. Hint: it's not as easy as it seems.

Another thing: be careful what you wish for.
Do you really want un-targetable pets? When you can just kill or simply CC the Matriarch and remove any healing capability a Pet sorc has (making it an easy kill afterwards) now?

Sorry, but all I see here are L2P issues, as usual.

Who wants untargetable pets? Just put in a true tab targeting system in the game. And get rid of the damage but make it one barrable.

Uh ohs, now all the LoSing carried pet sorcs just started sweating. A change that might actually make them have to use skill.

Compare twilight to the Necro archer. Look at the disparity between the two.

Priyasekarssk

templesus wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

One thing I never see mentioned are passives.

When you slot a skill, especially class skills, you get either additional benefits from it being slotted, or an extra effect for being used (like ulti-gen for example), or both.
When you double slot anything, it's a missed opportunity to have extra effects from your passives.
With any summon from it's class, a sorc gains health and stam recovery and 8% max health and eventually a small magika return when the pet dies or is un-summoned. And that's it. 3 benefits (generously considering Rebate here) for 2 slots.
And what does the Matriarch do to justify those 3 passives for 2 slots? It heals (at a cost) and it deals single target damage (for free before Curse)

Since the Matriarch is often compared to BoL, I suggest people take a look at what passives Templars benefit from when casting BoL on one bar, and let's say Vampire's Bane on the other - or Blazing Spear ... See what I mean?

As for LoS issues, I'm sorry but Lol.
The best pets to LoS with are either Monster sets (available to everyone) like (not limited to) Maw of the Infernal, that spawn in your face, or the Storm Atro ult, the big thing that stays planted like a tree while doing a lot more damage than the Matriarch.
Even the Scamp is better for LoS, as its position is more predictable than the Matriarch, whose AI is set to follow the caster, which only makes it more or less useful for LoS when retreating.

I suggest to people who think it's so OP, to try to deliberately LoSing with the Matriarch only, and tell me how it goes. Hint: it's not as easy as it seems.

Another thing: be careful what you wish for.
Do you really want un-targetable pets? When you can just kill or simply CC the Matriarch and remove any healing capability a Pet sorc has (making it an easy kill afterwards) now?

Sorry, but all I see here are L2P issues, as usual.

Who wants untargetable pets? Just put in a true tab targeting system in the game. And get rid of the damage but make it one barrable.

Uh ohs, now all the LoSing carried pet sorcs just started sweating. A change that might actually make them have to use skill.

Compare twilight to the Necro archer. Look at the disparity between the two.

Take away pets. Just give decent sustain, debuffs and CC to sorc same as NB and DK. Then we can talk.

Arciris

templesus wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

One thing I never see mentioned are passives.

Since the Matriarch is often compared to BoL, I suggest people take a look at what passives Templars benefit from when casting BoL on one bar, and let's say Vampire's Bane on the other - or Blazing Spear ... See what I mean?

As for LoS issues, I'm sorry but Lol.
The best pets to LoS with are either Monster sets (available to everyone) like (not limited to) Maw of the Infernal, that spawn in your face, or the Storm Atro ult, the big thing that stays planted like a tree while doing a lot more damage than the Matriarch.
Even the Scamp is better for LoS, as its position is more predictable than the Matriarch, whose AI is set to follow the caster, which only makes it more or less useful for LoS when retreating.

I suggest to people who think it's so OP, to try to deliberately LoSing with the Matriarch only, and tell me how it goes. Hint: it's not as easy as it seems.

Another thing: be careful what you wish for.
Do you really want un-targetable pets? When you can just kill or simply CC the Matriarch and remove any healing capability a Pet sorc has (making it an easy kill afterwards) now?

Sorry, but all I see here are L2P issues, as usual.

Who wants untargetable pets? Just put in a true tab targeting system in the game. And get rid of the damage but make it one barrable.

Uh ohs, now all the LoSing carried pet sorcs just started sweating. A change that might actually make them have to use skill.

Compare twilight to the Necro archer. Look at the disparity between the two.

What the game needs is proper Death Recaps.

The Twilight zaps every 2 seconds (unlike other DoTs that tick usually every second), and yet I see Death Recaps with 3 zaps on them. That's a whole 6 seconds. 6 seconds.
Those Death Recaps are made by people who just stand there doing nothing but getting zapped - noob at best, hypocrite at worst.
And yes, I sometimes use the Matriarch on my Sorc in PvP. Only the Matriarch, no zoo. Well, sometimes the Storm Atro for area of denial and LoS needs.
But with only the Matriarch up, when I LoS, I do it the old fashion way: rocks, trees and other terrain obstacles because the Matriarch is never where I want it to be and I don't have time to waste trying to control it, simple as that.

Not to mention PvE. All (un-needed) changes in this thread will wreck the only PvE pet class the game has to offer.

The focus on the Matriarch is FOTM, there are many other pets in the game, just because the game could use a better targeting system, doesn't mean one particular pet needs nerfs in the way it works.

Saril_Durzam

The goal of "toning down" as you propose an important skill of a class, is clearly to tone down the class itself. Every class has skills that outperforms. A skill that takes 2 slots need to be really good so any player would slot it.

Considering that mostly any Stamina class outperforms mag sorcerer, i don´t see your point. Sure, some issues like the LOS could be changed for PVP. For example, making the pets way smaller than now.

If anything, what the skill needs is a revamp in the hands of the Tormentor. Matriarch is miles better unless we´re heading for parses. Let´s not forget the matriarch heal is the only direct heal that the class has (sure, you can slot Power Surge but that heal doesn´t come when you need it), compared with Stamina classes with Vigor. Which also heals allies, by the way. And that you will see in mostly EVERY stamina build (just talking about skills which could need to be toned down, in your concerns).

The solution is clear: rather than take Matriarch DPS out (its ok if you give that DPS back to Sorcs in passives, for example. Let´s remember magsorcs are behind most stam classes in DPS terms), why don´t give Tormentor a more serious DPS buff? This way, Sorcs would have to choose between survability or more DPS. In an ideal world where your healers heal everything, it would be clear what to choose, but i bet 95% of the players don´t play in such ideal world. And giving more DPS to Sorcs just would get them closer to stam builds, which isn´t bad at all. At a cost, by the way.

I understand magsorcs were DPS kings on its day, but these days are gone. Now they have some other advantages despite go behind in DPS, and one would be precisely to have a DoT which can heal members, and bring utility to the party.

I feel you tried to conceal that "nerf sorcs" feelings - PvP defeats?- behind a "logic" proposition, taking Matriarch in a vaccum. Sure, if that skill would be a stamina Necromancers or Nightblades one, would be needed for balancing classes. Luckly, it´s not.

Saril_Durzam

Maybe the right tile of this post should be "Matriach is making magicka sorcerer outperforms".

Which is not true.

TheYKcid

Arciris wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

One thing I never see mentioned are passives.

Since the Matriarch is often compared to BoL, I suggest people take a look at what passives Templars benefit from when casting BoL on one bar, and let's say Vampire's Bane on the other - or Blazing Spear ... See what I mean?

As for LoS issues, I'm sorry but Lol.
The best pets to LoS with are either Monster sets (available to everyone) like (not limited to) Maw of the Infernal, that spawn in your face, or the Storm Atro ult, the big thing that stays planted like a tree while doing a lot more damage than the Matriarch.
Even the Scamp is better for LoS, as its position is more predictable than the Matriarch, whose AI is set to follow the caster, which only makes it more or less useful for LoS when retreating.

I suggest to people who think it's so OP, to try to deliberately LoSing with the Matriarch only, and tell me how it goes. Hint: it's not as easy as it seems.

Another thing: be careful what you wish for.
Do you really want un-targetable pets? When you can just kill or simply CC the Matriarch and remove any healing capability a Pet sorc has (making it an easy kill afterwards) now?

Sorry, but all I see here are L2P issues, as usual.

Who wants untargetable pets? Just put in a true tab targeting system in the game. And get rid of the damage but make it one barrable.

Uh ohs, now all the LoSing carried pet sorcs just started sweating. A change that might actually make them have to use skill.

Compare twilight to the Necro archer. Look at the disparity between the two.

What the game needs is proper Death Recaps.

The Twilight zaps every 2 seconds (unlike other DoTs that tick usually every second), and yet I see Death Recaps with 3 zaps on them. That's a whole 6 seconds. 6 seconds.
Those Death Recaps are made by people who just stand there doing nothing but getting zapped - noob at best, hypocrite at worst.
And yes, I sometimes use the Matriarch on my Sorc in PvP. Only the Matriarch, no zoo. Well, sometimes the Storm Atro for area of denial and LoS needs.
But with only the Matriarch up, when I LoS, I do it the old fashion way: rocks, trees and other terrain obstacles because the Matriarch is never where I want it to be and I don't have time to waste trying to control it, simple as that.

Not to mention PvE. All (un-needed) changes in this thread will wreck the only PvE pet class the game has to offer.

The focus on the Matriarch is FOTM, there are many other pets in the game, just because the game could use a better targeting system, doesn't mean one particular pet needs nerfs in the way it works.

Nearly every DoT in the game ticks at 2s intervals, you genius.

Perhaps do the bare minimum of research the next time you feel the need to write a wall of drivel. Or play another class for once.

This is why it's hard to take the magsorc-main lobby seriously.

Tsar_Gekkou

Just remove the damage dropoff for the Tormentor and allow the active to do more damage all the time instead of only above 50% health and more people will use it.

Icy_Waffles

Leave it as is. Good lord. I’ve never had an issue fighting a sorc who is running this.

CambionDaemon

When they fix the actual sorc, then they can change how the pets work. Non pet sorc is bottom of the barrel, 2 pet sorc can hold its own against stamina classes in PvE. In PvP yes a sorc can hide behind their pets, but they cannot attack through their pets (just like you cannot hit them). But stamina still holds supreme in PvP and will do, because ZoS refuse to nerf stamina (or buff magicka).

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed several baiting comments that contained personal insults. This is a reminder that comments need to remain constructive and civil. It is fine to disagree with each other, but name calling and baiting remarks only derail the thread. Thank you.

Cyantific87

All the posts trying to compare the skill to others like funnel and path. Just ridiculous. The pet takes up two skill slots.

While we are on the subject of nerfs.. because let’s be honest, that’s all this post is about...how about nerf major vulnerability or take it away from necro and add it to a new undaunted ultimate.. So that in the high end PVE groups, they aren’t all forced to run a buggy, poorly executed class, which we have to pay for to use.

Gorilla

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Well done OP, that pet is B R O K E N this recent few patches. No other burst heal in the game has basicly a built in Overwhelming Surge. Its free damage as if the magsorc needed more damage not to mention a meat shield and an insane burst heal. I believe removing the damage altogether is in line with other abilities where you choose between a heal or damage morph.

Don't bother. The sorc love is so strong no one will admit that there are seriously PVP OP issues with the class (PVP comment only). Double shielding with stealth protection and 5-6k zapping hits from its big bug...then layer on top4-5 skills that can be cast simultaneously that hit like a wrecking ball because you're cursed. Lol...

Gorilla

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

To everyone complaining about Sorc Pets being required to double bar...why not just complain to make it a single bar slot that carries over? Shade carries, Netch carries, Skeletal Mage carries. Once this is done the skill can be reworked to morph for heal or morph for damage.

Case closed. This skill is rediculous...you can heal for as much as a BoL or Coag at a much lower cost, provides free damage and can be used to crutch on as a mobile LoS...

Great idea. Make them 10-20 second re-casts. Problem is many of the sorcs I know will just add them to their macros.

Arciris

TheYKcid wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

One thing I never see mentioned are passives.

Since the Matriarch is often compared to BoL, I suggest people take a look at what passives Templars benefit from when casting BoL on one bar, and let's say Vampire's Bane on the other - or Blazing Spear ... See what I mean?

As for LoS issues, I'm sorry but Lol.
The best pets to LoS with are either Monster sets (available to everyone) like (not limited to) Maw of the Infernal, that spawn in your face, or the Storm Atro ult, the big thing that stays planted like a tree while doing a lot more damage than the Matriarch.
Even the Scamp is better for LoS, as its position is more predictable than the Matriarch, whose AI is set to follow the caster, which only makes it more or less useful for LoS when retreating.

I suggest to people who think it's so OP, to try to deliberately LoSing with the Matriarch only, and tell me how it goes. Hint: it's not as easy as it seems.

Another thing: be careful what you wish for.
Do you really want un-targetable pets? When you can just kill or simply CC the Matriarch and remove any healing capability a Pet sorc has (making it an easy kill afterwards) now?

Sorry, but all I see here are L2P issues, as usual.

Who wants untargetable pets? Just put in a true tab targeting system in the game. And get rid of the damage but make it one barrable.

Uh ohs, now all the LoSing carried pet sorcs just started sweating. A change that might actually make them have to use skill.

Compare twilight to the Necro archer. Look at the disparity between the two.

What the game needs is proper Death Recaps.

The Twilight zaps every 2 seconds (unlike other DoTs that tick usually every second), and yet I see Death Recaps with 3 zaps on them. That's a whole 6 seconds. 6 seconds.
Those Death Recaps are made by people who just stand there doing nothing but getting zapped - noob at best, hypocrite at worst.
And yes, I sometimes use the Matriarch on my Sorc in PvP. Only the Matriarch, no zoo. Well, sometimes the Storm Atro for area of denial and LoS needs.
But with only the Matriarch up, when I LoS, I do it the old fashion way: rocks, trees and other terrain obstacles because the Matriarch is never where I want it to be and I don't have time to waste trying to control it, simple as that.

Not to mention PvE. All (un-needed) changes in this thread will wreck the only PvE pet class the game has to offer.

The focus on the Matriarch is FOTM, there are many other pets in the game, just because the game could use a better targeting system, doesn't mean one particular pet needs nerfs in the way it works.

Nearly every DoT in the game ticks at 2s intervals, you genius.

Perhaps do the bare minimum of research the next time you feel the need to write a wall of drivel. Or play another class for once.

This is why it's hard to take the magsorc-main lobby seriously.

A lot of DoTs tick every second (or less, like Endless hail) Like Blazing Spears (and Nova) for Templars, DK Standard, Corrosive Armor, Eruption, Sorc's Lightning Form and Lightning Splash, NB Path of Darkness, Veil of Blades, Warden Sleet Storm, Impaling Shards, Destruction Staff has Elemental Storm, Wall of Elements, let's not forget about Caltrops that also tiiks every second and a lot of DoTs just deal X damage over Y seconds, which leaves us to find out if they tick every second or every 2 or whatever.
You should do some research about DoTs, otherwise, it will be hard to take the PvPer's "Nerf this and that crybabies" hard to take seriously.

Anyway, you missed the point: the Twilight zaps every 2 seconds and any Death Recap with 3 of them means (at least) 6 seconds of being zapped. So, either the Death Recaps are flawed (they don't show everything), or the player is a noob (sorry) or it's just a made up Death Recap (with a buddy, no real combat situation),

Emma_Overload

Delparis wrote: »

look at those damage in BG

Overpowered skill

LOL, how did you manage to get ZAPPED to death? What were you doing the whole time?

leepalmer95

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

look at those damage in BG

Overpowered skill

LOL, how did you manage to get ZAPPED to death? What were you doing the whole time?

To be fair they are baby numbers.

Most of the time it hits for like 3k+ and its a complete free 100% uptime dot.

Derra

TheYKcid wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

One thing I never see mentioned are passives.

Since the Matriarch is often compared to BoL, I suggest people take a look at what passives Templars benefit from when casting BoL on one bar, and let's say Vampire's Bane on the other - or Blazing Spear ... See what I mean?

As for LoS issues, I'm sorry but Lol.
The best pets to LoS with are either Monster sets (available to everyone) like (not limited to) Maw of the Infernal, that spawn in your face, or the Storm Atro ult, the big thing that stays planted like a tree while doing a lot more damage than the Matriarch.
Even the Scamp is better for LoS, as its position is more predictable than the Matriarch, whose AI is set to follow the caster, which only makes it more or less useful for LoS when retreating.

I suggest to people who think it's so OP, to try to deliberately LoSing with the Matriarch only, and tell me how it goes. Hint: it's not as easy as it seems.

Another thing: be careful what you wish for.
Do you really want un-targetable pets? When you can just kill or simply CC the Matriarch and remove any healing capability a Pet sorc has (making it an easy kill afterwards) now?

Sorry, but all I see here are L2P issues, as usual.

Who wants untargetable pets? Just put in a true tab targeting system in the game. And get rid of the damage but make it one barrable.

Uh ohs, now all the LoSing carried pet sorcs just started sweating. A change that might actually make them have to use skill.

Compare twilight to the Necro archer. Look at the disparity between the two.

What the game needs is proper Death Recaps.

The Twilight zaps every 2 seconds (unlike other DoTs that tick usually every second), and yet I see Death Recaps with 3 zaps on them. That's a whole 6 seconds. 6 seconds.
Those Death Recaps are made by people who just stand there doing nothing but getting zapped - noob at best, hypocrite at worst.
And yes, I sometimes use the Matriarch on my Sorc in PvP. Only the Matriarch, no zoo. Well, sometimes the Storm Atro for area of denial and LoS needs.
But with only the Matriarch up, when I LoS, I do it the old fashion way: rocks, trees and other terrain obstacles because the Matriarch is never where I want it to be and I don't have time to waste trying to control it, simple as that.

Not to mention PvE. All (un-needed) changes in this thread will wreck the only PvE pet class the game has to offer.

The focus on the Matriarch is FOTM, there are many other pets in the game, just because the game could use a better targeting system, doesn't mean one particular pet needs nerfs in the way it works.

Nearly every DoT in the game ticks at 2s intervals, you genius.

Perhaps do the bare minimum of research the next time you feel the need to write a wall of drivel. Or play another class for once.

This is why it's hard to take the magsorc-main lobby seriously.

He´s wrong purely on a factual level aswell - twilight zaps every 2.45s.

Derra

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

look at those damage in BG

Overpowered skill

LOL, how did you manage to get ZAPPED to death? What were you doing the whole time?

To be fair they are baby numbers.

Most of the time it hits for like 3k+ and its a complete free 100% uptime dot.

I think this is a somewhat biased view of it and getting 3k hits without petcurse (another ability) is very unlikely.
I´m getting the notion of having absolutely free dmg is problematic especially in noCP - and my proposal to solve that would be to give matriarch attacks a slight magica drain.

Otherwise it has several shortcomings to actual dots though:
It ´s ticks can be blocked.
It´s ticks can be dodged.
It can die.
You can´t multidot it.

I´m not writing this to defend pets - i´m writing it to complete the assessment on the ability because people often times conveniently forget it´s downsides.

I think several sorcs (sadly mostly the better ones) would trade the twilight for a burst heal (or a bursty on demand hot) and an actual dot ability. It´s just not available.


Imo the twilight would have to be untargetable and immortal to become balanceable at all. The pet having downtime due to being dead is a giant variable that is also not controllable by a developer as it entirely depends on the opponents the sorc is fighting.
This however makes it impossible to balance the pets dmg + healing numerically bc all of these numbers are modified by the theoretical uptime of the skill.
Does zos balance pets around 50% uptime? 100%? Something in between? Against 1 2 or 20 opponents that occasionally attack it?
It´s impossible to find the right balance for the skill in even half of these occasions.

Immortal and unattackable you put it at 100% uptime always - now it´s easy to determine the heal is way out of proportion and can be adjusted and the dmg can be tuned aswell (though i think it should rather cost than being drastically decreased).

The added benefit of pets being unattackable would obviously be the wonky targetting system no longer being exploitable.

ZonasArch

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

look at those damage in BG

Overpowered skill

LOL, how did you manage to get ZAPPED to death? What were you doing the whole time?

Probably they just stood there so they could create this stupid death recap. If you can't heal yourself for 1k per second, you're doing something too wrong and the twilight's are not the issue. 😂

requital

I think the best option remove from game Sorc... always everyone crying about this class... so just remove and no problems.... Or wait, maybe let Sorc use only 2 skill, in this option we will save class in game and will nerf it. Maybe then everyone will be happy..?

Emma_Overload

requital wrote: »

I think the best option remove from game Sorc... always everyone crying about this class... so just remove and no problems.... Or wait, maybe let Sorc use only 2 skill, in this option we will save class in game and will nerf it. Maybe then everyone will be happy..?

Maybe we should just have class-specific Cyrodiil campaigns, so we only have to fight other members of our class!

Mitaka211

Any other thread
Zos : We have noticed your feedback and we will look for a solution

Thread about the broken pet sorc class dominating since forever
Zos : Greetings, we've removed several baiting comments that contained personal insults. This is a reminder that comments need to remain constructive and civil. It is fine to disagree with each other, but name calling and baiting remarks only derail the thread. Thank you.

bol

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

look at those damage in BG

Overpowered skill

LOL, how did you manage to get ZAPPED to death? What were you doing the whole time?

I agree, this looks like a serious L2P issue. I really wonder what this sorc was doing? The pet attacks every 2.5seconds. so in 7.5seconds he managed to put endless fury on him and 1 (yes 1) light attack? in 7.5s ?!? that is some seriously low damage output, unless sorc was fighting other people while the pet kept attacking a different person (that would make sense, with the pet AI). But to die from all that pressure. I mean seriously? At least give some proper arguments.

But yes I do agree with the OP in some way. The matriarch is too good compared to tormentor. Or maybe the tormentor is too bad compared to the matriarch. They need to make the tormentor better compared to the matriarch.

Ozazz

hey how about giving us our healing ward back is that a little too much to ask seeing how they nerfed wards hmm, 3 times, hmm dark deal, hmm resto ult

Ozazz

now kids be like nooo you cant have a pet or a healing ward, JUST DIEEE SORCs DIEEEEEE!

Seraphayel

Ozazz wrote: »

now kids be like nooo you cant have a pet or a healing ward, JUST DIEEE SORCs DIEEEEEE!

Sorcs are by far the strongest Magicka class and MagSorcs the best or second best PvP class. So there’s that. Not like tuning Twilight down would kick them off their throne...

master_vanargand

I agree with your opinion.
Damage and Heal should be separated.
Sorc pets will exist forever unless it die.
So it's correct to use two slots.